Match Up Thread Export - Zelda

This thread will be used to help keep match up discussion clean and concise. This series of threads will all be linked to the compendium.

With that said, this thread is dedicated to the Jigglypuff/Zelda match up. Let the discussion commence!

Match Up Summary​

Stage Picks and Bans​

Final Word​

Zelda's Frame Data- http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290399
The Zelda Match Up Thread - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267986

This match up is one of my personal favourites to play as either character. This match is down to who can grab the lead early on and KEEP it. Zelda has a bunch of tools in her arsenal that are perfect for dealing with characters who like to weave in and out. Zelda's fsmash, while quite easy to SDI is a very good option to keep Jiggs from getting in. It has really nice priority, comes out fast and if all of it's sparks connect it will do a fair amount of damage. Zelda covers all angles really well and she will normally space herself away from an edge in the case that she gets gimped or is put into a bad position. Obviously from what I've said, we can establish that Zelda has a beautiful ground game. It's all around quite well built, having a really nice dash attack, fastest down smash in the game, quick smashes in general and a superb tilt game, having a kill set up in down tilt to up tilt.

So how do we get past this wall you ask? Simple. Zelda can't approach. She has this ground game that is superb but an approach that isn't even speakable. She has three approach options which are hardly even worth mentioning. Dash attack, nair and airdodging towards the opponent (lol). Luckily for us, Zelda cannot camp to save her life. If she throws out a dins, get in on her. Nair beats out dins so just weave in and out with nairs and fairs to get in some damage on her. Once you've weaved in and managed to get her into the air. She's done. Her air game is AWFUL. Fair and Bair have tiny sweetspots which you should be able to dodge with ease, when they are sour spotted you can probably punish them. Dair like fair and bair has a small sweet spot, that being said however, it can be LETHAL if you're off stage when it lands. Being the third strongest spike in terms of knockback growth, it's best you be careful when going for the gimp on Zelda, try to stay to her sides because she also has uair in her arsenal. This move, whilst not incredibly stellar in it's hitbox, is a MONSTROUS kill move. If you get hit by this move at about 70 from an average altitude, you are not living. Go and see this for yourselfs.

Pound in this matchup works well when she throws out smashes, because the trade will be in your favor everytime AND she will always become airborne, this is where we have to get her. Obviously once she's in the air, juggle her around, making sure you weave away from her aerials when she throws them out. Most of the time, Zelda will fast fall to make it back to the ground as fast as possible. Airdodging when she can. Bait her airdodges and punish them with fairs/pounds/nairs/bairs etc.

Now onto Zelda's OoS options. She has nair OoS which will catch and punish your attempts to attack her shield. She obviously has usmash OoS which is lethal if not SDIed but overall her OoS game is not very stellar, so just space yourself well on her shield, grab her when you get the opportunity and you're in for some free %.

If Zelda has gotten the lead on you for whatever reason, you have something to fear. Zelda no longer has to approach, she can smash, tilt and punish you. She literally becomes a somewhat "OK" character, loosing the biggest cripple to her character. You will have to be patient here. Zelda is not very good at timing you out so don't worry about that for now, instead start spacing your aerials. Weave in and out when she throws out tilts and smashes, wait for an opportunity and punish accordingly.

If you got the percentage lead first, you have a few options here. The obvious one being to run the clock, seeing as Zelda can't do much to stop this. Or you have option two, get Zelda offstage. If you feel a bit worried that Zelda will get the lead back, you have to apply the pressure here. A good Zelda will be watching the clock against a Jiggs, making she sure can grab the lead. Get Zelda offstage asap. You can gimp her, punish her or do whatever you want to her offstage. Once Zelda is offstage, there is NO reason she should get back. When Zelda uses Fayore's Wind (Up B), when she goes green, you can still hit her, and this will cancel her teleport.

Zelda's arsenal of kill moves look like this: Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair (Offstage), Usmash, Fsmash, Dsmash, Ftilt, Utilt. Yeah. That's alot of kill moves. Dsmash is mainly used for gtfo options, the same applies to the other smashes as well, so it's really just her tilts, set ups and aerials that are going to get you killed. You should be able to avoid these quite easily but should you get hit by one of them, living past 90 is hopeful.

Stages

Now for the stages. You want to start by banning Battlefield. It should be known to everyone by now that platforms help people to approach, this is no different for Zelda. She can punish people on those platforms, set up kills better on the platforms and just generally control this stage FAR better then Jiggs can. Zelda also does well on Battlefield and Castle Siege, but Battlefield is your top priority for banning.

