Sonic Matchup Export : Donkey Kong

Pure speed matched against pure power. Sonic puts out amazing damage against Donkey Kong and kills late, while Donkey Kong can take stocks early but has trouble catching the Blue Blur. What could be more demoralizing than taking 40 damage from one little mistake or dying at 70% on a single read.

Don't forget to talk about stages folks!

Get my bby will in here plz <3
I'll rundown how I feel the matchup should be played from sonic's side in a bit. Doing world history hw atm.

Namedrop, every, single, n***a Donkey Bong player out there.

This MU is even and I refuse to believe otherwise.

The only thing I'm not completely sure of is stage CPs. Seems like wherever you can go; either for personal preference, or because it might actually help Sonic in some way, DK can do the same things too.

Also Tesh you stole my TL;DR. This is basically an even MU just because things can go either way, and it's best just to be patient so that more often than not the tide of the battle can wave in your favor. Go for greed and you'll soon find yourself on the opposite end of Donkey's arms and being killed faster than you can say "we're blasting off again~!"

Kinzer said:

Namedrop, every, single, n***a Donkey Bong player out there.

This MU is even and I refuse to believe otherwise.

The only thing I'm not completely sure of is stage CPs. Seems like wherever you can go; either for personal preference, or because it might actually help Sonic in some way, DK can do the same things too.

Also Tesh you stole my TL;DR. This is basically an even MU just because things can go either way, and it's best just to be patient so that more often than not the tide of the battle can wave in your favor. Go for greed and you'll soon find yourself on the opposite end of Donkey's arms and being killed faster than you can say "we're blasting off again~!"

Click to expand...

Picto/YI work fine. DK loves those stages too, but our invincible glitch is far far superior to theirs. Their up b glitch is just a way of getting off the ledge. Ours goes way beyond.

What you really want to avoid are small stages like Brinstar and Battlefield, where he can pressure you with back air and hide under platforms.

DK gets destroyed by spindash combos. Good punishing with ASC lands 30+ damage easily at low percents and sets up for juggles. He is a huge target with slow aerials (and gaping blind spots) so he gets juggled hard and you can safely go for Uair KOs.

WedginatorX said:

Get my bby will in here plz <3
I'll rundown how I feel the matchup should be played from sonic's side in a bit. Doing world history hw atm.

Click to expand...

I'm all over this Wedge bby <3 thanks for the shoutout.

Alright, I wrote an essay on this matchup (with DK bias obv) but I think it will be really useful to post here for you guys. As far as stages go btw, take DK to FD if he doesn't ban it, otherwise Pictochat/Yoshi's bc Sonic's spin priority is nuts with that ledge glitch. (Pleeeeease take me to Yoshi's ^_^) Ban Brinstar.

Here's the essay:

"Haha this is perfect! I just came back from 8 hours of training with Wes and Bum last night, so I can tell you anything you would want to know about the DK vs Sonic matchup =)

Oh and Cable, in all honesty I think the matchup is close to even just because of how fast Sonic is compared to DK, so you have that part right- that DK has trouble. But DK definitely does not lose to Sonic, he has all the tools and KO power to take him out and can survive to over 200% each stock if played correctly. You do have to space very well though to avoid being comboed, because when Sonic hits you- you will be comboed.

In general, here is my take on the DK vs Sonic matchup:

- In terms of approaches, your safest bet is to space retreating b-airs to disrupt Sonic's approaches, or to approach him with grounded up-b. Grounded up-b will either clash or beat spin dash, and is an excellent approach against Sonic at any given time.

- I agree with Demp, disrupting his spin dash is key since that is his most predictable, yet effective approach. If you see him charging a spin dash, depending on the distance between you and Sonic, you can space a down b. More than likely if he knows he will not be able to avoid running into it, he will stop charging it and cancel into a stationary position. If you are relatively far away from Sonic and can see his spin dash approach coming, I would suggest running away (thus baiting his approach) and buffering a down-b. If he has already committed to his approach, the hitboxes behind DK will beat the spin dash if you time it correctly. Also, jab and d-tilt can disrupt the spin dash but they are very hard to time. Do not try to f-tilt the spin dash because it is too slow and you will mostly likely be punished since he can wait for the lag afterward to come in and hit you.

