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G&W's match-ups for the BBR- IMO

Vinnie

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:metaknight: -1
:snake: -1
:diddy: -2
:falco: -1
:wario: -1
:marth: -2
:popo: -2
:olimar: -2

:pikachu2: 0
:dedede: 0
:lucario: 0
:zerosuitsamus: 0
:toonlink: +1
:kirby2: +2

:fox: 0
:rob: +1
:pit: 0
:peach: +1
:dk2: +1

:luigi2: 0
:wolf: +1
:sheilda: +1

:sonic: 0
:ike: +1
:sheik: 0
:ness2: +1
:pt: +1

:squirtle: 0
:ivysaur: +3
:charizard: +2
:yoshi2: +1
:lucas: +2
:mario2: +2
:bowser2: +2
:falcon: +3
:samus2: +3
:jigglypuff: +4
:link2: +1
:zelda: +2
:ganondorf: +3
 

Seagull Joe

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I feel GaW vs Wolf is even. What does GaW have that makes this matchup +1 his favor at all? GaW needs to be very careful in this matchup just because shine ****s up everything.
 

Vinnie

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To be fair, I don't have much exp in this matchup. I've only played JJ and I 2 stocked him. I feel like it's pretty evenish onstage and it's like 7:3 offstage lol. I'm pretty good at not getting hit by dsmash, too. Also, if you fsmash my shield, I get a free tipper dsmash oos.
 

A2ZOMG

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:olimar: : :gw: is between 6:4 and 65:35. It's really hard when the Olimar techs dthrow and camps hard. It's extremely hard to approach.

:popo: is g&w's 2nd worst matchup, behind :marth:.
It's not that bad if your opponent techs D-throw, you just have to be smart with followups and make sure that your commitments are both safe and consistent at covering options on a read. Techchase F-air is really underused for instance.
 

A2ZOMG

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More like Boss vs Vinnie is even, but who knows lol.

I dunno, I feel Wario and Snake are closer matchups than suggested, especially when compared to Falco and Metaknight.
 

MintyFlesh

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More like Boss vs Vinnie is even, but who knows lol.

I dunno, I feel Wario and Snake are closer matchups than suggested, especially when compared to Falco and Metaknight.
Come back to new york and get last noob
 

A2ZOMG

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90% of the cast vs Snake can be basically summed up like that.

Most characters, G&W included, technically don't have trouble handling Snake's tools individually, but messing up is unaffordable.
 

-Ominous-

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Wait, so Skeik, (Who's a girl, btw) has it even against G&W, but Zelda/Sheik has a disadvantage? I mean, the use of both of them is just having Zelda for killing, and Sheik for damage racking pretty much.
 

A2ZOMG

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Zelda can't do anything against G&W. Using Zelda against G&W is pointless and counterproductive when Sheik outclasses her at everything, including kills in that particular matchup.
 

AyatoK26

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Zelda can't do anything against G&W. Using Zelda against G&W is pointless and counterproductive when Sheik outclasses her at everything, including kills in that particular matchup.
On the Zelda part, that's true. From the POV of a Zelda main, GW is our worst matchup, followed by Olimar.

With that being said, switch the Zelda ratio to +4 or +5 cause it's his easiest MU and that's all for now.
 

phi1ny3

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I thought use of Zeik implied you didn't have to use both, but the option was there. It's not like you're forced to switch to Zelda after you lose a stock, unlike PT.
 

Alphicans

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Shelda is using both characters IF necessary. If one is not needed/disadvantageous you use the best match-up out of the two for shelda.

Yes fox is even.
Falco is no worse than -1 for sure.
 

phi1ny3

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No wonder why people think she should be lower on the tier list combined than as sheik alone lol.

I agree w/ what Alphicans said, why else would "Zeik" be higher than Sheik alone if Zelda weighs both characters down if you're "forced" to use her? imo makes no sense. The duo is higher because Zelda helps strengthen some of sheik's otherwise horrible counter MUs like ICs and Pikachu so that they're more manageable. That and the occasional MU where Zelda becomes a semi-viable kill option (no, MK/S-A tier does not usually count as viable for Zelda to land a kill move outside of maybe Pikachu/ICs, most Sheik's will only transform contrary to that previous statement if they think the opponent doesn't have a clue as to how to avoid Zelda/**** her back lol).

btw I agree that Zelda gets ***** by G&W, there's not a lot zelda can do against G&W's edgeguarding, aerials, and juggling.
 

phi1ny3

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Yeah, Sheik DDD would be significantly harder w/o Zelda, and luckily DDD is so ineffective at approaching/forcing an approach in the MU Zelda's actually usable lol.

