The Bat without wings. Marth match-up discussion

OK! Lets get this ball rollin. Any discussion relevant to mu will be discussed here ratios at the bottom of your post dont post a ratio w/o specific relevant info. k thx.

relevant being...
advantages/disadvantages of stages
cp's
ban's
bread n' butter moves
Things to watch out for
How to approach it
things to keep in mind
etc. etc.



Ready set...GO!

Pit's Advantages:


- Forces Marth to approach
- Kills earlier than Marth
- Can punish whiffed dolphin slashes etc with quick smashes
- Safer kill setups
- Can chase Marth off-stage
- Glair can challenge Marth in the air


Marth's Advantages:

- Can Up-B out of some moves like Angel Ring
- Can pressure Pit once he gets inside
- Good pokes


This matchup comes down to how well Pit can camp and punish, vs how well the Marth can stay on Pit. Pit needs to camp hard, and read Marth.

I'd say its pretty even

I like taking Marth to Battlefield and then maybe Halberd if I lost. Battlefield is completely personal preference (although platforms do help Pit punish Marth), and Halberd because it helps Pit in all of the stage transforms. Pit can shark marth at the floating stage, and camp hardcore through the flat stage. He can also arrow pressure past the lazer.....lol

I don't see myself having trouble when I face Marth.

First of all, we have the projectile so Marth has to approach. And we can keep him at bay very nicely with arrow spam and pivot arrows while retreating. Marth can't do anything as long as we stay away from him and shoot him up with arrows. Works very well when we are in the lead by a stock.

Marth is light than Pit so we should be able to kill him faster. Our kill moves consist of fsmash, bair, dsmash, and glair (not as reliable). His kill move is generally going to be fsmash. This move however will probably be stale and won't kill unless he gets a tipper. With a tipper, Marth can also kill with dsmash, nair, fair and bair offstage, and a dair spike.

We can also gimp Marth offstage. A flurry of arrows or a wall of pain are enough to send him to an early death. If you wall of pain, Marth can fair you away, but if you mirror shield this then he will most likely be dead. Be sure to be accurate with arrows because Marth does have some significant recovery options. He can stall his momentum a little with dancing blade so be weary of this. His fully charged neutral b gives him a strong momentum boost from up high offtstage, but you can mirror shield and kill him with that as well. His dolphin slash can also be mirror shielded, but you have to predict when he will use it because it is incredibly fast. He sometime's fair planks through the stage which you can mirror shield sending him under the stage where you might have time to edgehog afterwards.

The only place he has the advantage is on the ground, but only in his comfort zone. Marth's sword is longer (but we have two ) so naturally his attacks have more range. His dtilt, dancing blade, and fsmash are the moves he will mostly use on the ground. They are great for shield pressure, but the latter two are very punishable, especially if the last hit of dancing blade is close to your shield. Almost everything works oos on that, I recommend a grab because with Pit's grab range, opportunities like that are a blessing. Though, be attentive because a smart Marth knows this and may end the dancing blade at 3 or 2 attacks if your shield is up. He will only use fair or uair if you are approaching from the air which you shouldn't do when he is on the ground as he can probably shield and dolphin slash us no matter what we do in that situation.

Dolphin slash is another thing about Marth. The combo breaker. This is a strength of his because our normal fthrow to ss fsmash doesn't work due to this move. It can also be a weakness because if we bait it with a shield up, we can do whatever we want to him in his helpless state. Dolphin slash will also go through angel ring and punish us if we try to punish some of his attacks with a dash grab.

Marth's grabs are for the most part useless except for at low percents because he can fsmash out of a dthrow or fthrow (not sure which) from 0%. He usually also follows up with a fair. His uthrow and dancing blade up can kill at really high percents, but he'll mostly be trying to kill with an utilt by then.

Our grabs are more useful as our dthrow/uthrow and bthrow near the edge put him in uncomfortable positions.

In the air, he wins face to face, but we have the advantage below him and behind him because his dair/bair aerials are laggy and punishable if they miss. His fair/nair are the only things we have to worry about so just don't fly at him while he's flying at you. Instead, if he full hop or short hop fairs run under him and punish his landing. If you're above him the only thing he can do is uair so fast fall airdodge. Sometimes they wait for the airdodge and then uair.

Marth can get ***** by our juggling and Pit has the tools to put him in the air (and keep him there). We all know the moves to put him in the air, dtilt, dthrow, usmash, and utilt from the ground. A good strategy is to SH airdodge inside his shield and use our frame 2 utilt. Once he is in the air he can't do much about our uair unless he randomly decides to down b, but I've never seen a Marth do that. If he airdodges the uair we can nair or dair to put him back in the air. If close enough to the ground, fastfall and usmash will put him back into the air after his airdodge.


Overall, Marth needs to be able to space and read drastically more than Pit does. He wants us in his comfort zone which is the length of his blade. All we have to do is stay away and shoot arrows until he gets in. When he gets in, stay close enough that you can shield and punish his moves, but if you mess up, his moves won't kill you. He really needs a bit of luck to get those tipper kills, but we may end up losing a stock early if we get fsmash tipped so be careful.

For stages, I don't think there is any particular stage where Marth has the advantage. Strike/Ban small stages or one's we can't escape by flying under. I always ban Yoshi's Island, but I will sometimes go to PS1. Cp the stage you are most comfortable with, though I bet Marth doesn't do too well on rainbow. You might also want to strike/ban Smashville just for the sole purpose that it's too comfortable for Marth mains. (He can platform cancel well there too) Final Destination is better against Marth than Smashville.


I would say 55:45 our favor.

o_O
i think marth is pits worst matchup LOL i guess im doin it wrong or something.
Marth easily rushes down through projectiles, and zones pit really hard with falling neutral air. It is kinda risky to stay on ledge at tipper fsmash percents because he can walk foward and tipper fsmash you XD Nair is the reason this is so hard.

The only place pit has the advantage imo is when marth is offstage. His range and the shield stun of his moves makes it difficult to really do anything with jabs and grabs, and while our fsmash is a nice punish, we need to keep it freshish to capitalize on a spacing slip up if it occurs, so grabs are better punishes imo. Any overly aggressive play by pit can get dancing bladed.

