Matchup Discussion #14 - Toon Link

What can we do against the boy that waves the windwaker? Discuss!

Also, here's a post I made a while on some tips to beat toon link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=253791&highlight=tips+to+beat+toon+link

Some of the stuff is a little outdated like the paragraph on Toon Link's dair but otherwise I'm sure you'll get something out of reading it if you're struggling in the Toon Link matchup.

Ah, the bane of my Falco existence. I based my Falco around this match up for a long long time, so I'm really good at it, all though lately I've been getting a bit roughed up, I feel I can speak on it pretty well.

Toon Link is a campy character, most of the time, if he can't beat you, he'll try to time you out. Needless to say, this can be an annoying match up, you have to campy characters doing what they do best.

That being said, How we should be camping:

We all know Falco's Horizontal camp is beast, so we abuse it, that's standard procedure. SHDL is (I think) more efficient in this match up than any other. TL will be jumping a lot to approach and lasers do quite well to stop him. SHL while he's on the ground though, don't let him find openings cause he can run at us quickly.

Our lasers stop his bombs and boomerangs which could be a big problem if not handled properly. His arrows I try to reflect, but one big problem I have is I spam reflector to much, only use this when you're sure he's bound to get hit by one of his own items.

On that note: Reflector, bombs and arrows, smart TL's will never throw straight boomerangs at you, angled boomerangs get deflected away and they run no risk, so this is a mind game. I do well against bombs, when they throw them up close. Arrows I reflect when I'm at the other side of the stage, although it can be done close up. The reflector is a very powerful tool but it depends more on your opponent's style than the match up itself.

Reflector doesn't work against Z-air though, and that is to me the most important aspect of dealing with a Toon Link. Zair is what always gets me, it's a quick move, it does decent damage and it sets up some stuff if we get caught by surprise. Shield it, or dodge it, but be very smart about it. Learning to deal with a TL's zair is gold, can change the match entirely. I powershield it all the time, but try to not follow up right after, since a second Zair could be likely so powershielding a second time is also likely. Remember TL's can Zair with a bomb in hand and use this for follow up, relfector can be a nice keep away option out of Zair, but be careful about spacing, good TL's will be out of jab, and F-tilt range.

Don't blindlessly rush after a Zair, nair can be used almost instantly and most Toon Link's I play against usually build it up as a reflex.

As a mentioned earlier, Toon Link's camp game is pretty sweet. However, it has both an advantage and disadvantage against us. Our horizontal camp is greater, but his vertical and diagonal camp hold a clear advantage. Always try to stay directly in front of the direction toon link is facing during the camp game, and don't let him get above you. If he does, be smart about how you'll chase him back into the ground. His Dair is a laggy move, but fast to hit and kill us. I personally wait for him to fall down and approach from the side with bair. Learning to catch his bombs helps when he's above, and simply running out from under them can make him come down when he notices the camp isn't working.

Once your both on the ground, ground combat is a little easier. As always, your jab is godly. It's faster than all of toon link's attacks and it's range is wider. Ftilt is great work for spacing when you want to go back to camping.
Our grab is faster and we can read his and spot dodge for free damage.

Toon Link can be easily chained grab and for max damage we need to walk grab. However the timing is a bit weird, so dash grabbing works just as well.

Beware his bair near the ground, it can combo up to 7 or 8 times if done correctly so this is probably the most dangerous move in his arsenal.

Also beware pivot grabs.

Upsmash will be his main kill move, though it is very easy to read. Side smash can be DI'd out (someone please post the direction xD).

Uptilt can lock us but it can also be DI'd out of (need direction for this too)

On a very general note, learn to powershield it could be the difference between winning and loosing.

Stages:

Vlade once told me YI's is best, and I'm gonna trust him on it cause he's good at edge guarding Toon Link, something I can't seem to do.

I'll take a toon link to any stage though, but the longer the better. PS1 is good for me, but you can't let him take the advantage to early on out. FD of course, SV is a bit harder to mess around with and you have to be slightly more careful. I personally like battlefield, but you gotta handle platforms well.