- In close combat, jab is your best friend. If you ever find an opening, jab to jab combo works very well, as well as jab to grab if you tipper the first jab. D-tilt to down b still works great against him if you ever find yourself behind his shield, thus in the position to use d-tilts. When I grab Sonic, I almost always back throw to get him into the air to allow for juggling with b-airs and u-airs. If you are at the edge though, I've found that cargo d-throw, to instant ledge grab, to falling b-air from the ledge can work very well. If your b-air is fresh enough or if Sonic is at a high enough percent, this is a legitimate way of killing him if you catch him off guard.

- Sonic's up-b--> very annoying, I agree. Watch out for the spring off stage as it can steal your double jump and end up gimping you completely. Do your best to avoid it, although you can utilize the invincibility frame during DK's up-b to get through it without a problem. At all costs avoid the up-b to u-air , since this is Sonic's best way of killing DK at low percents. Other than that he is not going to kill you unless you try to challenge an f-smash, fall into a d-smash, or are baited into a b-air.

- If you are still grounded and he has used up-b, try foxtrotting around to bait the d-air. If you are able to time it extremely well, up smash beats it (though not recommended) but it is easiest if he has d-aired into a platform right above you. You can also run past the d-air and pivot grab, or just shield and grab him out of it. Also, when sonic has run out of jumps, has stopped using homing attacks and is forced to up-b from under the stage, you can instant ledge grab to force him right above you. This gets you a free u-air and is a good way of killing him or dealing sure damage. If you can read his up-b missing the edge and going onto the stage, you can space a charged d-smash since Sonic is COMPLETELY vulnerable toward the end of his up-b. This is probably one of the more satisfying ways to KO him =) You can also simply grab him out of his up-b, and if you allow for an air release by not pummeling or throwing him, he will fall off of the stage, unable to recover.

- SA punch beats everything Sonic can throw at you, the difficulty is landing one on him. The most effective ways I have landed sure punches are when Sonic is charging an f smash when you are holding onto the edge (they seem to like doing that lol). Ledge hop punch is a valid punish given you DI it onto the stage, also I have discovered that ledge hop headbutt punishes this as well (into d-smash/f-smash/punch)

Ok, well maybe this is more specific than what I thought it would be lol. If you guys have any more questions I will be glad to assist, get at me on aim: smartguy41112. If I remember anything else I will def post it up."

Oreo (Excel) said:

Ripple thinks Sonic has the advantage, I think DK has the advantage. We both hate the match-up. I don't understand that match-up at all.

Click to expand...

Usually the character that can camp really well is in the advantage, and in this case that's sonic. However, since Sonic dies so early due to DK's massive punish/KO potential, it's about even imo.

I honestly think that safest way to beat DK is to try to time him out on a big stage, although no sonic has ever tried that vs me lol.

I have a lottt to say about this matchup, and I'll be on later so keep it coming.

Broccoli Kong said:

Tons of stuff.

Click to expand...

I'm so glad that someone actually took their time to learn about Sonic before coming into a Sonic match up discussion. Such a breath of fresh air. Your educated perspective will be very valuable to the discussion. Thank you.

I pretty much agree with just about everything you have said so far.

I did want to add small tidbit here:

Broccoli Kong said:

- SA punch beats everything Sonic can throw at you, the difficulty is landing one on him.

Click to expand...

Just wanted to note a fun fact that if you DON'T time your super armor right, then a Sonic forward smash is actually capable of outreaching your Donkey Punch. So, I would not recommend trying to use it to as a way of beating Sonic's forward smash because it is probably not worth the risk of giving us a kill (if you're high enough % that is).

^that situation you described sounds more like a spacing issue than timing.

I mean, people do have a tendency to try to attack landing lag.

