The Dangerous Seductress: Zero Suit Samus mu thread( AND NO PIT ISNT GAY lol)

OK! Lets get this ball rollin. Any discussion relevant to mu will be discussed here ratios at the bottom of your post dont post a ratio w/o specific relevant info. k thx.

relevant being...
advantages/disadvantages of stages
cp's
ban's
bread n' butter moves
Things to watch out for
How to approach it
things to keep in mind
etc. etc.





Go!

okay while i was at winter game fest i had the opportunity to get some great friendlies against a good zss player and also ive played against some people back in cali who used her at a competitive level. this match up is close but honestly pit has the advantage 55:45 imo. i mean u could argue 50:50 but i honestly think that when both chars are played at max level the former is where it's at. here goes

ground game:
like most MUs, zss has to approach us. now while her she can outrange us with her side b honestly the range game on all of her tilts is matched and/or outprioritized by our dtilt (same range as marth's fsmash but faster and far less punishable for those who don't know), our ftilt (which can also kill her easier do to her weight), our dash away>instant pivot arrow (based on spacing can combo aside from just being awesome), and our 3hit jab. with these tools + the fact that they all out prioritize her moves (side b excluded) pit can easily win the ground game as long as he plays smart (aka know what move to use when). zss has a terrible grab but we do have to watch out for it as it is very long. however our grab game overall is better than hers. and while the saying goes "a good zss should not be getting gimped by anybody" honestly that is not the case here in this match up. do to her lightweight and our ability to rack damage safely all it takes is one well timed ftilt, bair, or dsmash at i believe around 70% kinda near the edge (we have some leeway on ledge distance) and we can get easily the gimp. our ff bair eats her tether recovery right up plus we got arrows to eat jumps (not that hard to eat all 3 of them with arrows) plus we gots woi ledge regrab to just stay there.

air game:

whoever is below the other wins. however our dair is more dangerous. but on the flip side of that coin her uair is better in this mu (as always since she does have the best uair). we both have great bairs. and we both have good fairs. pretty even here. not to much say

Edit: i 4got to mention that it is possible to learn to mirror shield her side b on reation and punish her hard that way

btw just asked the zss boards 4 there input

Start by rapeing her.

In the start of the match most zamus players will get rid of 2 of their armor peices and use the third to approach and attack you. They will be cautious with this due to our reflectors but something else that we can use to take control of get rid of the armor peice is a wingdash. The wind prevents the peice from hitting us and it lets us get closer and get it under our control or off the stage. Just something to keep in mind.

I played Sassy a few times the past two days at pound. If you started this discussion before this weekend I would have been more inclined to ask Nick Riddle to play a few games.

I also think that Pit has this matchup at least 55:45

Although, the kid is a troll we can **** ZSS at the beginning if we're smart. Those armor pieces are VERY strong projectiles and she can't use them on us lol. We can spam her with arrows to keep the pressure on then go for the armor ourselves. If she has one in her hand we can pretty much approach with angel ring and she can't do anything. Then we can grab the pieces for ourselves and use our amazing glide toss combos.

Arrows destroy her game so much. ZSS is easy to run away from. Her close range game relies on her dsmash combo's which we can avoid if we just stay out of her way or roll behind her. Her jab combo is good, she usually uses that after dash attack so if you don't shieldgrab the dash attack fast enough expect jabs. Her utilt is pretty much a gtfo move since it's almost as fast as ours, frame 3 I think.

Maharba was right about her side b. This weekend was my first time playing a ZSS offline and it's easily telegraphed, I mirror shielded it a couple times. Side b has so much reach and great knockback so she spams it a bunch to get kills, but the kill part of it only hits mid-range so stay the **** away or get in close and take minimal damage and we can avoid that too.

ZSS randomly uses neutral b to get in stuns, but we can reflect that too so no problemo.

Predict when she's going to grab and spot dodge it and gives us a free anything.

I disagree with Maharba about gimping a ZSS. A good ZSS won't waste jumps like that because they know we're trying to gimp them away with arrows. They can pretty much eat them or airdodge the arrows until they are in tether range where they have options. FF bair will get their tether recovery if they just hang there and since the hitbox stays out it will gimp her even if she tries to pull up. Still, that being said good ZSS's can get back on stage just fine.

The only thing I think that she shuts down is our planking game. We are safe if we arrow plank and she is far from the stage, but we can't uair plank. If we uair plank she can charge a dsmash and get us with that. If we're stunned in that position then its either a bair stage spike or a down b spike. Not good.