As far as banning, Toon Link's will probably take us to Lylat but I have never seen a problem with this. They will throw bombs from the air, we can catch and throw back. I have a bigger problem with Brinstar, but I guess it all depends on what stage your least comfortable playing in. Ban that one.

The main reason that Yoshi's Island is my favourite is the fact that Toon Link can't air bomb camp you as well because of the platform that covers over half of the stage. I just find it much easier to play against Toon Link there just because I don't have to think about that option toon link has as much.

Otherwise BF is a solid choice for the same reasons, assuming the toon link player bans FD like he should. I actually think FD isn't Falco's best stage in this matchup sometimes :S

All I do to edgeguard toon link is to grab the ledge, tap away from the edge and just bair. Toon Link's recovery is quite predictable and the only thing he really has that can stop you are bombs (again >_<). Toon Link tends to drop low and recover up with upb to take the ledge from you.

At about 1:25 in this vid (it's old I know ) is a good demonstration of how I edgeguard toon link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EWjqH4mxRM

I really don't know this match up well at all. But from my experience don't go for ko's just let it happen. If you can keep yourself from being hit and power shield all his junk, while inflicting % with lasers theres no point to doing much else. When he moves in, thats when you should ko. Don't chase him off stage or in the air unnecessarily and then get gimped when you had a 200% lead. (sad day T-T)

Vlade said:

The main reason that Yoshi's Island is my favourite is the fact that Toon Link can't air bomb camp you as well because of the platform that covers over half of the stage. I just find it much easier to play against Toon Link there just because I don't have to think about that option toon link has as much.

Otherwise BF is a solid choice for the same reasons, assuming the toon link player bans FD like he should. I actually think FD isn't Falco's best stage in this matchup sometimes :S

All I do to edgeguard toon link is to grab the ledge, tap away from the edge and just bair. Toon Link's recovery is quite predictable and the only thing he really has that can stop you are bombs (again >_<). Toon Link tends to drop low and recover up with upb to take the ledge from you.

At about 1:25 in this vid (it's old I know ) is a good demonstration of how I edgeguard toon link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EWjqH4mxRM

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I don't like FD much against TL either for some reason, I believe the long distance can be used to our disadvantage if a TL know's how and when to bait lasers.

Also, the way you play against TL is so similar to mine xD it scared me.

I agree with yoshi's being a great stage vs TL. The fact that there is only 1 platform height is amazing. Maybe halberd would be good as well.

Is there a way to deal with how his down smash lunges us towards the bottom edge?

Slain Avenger said:

Is there a way to deal with how his down smash lunges us towards the bottom edge?

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Quickly jump and phantasm, I guess. What else is there to do? Or you could do the easy thing and not get hit by it.

If im not mistaking the d-smash gimp only works at low %, less than 30. So yeah just run away and don't get hit by it at low % or near the edge.

And yeah Yoshi's Islands sucks for TL, our camping options are limited there, because of the platform and the size of the stage, also the shyguys usually tend to get in the way of our projectiles.

Well Twinkie covered a lot of what I was gonna say.

I'm no pro, but i've played MJG a few times. And he claims falco ***** tlink. I'll try and get him in here to explain why he says that. It's been a while since i've even played his toonlink cause he hates the MU so bad even tho im not great lol. I beleive he "puts his nikes on" (lol) and hardcore camps. And yes Yoshi's is a terrible counterpick imo because the dsmash gimp works 100% on the edges of the stage.

/namesearch mjg

Falco does **** Tlink, it's just that Tlink is a boring MU to most cause all the little kid does is throw stuff that isn't particularly hard to evade xD. I don't think Yoshi's is a terrible counterpick though. It's not my favorite, but I think that in most given situations, I'd rather go to any level but brinstar or norfair.

And for the down smash gimp to work you gotta be in a really specific position, so it's not that much of a hazard and you can still come back.