Arrows are the only reason it isnt soo bad, but marth deals with arrows better than almost everyone, and if he manages a powershield, dancing blade occurs.

Pit really has trouble against marths spacing, his pokes, and his ability to kill early. Pit can camp and edgeguard, but cannot effectively space or poke.

Not much experience on this matchup but thats what i think from my experiences so far, im probably wrong (but i think on this matchup i might be pretty close, people underestimate marth and overestimate pit).

I think luckay is drastically underrating marth, who has much more solid fundementals than pit does as far as close quarters combat goes. His pressure game is just so powerful especially against a character like pit , who doesnt really have a big high priority move to beat it (like shuttle loop or yoshi usmash XD) or any huge punishes like snake does. It just seems downhill unless the marth really is having trouble getting past arrow camping, which is possible maybe.

Inui once thought of it as 55-45 Pit's advantage like Luckay. I'd be interested to know if he still does. I find it impossible to see Pit with an advantage in the Matchup.

Compulsory viewing though Vex vs Pierce: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBSLt90xmSA

I'll write more later

I've always thought of this MU as in Marth's favor particularly because Marth's got some crazy good approaches on Pit and his grabs/FAir put Pit in very bad positions (along with numerous other moves like Dtilt/UAir/NAir). His ledge trap also puts so much work on Pit, it's nuts; he's also very capable of edgeguarding because if he positions himself correctly Pit has only two options to try and beat BAir and both are timing/spacing dependent.

Pit can edgeguard + screw with Marth's approach pretty well though, and he's no slouch at controlling Marth's landing. I just don't think that those are significant enough to put the MU in his favor. Pit hits Marth like four times, Marth gets Pit to grab the ledge, GLHF because Pit's gonna take 40-50 before he comes on stage if the Marth does it correctly.

How exactly does Marth ledge trap Pit?

I think its Marth's favour but not for that though. Pit does not need to get back on the stage until Marth lets him, thats what arrows are for and and any attempt at Bair can be mirrorshielded, Fair'd, WOI for the quick ledge grab with invicibility frames ready for the MS gimp or edgehog or if Pit gets hit, he can just fly to the other side of the stage and start again. I think the problem with the match is how do we kill Marth?

EDIT: I also 2nd not going to Smashville. Marth's love all that platform cancelling.

MMMMMM Theory craft! I'll present you with some of my own theory craft.

Side note: I've actively used both characters so I'll try and get some relevant info in.

Nitrix




Luckay

Spoiler

Luckay4Lyphe said:

I don't see myself having trouble when I face Marth.

First of all, we have the projectile so Marth has to approach. And we can keep him at bay very nicely with arrow spam and pivot arrows while retreating. Marth can't do anything as long as we stay away from him and shoot him up with arrows. Works very well when we are in the lead by a stock.

Can't do anything...really? Do the Marth's you play against not know what a shield button is?

Marth is light than Pit so we should be able to kill him faster. Our kill moves consist of fsmash, bair, dsmash, and glair (not as reliable). His kill move is generally going to be fsmash. This move however will probably be stale and won't kill unless he gets a tipper. With a tipper, Marth can also kill with dsmash, nair, fair and bair offstage, and a dair spike.

Or utilt, upsmash Dolphin Slash. You know...those other moves we have that just happen to kill

We can also gimp Marth offstage. A flurry of arrows or a wall of pain are enough to send him to an early death. If you wall of pain, Marth can fair you away, but if you mirror shield this then he will most likely be dead. Be sure to be accurate with arrows because Marth does have some significant recovery options. He can stall his momentum a little with dancing blade so be weary of this. His fully charged neutral b gives him a strong momentum boost from up high offtstage, but you can mirror shield and kill him with that as well. His dolphin slash can also be mirror shielded, but you have to predict when he will use it because it is incredibly fast. He sometime's fair planks through the stage which you can mirror shield sending him under the stage where you might have time to edgehog afterwards.

O.o
I can only see this happening if the Marth doesn't recover low and uses his second jump way too early.

If we don't use our second jump and you do manage to mirror our fair......simple. We'll just do a DB, stop the momentum have our position changed around and just continue from there.

Oh and you could try and Mirror us on the edge but we'd still grab it....but backwards. xD It's freaky lol.

But yeah you overestimate your shield. (I would know)

The only place he has the advantage is on the ground, but only in his comfort zone. Marth's sword is longer (but we have two ) so naturally his attacks have more range. His dtilt, dancing blade, and fsmash are the moves he will mostly use on the ground. They are great for shield pressure, but the latter two are very punishable, especially if the last hit of dancing blade is close to your shield. Almost everything works oos on that, I recommend a grab because with Pit's grab range, opportunities like that are a blessing. Though, be attentive because a smart Marth knows this and may end the dancing blade at 3 or 2 attacks if your shield is up. He will only use fair or uair if you are approaching from the air which you shouldn't do when he is on the ground as he can probably shield and dolphin slash us no matter what we do in that situation.

Lies,Marth has the advantage in the air as well. It looks somewhat even horizontally but vertically we have you as juggle bait.

Dolphin slash is another thing about Marth. The combo breaker. This is a strength of his because our normal fthrow to ss fsmash doesn't work due to this move. It can also be a weakness because if we bait it with a shield up, we can do whatever we want to him in his helpless state. Dolphin slash will also go through angel ring and punish us if we try to punish some of his attacks with a dash grab.

Marth's grabs are for the most part useless except for at low percents because he can fsmash out of a dthrow or fthrow (not sure which) from 0%. He usually also follows up with a fair. His uthrow and dancing blade up can kill at really high percents, but he'll mostly be trying to kill with an utilt by then.

A character with such a lovely grab range as ours is pretty much useless? Nah, all of our throws have some use. even after 0%

Our grabs are more useful as our dthrow/uthrow and bthrow near the edge put him in uncomfortable positions.

