Sonic Matchup Export : Wolf

Tesh · Jan 21, 2011

Lets discuss the Wolf Matchup.

His fast, ranged moveset can give us some trouble in the air as well as his weight and mobility if we can't score early gimps. He is a fast falller and easily combo'd at lower percents (watch out for shine).

I'd say CP Pictochat, Ban Brinstar.

Where do we want Wolf to be?
How do we get him there and keep him there?

castorpollux · Jan 21, 2011

sonic's too fast.

i'd say 70:30 sonic advantage

Kinzer · Jan 21, 2011

If I had to pick between the three of the Star Fox characters I'd have to play Wolf, despite how I really don't like playing against any of them.

For good reason too.

This is an awkward stand-off where Wolf has the advantage from afar up-close, and for the most part all around. To me, the trick feels like you have to stay at mid-range and then play footsies.mindgames. The problem with that though is that if you misspace your pokes, he has answers to every single one of them.

Don't even try to tech his D-Throw unless you feel like mixing it up with you in the disadvantageous position. He gets a 2 frame advantage which that in itself isn't going to guarantee anything for him, but it becomes a reset which you will have taken damage. If it were me, I'd just take the knockback and the knockdown and recover likely normally (if it's onstage. Even if it's offstage it only slightly complicates recovery but nothing you can't stay safe from.). Sonic has no problems getting back, the dealbreaker is getting back without having Wolf punishing you for your landing. His FSmash will cover anything within his immediate vicinity, Blaster Shot will cover anything remotely far away, his Anti-air needs no introduction, and I already went over how dangerous it is to be right on top of him.

If anything though, the best position to put him in is above you where you can attempt to get a juggle game going. I can't even say with absolute certainly you'll have an easy time with him there.

His shine, that damn shine. So many times I've tried to go for a kill with a Bair air by either predicting him or just out of sheer desperation only to get pushed out and reset the position (where he's at an advantage). Uair extends Sonic's limbs somewhat and that's usually enough for Shine to hit you. Don't even get me started on Fair or Nair, but at least those two attacks are good for a successful airdodge read. At least it's limited to one of four things that he'll do on the way down:

B-Reversal Blaster Shot
Shine
Airdodge
Dair

Nothing else seems to be feasible.

Again, I cannot stress enough how frustrating it is to approach this matchup without first understanding how your opponent plays. If you get too aggressive you'll surely lose. If you try to play too defensively (without being gay like ledgehogging or whatever and just conventional camping) you will get chipped and you will eventually be put in a situation where you need to act and guessing wrong will cost you. The best way to approach this I'd say is to play a passive-aggressive style.

Never stick to one strategy/pattern. If it works twice, good. Good players will not fall for a third time though unless they want to intentionally fall for it the third time as they were aware of the first two instances and wanted to make a guess by confusing you. The same will go for them, so adapt accordingly. I won't say that every opportunity counts, but a good majority of them will at least give you the edge you need to seal the win or put you in a (somewhat) comfortable spot.

If I had to give this MU a ratio, I'd say it's Even, if not 55:45 in favor of Wolf. I wouldn't go as far as to say 6:4 because from having played a very good local Wolf player (who unfortunately doesn't travel), all I need is just a couple of reads and Sonic gets in good.

Seagull Joe · Jan 21, 2011

You're wrong. If you tech in front of Wolf we get a free jab. We aren't guaranteed anything other then Jab if you tech in place. If you tech roll then we can fsmash because it takes forever.

Wolf should never die till the 180's verse Sonic. Sonic can cp YI, but then Wolf can camp the top platform.

Fairs scare Sonic more then any other move by Wolf. It just ***** him and is always the kill move generally. Wolf can space Bairs and ours are faster and better then Sonics. We have a projectile. And we can't be baited from Fsmashs even if our landing is predicted because we can shine Sonic.

Shine has invicibility and Sonic can't really punish Jumpshine.

Wolf is top ten in weight and very heavy. Sonic is mid weight.

Matchup synopsis: 60-40 Wolf's favor.

He is harder then Fox vs Sonic and maybe even Falco. Those characters are light and easier to recovery predict/gimp. Wolf can scar through the stage and laser plank for better positioning.