Same w/ those others, apparently Zelda Pika is like 40:60/45:55, although I don't see why entirely lol. But imo Zelda's a good option just until you get out of CG percents for Sheik, because Sheik actually does well against pika after that (air release -> DACUS ftw)
 

Today

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I don't think Olimar or ICs are that hard. ='/
Or at least ICs. I'd say 40:60 ICs favor.

Olimar I can SEE why you may think it's that hard, but if you never play the matchup/have zero experience you're going to get wrecked. I think this is also 40:60.
Although Oli has A LOT of things on GnW, GnW still has things he can take advantage of vs. Oli.
Oli's tech roll is pretty bad, he's easy to juggle, doesn't handle dtilt well, and landing kills is easier on Olimar than some characters (again, he's easy to predict in the air so landing a kill in the air is good. And since his tech rolls are bad that's also another good option).
I agree with Diddy.
Luigi should not be even. x__x; Should be in our favor.
Luigi, like Olimar, is easy to deal with in the air. He has a poor "air defense" and GnW takes advantage of that extremely well. It's also a bit hard for Luigi to get in as well. Hm..
.. some other things I see I disagree with but I'll add those later.
Personally I think Wario is a 45:55 Wario's favor match up.. although I can see 40:60.
 

A2ZOMG

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Personally I think Wario is a 45:55 Wario's favor match up.. although I can see 40:60.
I don't even see how G&W loses to be frank. Sure it isn't exactly easy to land the kill on Wario, but G&W has some pretty sick tools for preventing Wario from ever getting in safely.
 

Today

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But that's just it. GnW has an extremely tough time killing Wario.
I also think Wario has an easier time getting in GnW and staying in pretty well.
At the same time, I do agree that GnW has a lot of little things on Wario as well... which is why I don't mind it being 45:55; however, I can see it being 40:60.
 

A2ZOMG

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The way I see it, G&W has no trouble dealing obscene amounts of damage to Wario given his better aerials. Stale moves kinda gets in the way of kills, but I feel if G&W users simply capitalized on D-throw better, the matchup would push towards evenish to in their favor depending on how many good reads they got.

I feel part of the problems G&W users have killing can be traced to how G&W's D-throw game is underdeveloped (if I have enough time, I'm going to research D-throw techchase options more in depth, because I feel it's ESSENTIAL to know this stuff). It's just an option that G&W users could use better in general that can set up kills much more easily and reliably than some of the other things G&W can do. I feel that it isn't even particularly hard for G&W to get grabs on Wario given his solid Jab game and due to Wario also lacking truly reliable safe KO setups, not to mention it really should not be understated how well G&W walls Wario's air game, which affects how Wario has to space against G&W. The way I see it, a G&W who gets a lot of good reads from D-throw will likely come out advantageous in this particular matchup.

Like it baffles me how long nobody has used techchase F-air. It's a totally safe KO setup that is guaranteed on a read, and generally speaking it's usually not hard for G&W to get grabs or to condition people to techroll away from him.

To emphasize how much grabbing Wario matters, I believe that if G&W actually had a consistent air release on Wario, we would be looking at a 65/35 or 7/3 matchup in G&W's favor, just since we do damage so much more easily, and because it's not actually hard for G&W to grab Wario. Instead, we have to actually know what we can do out of D-throw, but it's enough to make up for the difficulty of normally landing a kill move. If the average G&W user steps up their D-throw game, I don't think we actually lose to Wario.
 

Alphicans

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Yeah but... Grabbing wario is very hard.

Fair is a really great move in this match-up.... for damage sadly. Killing wario is impossible, and if wario gets those insane reads with waft this match-up is ****ing hard. I think we lose solidly in this match-up.
 

A2ZOMG

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Grabbing Wario is NOT hard for G&W. Did you even read what I said?

It's not a simple explanation, but the fact of the matter is that Wario has holes in his game especially when fighting against someone like G&W, who has a lot of aerials that he cannot challenge directly. This HUGELY affects the way Wario has to space against G&W. Wario's closeup game is also worse than G&W's, and G&W can control Wario very well up close with his Jab, especially since Wario does not have any fast combo breakers to interrupt G&W's grab followup besides dodging.

In my experience against Wario, and from watching matches of G&W vs Wario, G&W users never really have trouble grabbing Wario when it's necessary. They also do MUCH better in the matchup when their D-throw techchase games actually work, though I feel that techchasing is an area that is universally underdeveloped for all G&Ws.

Yes we need F-air for damage, but stale moves would be MUCH less a problem if G&W users actually knew how to techchase with D-throw. Even for just basic followups like D-tilt and Dash attack. That alone would be enough to solve G&W's problems killing, not to mention the fact we can TECHCHASE into F-air.
 
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