In the air, he wins face to face, but we have the advantage below him and behind him because his dair/bair aerials are laggy and punishable if they miss. His fair/nair are the only things we have to worry about so just don't fly at him while he's flying at you. Instead, if he full hop or short hop fairs run under him and punish his landing. If you're above him the only thing he can do is uair so fast fall airdodge. Sometimes they wait for the airdodge and then uair.

Bair is a spacing move, I don't think we'll see someone flat out approach with Bair. So only if they're approaching will bair be as easy to punish as you state.
you're contradicting yourself btw

Marth can get ***** by our juggling and Pit has the tools to put him in the air (and keep him there). We all know the moves to put him in the air, dtilt, dthrow, usmash, and utilt from the ground. A good strategy is to SH airdodge inside his shield and use our frame 2 utilt. Once he is in the air he can't do much about our uair unless he randomly decides to down b, but I've never seen a Marth do that. If he airdodges the uair we can nair or dair to put him back in the air. If close enough to the ground, fastfall and usmash will put him back into the air after
his airdodge.


Yeah, it could be pretty easy to put us in the air, but as I stated earlier you don't have to tools to really juggle Marth (in the air)

Overall, Marth needs to be able to space and read drastically more than Pit does. He wants us in his comfort zone which is the length of his blade. All we have to do is stay away and shoot arrows until he gets in. When he gets in, stay close enough that you can shield and punish his moves, but if you mess up, his moves won't kill you. He really needs a bit of luck to get those tipper kills, but we may end up losing a stock early if we get fsmash tipped so be careful.

But if you mess up you may find yourself fighting to get back on stage. Really don't go in to the match with the idea of "If I goof up I won't die from this" yeah it may not be as severe as an IC chaingrab, but it adds up.

For stages, I don't think there is any particular stage where Marth has the advantage. Strike/Ban small stages or one's we can't escape by flying under. I always ban Yoshi's Island, but I will sometimes go to PS1. Cp the stage you are most comfortable with, though I bet Marth doesn't do too well on rainbow. You might also want to strike/ban Smashville just for the sole purpose that it's too comfortable for Marth mains. (He can platform cancel well there too) Final Destination is better against Marth than Smashville.


I would say 55:45 our favor.

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It's nothing stupid like 70:30 Marth like it was said back in '08. It feels like it's slightly in our favor. But hey in the end results the only people that can really know are the BBR.

anyway there is my 2 cents.

Can't do anything...really? Do the Marth's you play against not know what a shield button is?

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Ignoring sarcasm, but shielding while approaching is the only way to deal with it which is the norm.

Or utilt, upsmash Dolphin Slash. You know...those other moves we have that just happen to kill

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Those moves are easier to DI and they don't kill until later unless the utilt is a tipper.

I can only see this happening if the Marth doesn't recover low and uses his second jump way too early.

If we don't use our second jump and you do manage to mirror our fair......simple. We'll just do a DB, stop the momentum have our position changed around and just continue from there.

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If you focus too much on recovering low, you can get edgehogged and you will die or we will punish your landing lag on the stage. If the mirror shield comes between you and the edge of the stage then Marth will die because of his bad aerial mobility.

Oh and you could try and Mirror us on the edge but we'd still grab it....but backwards. xD It's freaky lol.

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I've actually done this several times with friends and we have a good laugh for a few minutes with the game paused.

Lies,Marth has the advantage in the air as well. It looks somewhat even horizontally but vertically we have you as juggle bait.

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Its the same yet opposite. You can read us and uair while we can do the same with a dair, we just have to wait longer, but our dair has more range imo.

A character with such a lovely grab range as ours is pretty much useless? Nah, all of our throws have some use. even after 0%

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You should elaborate on these uses. His grab range, especially his pivot boost is good, but what can he do after he throws us?

Yeah, it could be pretty easy to put us in the air, but as I stated earlier you don't have to tools to really juggle Marth (in the air)

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Our dair juggles Marth, we just bait an airdodge with uair. We can also shoot arrows upwards in case you forgot.

But if you mess up you may find yourself fighting to get back on stage. Really don't go in to the match with the idea of "If I goof up I won't die from this" yeah it may not be as severe as an IC chaingrab, but it adds up.

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Would you care to specify what exactly are you talking about lol. Getting back on stage may be difficult, but we can be as patient as we want with our planking ability, we can woi under the stage or even woi above out of Marth's reach and fall back to the stage.

Kola thanks for your contribution because we do need both sides of the argument to get a good discussion flowing.

- Kills earlier than Marth-
Going to go ahead and say this is pretty false. We've got such a larger pool of kill moves than Pit does. Pit's most reliable kill moves (Fsmash,Dsmash) are usually pretty staled by time we get to a decent kill percent. Now if you can land a bair, then yes that one move could potentially seem as if it could give Pit the advantage in killing. However, it's range is pretty terrible, and we're a spacing oriented character. Maybe if you can do a series of platform cancelling?

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I agree you do have a larger set of killing moves and are generally better at killing. Bair is i think harder to land on Marth than even MK personally. Tippers for a good Marth are as hard to land as people sometimes suggest. Marth also has such good stage control and shield pressure on Pit's short grab range that killing is hard.

I don't see why people are still under the impression that F-smash is staled though,D-smash might be a little. Everyone saves F-smash as D-smash is a good punisher. Decent range and comes out in 5 frames or Short Hop Nair comes out in 3 frames. Also worth pointing Dash attack can sometimes do the job at ~150% when you need to cover ground on landing lag such as DS' that go above the ledge. It also kills vertically and people are normally zoned into DI' everything Pit has vertically.

Don't really understand what you mean by using a series of Platform Cancelling, Please elaborate.

- Can punish whiffed dolphin slashes etc with quick smashes (Then again, who can't? Don't expect whiffs often.

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Completely fair point. Not a particular advantage. DS is a punisher not an attack and won't often be whiffed.