I thought SA punch beat everything that everyone can throw at you.

Can you get grabbed during super armor? 'cause it won't beat that... not that it's always relevant to the MU, but it might have an occasional use if it works.

Yea you can.

Tenki said:

^that situation you described sounds more like a spacing issue than timing.

I mean, people do have a tendency to try to attack landing lag.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure. I haven't done it in awhile, but I thought that if Sonic won the collision, that it had knock-back (which would mean there was no super armor at that moment), but my memory might be flawed.

It actually is possible to punish DK's fully charged SA Giant Punch, but if you're thinking of trying to beat it out directly with an f-smash... lol. The SA is just that, supah armorrr. It exists on frames 17-20 of the attack, so even before the hitboxes come out for the move which I'm sure you've noticed. The frames the punch hits on are 18 (the shoulder hit box behind DK), and 19-22.

Basically, you'll have to outspace the punch and wait for the duration of the attack to end to be able to punish it. If you space perfectly to "trade" with the attack, DK will take the damage, but Sonic will go flying haha. If you know the range of the punch well, you can stutter step back into an f-smash after the final hitbox frames of the attack. But beware, DK's Giant Punch has like... almost no lag whatsoever. It's verrrry misleading. Often times he can d-smash right after and catch unsuspecting foes.

If DK is falling from the air (common) and landing with an SA Giant Punch, he'll probably be falling toward you. Your best bet is obviously to shield/power shield, but if you wanted to try and punish it preemptively, the absolute craziest option that I've seen is to simply move to where DK is landing... and up-b lol. It seems that the spring goes just high enough to catch DK before his punch hitboxes come out. Man the DK boards are probably gonna hate me for telling you guys this stuff xD

DK's ledge hopped punch onto the stage can be countered by simply walking up and grabbing DK in mid air. Yes, grabs > super armor. The reason here is that DK first has to rise, and doesn't have as much time to put out his punch hitboxes safely. When he is rising, you can grab him or possibly hit him before frame 17 so as to avoid the SA frames.

Our f-smash's hit box is large enough that our hitbox will hit your hand without us being hit by your hitbox when they collide. But, if you have super armor, than you'll just take damage and we'll go flying like you said.

I would never try predicting a Giant Punch and trying to beat it out with f-smash. That would be wayyy too risky for me lol. I was actually more of making the suggestion that Donkey Kong mains should not try to use Giant Punch to hit a Sonic who they catch charging a forward smash. It might seem tempting to go "LOL GIANT PUNCH!!" but the risk wouldn't be worth it. If you catch us charging a forward smash, wait for the whiff and punish, but don't try to challenge it with Giant Punch, because it just isn't worth your risk.

If Sonic is charging an Fsmash just make sure you land the Giant Punch directly into him so you aren't outranged. Its not like he can do sliding Fsmashes.

magnificentmarth said:

Our f-smash's hit box is large enough that our hitbox will hit your hand without us being hit by your hitbox when they collide. But, if you have super armor, than you'll just take damage and we'll go flying like you said.

I would never try predicting a Giant Punch and trying to beat it out with f-smash. That would be wayyy too risky for me lol. I was actually more of making the suggestion that Donkey Kong mains should not try to use Giant Punch to hit a Sonic who they catch charging a forward smash. It might seem tempting to go "LOL GIANT PUNCH!!" but the risk wouldn't be worth it. If you catch us charging a forward smash, wait for the whiff and punish, but don't try to challenge it with Giant Punch, because it just isn't worth your risk.

Click to expand...

Personally? As a DK main, I can tell you that I nor any other DK would even attempt to punish something like that without a fully charged punch and timing it to land during the super armor frames lol.

Also, knowing the spacing of Sonic's f-smash, I wouldn't challenge it directly. Rather, I would wait until after his attack and punish the lag afterwards.