Speed, Espy, Shado, and Wedge will likely agree with me. Before X ****riders pop in as usual, X consistently loses to Choice in Wolf vs Sonic from the times they played. I'd MM any Sonic player to this day still. MM'ing Kid at pound 5. I wanna MM Espy and X too. Speed won't MM me, but if he ever did then I would gladly accept.

Tesh · Jan 21, 2011

Please explain how laser planking works and tell me why Sonic can't punish jumpshine (assuming you didn't hit him).

If we predict a shine landing, how safe is shine on block/spotdodge? Where would you CP Sonic.

Are you saying you would prefer to ban Pictochat instead of YI? How do you camp the top platform and deal with uair sharking all game? I doubt shine outranged a spaced uair.

I need whys for every what.

Seagull Joe · Jan 21, 2011

Tesh said:
Please explain how laser planking works and tell me why Sonic can't punish jumpshine (assuming you didn't hit him).

If we predict a shine landing, how safe is shine on block/spotdodge? Where would you CP Sonic.

Are you saying you would prefer to ban Pictochat instead of YI? How do you camp the top platform and deal with uair sharking all game? I doubt shine outranged a spaced uair.

I need whys for every what.

Because jumpshine in itself is difficult to punish, but you are more then welcome to try.
I'd ban YI cause I'd rather verse Sonic on Picto. That's just a personal preference. I can always clank your invincidash with shine and you will just go through me doing no damage so it's a mute point.
Shine beats anything so it'll beat a spaced uair. You can try to bait a shine if you want to risk that.
Shine isn't safe on block at all, but if someone is shielding below me then I'm not gonna shine them. I'd land away. Someone being in a shield isn't threatening.

Laser planking is essentially Wolf edge drop and then full hop laser retreating. He can then choose to recover with up b or side b. There are no risks to choice because side b will land on stage and up b will too (If you choose to grab the edge).

Tesh · Jan 21, 2011

The hitbox on shine is big enough to hit Sonic or are you just referring to invincibility.

Why would baiting it be a "risk" for us if you are camping in a disadvantaged position?

Sonic walks about the same speed as Wolf can drift in the air. He won't just sit in shield hoping you will land on him. But getting grabbed won't be as bad as getting smashed past mid percents.

Speed, Espy, Shado, and Wedge will likely agree with me. Before X ****riders pop in as usual, X consistently loses to Choice in Wolf vs Sonic from the times they played. I'd MM any Sonic player to this day still. MM'ing Kid at pound 5. I wanna MM Espy and X too. Speed won't MM me, but if he ever did then I would gladly accept.

Yea this isn't the place for that.

Fried Ice Cream · Jan 21, 2011

If he spams his gun and F-smash, we're royally screwed.

Mr. Johan · Jan 21, 2011

Wolfs seem just as divided in this MU as the Sonics are. Some of them say it's an even matchup, many say it's a slight advantage for Wolf, some say it's a heavy advantage for Wolf. It just depends on the Sonic, I guess.

If you get a dtilt on Wolf at low percent, just keep chaining it. The dtilts + the followup should do upwards of 50-60% at around 0%. Uptilt seems to be the appropriate followup as it gets Wolf in the air and tacks a meaty 14% on him.

Wolf has the tools he needs to prevent obvious Spin Dash attacks. Invinci-Shine, Rapid Jab, ftilt, Blaster, Fair, Bair, Nair, you name it. ASC runs into the same problem due to those last 3 attacks.

The issue I have with Wolf is that his air speed makes it so that he can play keep up with you in the spacing game. Add that with his crazy air game, his projectile to control the flow of the match, and combo-breaking Shine, and I just feel like I'm being constantly pressured by his superior and faster moves, and that he doesn't have to do much of anything to keep it that way.

Watch out for his Bair, Fair, and Dair. Bair is fast, long, and apparently lagless, Fair is a long-ranged killing/spacing move, and Dair is long enough to hit characters below platforms (not sure if Sonic is tall enough to get hit by it below BF's platforms though).

His main killing moves are going to be Fair, Usmash, and Dsmash, so when you're in killing percents just keep to midrange, and be on the lookout for DACUSes as that particular one is crazy long. Fsmash shouldn't be a killing threat as you can DI to avoid the second hit, and supposing you do get hit by the second hit, iirc, it's the third weakest Fsmash in the game in terms of killing strength, behind the 2 Samuses.