- Can chase Marth off-stage- Glair can challenge Marth in the air (Fair cancels your glide attack. It also has a lengthy start up and ending lag. I wouldn't recommend using it :<)

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True but obviously if its not an offstage clash then low Glair to cancel to many different options dpending on the slide length and obviously you can just cancel the glide to mixup and fastfall

I like taking Marth to Battlefield and then maybe Halberd if I lost. Battlefield is completely personal preference (although platforms do help Pit punish Marth), (NO )

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Platforms pretty much help everyone punish everyone else. Marths are generally gay with platforms but Pit's Uair and Nair do shield poke very well. Battlefield's a good Marth stage but i think its a good Pit stage too. I wouldn't counterpick to BF as i think their are better options but i wouldn't be scared off going there.

Pit can shark with what.....his horizontal uair? lol

Which adds to another problem. Pit can't abuse Marth's worst zone in the air (which is below him) unless the Pit is on stage.

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I don't understand what wrong with Uair. The long horizontal hitbox is what makes it so good. You DI so your not directly under your opponent so that you hit their hurtbox while protecting your own. Marth's Dair is incredibly and not a particularly good option going down. Maybe i've misunderstood you.

Can't do anything...really? Do the Marth's you play against not know what a shield button is?

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What he means is. It's completely safe as are all decent projectiles when used smartly (Dont use when they're close). Were not taking any damage where as Marth might.

- Safer kill setups (What setups? This goes back to my explanation of your killing theory)

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Aren't kills setups like Diddy Kong's Banana to DSmash or Falco's SH Silent laser (which gives frame advantage on hit) to BDacus. Neither of these characters have kill setups, unless you count things like Arrow loop to F-smash which i won't debate the usefulness ( or lack of) here.

I can only see this happening if the Marth doesn't recover low and uses his second jump way too early.

If we don't use our second jump and you do manage to mirror our fair......simple. We'll just do a DB, stop the momentum have our position changed around and just continue from there.

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The Mirror Shield gimp is hard to pull off but perfectly possible. you can catch the ledge afterwards but Pit should be on the edge hogging you. It is hard though.

A character with such a lovely grab range as ours is pretty much useless? Nah, all of our throws have some use. even after 0% [/QUOTE}

Yep that just isn't true Luckay. Marth's throws do have use. Neither charcter has anything guaranteed but Marth can pressure us from any of his throws the same way we do .

I don't understand the goofing up point either.

I would say this Match was even if i knew how to land a kill move on Marth but i'm gonna go 55-45 Marth as that is obviously a huge thing.

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Do me a favor guys.

When you guys finish a discussion, can you guys PM me the overall write-up of the match up? I can edit the MU thread for you guys if you want

Kola said:

But hey in the end results the only people that can really know are the BBR.

anyway there is my 2 cents.

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The BBR probably knows a lot about some matchups, but little about others. It comes down to who contributes the most to the information platter from the best of the best to determine this kind of knowledge.

In any case, I believe Marth is even with Pit. It can be somewhat Marth's favor, depending on the level either player is on I believe. I think that if both players know the matchup well it can very evenish. If it's at the highest level of play, Marth might trump Pit on certain neutrals/stages (BF,SV) and we can do better on the most polarized or wonky stages (FD/Picto/Lylat/PS1)

Just my opinion.

Nitrix said:

How exactly does Marth ledge trap Pit?

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standard trap, ff nair spaced outside getup attack range mix in dtilt. walk back and forth a little bit and sometimes ff fair. works very well allows marth to powershield arrows and react to get up actions easily

Damix91 said:

I think its Marth's favour but not for that though. Pit does not need to get back on the stage until Marth lets him, thats what arrows are for and and any attempt at Bair can be mirrorshielded, Fair'd, WOI for the quick ledge grab with invicibility frames ready for the MS gimp or edgehog or if Pit gets hit, he can just fly to the other side of the stage and start again. I think the problem with the match is how do we kill Marth?

EDIT: I also 2nd not going to Smashville. Marth's love all that platform cancelling.

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arrows don't mean that much to marth when every time he gets a hit in that position you either have to go back to that same bad, limited option scenario or you he starts aggressively edgeguarding you

why would you mirror/fair when you're high up there? bair also outranges a bunch of your options if he swings at the right time/pre-emptively. bair closes off your options when you're high and marth's fair is good when you're low/parallel. your only real options are to try and grab one or the other edge, and then marth is in a good position to set up again or he fights you onstage where his ground game makes encounters not in your favor

Pit's Advantages:


- Forces Marth to approach (Remember, it's only to a certain extent. We don't need to be in your face, just close enough to be able to sh fair you at the start of the arrow shot animation.)
- Kills earlier than Marth-
Going to go ahead and say this is pretty false. We've got such a larger pool of kill moves than Pit does. Pit's most reliable kill moves (Fsmash,Dsmash) are usually pretty staled by time we get to a decent kill percent. Now if you can land a bair, then yes that one move could potentially seem as if it could give Pit the advantage in killing. However, it's range is pretty terrible, and we're a spacing oriented character. Maybe if you can do a series of platform cancelling?

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Saying Pit doesn't kill well, does not mean that he kills later than Marth. Regardless, what your saying isn't completely true anyways. Dismissing Fsmash and Dsmash because you assume they will be stale isn't a viable reason to me. Pit has Usmash, Jab, UTilt, Dtilt, Nair, Angel Ring etc to deal with close range encounters. With that being said, I believe it takes 10 moves or something like that to refresh smashes. In a match that is as campy as this one, it takes one hit/throw from Pit to send Marth away. This leads to a fair amount of arrows from Pit which would definitely play a part in refreshing his smashes, if they are stale in the first place.

Pit's smashes should be fine

- Can punish whiffed dolphin slashes etc with quick smashes (Then again, who can't? Don't expect whiffs often.)

- Safer kill setups (What setups? This goes back to my explanation of your killing theory)

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Marth doesn't have fantastic kill setups, and he also has to approach Pit. This leads to Pit forcing Marth to take damage from arrows and approaching, and it also means that Marth needs to take a small chance when it comes to landing the KO move. Thus, Pit has viable oppertunities to rack up damage on Marth, and can punish Marth when he tries to kill more than Marth can punish Pit. Plus Pit has better smashes in the first place.