As far as bomb camping goes though, throwing bombs downward is not really gonna hurt Falco, it's as easy as roll dodging away. And If for some reason you need to go up and approach, catching a bomb with Nair is a breeze and doesn't leave Falco open for damage. Z catching also works. What I don't recommend it air dodge catching, that's just a call to get down aired.

To me, Yoshi's is a bad CP overall for falco for the fact that the platform will block lasers if angled at some ways..and the slanted ground messes with IAP alot, harder to get laser locks on too. Plus adding the dsmash gimp..just doesn't seem like a logical choice for a falco to CP to

I don't really like Yoshi's either but after watching how Vlade operates on it, it really doesn't seem to bad. He's the right guy to shed light on the subject though.

is there videos of this?

Again, Vlade's your guy xD. If he doesn't post one I'll probably end up looking but I can't right now.

I don't have any videos that I would consider recent of me playing on Yoshi's Island, sorry about that. But if you're really interested, this is the best I have http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sWliL1IXFI

Alzi isn't as good as Corpsecreate but he's a fairly competent toon link. I get away with a lot of stuff in that match so don't take it as a high level example of a Toon Link vs Falco match.

I just think it's the best stage because the main platform shuts down toon link's options to air camp. I've never really had a problem with the specific angles of the platform that blocks lasers, if Toon Link's on the platform then you should be pressuring him with aerials rather than lasers. I've also never been dsmash gimped in my experience either, it's a really situational gimp so if you're that worried about it just stay away from the edge at low %.

what are some good stages to take toon link besides yoshi?

FD and Battlefield. Smashville is 50/50 imo. NEVER Brinstar. RC is also leaning towards them. Umm, PS 1 is also good. Pictochat might work, but I still lean towards FD and Battlefield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoNIbdI8y_s

Only works on toon link, though it's quite situational since I'm fairly sure that toon link can escape the chaingrab if falco boost pivot grabs in the middle of it.

I can't namesearch sadly Ares or I would have been here sooner XD

I would put the MU at 60:40 (if the falco knows what he is doing) or 55:45.

TLs won't have a problem camping falco back for the most part and they definitely won't care about camping falco if they have a stock lead. Lasers won't kill and same with projectiles.

And also, I don't really hate the MU Ares but its not one that I enjoy playing.

@Slain Avenger: Do you even use any of those characters? You don't even seem to know what you are talking about...lol.
FD would lean heavily in falco's favor but the platforms on BF would help TL in this MU. Lylat and Brinstar are probably the best CP. In regards to getting the first kill in this MU, the same applies with game 1( I guess that is how it is for most match ups in brawl anyways)

Shugo is the one falco that I would not want to play ever (even though he sucks)

we out.












afk

Why can't you name search?

(post related)

My name is too short/too common.

~mjg~ said:

I can't namesearch sadly Ares or I would have been here sooner XD

I would put the MU at 60:40 (if the falco knows what he is doing) or 55:45.

TLs won't have a problem camping falco back for the most part and they definitely won't care about camping falco if they have a stock lead. Lasers won't kill and same with projectiles.

And also, I don't really hate the MU Ares but its not one that I enjoy playing.

@Slain Avenger: Do you even use any of those characters? You don't know seem to know what you are talking about...lol.
FD would lean heavily in falco's favor but the platforms on BF would help TL in this MU. Lylat and Brinstar are probably the best CP. In regards to getting the first kill in this MU, the same applies with game 1( I guess that is how it is for most match ups in brawl anyways)

Shugo is the one falco that I would not want to play ever (even though he sucks)

we out.



afk

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Well, I've played Falco for a very very very very very long time, and TL is my best match up. I've played twink a lot and have a winning record on that. No matter what he says though, I'll never think Lylat should be TL's main focus, it's easy to work against.

I never said FD was bad, but I rather have Battlefield, I love Battlefield against TL and the distance is great for Falco, great spacing, great placement.

Brinstar is the only definite CP besides RC. Also, please don't say I don't know what I'm talking about because I spammed a wall of text talking about the MU because I know it well, and no Falco has disagreed with me.