Now for Jiggs. She can take Zelda to FD, RC and Pictochat as her main counterpicks. RC is a bit debatable though. Whilst Jiggs does amazingly there, the boundaries on some parts really make it easy for Zelda to get REALLY early kills on you, I'm talking 50~.

Final Word

This matchup is, as I said before, a battle of who can grab and maintain the lead. Zelda's ground game stunts your approaches whilst your air game stunts her approach(es). Zelda will be killing you far earlier then you kill her, but you should be getting a lead on her much quicker and much easier.

That was quite a hefty write-up Mr. Jawz. I agree with most of what you said. I used to think Zelda beat Jiggs bad until I realized how beastly her baiting game is.

I actually like using jab to keep jiggs out more than fsmash to be honest since it's not as punishable on whiff.

I don't like how Jiggs destroys Zelda offstage. If Puffs aerials had a lot of knockback then it wouldn't be so bad....but his aerials chain together offstage which is incredibly frustrating. I pretty much have to just take like 3 or 4 fairs and save my double jump so I don't get gimped.

I also dislike how hard it is to actually kill Jiggs. You shouldn't die to usmash or fsmash at all if you know how to correctly DI them and honestly anything else really shouldn't be hitting you.

Stupid Jiggs

I kinda like this match up tbh, both have good tools vs eachother which makes it fun.

As jiggs:

alot of fake approaches here, i'm serious, empty shorthops and stuff. Since alot of her moves have decent ending lag you can bait an attack by pretending you're approaching and then punish her fsmash/dsmash or w.e.
Get her in air and get her offstage it's her our best tool against her, if jiggs can get her offstage it's pretty much zelda losing a stock here.

Watch out for random fairs/bairs lol.

I recommend avoiding platform stages such as bf yi.

Din's fire shouldn't be to big of a problem.

It's kinda whoever gets the lead here wins.

Strike bf/yi
Ban: (luigi's mansion) bf/castle siege
Cp:rc/delfino/lylat
(Lylat makes it harder for zelda to recover)

If you're good with rest you could try for halberd since it kills her at like 60 there, i don't recommend it though cause she kills you very early there also

Imma go with neutral or smal advantage

Edit: zelda is easyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to time-out

Exegguter said:

Imma go with 50/50

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Let's try not to throw out ratios this time. I'm curious as to how it'll work to just describe a match up with "Advantage, Neutral, Disadvantage", or any other variant of those words.

I think this matchup is neutral.

Approaching is terrible for Zelda in this matchup, but it's also terrible for jigglypuff.

Jiggs can combo Zelda better and rack up damage using her aerials, but Zelda has powerful enough kill moves that it evens out.

Din's shouldn't be a problem for jigglypuff except for some occasional off-stage harassment.

What I personally try to do on occasion is make trades. Trading a lightning kick for a jiggly bair is well worth it. Just keep on eye on any of jigg's patterns and react accordingly, doing this could give you that early lead you need.

Jiggs can do the same but with gimps... So overall I do think this matchup is even.

Jigglypuff is a wayy better **** then Zelda IMO

I'd say this MU is neutral and I agree a lot with KillerJaws's write-up. This is a MU I've played quite a few times, so I have some experience in it. I don't claim this to be universal to every Jpuff; like how some think Rollout is useless. I'm just giving my take on it and giving some advice.

Zelda can kill Jiggly ridiculously early, but Jiggs can also gimp Zelda and Rollout can be viable against Zelda as she can't land safely. Whatever you do, watch out for utilt, (sweetspotted) fair, and bair. They seem to be Zelda's strongest killing moves, not to mention the aerials come out quick, which KO Jiggs around the late 60's. Fortunately the sweetspots/lightning kicks can be hard to land. If they miss there is some significant ending lag you can punish, and in general Jiggly beats Zelda in the air.

Din's Fire is a move Jigglypuff can easily overcome. Instead of using airdodge, you can use most of your aerials and pound to out-priotize it, so you can move forward with the attack and punish them for it. If they are using it from a farther distance, use an aerial Rollout. Rollout completely beats it in the air and you get free hit; however if you're using a grounded Rollout they will clank. Zelda's recovery is kinda bad, and you should take advantage to gimp them as fast as possible. If you think you won't make it before they warp, go to where you think they'll go to and punish from there.

Faroe's Wind (The teleport move) can have its ending lag cancelled off ledges so beware of when they try to lightning kick you out of that. They may use it when you're recovering even from the middle of the stage so always be on the look out. Zelda's nair can set up some nasty situatuions if you're not careful because of the low trajectory and randomness. Dthrow also sets up a low trajectory which can be tricky. Dtilt, stuns you and you can't really do anything except mash shield or whatever you use to escape. It has a high rate of tripping so watch out for that. At around 60%, Jiggs gets popped out of it which they may try to follow up with. Lastly, when above them be wary of uair which has startup but very powerful.