- Can chase Marth off-stage- Glair can challenge Marth in the air (Fair cancels your glide attack. It also has a lengthy start up and ending lag. I wouldn't recommend using it :<)

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I checked the hitbox videos and it does seem Marth's F-Air is slightly longer, but in the heat of a match this small difference is negligible anyways.

The lag regarding Pit's Glair shouldn't matter at all, since it isn't like Pit will use it in a situation where he can be punished by anything. The reason why it is safe is because Marth's recovery is fairly stiff. There are times when you can hit Marth and he has to take it or else the trajectory of his up-b will not reach the ledge. These are the times when Marth cannot F-air because then he will miss the window where he can Up-B to the ledge, and this leaves him open to attacks.

Also Pit could just Mirror Shield the f-air.

I like taking Marth to Battlefield and then maybe Halberd if I lost. Battlefield is completely personal preference (although platforms do help Pit punish Marth),

(NO )

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What are you saying No about

If you aren't DK or MK I wouldn't recommend counterpicking Marth to Battlefield. I mean it's our best neutral...imo

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Pit can shark with what.....his horizontal uair? lol

Which adds to another problem. Pit can't abuse Marth's worst zone in the air (which is below him) unless the Pit is on stage.

I'd say camp the ledge but it would get you guys stuck in the situation of a possible ledge trap. :/

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Yea I know Marth on BF isn't the best choice, but it really fits my style which is why I said that I pick it out of personal preference.

Why can't Pit harass Marth with his horizontal U-Air on the stage transform of Halberd? It is a guaranteed shieldstab.....I don't know why this is funny

Why can't Pit abuse Marth's weakspot in the air with a U-Air? This seems logical to me, Pit has a pretty sick U-Air

@clowsui. Pits not limited at the edge as much his opponents. I posted the video to show this. I was also talking about if he tries to challenge ledgecamping/planking with his bair so low not high.

oh, yeah no marth should be using bair like that lmao

also that is literally the ONLY thing that pit can do lol (even if it's annoying for marth) that's why i said if there's an LGL and pit HAS to come off the ledge he has a lot of trouble in that position. pit without an LGL can just whittle away the marth's reaction time by conditioning him w/ ~20 ledge grabs/ledge actions

hey guys its maharba on pulse's comp. not gonna go into detail as im about to leave but for now its 55:45 marth imo. we kill earlier unless he gets a crit near the edge or spikes at anything above 30%. we make him approach and have good counter pick stages like HALBERD and LYLAT. gtg later guys

Not sure it's really affected by LGL. You can ledgecamp and win within 8 mins. I think when Pit has to go in for the kill is when Marth dominates him and gets back in the game. I think it's unfair to say that's all Pit can do. Is that all every character that is outranges by Marth can do. Spacing is a two person process and good players can get in even though it's obviously still an advantage for Marth. Regardless of whether Pit can do more to Marth, An option which he can't do anything about is still a great option.

clowsui said:

oh, yeah no marth should be using bair like that lmao

also that is literally the ONLY thing that pit can do lol (even if it's annoying for marth) that's why i said if there's an LGL and pit HAS to come off the ledge he has a lot of trouble in that position. pit without an LGL can just whittle away the marth's reaction time by conditioning him w/ ~20 ledge grabs/ledge actions

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Wow Clowsui, seriously? Ledge play is not the only thing Pit has on Marth...

i meant on the ledge, sorry...shooting arrows from the ledge and being annoying there is the only thing that pit can do from the ledge vs marth's ledge trap.

onstage i agree that pit has some stuff particularly controlling marth's movement with arrows and using his annoying spotdodge/jab/ftilt. nevertheless pit's ground game can't compete with marth IMO

he's also able to control landing very well w/ arrows, aerial positioning etc. in fact i'd say that pit in terms of the air game goes even w/ marth

i see that kola seems to have the best theory here as it is realistic compared to most. and since i also have used both characters it is easier for me to see his logic. not to say the others are not right or that he isn't wrong on a couple things but i see his logic.
now that i have some time to do a good write up on this MU and since i honestly believe i have way more experiance in this MU than almost anyone else as it seems everyone in california uses marth, here goes.

wat marth has going for him:

pit makes marth approach but guys come on, just because we can make him approach, if you watch any marth's that matter, you will see that getting through projectiles is never really a problem for good marths as they can just shield or jab away projectiles or just air dodge through them (this one doesn't work really against pit but still its to make a point) otherwise marth would not still be positive against falco. since he has the fastest walk in the game that also helps him get in fast. up close marth has dtilt, ftilt, dancing blade, fair, nair, and grabs to keep his spacing (and we all know marth's are the best spacer's and i refuse to debate this with anyone). off stage while arrows make good for gimping don't think you will get the gimp if he is recovering high as he has options to deal with our arrows. however they HAVE to deal with those arrows or they WILL get gimped. in the air yes R@VYN that little bit of range does matter. marth has one of the best (if not the best) fair in the game and his airspeed is no laughing matter.
as for killing i will straight up laugh and humiliate the next person i see say it is hard for marth to get kills on us. Luckay im sorry but you are straight up wrong to say that marth's utilt, usmash, and dolphin slash aren't reliabe kill moves on marth's part. any marth that matter knows all the necessary spacing to get tippers on each and every single one of their moves and to question that skill is almost insulting as it is a hard thing to master. and utilt does not need tipper to kill us at about 135%-150%. dolphin slash near the edge of smaller stages like smashville can kill around 120%. usmash is so disjointed it is almost impossible not to tipper. marth can also edgeguard the way kola said. he can also run off stage and do a pivot DB into dolphin slash stage spike if you aren't careful and watchful. however i do agree that pit owns the ledge far better from either way (guarding or being guarded)

wat pit has

pit can camp on the bigger stages very well. pivot arrow combos into dash attack and grab if you do it at the right distance. up close pit has jab, grab, and dtilt. dtilt is his BEST move against marth up close as it has the same range as marth's fsmash, is faster than just about anything, and it pops them up so you can either just stay on the ground and bait and punish or go for the almost guarenteed sh fair. our jab also dominates the up close field and gets marth away from us so we can reset spacing. also as pit we naturally own the edgeguarding situation. we can jump away and arrow him which is pretty safe as marth has to put himself in a bad position to punish us. also from the stage we can just arrow him if he stays there on the ledge. as for killing i laugh at any marth that thinks pit won't kill early as i find it easy to get in a bair or fsmash near the edge when marth tries to get up. easiest way to land bair is bait watever get up they do on the ledge and punish with wing pivot ff bair. or just jab or pivot arrow into fsmash.