Wolf has his B-reversal blaster and his Shine, and at times just his Dair, to break out of juggles, so know that he has these moves at his disposal to help himself, and react accordingly. Sharking him on ground level and throwing him back up seems to be the most effective things to do for damage racking onstage to me, alongside the dtilt lock.

If you get Wolf offstage, go after him and harass him. Wolfs will likely be DIing up on principle, so be prepared to confront him before he has time to use his Side B to make it to the ledge or the stage. When you're edgeguarding Wolf, know that his fastfall is just slightly faster, if not the same speed, as his regular speed, so Wolf doesn't have the option of surprising you and shooting down below you suddenly and coming out from under you. Eat his second jump if you can; Wolf can't risk being offstage for too long. If his second jump is gone, get to the ledge so that Wolf has to use his Side B to get to the stage. Wolfs should never be using UpB unless he is directly below the ledge; if he does use UpB, ledgesnap is most effective. I think Shadowlink once said that UpB has no hitstun in some of hitboxes in the middle of the move, so maybe Nair or Fair inbetween the move and push Wolf out farther?

I think Wolf is one of Sonic's harder matchups in the game, and that it's a solid advantage for Wolf, because of his ease of racking up damage up-close, solid kill moves, and reliable options to shut Sonic down in virtually everything he does. If I went with a number ratio, I'd probably go with 6:4 Wolf

MegaRobMan · Jan 21, 2011

Sonic has no chance if the wolf plays smart. All we have to do is ban YI and then not get grabbed by the fake spin dash thing. Wolfs laser-Shine-Bair-Fair-F-smash are almost unbeatable by anything sonic will do if not on YI. I'm from Nebraska so I've actually played one of the best Sonics in the world a few times (Trent) so I'm not really full of crap even though I'm not exactly giving you any new info you haven't heard.

75-25 if the Wolf knows his bans/CP's, 60-40 if not. So 65-35 for composite score.

Seagull Joe · Jan 21, 2011

If a Dtilt combo spree took Wolf from 0 to 50-60 then I'd be surprised at the Wolf player.

Up b does have no hitstun at all, but Wolf players shouldn't up b at a person. That's just silly LOL.

Bair is Wolf's best killing move if it's completely fresh, which is rare/matchup dependent. Is Wolf's Fsmash really the 3rd worst in terms of strength?
Oh and Sonic can be released into a side b sweetspotted by Wolf ;D.

Browny · Jan 21, 2011

inafter trolls

-- dammit seagull lol

Deleted member · Jan 21, 2011

Seagull Man said:
Oh and Sonic can be released into a side b sweetspotted by Wolf ;D.

I think Sonic may be becoming one of my favorite MUs to play...but mostly because of this.

Tesh · Jan 21, 2011

Interesting... He can't force an air release on Sonic though can he?

I think Kinzer might be exaggerating the dtilt combo. Ideally its 3-5 dtilts (with good pivoting) 1 pummel and an upthrow. I wouldn't say Wolf is really easy to hit with a non tippered dtilt though.

How does Wolf approach Sonic if he needs to catch up in percents or score a KO? Walk into jabs? Bairs and airdodge cross ups?

Kinzer · Jan 21, 2011

I didn't say anything about DTilts.

WedginatorX · Jan 21, 2011

Joe's right. I completely agree with him on that whole first post he made about sonic vs wolf.
From my experiences with wolf, it's keeping the lead that's the problem. Even if you have a good 50% lead on wolf, depending on what percents you're both at he can bring it back against sonic rather easily because wolf can kill sonic much quicker than sonic can kill wolf. Dtilt strings can be helpful, but they sure as hell aint gonna kill anybody.

If you lose the lead against wolf, it's a hell of a time trying to bring it back. I did discover that if you powershield the bair you can buffer a jump oos into uair and hit him with the tip of it. I'm not quite definite on this, but it worked for me. Required some really strict timing. The problem is powershielding the storm of bairs :l

Tesh · Jan 21, 2011

Kinzer said:
I didn't say anything about DTilts.

Oh sorry. Meant sonic storm. Dtilt locks aren't very effective because the hitbox that starts them is about the size of Sonic's grab range.

I believe Wolf's bair is technically too safe for that Wedge. Its more of a guessing game of what he might do next, just like with a spaced Fair from Peach.

