Match up Explore - Snake

Well ya bunch of Bozos! Its about time we get the MU discussions growing, again i shall host you with another MU for us to Discuss.

This time for you lazy bums, i give you....


50/50 Even
(even though i think it should really be 45 - 55 snakes favor)

- MU mentality - (from DK cheat sheet)

- Ground Pound lots.
- You can Sheild Grab his landing after he Cyphers, or SA Africa Punch him if you have one stocked (probably the better option).
- If he is recovering below the stage, Dair spike him; the Cypher will all ways pop you back up so you can recover, no matter how low it is. If you happen to miss, you can do it again!


- Good stages for DK -

- Battlefield
- Rainbow cruise
- Jungle *****
- Delfino plaza
- Brinstar

- Neutral Stages for DK -

- Smashville
- Lylat (even though explosives are hard to see here, but the edge can help you get no laggers... its got some pros and cons.)
- Picto chat
- Castle siege
- Pokemon stadium

- Stages to Avoid VS snake - (BAD)
- Frigate
- Halberd
- Final destination



Very Important TIPs for Success vs Snake


With the great help of Wilmenz (pro Snake), I am widely knowledged on this MU, ive lived every situation VS snake, and these tips will surely help.

I also must quote a few things about the MU mentality on the Cheat sheet.


First of all lets start by recognizing our opponent, he spams grenades, has huge hitboxes and can kill fast. Luckly we are Fat and we are able to live long against him.

- Once we start the Match, our main Key must and always will be, Get snake off the platform or get him in the Air. No fancy chaingrabs, no **** without thinking it first.

- Approaching snake can be annoying at first cause mainly, you cant attack directly, and spacing can also be a problem due to grenade shielding. But worry not, we have Down B, this attack will get Snake air borne almost everytime, but remember to SPACE it! if you DownB like a moron next to snake, he can and will shield + punish. You will either blow up by the Nades or get punished with Ftilt (PAM! PAM!).
Once you connect DownB, this is your chance to approach and read snake, for his options are limited when falling and if he jumps hes in risk of being juggled.

- Once we got snake airborne we must now do as much % as possible, juggle him carefully, shield his Aerials, Pivot grab or punish his dodges and CARGO him up, or simply throw out of stage. DK can Bair snake "wall of pain" to a decent 50%+ damage, and if the snake is not smart and doesnt escape, you can take a stock by finishing the "Wall of pain" with a Spike.

NOTE: now that i mentioned spiking, it is really easy on Snake, but dont go for the Spike always, its a great risk and not every snake lets himself get Spiked, some snakes let go of the Ceiphers (how ever the **** you spell it) and trick you to go for the spike, they control B reversals and can be unpredictable when coming back up stage. And if you miss you WILL lose a stock, this is a let the controller go situation. BUT of course if hes using the CyFFer (pro spelling) close to the stage coming form below, a Spike is always a good idea.

PRO TIP: When ever you spike a snake on low % and take the stock, look at your opponent with a MANLY face and while he complains with himself give him the "HOW DOES IT FEEL?" face. epic.

- Killing Snake is not that difficult, we got many moves at hand, Dsmash, Punch, etc.
Now we must be patient and use all our mindgamez and tricks up our sleeves to land the hits.

> Africa punch is decent enough, and the SA frames are really really help full, use this attack whe u have snake cornered or whe hes falling, hes to easy to predict.

> 9 Wind gets a clean fresh kill if snake is above 70%, it can KO him at 60% if on an edge or with bad DI.

> Use Dsmash to punish snakes Rolls, dodges, airdodges, Shielding his attacks, get ups on stage, go for the KO!


- When snake is grabbing on the edge and attempts to get up..... Wilmenz said:

"Dsmash covers all options that aren't GUA"

Words from a pro snake, we just need a little Dsmash, but carefull when snake gets up with an Attack, you can simply look at his animations and notice theyre different, shield to Dsmash.