well im too tired to write up anymore but i think overall marth 55:45 when both are played at top notch.

clowsui said:

i meant on the ledge, sorry...shooting arrows from the ledge and being annoying there is the only thing that pit can do from the ledge vs marth's ledge trap.

onstage i agree that pit has some stuff particularly controlling marth's movement with arrows and using his annoying spotdodge/jab/ftilt. nevertheless pit's ground game can't compete with marth IMO

he's also able to control landing very well w/ arrows, aerial positioning etc. in fact i'd say that pit in terms of the air game goes even w/ marth

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Ok Now I understand. Yeah i agree. Marth's ledge trap does make it really hard to get back on. Nothing is remotely safe, just have to wait until the Marth loses his cool and slips up.

Maharba the Mystic said:

i see that kola seems to have the best theory here as it is realistic compared to most. and since i also have used both characters it is easier for me to see his logic. not to say the others are not right or that he isn't wrong on a couple things but i see his logic.
now that i have some time to do a good write up on this MU and since i honestly believe i have way more experiance in this MU than almost anyone else as it seems everyone in california uses marth, here goes.

wat marth has going for him:

pit makes marth approach but guys come on, just because we can make him approach, if you watch any marth's that matter, you will see that getting through projectiles is never really a problem for good marths as they can just shield or jab away projectiles or just air dodge through them (this one doesn't work really against pit but still its to make a point) otherwise marth would not still be positive against falco. since he has the fastest walk in the game that also helps him get in fast. up close marth has dtilt, ftilt, dancing blade, fair, nair, and grabs to keep his spacing (and we all know marth's are the best spacer's and i refuse to debate this with anyone). off stage while arrows make good for gimping don't think you will get the gimp if he is recovering high as he has options to deal with our arrows. however they HAVE to deal with those arrows or they WILL get gimped. in the air yes R@VYN that little bit of range does matter. marth has one of the best (if not the best) fair in the game and his airspeed is no laughing matter.
as for killing i will straight up laugh and humiliate the next person i see say it is hard for marth to get kills on us. Luckay im sorry but you are straight up wrong to say that marth's utilt, usmash, and dolphin slash aren't reliabe kill moves on marth's part. any marth that matter knows all the necessary spacing to get tippers on each and every single one of their moves and to question that skill is almost insulting as it is a hard thing to master. and utilt does not need tipper to kill us at about 135%-150%. dolphin slash near the edge of smaller stages like smashville can kill around 120%. usmash is so disjointed it is almost impossible not to tipper. marth can also edgeguard the way kola said. he can also run off stage and do a pivot DB into dolphin slash stage spike if you aren't careful and watchful. however i do agree that pit owns the ledge far better from either way (guarding or being guarded)

wat pit has

pit can camp on the bigger stages very well. pivot arrow combos into dash attack and grab if you do it at the right distance. up close pit has jab, grab, and dtilt. dtilt is his BEST move against marth up close as it has the same range as marth's fsmash, is faster than just about anything, and it pops them up so you can either just stay on the ground and bait and punish or go for the almost guarenteed sh fair. our jab also dominates the up close field and gets marth away from us so we can reset spacing. also as pit we naturally own the edgeguarding situation. we can jump away and arrow him which is pretty safe as marth has to put himself in a bad position to punish us. also from the stage we can just arrow him if he stays there on the ledge. as for killing i laugh at any marth that thinks pit won't kill early as i find it easy to get in a bair or fsmash near the edge when marth tries to get up. easiest way to land bair is bait watever get up they do on the ledge and punish with wing pivot ff bair. or just jab or pivot arrow into fsmash.

well im too tired to write up anymore but i think overall marth 55:45 when both are played at top notch.

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i agree with almost all of this...cept the doplhin slash kill % it doesnt kill till at least 130-140 2) you really shouldnt be above marth by yourself to get uair or utilt which means he has to work to get you in the air. Pit can land fairs in between marths fairs if you notice their attack pattern. Something you should be trying to do anyways... To me they both kill the same in the mu. Marth has to put pit in a position but pit has to punish or read.For the most part. and marth has more lag frames than any other character on his get-ups he has just a FEW extra frames of non-invincibility which leaves more than enough time to punish him every time he gets up if reacted to properly. Hyphen smash OoS is good for fighting FH fairs and such. If he dtilts close grab if he does it spaced well (which most likely will) jab. Dont roll behind too often as most marth's are conditioned to punish those on reaction. Be smart with it. Sh nairs,fairs are good for pit. Dont sh dair for pressure as you pretty much will get punished. And as far as marth getting through the projectile...so can metaknight. But you take advantage of the fact that that is what is on their mind. Use arrows as conditioning tools and controlling space which leads to much easier reads/punishes. I honestly have to say either 52:48 or 50:50. Both have advantages/disadvantages in each area that put them much to close to each other.

oh and once you get under him. Try your hardest to keep him in the air as long as possible and rack up that damage.