Seagull Joe · Jan 21, 2011

Tesh said:
Interesting... He can't force an air release on Sonic though can he?

I think Kinzer might be exaggerating the dtilt combo. Ideally its 3-5 dtilts (with good pivoting) 1 pummel and an upthrow. I wouldn't say Wolf is really easy to hit with a non tippered dtilt though.

How does Wolf approach Sonic if he needs to catch up in percents or score a KO? Walk into jabs? Bairs and airdodge cross ups?

He is pretty fast in the air. If he needs to catch up in percents then I guess he'd chase Sonic?

I know Sonic pretty well from using him. I never fall for spindash cancels>grabs anymore. I always grab first

.

Retreated Fairs, Juggling, laser spam. It's the same as catching up to any character ideally.

Kinzer said:
I didn't say anything about DTilts.

Sonic storm did bby.

Tesh said:
Oh sorry. Meant sonic storm. Dtilt locks aren't very effective because the hitbox that starts them is about the size of Sonic's grab range.

I believe Wolf's bair is technically too safe for that Wedge. Its more of a guessing game of what he might do next, just like with a spaced Fair from Peach.

Wolf's Bair is the safest move in the game on shield if it's spaced perfectly. Not even D3 can grab him.

WedginatorX said:
Joe's right. I completely agree with him on that whole first post he made about sonic vs wolf.
From my experiences with wolf, it's keeping the lead that's the problem. Even if you have a good 50% lead on wolf, depending on what percents you're both at he can bring it back against sonic rather easily because wolf can kill sonic much quicker than sonic can kill wolf. Dtilt strings can be helpful, but they sure as hell aint gonna kill anybody.

If you lose the lead against wolf, it's a hell of a time trying to bring it back. I did discover that if you powershield the bair you can buffer a jump oos into uair and hit him with the tip of it. I'm not quite definite on this, but it worked for me. Required some really strict timing. The problem is powershielding the storm of bairs :l

If Wolf is Bair walling then you can time an attack between his 1st and 2nd Bair.

Tesh · Jan 21, 2011

Juggling doesn't sound like a very good approach.

Whats your general gameplan for dealing with Sonic? Any good kill setups Sonic should watch out for?

Espy Rose · Jan 21, 2011

Sonic definitely has a tiny disadvantage to Wolf, but Seagull is blowing it a little out of proportion with this 6:4 talk.

WedginatorX · Jan 22, 2011

He really isn't espy.
Play gull, yes!, or choice lol. you'll know. It's impossible to approach, and unless you play a perfect defensive game, he has a much easier time killing us than we do them.

MegaRobMan · Jan 22, 2011

Espy, seriously, it's 65:35. You can't beat this laser.

Deleted member · Jan 22, 2011

Espy Kasrani said:
Sonic definitely has a tiny disadvantage to Wolf, but Seagull is blowing it a little out of proportion with this 6:4 talk.

Oh wow. You were the last person I thought would disagree with him.

~ Gheb ~ · Jan 22, 2011

Sonic absolutely destroys Wolf.

Deleted member · Jan 22, 2011

Gheb_01 said:
Sonic absolutely destroys Wolf.

Good troll.

~ Gheb ~ · Jan 22, 2011

lol you think I'm trolling? Have fun with an auto-lose match-up. Sonic only needs to hit you one time and then there's nothing you can do to catch him.

Browny · Jan 22, 2011

I almost feel sorry for you gheb...

~ Gheb ~ · Jan 22, 2011

Wow, you guys seriously think I'm trolling *facepalm*

Exceladon City · Jan 22, 2011

MegaRobMan said:
Espy, seriously, it's 65:35. You can't beat this laser.

Come to MW:E and I'll MM you 3 dollars. Because I highly doubt you know what you're doing son.

WedginatorX · Jan 22, 2011

Excel, your sonic is terrible. Plz get out dis thread

Tenki · Jan 22, 2011

Seagull Man said:
Fairs scare Sonic more then any other move by Wolf. It just ***** him and is always the kill move generally. Wolf can space Bairs and ours are faster and better then Sonics. We have a projectile. And we can't be baited from Fsmashs even if our landing is predicted because we can shine Sonic.

Shine has invicibility and Sonic can't really punish Jumpshine.

Wolf is top ten in weight and very heavy. Sonic is mid weight.