Other than that we win in the air. Her uair is very quick, but we can avoid that by moving to the side in the air. Her bair has good enough knockback to kill as well, but our bair is better. She barely uses nair, and usually only fairs if she gets a dsmash stun in and she never dairs because that has terrible ending lag. Her down b on stage is slow and can be easily punished, but it has killing power and the hitbox stays out for as long as she is in that sexy mid air pose.

So yeah, 55:45 us.

btw angel ring works well against her, I think the only thing she can do is try to grab it or side b which we should see coming in time anyway.

I like CPing her to Delfino to get rid of the stupid armor pieces. I never tried using Pit against her, but usually those armor pieces decide the outcome of the first stock. They bounce like crazy when thrown against the floor and they hurt like hell, throw them out as soon as you can. If you have good item control, then you could probably use them against her but I don't like risking it.

i don't know about other people but if i get an armor piece that first stock and most of the second is mine. if she uses em it don't bother me too much cause i gots crazy item skill with pit. but not with my other chars for some reason (except my marth wit a banana)

How does CP-ing to Delfino get rid of the armour pieces?

I almost never play ZSS, the most I know is to watch out for the spacing of her side-b...that move always catches me offguard

delphino and halberd don't get rid of the items. they get rid of their effectiveness. hide on the edge and shoot arrows through the stage and wait the items out. seriously if she throws them at you that is gonna be so projected due to ur placement that u will either take em or dodge em and then they are gone.

and don't forget that if we reflect those powerful items and it hits it does more damage and knockback and it stays that way iirc. so the more u reflect it the more damage u control. if u can take hold of a reflected piece u can pull off some seriously gay combos especially with the bounce>dair defense. hell throw in some woi catching>bair while it's still bouncing and damn dude, damn. at least thats wat i think he meant. anyways whether it's what he ment or not it's wat im saying

and don't be withing range of her side b. don't forget that if you look at it from a marth point of view as pit ur arrow outranges her side b and thus she should never b close enough to u to use it. and don't forget u can mirror it on reaction.

although in the end honestly as we all know it all comes down to who is the more skilled player. so just be better than the other guy and u will be fine.

Coming here so Blanky Blank the Mystic goes away.
It's 50:50.



I'm not going to discuss this.
Go back and read the old MU thread. It's probably the exact same MU now as it was then.

Hmm well the MU is 50/50 Not all ZSS will automatically throw the items at you they probably since they know you have angel ring would throw them up ^^, But either way since we are pit they'd just get rid of two and keep one and work with that since they can grab and do other stuff like if we run and angel ring they could just grab it =/

zss dsmash we can FH dair that okay and rolling behind her the dsmash hitbox is actually like ****ing huge >_> it still hits if you aren't far away enough >_<

As for planking like right when we get onto the ledge and back off we're invincible so we can do up-airs and have it hit but we'd have to mix it up of course. It's much safer when she's far away if you're going to ledge camp =/ just because if she charges dsmash but again we have good mix ups for the ledge.

We can powershield a lot of her moves since her dsmash and side b are slow.

In the air I'd say she wins a bit =/ are dair is good but her upair is amazing =/ and bair is really good too. There isn't much to talk about in regards to the air game but I feel we're better when we are on the ground.

Over all this MU is still even ^^, You guys don't has to listen to me =[ it's okay I could always answer specific stuff tho since the only actual practice i ever get is from Nick Riddle =/ soo i may be able to help with specifics. A lot of what Luckay or w.e. said i agree with

oh well thank you for the imput! especially if u play Riddle a lot. like i said at the beginning it is at most 55:45 but when i do these calculations i take counter picks into thought. overall we either go even or have some sort of stage advantage, but there isn't really a stage where we are at a disadvantage. that's my basis for saying it's in our favor.

also what can u tell us about how her jab and utilt effect our game play as pit? i mean i know the basics (her jab is frame 1, utilt fast+range) but i mean what would u say there effect is up close? because im thinking that those may be better than i am giving them credit for.

out utilt = to or > than hers. jab interrupts moves/ can be used as a mix up to dtilt/ lots of other things not guarenteed but are good mixups. Pits shdair is good for this mu.

