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Pulling out specific turnips like armada does by timing it at the right frame.

Laijin

Laijin

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wtf did I just read..can someone validate this?

PoundSlap said:
i also analysed the progress of a top player, armada, which im sure you know because he always sticks out with his extremely smart gameplay and his awesome mindgames that brought the metagame to a whole new point and that not only for peach. when i saw him playing a couple of years ago i noticed that he was doing a lot less crouchcancel to dtilts and he missed a couple of bob ombs/stitch faces that he manipulated by pulling it on the right frame. but his gameplay always has been really incredible so its also interesting to witness how talented some players are. thats what i wanted to say regarding a player example
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PoundSlap said:
I think that hes able to judge the chance just proves his god status. You only have 1 frame per second where you can get a stitch face and the problem about this is that armada cannot always pull turnips because hes getting attacked at the same time and he also has to keep up his offense. Thats why he doesnt have always time to pull it at the right frame
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DoH

DoH

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Mike G has this theory that if you pull a turnip on like the 99th millisecond it'll be a stitch I think
 
A

Armada

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indigestible_wad: If i understood your post correctly you mean we are playing with 50 hz and that´s not correct.

Yeah pulling up Stiches/bombs when I wanna do that is kinda cool actually =).
 
❀W.E.M.P.❀

❀W.E.M.P.❀

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Armada said:
Maybe maybe not.
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Armada keeping secrets :embarrass:

I really thought it was just a random chance of getting whatever you pull. Does this make GnW's 9 hammer on a timer/frame counter?

I also seem to remember someone on the melee discussion talking about randoming stages is on a frame count and ninja'ing stages that way.

How to melee?
 
t3h Icy

t3h Icy

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❀W.E.M.P.❀ said:
Armada keeping secrets :embarrass:

I really thought it was just a random chance of getting whatever you pull. Does this make GnW's 9 hammer on a timer/frame counter?

I also seem to remember someone on the melee discussion talking about randoming stages is on a frame count and ninja'ing stages that way.

How to melee?
Click to expand...
There's no such thing as "random", only pseudorandom.
 
Seikend

Seikend

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Tested both the 99 millisecond and 02 millisecond theories, neither of them guarantee turnips.

Each time you individually load the game, the turnips you get seems to change.

I started one load, and saved just before I started a game so the settings remained the same. I stood still until :59 and then turnip pulled, each time getting an :o face.

Loading the save, I tested again, same results. I also changed peach's colours, still :o at :59.

Changing peach's scale on the other hand, changes what you get. However, it's consistent within the save. I got a Mr. Saturn everytime at :59.

Next, I closed the emulation and started a new one. I set up the game in the exact same way as last time, and saved.

This time, everytime I turnip pulled at :59 I got a -.- face. Colour had no influence, but 0.8 scale lead to consistently getting a smiley face at :59.


So I can only assume that the turnip pulls aren't solely determined by what happens in a match. I'm guessing the timing for the menu selections makes a difference to the RNG, or some other crazy nonsense.

Tl;Dr You can't predict turnip pulls.unless you're Armada.

At least, I think you can't.
 
Composeur

Composeur

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Seikend said:
Tested both the 99 millisecond and 02 millisecond theories, neither of them guarantee turnips.

...

Tl;Dr You can't predict turnip pulls.unless you're Armada.
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Um, wow, thank you to someone for actually investigating this claim. I don't think anyone expected to get a real answer out of our discussion. <3 Seikend
 
Seikend

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Laijin said:
What if you pull out a specifc turnip, can't you look at the time you pulled it out? And then try and pull it out again at that same time later on in the match?
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As in, at the same number of milliseconds left?

I'll test it soon
 
Seikend

Seikend

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Well I know for certain that pulling out at any specific millisecond timing doesn't guarantee the same turnip each time.

As far as I can tell, the game doesn't base turnip pulls off the time in the game, but there's a RNG somewhere that the numbers are based on.

Things like scale, and the attacks you use in-game influence the RNG.

E.G. If you Dsmash, then pull a turnip at 9:59:00, you aren't guaranteed the same turnip as if you didn't do the Dsmash, and just pulled at 9:59:00.

And just to make things more complicated, the timing of attacks also makes a difference.

A Dsmash at 9:59:98 and a turnip pull at 9:59:00 doesn't guarantee the same turnip as a Dsmash at 9:59:96 and a turnip pull at 9:59:00


EDIT: I know I've read the odds of getting a non turnip is 1/300 from several places, but I have no idea where that originally came from. Anyone know the source?
 