I pretty much agree w/ what everyone else has said here already lol

but, what does anyone think of FO and Norfair as cp stages?

JigglyZelda003 said:

I pretty much agree w/ what everyone else has said here already lol

but, what does anyone think of FO and Norfair as cp stages?

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Before I give my opinoin, I would like to give my opinion on the matchup. I haven't had enough experience to give a breakdown, but I've had enough to give an opinion. With the Zelda's I've played, they used Side B when they're far away and B when you are trying to approach. The Side b can be negated by Pound, Fair, and Nair, so that's not an issue. A good Zelda can bait a ground move to have some lag and as soon as you approach, they can hit a B and stop your attacks.

As how to approach Zelda, I've always did a Bair wall and see what she does so I can figure out a pattern or how they play. The main goal in this matchup is to get her up in the air. I have always done an air dodge to the other side of her and jump back and forth to bait a move, then punish accordingly. Another method I've done is to approach at an angle. The problem, however, is her upsmash can catch. When she's taken off stage, watch out for UAir and a timed Bair or Fair. Other than that, I'd say approach her in the air and have her think you're going to attack. Nice Mindgame on your part :D. Just keep your Fair fresh because that would be the main killing move in the matchup.

tl:dr- Get her in the air and she's done

To answer the quote: I think this is excellent towards Jiggs. There's not much to it. I don't think Zelda could do well on these stages. Norfair might be okay for her due to her ground move + lava + UAair.

SoulPech said:

As how to approach Zelda, I've always did a Bair wall and see what she does so I can figure out a pattern or how they play. The main goal in this matchup is to get her up in the air.

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its actually alot of fun just to sit right outside her range and bait her lol. i think im becoming more focused on poke until i get a lead to force her to move than getting her in the air first.

To answer the quote: I think this is excellent towards Jiggs. There's not much to it. I don't think Zelda could do well on these stages. Norfair might be okay for her due to her ground move + lava + UAair.

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i asked cause im actually quite comfortable on FO as Zelda, the first form lacking an edge aside, i think it depends on if the Zelda player is comfortable there. the flip section also has that dip that if Zelda gets into and has a lead its even harder to approach her.


other than the bottom platform of norfair i don't think Zelda can do much else there, her blindspot below her is always wide open to assult.

with Norfair, I try to hit/throw them into the lava. When they bounce back, I just fair them, wait for them to bounce back, then fair the again. It's like a game of racketball lol.

Why are we discussing a matchup between 2 character who both lack actually good players who would evolve their metagames. Really pointless.

Discuss DK pl0x

I fail to see how Riot/DM don't evolve Zelda's metagame...

Never heard of those. Zelda nor Puff have players like Ganon and Link have or Samus too. And no one probably even knows this MU anyways.

Well I do, so please don't make assumptions like that. Don't discredit other players when you're out of the loop.

Yeah whatever, but we could use the little we have to discuss something actually useful instead of like the least popular and the most crappy character in the game, not counting the ditto.

-LzR- said:

Why are we discussing a matchup between 2 character who both lack actually good players who would evolve their metagames. Really pointless.

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So Jp players don't get ***** by random Cstick Zeldas

They still do cuz Puff sucks no results she is the worst in the game hurr durr, regards 95% of smashers.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

revival.

So...what else is there to discuss?

more stage discussion? the fist page gives a really good break down so idk what else there could be to discuss about

I don't think noob's up for it, but i'd like to actually be able to read a summary of the MU, and what stages to go to, instead of searching through every post.
Idk when he'll be on though.

Is there a MU ratio given?

This matchup is the low tier version of metaknight vs snake. As Zelda, I want to keep me and my dress on the ground. If jiggs gets me airbone, I pretty much hate life.

I don't think there was a MU number given, although alot of people called even.

M@v said:

This matchup is the low tier version of metaknight vs snake. As Zelda, I want to keep me and my dress on the ground. If jiggs gets me airbone, I pretty much hate life.

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lol. unfortunately low tier Snake can't drop a grenade to break Air pressure, only Air Dodge or lol Dair

I think it's even as well.

Should we just move on to the next one?

Even. Let's get going onward to Link. It annoys me we're now considered worse than him. >.>

Puff boards ftw! We are working from bottom to top.

I'm all for moving to Link theres not much more to say about Zelda

I'd put it as our advantage, rather than even. It just has a steep learning curve, we still have better options overall.