Toon Link's Ledge Options.

This topic was eventually going to be discussed in the guide, but if people were going to discuss it here anyway, it'll help get the guide done quicker as I can just use this thread to get everyone's input. So if this thread actually kicks off, I won't have to ask for input through my thread and this will act as the guide's discussion. Which means that any posts I use from here will go towards credit in the guide.

More towards the point of this thread, I've known about this problem for quite some time now and I've worked on my own ledge game since then, first by thiniking of new tactics and then by applying them in friendlies. I feel a lot more confident now in saying that it's no longer a problem for me. My current tactics are a bit strange though and I honestly don't feel like they would be accepted with much enthusiasm. It's not a specific tactic exactly, it's more that I make use of extra options on the ledge that seem like a bad idea. I may let you in on them later, but you really have to have an open mind about it.

I can't believe this hasn't started yet.

Toon's ledge options.... where to begin...

If I'm returning on stage I will generally use the ledge hop or the double jump back on stage. These are mixed up with attacks or airdodges. Toon's other options such as doing a ledge attack, returning with a bomb, rolling etc, all involve actually returning to the stage. But this is only half the story. Has anyone ever considered simply not returning to stage as a legitimate option? You see, if one of your mix ups is not going on stage, then the options that involve actually getting on stage will become less predictable and will work more often. This isn't just theory craft, this actually works for me.

So what do I mean by not going on stage? One option that will no doubt come to mind for most of you will be the re-tether. This option imo, doesn't seem to be as effective simply because it's over quite quickly and you only have three of them. This is because essentially, what you're trying to do when you use the options that don't go on stage is either bait a response or get them off their guard for when you do actually return to stage. Other options that might come to mind are pulling out a bomb then going back on the ledge or hitting away from the edge throwing a boomerang then returning to the edge. Again, these options aren't that great because it makes you vulnerable because when you're bomb pulling or boomerang throwing, you are left with no options and a lot of lag. So what else could I be suggesting? It's simple, a little too simple. You hit away from the edge when you still have invincibility, drop for a bit doing nothing, then at the right time, you double jump back towards the lip of the stage and auto snap on to the ledge from the maximum distance below the ledge. I know right? But just hear me out.

The reason why this works is because it leaves you with many more options compared to the bomb pull or rang toss for example and it's the perfect bait. Not only that, but it's surprisingly safe if you space it correctly. Opponents won't be able to hit you from the stage even if they are right on the edge. You'd be surprised how far away from the edge you can be and still snap on. Now I know what you're thinking, but this idea is just begging for a stage spike or any other type of spike for that matter. Exactly. People are more than likely to try and go off stage and hit you somehow. So what's the plan? If you do try this too many times and they do fall for the bait, you can double jump early quite easily on reaction and airdodge on-stage. Or, you can double jump U-air them, keeping in mind that our U-air beats almost every Dair in the game (except for like Lucario and on some angles Link). Or, you can double jump and stall the timing of your recovery with a tether (depending on the character, this has worked for me). They edgehog? Uair will beat it. They wait for you to double jump then try to hit you? Uair will still work or you can airdodge the attack (to tether) or you can stop your double jump with the tether. It's not actually that hard. Now I'm not suggesting that you tempt fate every time and simply wait for them to respond, that's where the other side of it comes in. Not returning not only baits responses, but it also puts them off their guard for any other options. If you've done one or two of these, an attack is more likely to hit them and a ledgehop is more likely to not be punished.

If you can bait a response, Toon has the tools to turn the situation around and you'll find yourself doing the edge guarding. If you throw in one of these every now and then and they don't take the bait, your other options are more likely to work and you'll get back on stage just fine.

I can't explain everything and there's no doubt in my mind that I've missed something (try to fill in the obvious gaps for yourselves), but if there are any questions, just ask. Give it a go in some friendlies, if it doesn't work for you, then don't use it. It works for me, that's all I'm saying. You've heard it before, don't be predictable, and that goes for this too. Use every option you have even if it means not going back on stage.

Maybe others will have better ideas. If you think you do, please share.

I hadn't gone on swf between those posts and nothing had been said still. It's just not how things used to be.

Yeah, I didn't mention it before, but before I was stuffing around with those options (revolving around just stalling with an empty double jump), one thing I tried was baiting responses with the tether by just hanging there, and when they react either snapping to the edge or hitting down then double jumping to whatever. Bad idea. It just doesn't work that well in practise. You might get it to work once (especially if you use the hitting down option) but it just seemed to get punished too much. That's where I started developing the new stalling/baiting tactic.

@~mjg~: You actually bring up a good point about the ledge grab limit. Because in Aus we don't really have a stalling on the edge problem (not as many MK's for example), I've never seen the rule enforced (not to say that it doesn't happen, but the odds are, many people have gotten away with too many ledge grabs by now without knowing because it just isn't checked). I actually don't know how many ledge grabs I do a match using this tactic. Next time I play I'll check the ledge grab count and if it's over I'll have to re-think things a bit. I honestly doubt it'd be over though, just because it takes a long time to float down then jump back, I mean, compare three of them to three re-tethers in a row. But yeah, I can see that you'd have a big issue with Toon's ledge options if you feel rushed. That'll get punished hard almost every time.
Tell us about these ledge options you came up with. I'm intrigued now.

Can I just say, I'm impressed. People read that long post? Maybe I should post more often...

Sol Diviner said:

I suppose depending on the ledge, like Yoshi's Island, or Frigate, another option one has is to drop down slightly, wall jump, and proceed to harass with Bair. Or you can semi-stall with wall jumps, though be wary that excessive abuse with this is easily punished. Just a thought.

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From my own experience, this option is quite risky and I usually try to avoid it. I'm not saying don't use it at all, I've already said previously to try and use all options (just use the worse ones much less often of course). Sometimes like on the right side of picto it just does it anyway if you forget about it, like I always do... I hate it when that happens.
But yeah, it's like a ledge jump, so you keep your double jump, only you no longer have tether as an option cause you're facing the wrong way.
I will say this though, it definitely has potential to be a great option (you've gotta love Bair), it just has to be used properly, which may be where I'm going wrong for all I know. Does anyone use the wall jump option frequently? If so let's hear your thoughts on it.
Oh and I almost forgot, wall jumps can be used on many more stages than previously mentioned like BF, only you won't have your double jump. Just think Instant Wall Jump AT.