I agree with the 60:40 thing, if we had to give a ratio (though I'd just call it an advantage towards Falco, not really into the whole ratio thing). TL can definitely win, but Falco has a lot of things going for him. Camping him isn't gonna hurt too much, cause even if you CAN camp him and he sits there and take it, it won't mean you're getting much done. I've had people shower me with bombs in lylats for minutes and only hit me once or twice. You can roll dodge efficiently when getting camped vertically, horizontally, lazer deflects bombs and powershielding arrows is easy. Boomerang can be both powershielded and reflected with ease. It takes smart camping to hit falco, cause Falco's zone game is just that good.

Slain Avenger said:

Well, I've played Falco for a very very very very very long time, and TL is my best match up. I've played twink a lot and have a winning record on that. No matter what he says though, I'll never think Lylat should be TL's main focus, it's easy to work against.

Thats twink though

I never said FD was bad, but I rather have Battlefield, I love Battlefield against TL and the distance is great for Falco, great spacing, great placement.

I guess lol

Brinstar is the only definite CP besides RC. Also, please don't say I don't know what I'm talking about because I spammed a wall of text talking about the MU because I know it well, and no Falco has disagreed with me.

I said this because you make your post seem like you know a lot about the MU when you are only basing your MU experience off of ONE Toon Link main

I agree with the 60:40 thing, if we had to give a ratio (though I'd just call it an advantage towards Falco, not really into the whole ratio thing). TL can definitely win, but Falco has a lot of things going for him. Camping him isn't gonna hurt too much, cause even if you CAN camp him and he sits there and take it, it won't mean you're getting much done. I've had people shower me with bombs in lylats for minutes and only hit me once or twice. You can roll dodge efficiently when getting camped vertically, horizontally, lazer deflects bombs and powershielding arrows is easy. Boomerang can be both powershielded and reflected with ease. It takes smart camping to hit falco, cause Falco's zone game is just that good.

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k

Responses in bold

EDIT: Done with the MU. Just come **** all of the TLs please (to you falco mains).

Cya.

WE OUT!

Wait, MJG can you eleborate why its 60-40? You said pretty much that neither character will have trouble camping but not much outside of that asside from some stage stuffs.

So what moves do we have to watch out for from both characters and how long can we CG TL till what %?

~mjg~ said:

k

Responses in bold

EDIT: Done with the MU. Just come **** all of the TLs please (to you falco mains).

Cya.

WE OUT!

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It's not just one TL, I've played at least 4 different TL mains, sorry If I made it seem the way, I should have made it clearer :/ my bad.

@gamegenie

I'm not sure how many grabs we get, but the max amount have to be dash grabbed. And Falco's should watch out for Z-air, bair, up smash and down smash (at low percents, not sure when it stops being gimp deadly) Also, careful with angled boomerangs and well placed bombs. A lot of the time there camp won't hurt you, but you won't be able to hurt them.

At close range, jab jab jab XD

@ Choice

It's probably a range thing, excellent spacing means bad time for TL up close.

LOL mjg couldn't have made that post any more badass.

I know this mu pretty dang well. I think everyone already explained everything there is to know about it though, so i don't think I need to contribute anything =/.

Time him out. Or at least time him out if your facing kingtoon. Its what I did :3

TL will probably try to time you out, sad that TL's want to play like Sonic now a days :/.

M@v said:

Time him out. Or at least time him out if your facing kingtoon. Its what I did :3

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See this is what i hate. when scrubs talk lik they good. i felt bad for u so i let u win one match out of our set. I dsmashed u at 0 on delfino and u died. get better

They should have been doing that for a very long time. When you have the ability to jump very high in the air, have slightly better than average aerial mobility, and have disjointed hitboxes to cover your ascent and decent, you can stay very elusive.

I think the reason for attempted time outs is because racking up damage with projectiles is a really slow process. Espically since everyone does not want to get hit by anything or get placed in a bad position. When you start ending matches that are only 2 minutes away from time, the idea that an extra 2 minutes is not that long might sound appealing.