NOTE: when snake does a Normal stand up when hes under and over the 100%, snake has only 4 FRAMES of vulnerability before he stands up on the stage, time your **** right, aim for grabs or simply Down B on them!!

- We will sometimes find moments were we feel under pressure with snake, when he spaces Ftilt, Dair Oos, or even having trouble with grenades. Our shield sucks, dont let yourself get carried away by shielding a few of his attacks, almost always you will get hit. Shield his Nair isnt safe, neither his Dair, even his Ftilt, which he can keep throwing until ur shield is worth nothing. You can punish his Ftilt after Shielding it with your own tilts, but always careful!
If youre shielding and you dont think ull handle, roll away, jump, or run out of there, Dodging will get you hurt if you are close.

- Snake cant really gimp you, so youre almost safe out of the stage, unless your opponent jumps of with a FAIR AND SPIKES THE **** OUT OF YOU!! in such a case.. i would shake hands with the snake and go home and cry.

- You have a huge variety of attacks in your dispossal... The key is to use em wisely and dont forget the main ideas.

Ok bozos! its your turn to post anything i missed!

- Matches -

William (DK) VS Alu (snake)

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxuzcqON6G4&feature=related

(this snake was bad as ****... i didnt even have to play him right.. but watch anyway)


Il be posting more fights soon.



-William

Don't Bair like a moron to get Ftilted

10pampams

PAM! PAM! is our enemy! watch out for it.

My friend actually mains Snake, and I've fought him several times, and although I'm not really a pro, I think the MU is 45:55 In Snake's favor, as you said. I feel like the main concern in this matchup is getting in close to him, which is a pain in the *** when you factor in grenades and his super annoying DACUS. Once you're in close(and this doesn't mean in his face) you proceed to get him in the air, when you do get in close avoid being grabbed, a good Snake can tech-chase you miserably if you aren't careful. Also, and this may just be a preference of mine, forward B also works wonders in this matchup for crossups and general shielding breaking, as per usual. If a Snake uses C4 on the Stage, get him off as soon as possible, this is probably your best chance for spikes/gimps.

Africa Punch Grenades to get rid of them and to be really flashy in general. (No this isn't serious)

Overall, everything you said wwwilliam is pretty much spot on. DownB is definitely great in this MU as well as uthrow/fthrow>fthrow or uthrow. Snake + Air = Damage.

Isn't Snake actually good in RC? I don't think you should go against Snakes there.

on the ship, id say its even. after ship on the moving parts DK has advantage, on the top part, snake u-tilt too good

i am also gonna say that snake has advantage on Lylat, grenades and C4 really hard to see

Isn't Battlefield better for Snake than us?

Also, I've found that run up>Ground Pound is godlike in this MU.

MechWarriorNY said:

Isn't Battlefield better for Snake than us?

Also, I've found that run up>Ground Pound is godlike in this MU.

Click to expand...

I think what makes Battlefield a good stage for Snake is his ability to control a good portion of it with his grenades/C4s/landmines

I myself wouldn't mind fighting Snake on Battlefield, but I'd much rather play him on Rainbow Cruise.

But yeah, some general info on DK Vs. Snake would be good, y'all picked like the perfect time, because DK is my Snake character (I hate fighting him as G&W) and there's a (small) tourney tomorrow, and Takeover should be there, and my friend plays Snake, and who knows, there might even be more Snakes who I despise, probably even more than MK.

Battlefield is like a neutral stage, Snake can take advantage of the platforms pytting bombs and all sort of crap on them, but once snake is in the Air the Platforms Ruin him, this is where snake gets the most % thats why Battlefield is good for us, Avoid bombs, and get him UP.

For you YarsRevengerson: Lets hope you do good on the tourney, here are a few tips.

- Remember to follow the basics, dont let tourney pressure change the play style you need for this MU.

- Never fall dodging on a snake, this includes: Jumping from the edge to dodge, or when your above him dodging. This will get you hurt allot. Do it if its your last resource, jump away from mix, mix your landings with SideB and such!