Pit has better CP's also. But marth does a bit better on (most) neutrals.

clowsui said:

i meant on the ledge, sorry...shooting arrows from the ledge and being annoying there is the only thing that pit can do from the ledge vs marth's ledge trap.

onstage i agree that pit has some stuff particularly controlling marth's movement with arrows and using his annoying spotdodge/jab/ftilt. nevertheless pit's ground game can't compete with marth IMO

he's also able to control landing very well w/ arrows, aerial positioning etc. in fact i'd say that pit in terms of the air game goes even w/ marth

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Eh, a little better. I think Pit actually has much more trouble against Marth in the air then on the ground, Marth properly spacing bair/fair/nair/uair from all options that Pit has is effectively a frame advantage from SHs. On the ground our jab, u-tilt, dsmash and fsmash are quicker I think than most of his ground options that close, but mostly Marth relies on staying just outside of Pit's range (as I've learned)

While everyone has good points, I believe we have summarized this matchup quite well. I'm changing my overall opinion to Kuro~'s view of 52:48 Marth which would be 50:50 if we aren't being that specific with the matchup.

bad *** i can settle for 52:48 . i think we should be specific like this on our match ups as that shows we actually give a damn about our mu thread and new pits will be more likely to learn more if we are specific. so anyone else (*cough* errr hrrmmkuromm *cough*) think we should talk specific stages now? i would say good counter picks are FD, halberd, and delphino. lylat too (lol 4/6 of the legal stages in japan. no wonder pit is 4th there). or should we just stick too the basic gameplay summaries and just list the stages to counter pick? i mean stage advantages are kinda obvious if you know how to play brawl but stage specific things are useful to know (like on halberd and YI brawl if you are on the inclines and use dtilt it changes the hit box actually making it longer and hitting above pit's front as opposed to just hitting the ground)

Maharba the Mystic said:

bad *** i can settle for 52:48 . i think we should be specific like this on our match ups as that shows we actually give a damn about our mu thread and new pits will be more likely to learn more if we are specific. so anyone else (*cough* errr hrrmmkuromm *cough*) think we should talk specific stages now? i would say good counter picks are FD, halberd, and delphino. lylat too (lol 4/6 of the legal stages in japan. no wonder pit is 4th there). or should we just stick too the basic gameplay summaries and just list the stages to counter pick? i mean stage advantages are kinda obvious if you know how to play brawl but stage specific things are useful to know (like on halberd and YI brawl if you are on the inclines and use dtilt it changes the hit box actually making it longer and hitting above pit's front as opposed to just hitting the ground)

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actually yes i do believe cp's would be very benefician to discuss with each matchup and im willing to include it in my write ups.

As for CP's go to FD, Delphino or Halberd. There's nothing special about Lylat. Ban BF unless your facing Mr. R where you ban SV because crazy Platform cancelling will be going on.

Damix91 said:

As for CP's go to FD, Delphino or Halberd. There's nothing special about Lylat. Ban BF unless your facing Mr. R where you ban SV because crazy Platform cancelling will be going on.

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I'd like to add pictochat to that list as well. at least, i've found it to be good at least.

I find it surprising Pit mains are suggesting this is an even Match up. It is clearly Marths favor, a distinct advantage of 60:40.

While Pit has some things going for him like forcing the approach and being effective at juggling Marth, Marth has so much more.

He kills us earlier as a general rule (Minus perhaps a Bair at stages edge), out spaces us in Melee, and is a quite resilient to Pits planking. He beats us in the air unless we are below and on the ground still edges us out with his Shield Game, DB, and just the range in general. He always has the faster move in DS and can us that among other things to make it very dangerous to pursue him off stage. Its much safer to just arrow him.

The melee range is a crippling factor and he makes Pits traditional strategy very difficult. That sounds like an advantage no?

-------Edit

P.S. Marths Like battlefield. A lot. Also gives us less space. Not the best place to go with his platform dominating tech (select U-Smash)

actually our dtilt has the same range as marth's fsmash just faster and our fresh fsmash kill marth at 120% easy even wih good DI. it is honestly just really stage dependent for the MU numbers as i don't really have problems with marth. and california's got marth's (both the top marth's in the US and ive played both)

im standng by my numbers of 52:48 which several agreed with me with i do say i could see where you could say 45:55 but 40:60? cmon man...thats like overhyping marth alot.

Maharba the Mystic said:

actually our dtilt has the same range as marth's fsmash just faster and our fresh fsmash kill marth at 120% easy even wih good DI. it is honestly just really stage dependent for the MU numbers as i don't really have problems with marth. and california's got marth's (both the top marth's in the US and ive played both)

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Yes a fresh F Smash kills 120ish. A number of Marths tippers kill us just as early if not earlier. Our d tilt is nice, but Marth has longer options in his own D-tilt I believe, besides him just SH Fair/Nairing us on the ground.

Kuro~ said:

im standng by my numbers of 52:48 which several agreed with me with i do say i could see where you could say 45:55 but 40:60? cmon man...thats like overhyping marth alot.

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52:48 just sounds silly. It's like the Pika boards. Either there is some kinda advantage or not. Saying a number like that is arbitrary in that you are suggest there might possibly be an advantage but the difference you suggest would only be recognizable by a computer. Whats the difference between a 52:48 match up and a 53:47?

I think Marth mains would be more inclined to agree with me, if not suggest a 65:35 (which I disagree with, as I don't see Marth as a counter but at a distinct advantage). So far we've just had a bunch of Pit mains talk about it minus Maharba who does admittedly have knowledge of Marth as your prior main yes? I'm gonna go invite some Marths, and I doubt many if any will suggest a neutral matchup.

Btw I dont say any of this with malice, only as my point view which I feel is realistic.

I feel this is somewhere between 55:45-60:40, Marth's advantage.

I just really don't find/feel Pit's move set is that effective against Marth at all, and it really comes down to how many smart mix ups Pit can use with his rolls, arrows and jabs and hopefully force over extension to get kills with bair/fsmash.

That's just my opinion though, I've gone over this match up too many times and pretty much over arguing it.

Lenus Altair said:

Yes a fresh F Smash kills 120ish. A number of Marths tippers kill us just as early if not earlier. Our d tilt is nice, but Marth has longer options in his own D-tilt I believe, besides him just SH Fair/Nairing us on the ground.



52:48 just sounds silly. It's like the Pika boards. Either there is some kinda advantage or not. Saying a number like that is arbitrary in that you are suggest there might possibly be an advantage but the difference you suggest would only be recognizable by a computer. Whats the difference between a 52:48 match up and a 53:47?