TheDekuNut

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yes there is almost definitely a rng for random stage, turnips, g&w, and probably everything else "random". no armada cannot rng turnips. you should probably be using frames not milliseconds btw not sure. and please change the op to quotes from someone else whose opinion is worth something or maybe your own thoughts on the matter before he trolls this thread and gets it closed. good topic anyway
 
Seikend

Seikend

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TheDekuNut said:
yes there is almost definitely a rng for random stage, turnips, g&w, and probably everything else "random". no armada cannot rng turnips. you should probably be using frames not milliseconds btw not sure. and please change the op to quotes from someone else whose opinion is worth something or maybe your own thoughts on the matter before he trolls this thread and gets it closed. good topic anyway
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Milliseconds is fine, the game always displays the same number of milliseconds left for each frame of the second, e.g. Frame 1 is always :00, frame 2 is always :99, frame 3 is always :98, frame 4 is always :96 etc.

I am tempted to debug the game and see how the RNG works but really, it's clear that the RNG is far too complex for anyone to predict. (unless you're Armada.)


Stitchface to bomb.

Beamsword at the start of a match twice in a row...


And I didn't see a single stitchface, beamsword or bobomb the entire time I've been testing this.

Maybe peach mains are just lucky :urg:
 
MacD

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i also got 2 stitches 2nd match :D

and against axe on battlefield, i've gotten a bomb and 2 stitches twice :D

i'll take lucky, works for me

it's cool to know that what moves you do and stuff effects what you get, one more reason melee is amazing, a great RNG
 
Seikend

Seikend

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ryuu seika said:
So technically it would be possible to get an opening KO with G&W every game if you knew how?
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Uhh. Maybe.

Even if you can do things precisely to each frame, and knew how the RNG worked,

I'm guessing that what your opponent does also influences the RNG.

So you'd also have to be able to tell what your opponent is doing on each frame too.
 
Laijin

Laijin

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TheDekuNut said:
yes there is almost definitely a rng for random stage, turnips, g&w, and probably everything else "random". no armada cannot rng turnips. you should probably be using frames not milliseconds btw not sure. and please change the op to quotes from someone else whose opinion is worth something or maybe your own thoughts on the matter before he trolls this thread and gets it closed. good topic anyway
Click to expand...
I don't think PoundSlap is a troll..(serious)
 
ryuu seika

ryuu seika

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Seikend said:
Uhh. Maybe.
Even if you can do things precisely to each frame, and knew how the RNG worked,
I'm guessing that what your opponent does also influences the RNG.
So you'd also have to be able to tell what your opponent is doing on each frame too.
Click to expand...
But we do know that pre-battle changes don't affect it from your tests on colour right?
Does stage choice?

If not then theory would dictate that it's simply a matter of learning the common starting moves of opponents and the exact timings they entail.
Getting an opening 9 every time would be enough of an advantage to make that worthwhile I think.
 
Seikend

Seikend

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ryuu seika said:
But we do know that pre-battle changes don't affect it from your tests on colour right?
Does stage choice?

If not then theory would dictate that it's simply a matter of learning the common starting moves of opponents and the exact timings they entail.
Getting an opening 9 every time would be enough of an advantage to make that worthwhile I think.
Click to expand...
Colour doesn't make a difference, but I know for certain that something else does.

I've set up several games with the same settings, and done the same things in game, and I got different results in each test. Something seems to influence the RNG pre-battle, but I'm not sure /what/ it is. It could be the gamecube's setting for the time and date, it could be the menu selections.

So yeah, not practical at all.

(I might test stage choices later, but I don't think it's too important)
 
ryuu seika

ryuu seika

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Ok so it's not really doable. That's probably for the best.

EDIT: I've been thinking. It's possible to glitch the Wii calendar by setting it to the last day of 2035. Would this prevent the time from having an affect on the RNG?
 
t3h Icy

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One thing that could be tested is the gaps of frames where you can grab different turnips. Instead of a different turnip (for the most part) per frame, maybe it's a group of 5 frames for normal turnip, a group of 8 frames for O.O turnip, etc. That would be significantly easier and more controllable.

You could theoretically grab what you want, but you'd have to know how the RNG of the game works. The idea of someone able to do this depends just how it does.
 
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