- When snake is in the Air try short hopping pointlessly, the snake might think youre going for an attack and dodge, punish that dodge, use your mindgamez!!

- Throw back grenades with R+A or L+A which ever u desire.

- When being tech chased with snakes Dthrow, dont get read! Vary your ways of getting up, if theres a grenade close ROLL to the grenade! (snakes sometimes leave grenades in order to follow you in the other direction)

Thats pretty much the very very Basic. Just dont get nervous and think your moves before performing them. ^_^

A smart snake will NEVER get spiked after a cargo dthrow.
they can either jump back to be safe or even jump forward and immediately fair and spike us :O
(I´m sure they can do that if we try to fair, no sure about dair).

Everything else is covored: DownB, a lot of grabs (bc of nades) and punch ;-)

well dacus is so fast that you would have to read it and freaking frame perfect the pivot grab, but down b, punch, tilts, smashes beat out dacus.

I'll just ask my friend to DACUS at me and will get a replay up with results eventually.

Its not difficult to predict it, but its hard to pivot grab it.... really DownB, and your tilts are much more effective.

Shield the DACUS to a DownB or Ftilt. Simple as that.

I seriously think this match-up is our favor, 55:45 of course.

What CG said, don't go battlefield. Going battlefield forces you to approach however the Snake wants you, and that's bad. Rainbow Cruise is definitely great for us if you know how to play it. The boat part should be our advantage, Snake is forced to take the high ground(left side) vs us, unless he wants to risk wall shenanigans, and we're good fighting up-hill (our down-b gets more range, b-air becomes much safer). 2nd part is obvious, and yeah I'd just stay as safe as possible on the 3rd part. Something you have to consider, it's a lot harder to run away as Snake than it is as DK. We get to choose what happens here. We're not forced to confront Snake there unless he's willing to put himself in a worse position. Norfair is also a good option if available for similar reasons. PS2 is good, we deal with it better than he does, makes him play more predictably.

Actually, that applies in general. We're allowed to stay away from Snake if we want to. Grenades are easy to deal with when they have to be thrown all the way across stage and even more so if you have platforms to work with. Go charge a punch if you want. Don't rush things like landing. Don't land near Snake, you'll just get grabbed or f-tilted which sucks. Landing next to Snake and being too aggro when you don't need to be is how damage happens and your 90% lead becomes a 30% lead, then you get u-tilted or something stupid. Oh and don't be afraid to roll away either. Gets you out of bad situations and it's a lot better than spot-dodge, you're not going to be beating Snake in close combat while he's on his feet. Obviously, for all of this, you need to remember where the C4 is placed so he doesn't catch you while you're retreating. Should be doing that, anyways.

Down-b him when he's committed to doing something (holding a grenade in hand, looking for u-tilt, looking for shield + f-tilt of your attack, doing an obvious landing). Forces him into either his shield or the air(presumably, he got hit). Grabs are good for catching his landings too, very safe and easy. Just watch him, really. Don't commit to something too early.

Don't forget to use F-air. It's actually really awesome in this match-up. It hits mega-high and can catch Snakes trying to cypher above your edgeguard with the sideways hit (kills relatively early off stage, ~70%) and reaches a lot further outwards than people think. It's hard to get away from once he's forced to cypher.

Edit: There's a very real chance of you getting a shield break on Snake and you should definitely look for it. Grenades do a lot of shield damage and makes a lot of Snakes want to trust their shield too much. Down-b also does a lot of shield damage. Giant punch does a good amount, can super armor the grenade too (you can be holding the grenade while you do it if you time it). But really this is about aerial side-b. If you're holding a grenade or he shield dropped a grenade and aerial side-b him as it explodes, that can nearly break a full shield. If you hold the grenade and side-b at him, it's pretty safe too since if you mess up you have an explosion covering him. You might just end up grounding him(and getting blown-up), which is fine too.