I think Marth mains would be more inclined to agree with me, if not suggest a 65:35 (which I disagree with, as I don't see Marth as a counter but at a distinct advantage). So far we've just had a bunch of Pit mains talk about it minus Maharba who does admittedly have knowledge of Marth as your prior main yes? I'm gonna go invite some Marths, and I doubt many if any will suggest a neutral matchup.

Btw I dont say any of this with malice, only as my point view which I feel is realistic.

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silly my ***. in no way is this 60:40 and for ur information i know about marth myself having mained him b4 as well. NOT only that but i consistently play with some really amazing marths. like i said i can argue and so can any1 else for 45-55. i believee its 48:52. Sound silly? possibly. Do i like doing it, yea. Being that specific fine cuz like in anything there is no clear cut answer unlike with ganon we have OPTIONS. THAT WORK. just sayin

Edit:move on to advantages/disadvantages at neutrals and CP's FOR pit

now...DISCUSS.

Kuro~ said:

silly my ***. in no way is this 60:40 and for ur information i know about marth myself having mained him b4 as well. NOT only that but i consistently play with some really amazing marths. like i said i can argue and so can any1 else for 45-55. i believee its 48:52. Sound silly? possibly. Do i like doing it, yea. Being that specific fine cuz like in anything there is no clear cut answer unlike with ganon we have OPTIONS. THAT WORK. just sayin
.

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There are plenty of ways it's 60:40 and don't make it sound like I'm foolish for even suggesting it. I'm not the only one who thinks it.I'm sorry if the fact that I didn't know your credentials was an insult, the only reason I know Maharbas is because of his avatar.

What I said hasn't been refuted.

He out ranges in Melee overall and can zone us there. He kills us earlier with multiple of his tippered moves finishing us off safety between 105-120% when we only have 2 moves that match that, Bair having range issues which is the primary problem with this match up, and F Smash, our biggest single move damage racker, having to be conserved to do so.

Our smashes are faster then his, but shorter ranged and again can be zoned. Marths jab and DB are all faster then everything we've got on the ground minus U-tilt, but that has negligible range which again is the issue here.

Planking against Marth is dangerous, and his ledge traps there limit our options greatly, putting it down to player skill and reads. It is not an advantageous position for us like it us against many other character.

In the air he beats us out. Sometimes the range difference is minimal, other times its egregious. Also while our fair's are similar lengths, his is SO much faster.

Also he almost always has the option to Dolphin Slash. It is no something to be used careless and can result in punishment sure, but OOS or in response to aireal pursuit it can be devasting. Super Armor frame 1-5 with a hit is nothing to scoff.

Now this is not to say Pit doesn't have tools to help. He can zone well with his arrows, does have an umber of attack options that are quick and relevant, and can gimp him with prediction or arrow usage. If Pit gets inside Marths optimum zone, things balance out. The trouble is he has to get there first. It is difficult to keep him away from the dead space we have between where its safe to fire an arrow and where we can actually strike in melee.

I stand by a 60:40. He has an advantage. As a Pit player you are forced to work harder to get in serious damage racking and the kill. Marth can do it safer.

I will admit however that stages play a large part in this match up. On a stage like BF Marth would retain that 60:40 advantage, but even a stage like FD starts to skew it ever so slightly more in our favor. On some stages I could see it being 55:45, and depending on your region, a stage may even put it as drastic as even. I'd personally try to get FD in starters and take him to Japes in a counter. It gives us a lot of breathing room, and the high ceiling is relevant when a number of his kill moves are effective vertically.

Lenus Altair, you're opinon is not remotely ridiculous seeing as 60:40 was the general consensus before this rediscussion. I also think the MU ratios arent a science. 48:52 does seem as a bit ridiculous to be honest.

He out ranges in Melee overall and can zone us there.

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Marth does outrange us in Melee OBVIOUSLY. Let's look more closely. One thing that helps Pit (almost all charcters actually) is that though his range beats us. His tippers on shield have more lag than normal helping Pit to close the gap. I.E SHFF fair and SHFF fair tipper are actually similarly punishable (though admitedly both arent very). It does allow you to time to get away from Marth's good zones and into his bad zones. Move away and apply arrow pressure or get right in his face so that his options are limited. Considering he's coming off shield disadvantage, if your in his face you should confident in winning the skirmish. I'm not saying Pit has the advantage on the ground just showing its not as bleak as people make it out to be.

He kills us earlier with multiple of his tippered moves finishing us off safety between 105-120% when we only have 2 moves that match that, Bair having range issues which is the primary problem with this match up, and F Smash, our biggest single move damage racker, having to be conserved to do so

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Yes he can kill us earlier though tbh i think 10% or so is fairly negligible. Conserve F-Smash and use other punishers. DSmash comes out a frame quicker. Or just use regular jab. It works well enough as a GTFO move and comes out on the same frame and does similar damage. Surely being able to kill Marth earlier is a better trade off than one more punisher in the arsenal.

Our smashes are faster then his, but shorter ranged and again can be zoned. Marths jab and DB are all faster then everything we've got on the ground minus U-tilt, but that has negligible range which again is the issue here.

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Marths jab it pretty irrelevant tbh. Marth's dont really approach with jab. DB is a threat but if you read it you can SDI and punish with Dair which leads to juggle traps.

Planking against Marth is dangerous, and his ledge traps there limit our options greatly, putting it down to player skill and reads. It is not an advantageous position for us like it us against many other character.

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What makes planking against Marth dangerous? His laggy Dair. The risk/reward is greatly in favour of Pit. Ledge traps assume we need to get up. If your really struggling Double tap WOI to the other ledge and do something then when Marth has less time to set up.

In the air he beats us out. Sometimes the range difference is minimal, other times its egregious. Also while our fair's are similar lengths, his is SO much faster.

Also he almost always has the option to Dolphin Slash. It is no something to be used careless and can result in punishment sure, but OOS or in response to aireal pursuit it can be devasting. Super Armor frame 1-5 with a hit is nothing to scoff.

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This is all completely fair.

I think Mid-range arrows really help in this MU actually. Force marth to airdodge into the ground and use the lag.

That's all