Vlade said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoNIbdI8y_s

Only works on toon link, though it's quite situational since I'm fairly sure that toon link can escape the chaingrab if falco boost pivot grabs in the middle of it.

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Not really. I did a lot of testing and somewhere posted the results. The general jest was that Dthrow as the ledge somehow reduces knockback of the Dthrow.

It does not have to be on Pictochat specifically either. I managed to do this against TL on battlefield as well. The knockback is not reduced as much as it is in Pictochat, but it is still reduced either way. Also, I agree with you about the CG. It seems that our boost pivot grab can be escaped through jumping.

Anyway, some of the other information I remember testing was pikachu, king DDD, and TL. All of them suffer from reduced knockback on the ledge from Dthrow on pretty much any flat stage ledge. Platforms, edges, etc. I believe it worked on G&W, but it was only on pictochat that this worked. Pikachu and TL I think are far to situational to really remember. However, DDD was worth remembering since we can BPG him for sure. The question comes about that is doing this better than say a normal CG -> spike -> edgeguard.

The only thing would need DI to see if that can escape the Dthrow's reduced knockback. A few people said that they sometimes, and sometimes could not get it to work always.

I would say this MU is about even. I really hate it.

I learned it alot after playing DEHF alot during the Apex weekend. The pace of the game is usually set during the first stock. its annoying for both parties and i think the MU is heavily based on who gets the 1st kill.

IMO theres the Falco-Toon Link MU, then theres the Falco-Kingtoon MU. My general plan when facing TL is to get the walking chain grab to dair>tech chase, and to powershield his projectiles while using side b to keep my distance. Kingtoon, however, has these pivot grabs that seem to always land, and hes good at pressuring with projectiles. So IMO, the two most important things to watch for vsing TL is to make sure you powershield his projectiles and to not get caught up in hookshot shenanigans.

Xeylode said:

They should have been doing that for a very long time. When you have the ability to jump very high in the air, have slightly better than average aerial mobility, and have disjointed hitboxes to cover your ascent and decent, you can stay very elusive.

I think the reason for attempted time outs is because racking up damage with projectiles is a really slow process. Espically since everyone does not want to get hit by anything or get placed in a bad position. When you start ending matches that are only 2 minutes away from time, the idea that an extra 2 minutes is not that long might sound appealing.



Not really. I did a lot of testing and somewhere posted the results. The general jest was that Dthrow as the ledge somehow reduces knockback of the Dthrow.

It does not have to be on Pictochat specifically either. I managed to do this against TL on battlefield as well. The knockback is not reduced as much as it is in Pictochat, but it is still reduced either way. Also, I agree with you about the CG. It seems that our boost pivot grab can be escaped through jumping.

Anyway, some of the other information I remember testing was pikachu, king DDD, and TL. All of them suffer from reduced knockback on the ledge from Dthrow on pretty much any flat stage ledge. Platforms, edges, etc. I believe it worked on G&W, but it was only on pictochat that this worked. Pikachu and TL I think are far to situational to really remember. However, DDD was worth remembering since we can BPG him for sure. The question comes about that is doing this better than say a normal CG -> spike -> edgeguard.

The only thing would need DI to see if that can escape the Dthrow's reduced knockback. A few people said that they sometimes, and sometimes could not get it to work always.

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I remember now, it's been a while since I discovered this (yeah I'm claiming it ) and I recall the 'splat' working on diddy and pikachu too (though it might only be on platforms, can't remember). I know it doesn't only work on pictochat but I'm pretty sure that pictochat is the only stage which you can do a full laserlock on; splatting on any other stage only results in one laser and you can't continue the laserlock because toon link is on his back or something. I can't remember the exact details of why you only get one laser but I know for sure that you can't laserlock unless you're on pictochat due to the slanted edges which means the laser is aiming at the ground height.

Back to Toon Link matchup discussion

I agree with KT on the fact that the pace of the match up depends a lot on that first stock, but I think it's a bit towards Falco's favor, not too much, but a bit.