I just think that we force Snake into situations he doesn't like way too often, disrupt his normal game, and can control the pace of the match better than him. I think we also have stronger CPs, but I'm not sure how those account into match-ups. Just don't try and force anything and abuse his weaknesses as much as possible. Don't panic, Snakes feed off fear.

- The MU is not in our favor, and it cant possibly be in our favor, just by the fact that he can camp we are already losing. 45-55 on snakes favor.

Battlefield is not bad for DK, i dont see how battlefield forces u to approach than in any other stage, room is small and all, but platforms help you lots! helps ur juggling, jab lock set ups, easy %. One just has to fight according to the situation. Its not like Snake will automatically get an advantage just cause ur in Battlefield.

Its actually easier to fight there, and to take him of stage........

- Pivot grabbing is beautiful with DK, but i really use it more on unnecesary dodging or rolls or when snake is about to land from the air. Pivot grabbing a DACUS will just complicate ur game, IT IS POSSIBLE, in fact i did it today a couple of times, but if you can just simply Tilt or DownB, its more % and its almost safe so... lets just go on the secure side.

Snake wins this MU 45:55. DK's best stages imo to fight Snake are rainbow and delfino.

Snake just has to camp the whole entire match set everything down perfectly throw grenades NEVER APPROACH. A snake who approaches DK is ******** and is calling for him to get ***** get thrown off the stage and get spiked. Snakes f-tilt is broken and has tons of range while DK is fat and will eventually get hit. DK has to use his bair at perfect times and dont get shield grabbed and use his down b perfect for he can pop up snake and attack him. I dont think DK's f-tilt is very good against Snake on ground only when he is on the cypher. Mostly use bair. d-tilt down b and obviously super punch.
Snake mains in my region have been getting harder to fight these days there learning how to fight snake ehhh.

yeah, ftilt is kinda bad to use in this mu cause of snakes massive hitboxes, but you can use ftilt, to punish snakes ftilt. You should never hit his shield with it

I beat a Snake at the tourney today.

Down B is indeed godly in this MU

Ftilt is not that bad, there are just certain times you need to use it, never use it at close range, use at the longest range possible, and use it to punish his dodges or when hes getting up from the ledge.

I reckon snake has the advantage on Lylat and BF. The platforms work in his favour moreso than DK's, even if they do help with juggling.

Most Snake's won't get spiked out of a cargo dthrow after the first time. Jumping up with them as they cypher and give them a donkey punch to the face if the try to quickly recover upwards can sometimes work, there's not much he can do to stop while he's on the cypher and it's somewhat unexpected.

Going out to try and fair spike snake can result in bad times if he knows its coming. Snake's fair is faster than DK's and he can end up spiking you instead.

DK has a weird roll animation going backwards (I think) from snake's dthrow because it looks as if he's going to roll forward at the start. You can sort of use this to mess up tech chases.

If you're juggling snake and he pulls out a nade, you can still hit him with uair fairly easily without blowing up the grenade. Remember to watch out for b-reverses or wavebounced or w/e they're called grenades and C4s that will attempt to ruin your juggle, if you read it, watch or bait it you can use it to your advantage.

Grabbing snake in his landing lag is very good and can just put back up there. Although he does have that no lag landing with a grenade where he can sheild immediately if he's holding a nade, which can lead into rolls and dodges, so that's something to watch out for.

Punching a dacus feels goood.

DK's down b *****. But Snake's Dair oos is broken against DK...

In case of OoS dair, Di to the opposite direction hes flying to.

Battlefield should be neutral instead, its well for both players. The game relies on mistakes and doing the right thing for the MU.
The simplest error or change in game style into one that u shouldnt do, will also chage the match's way.
Snake can get the Advantage easily!

If you have high %, and youre on very low %, dont run torwards him thinking its a win.

Like i said before snake can easily turn the game around with a few nades and a Ftilt.. (PAM! PAM!)

patience.

up throw -> uair, it will connect. even if he airdodges we can hit him with a second one. its a frame trap. Only thing he can is dair us, the first hitbox will hit us and thats it, but we can punish his massive landing lag with our own dair.