Matchup synopsis: 60-40 Wolf's favor.

He is harder then Fox vs Sonic and maybe even Falco. Those characters are light and easier to recovery predict/gimp. Wolf can scar through the stage and laser plank for better positioning.

Speed, Espy, Shado, and Wedge will likely agree with me. Before X ****riders pop in as usual, X consistently loses to Choice in Wolf vs Sonic from the times they played. I'd MM any Sonic player to this day still. MM'ing Kid at pound 5. I wanna MM Espy and X too. Speed won't MM me, but if he ever did then I would gladly accept.

Granted, I don't have any experience vs a 'good' wolf and I do feel it's a bit in his favor due to his air game, but... some of this feels a little exaggerated. Like, "I can sit in side-B and camp you with its 5-6 frames of invincibility to counter every move you throw at me" exaggerated.

We can get faked out, and so can shines.

Can wolf vary the distance he gets on stage from scarring (or whatever the hell the -sidebfromtheedge- is called)? I usually just sit somewhere between the middle of the stage and the edge, just like you would for any of the other spacies, since I usually see that take Wolf to the center of the stage..

also lol, "x ****riders". I don't think you'll find (m)any of those here XD. and wow Shado, I haven't seen him in forever :<

Sonic Storm said:
If you get a dtilt on Wolf at low percent, just keep chaining it. The dtilts + the followup should do upwards of 50-60% at around 0%. Uptilt seems to be the appropriate followup as it gets Wolf in the air and tacks a meaty 14% on him.
...

His main killing moves are going to be Fair, Usmash, and Dsmash, so when you're in killing percents just keep to midrange, and be on the lookout for DACUSes as that particular one is crazy long. Fsmash shouldn't be a killing threat as you can DI to avoid the second hit, and supposing you do get hit by the second hit, iirc, it's the third weakest Fsmash in the game in terms of killing strength, behind the 2 Samuses.

...

If you get Wolf offstage, go after him and harass him. Wolfs will likely be DIing up on principle, so be prepared to confront him before he has time to use his Side B to make it to the ledge or the stage.

...I think Shadowlink once said that UpB has no hitstun in some of hitboxes in the middle of the move, so maybe Nair or Fair inbetween the move and push Wolf out farther?

@dtilt stuff: Wow, really? I usually get 1-3 d-tilts before they SDI out. 50-60% feels super exaggerated. 20-30% more like it, but then again, I don't know many followups anymore and just play hit for hit so if you have any video of this, I'll be glad to try it lol.

@killmoves: Wolf's u-tilt can kill unexpectedly as well (ex, countering an aerial or something), especially if you're say, being cautious and avoiding his other kill moves. I don't know what % it does, but I do remember being surprised at its knockback.

@wolf's upB: Well, you can DI/SDI out of up-B but he's still moving, so if you get hit, I think the small 'hurt' animation is enough to let him back to wherever he's heading (ledge?) with the move. I've personally never broken through it while still in it.

MegaRobMan said:
Sonic has no chance if the wolf plays smart. All we have to do is ban YI and then not get grabbed by the fake spin dash thing.

lol, that's interesting. :V I like how spindash cancels are brought up as a matchup point here both by you and someone else (I'm sure I read something along the lines of "I play Sonic too and I always grab him before he can grab me out of ASC cancels")

...but really, it's basically a fancy shieldgrab.

ASC>grab might as well be something like a wolf b-air/nair on shield > grab
spindash cancel > grab might as well be a regular shield grab.

It's not really very specific in the matchup unless you want to talk about how good Wolf is at avoiding SH > grab or shieldgrabs in general. Tell me about his shield pressure game and safety of his spacing aerials on powershields plz.

Kinzer · Jan 22, 2011

Tenki, just how much success do you see from hanging around in that area when Wolf is on the ledge?

I generally avoid that spot. If the Wolf scar's back on stage, even if I shield it it's so much that I might as well let him back on for free and not take the shield damage. That's the best case scenario if you get hit too. :/

Trillion · Jan 22, 2011

Espy Kasrani said:
Sonic definitely has a tiny disadvantage to Wolf, but Seagull is blowing it a little out of proportion with this 6:4 talk.

I agree. I feel it's about 55 - 45 in Wolf's favor.