It's also interesting to note that as Sonic has a sort of backward stutter step built into his f-smash, so does DK in his Giant Punch. It's more of a side step really, bc he pulls back just before he swings his fist. He can use this to avoid properly spaced attacks, and immediately punish. Say, if DK was in tipper range of Sonic's f-smash? If he has all 10 charges he can instantly punch which will pull his body away from the f-smash, followed by an immediate punish of his own. =x

DK's f-smash however, has a forward stuttered movement. At times I've found myself caught in a tight spot, charging f-smash lol. Whether by accident, a poor decision, or a mind game doesn't much matter. What matters is that all is not lost! If an opponent tries to punish you from either directly above or behind DK, he can time the release so that his body lurches forward. This distortion of his hurtbox causes punishes to either mis-hit him (not sweet spotting) or to miss altogether. Keep this in mind. Sigh, I'm divulging a lot of secrets here guys, take notice =P


Edit: Btw LOL at not being able to type "mis" + "hit" without it being censored. It's a word Smash World Forums!

Oreo (Excel) said:

You could just say "sour spot"

Click to expand...

True, lol. Didn't think of that. Anyway, idk how much more I will be able to post before commencing my trip to Pound 5. So if any of you guys are going, play me in friendlies/MM me if you wanna know more about the matchup. It's one of my specialties =)

just some quick random thoughts about Sonic/DK

Its very even IMO.

DK has to basically not get read mcuh and play very safe with his great range to prevent shield grab punishment, and anticipate spin dashes with move like jab and down B. he has to tools to keep sonic out. combined with his power adbantage, on paper he has a solid advantage.

the problem is that Sonic main strength, his follow up game off a single read can devastate DK badly. I dont think there is any reliable method for DK to get sonic off of him once he gets in. Out of all the heavies in this game, to me DK in many ways is the easiest to deal with because as Sonic every option for Dk can be responded with shiled grabs after the initial hit. Horrible sidestep, which enocurages good DKs to simply jab instead, (and try for grab after jab1) and horrible airdodge combined with a slow dair makes Dk look pretty free to follow ups at times. I dont have much problem out manuvering him. honestly. If sonic can't get grabbed by DK, that helps out tons to me.

DK seems best against Sonic after hes landed a grab, he appears to have good momentum in this match, and allows him to make reads that take advantage of his range and power. Unless DK makes a very good read hes not killign Sonic unless he gimps him, not that easy. Same goes for Sonic.

Sonics inability to kill give DK more room for error though, and safe zoning tends to give the DK the time he needs to stay alive long enough to look for the read he needs to kill sonic or at least damage him tons before he gets KO'd.

DK isn't hard to kill. He is just heavy. There is a distinct difference there that seperates him from Metaknight, Wario etc. He will be dead from an Fsmash much earlier than MK from an upthrow because he just can't cover his landings or safely space and avoid kill moves as well.

One thing I want to add about DK is being wary of his grab release animation on the ground. Its 10 frames shorter than everyone else so don't be greedy with pummels. Especially if YOU are at high percents. If he mashes out, he can hit you for free and it will hurt. He can do alot of painful stuff at close range in under 10 frames.

I've seen cases where DK's Jab 1 trajectory puts the opponent right in the path of "The Twin Hammers of Africa" Dsmash, so if it works on Sonic, there's an under-10 frame setup that's gonna hurt.

Do not take DK, or let DK take you, to Jungle Japes if it is legal. He's never going to die thanks to the huuuuge blastzones and his UpB Brake (and he can land in the water to cancel out the helpless state), he can Cargo-carry you into the water (it IS possible to break out of Cargo-carry quickly by just holding up on the control stick during the throw, but if you're at high percentage it's not even going to matter), and he can control the platforms very well with Bair, ftilt, and Ground Slam. I'm not sure about other CPs he's a beast in other than Brinstar (monkey in a small cage and all that), but Brinstar and Japes will likely be DK's go-to stages, so if you ban one, expect the other if they're both available.

Yea DK's jab 1 pulls your towards him. He can also dtilt or ftilt you out of the release and Dsmash is frame 10 so if you don't buffer a shield, it can still hit you on frame 11.