I think if you could punish with D-air, you could probably punish with side-b. I guess it depends on what hits when/where, but I would look for it before d-air lol. At low %s (if you're u-throw u-airing him he's at low %), I would think D-airing him would just get you b-aired or grabbed.

Also, did you mean cargo u-throw?

Yes its the Cargo U-throw, normal Uthrow is useless.. lol

Actually it has like ONE use. At battlefield at around 60%, depending on the character, if you u-throw someone they will more or less just appear on the top platform. They really don't get much of a chance to tech and that's a pretty nasty position.

More on topic, don't bother throwing grenades. Our throw is just dumb slow, it's not worth it at all =c

Indeed.. even the Insta-throw is kinda useless... DK is to big and in order to insta-throw the nades must be around your hands.

Just avoid nades, and if you are sure you can Insta-throw em back, then go ahead.

lol Glide Tossing a nade at snake is like "ey yo f-tilt me bro, I'll take the 21% and then another 15% from the grenade ." That's like Get Hit, Actually Care For Serious.

But yeah the only thing we can do with nades are hold them and try and break his shield with a punch/side-b. I still think it's super fun to just throw nades back at him but it doesn't work D:

I guess I can agree with 45:55, I know what you all are trying to say. I just think that we get advantage because we get to control the pace of the match because of how we can immediately threaten him, and Snake, unless you're up close, can't.

No dude, the MU will never be in our favor. why?. Many reasons.....

1- He has the Nades as a spam, probably one of the best proyectiles.

2- The idea is to get snake in the air, but approaching must be well though in order to not get punished.

3- In case we dont approach he will 100% beat us at playing at a far distance.

4- He lives long.

5- We are huge... huge hurt box is good for snakes Huge hitbox.


There can possibly be many more, Just feel happy that even though the MU is 45-55 on snakes favor, we can totally beat the guy.

But yeah discussing ratios is more than not necesary, instead it would be even more time wasting, we must focus on tips and main keys to winning this MU.

Good luck throwing nades back.
Snake just pulls another nade and DK can watch in slow motion how his giant arms got weak, because the nade he throwed landed in front of him.
The only itemthrow that is "ok" is upthrow.

Insta throw is not bad, but its not like u will get more advantage by doing so, So its all up to the player.

A close friend of mine mains Snake, and I can say this match-up is even. It really comes down to player skill and knowledge of the match-up...and maybe a bit of luck on other sides behalf...considering this match-up is like a a BlazBlue match-up...whoever hits the other first has the opportunity to put out a hell of a lot of damage before the other can do anything to counter.

Pretty much everything about this has been stated, and having played Snake of Battlefield several times I agree with it being a bad stage. The platforms actually help Snake since his explosions reach underneath every one of the platforms. No need to repeat much of anything else, but I may have missed this one thing. Snake's jab is not to be overlooked. It comes out fast, and can set you up for a lot of stupid stuff, so don't forget about it when thinking of Ftilts.

Oh, and I think someone mentioned it but don't underestimate a Snake upon recovery. Sometimes it's best not to set yourself up for failure as I've seen some Snake's do some fancy stuff with Nades and Cyphers to catch a few unlucky opponents off guard when they go for the spike/MA.

Don't think I have anything new to cover though so I'm done...

cant be 50-50. just read above.

If a snake player is good, he wont get hit that easily and will give you hell with bombs and spams.
The fact that you dont seem to have trouble vs snakes doesnt change the fact that its a 55-45 MU.

just read up, i explained why.

Nades aren't that good and Snake actually lacks range in this MU. What seems to be so for Snake? And go offstage for a free spike too.

-LzR- said:

Nades aren't that good and Snake actually lacks range in this MU. What seems to be so for Snake? And go offstage for a free spike too.

Click to expand...

you will never win when your spouting nonsense