I've never played a good wolf main irl. I've played a few on wifi. I've played some friends irl who are not wolf mains, but who are smart enough at Brawl to put up a decent fight. So, if you disagree, keep in mind where my experience is coming from and don't rail me too hard please.

Wolf's laser makes Sonic's approach even more difficult than it already is. A wolf who spaces himself well while lasering can force us to approach or set up his own approach.

Just trying to get through the laser, could result in us eating a forward smash or a fair, etc. and then starting the process all over again.

Once Sonic manages to get in close to Wolf though, we can combo for some relatively large %'s due to wolf's fall speed.

Wolf is heavier and takes longer to kill + Sonic has difficulties getting kills. Sonic has a great recovery and will likely always be killed by a smash.

It seems to me that Wolf has better control of the flow of the match and of the stage the majority of the time which will allow him to slowly rack up a lot of damage, but when Sonic gets his opening, he will be able to optimize it for larger amounts of damage each time. So, if both sides are playing smart, I think that the match will be pretty even. Wolf's advantage in kill moves is what gives him the overall match up advantage.

As for stages:

FD is in Wolf's favor due to a lack of any platforms to give any relief from lasers.

Lylat is probably good for Sonic because the tilting ledge can hurt Wolf's recovery and the curve in the stage + the platforms will make laser's less useful.

BF might be neutralish, but I'm not entirely sure.

WedginatorX · Jan 22, 2011

Yes mm, when sonic gets his opening he can build up some good percentage. But the problem is wolf NEVER GIVES SONIC AN OPENING. It's almost impossible to find a spot where you can slip through the wall of bears.

Goldenadept · Jan 22, 2011

wolfs bair has the strength of two bears using bair

Tenki · Jan 22, 2011

Kinzer said:
Tenki, just how much success do you see from hanging around in that area when Wolf is on the ledge?

I generally avoid that spot. If the Wolf scar's back on stage, even if I shield it it's so much that I might as well let him back on for free and not take the shield damage. That's the best case scenario if you get hit too. :/

Eh, I don't get guaranteed returns from it in terms of reading, but it's just generally where I hang out vs spacies: You have some time to dash past the center of the stage ('out of range' of sideB recoveries/closer to a place you can grab with) but at the same time you're also close enough to deal with a more conventional ledge movement.

I think it might be one of those times where DDP might be useful: foxtrot towards the center can put 'pressure' on that spot and discourage it, while still making it so you can DDP back and still pshield a laser or deal with a more familiar DJ aerial/'regular' ledge option.

-----
Oh btw guys, pshield in this matchup is super good. Just speaking from what usually happens when I play my friend's Wolf, it's very possible to run in, pshield a laser and counter hit with an F-tilt (or better yet, if he does two grounded lasers, pshield > pshield grab, depending on your starting distance). A distance of about a little over/around half of FD is a pretty good zone to 'camp' lasers with.

I really don't put too much stock in laser spacing unless Sonic is in midair or you're on wifi - IMO Wolf's aerial game and air speed is his strong point in this matchup lol.

WedginatorX · Jan 22, 2011

Powershield in any matchup is good, tenki >_>

Tesh · Jan 22, 2011

FYI the "fake spindash thing" doesn't have to cancel into a grab. If you are spotdodging, rolling, jabbing, jumpshining or w/e to avoid a grab based on the sound you hear, thats exactly the point.

As soon as you hear that sound, Sonic can cancel into his shield and then do whatever he wants from there. And wolf doesn't have an option that beats aerials, rolls, grabs, spotdodges and jabs with the same timing. Not to mention that sound could also be an indication of a lagless move with invincibility coming out in the next 6 frames.

Edit: As far as frame data, how screwed is Wolf if we powershield the first hit of his Ftilt? Or with a normal shield?

Goldenadept · Jan 22, 2011

iirc its like 13 frames or was it 26? @_@ its really bad regardless, if you PS or normal shield the 1st hit there's no excuse to not get a grab

Tesh · Jan 22, 2011

I was hoping for something more along the lines of a shield drop Dsmash. But 10 frames is enough to jump backwards OoS into an ASC after the 2nd hit I guess.

I was reading through the Wolf guide and it says you guys get stuck in that weird frozen lag during clashes. Is that true? If we jab or tilt against your ftilt, you get stuck in it while we reset?

Sonic Matchup Export : Wolf

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