^^^^^ Kuro said it.~

i would say overall we may have a better utilt belt but in this mu it's not greater than. her range makes our utilt not so useable. i mean if she's close then ya by all means but zss is known not to get that close.

alrighty so since basically what we r saying is our camp+priority=her speed+range, where do we go from here?

if we r gonna talk what moves to use when we would appreciate ur continued input loli. for example who would u say does better with platformed stages? i would say zss because that uair+all those high reaching whip moves she makes her juggling game>pit's juggling game. however pit can camp platforms pretty well especially with wing refresh platform camping (i know that from my testing this can counter wario's platform camping so it's gotta have some merit here)

D-tilt, Bair/Fair, uair and arrow seem to be the only moves that we'll be able to consistently punish her with.

wat else would u possibley want to have as punishers tho? and don't underestimate AR, jab, and ftilt. her laggy moves like usmash, grab, dsmash, and utilt are all very punishbable with all of the listed moves not to mention our dash attack puts her in a bad position for her good position for us and is totally viable as a punisher in this mu.

Ftilt is starting to become one of my favorite punishers on people trying to airdodge to the ground (which zss will probably do alot since her only moves safe on land are side b and down b maybe) because it has great knockback and good range plus they will most likely be DIing down at the time, its good for killing at high percents if you get a nice read.

i find pit's ftilt to be completely garbage, doesn't fsmash come out faster and is just... better?

F-Tilt has a longer range so its safer because it can't be punished as easily.

I use it as a "I think I might hit you but I want to stay back here and not waste my f-smash or really commit to this decision".....move

Its decent. I've been using it on people getting up from ledges

I sometimes just walk up to people and ftilt their sheilds just because I know I wont get punished lol. Ftilt can beat nado too if we sense it coming.

this move is great for punishing get ups and is a great spacer out of back angelic step. don't underestimate pit's ftilt or it'll bite u in the ***

rap her gud

SO as soon as Nick came in here this thread died off uuber quick. I have enough experience in this mu to take his opinion/yalls strats and theories/my exp to write a summary. However...that being said.

Neutrals/CP's discussion.

GO!!!!!

Flying under the stage is REALLY useful here. Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, and Lylat are all very good. I would probably ban Yoshi's Island or Castle Siege, mostly because I hate those stages.

Never recover high with glide or WoI because she will just drag you out of the sky. AKA dont be above her. I'd ban YIB because we have ****ty recovery there and she has really ood recovery. For CP's i might take her to brinstar or japes because we can camp really well on those two levels(make sure the Zamus doesnt have a pocket falco before you go to japes though )

pit can own falco at japes. small side blast zones and high vert. and we CAN out camp him there.

that being said, once again, HALBERD. we can gimp her so easy here with sharking and edge hogging. and since it's halberd, we can damage rack at the long part.

for neutrals, FD or SV. **** dealing with her at BF and YI and PK Sta

also once again, DELPHINO. same reasons as halberd just not as awesomely 2 dimensional.

Rainbow Cruise i would guess. never played her there tho so don't quote me on that.

lastly, im gonna have to say lylat may be a possible cp, but idk on that.

On Rainbow Cruise she can`t really use her tether during the 2nd phase of the level, which really helps out when gimping her.

Xcallion said:

Never recover high with glide or WoI because she will just drag you out of the sky. AKA dont be above her. I'd ban YIB because we have ****ty recovery there and she has really ood recovery. For CP's i might take her to brinstar or japes because we can camp really well on those two levels(make sure the Zamus doesnt have a pocket falco before you go to japes though )

Click to expand...

1) you'd think that right? small blast zones, a point for her, small ceilings, point for her, EXTENDED HTI BOX OF DSMASH ETC. Point for her. Sharking, point for pit. Not so sure brinstar is worth it. Keep discussing.

Maharba the Mystic said:

pit can own falco at japes. small side blast zones and high vert. and we CAN out camp him there.

that being said, once again, HALBERD. we can gimp her so easy here with sharking and edge hogging. and since it's halberd, we can damage rack at the long part.

for neutrals, FD or SV. **** dealing with her at BF and YI and PK Sta

also once again, DELPHINO. same reasons as halberd just not as awesomely 2 dimensional.

Rainbow Cruise i would guess. never played her there tho so don't quote me on that.

lastly, im gonna have to say lylat may be a possible cp, but idk on that.

Click to expand...

You have to be so careful on sharking a zss that it's really not worth cp'n there IMO. From my experience FD is the best cp Halberd i could see...you just have to be super careful cuz her kill options are gud there like @ brinstar. PS1 i usually do good against her there since i dont plank much anyways on zss.

fUddO said:

On Rainbow Cruise she can`t really use her tether during the 2nd phase of the level, which really helps out when gimping her.

Click to expand...

Rainbow is pretty legit for the mu. It helps us stay under her(which is good for us)

Also, japes is officialy not at nationals anymore so dont bother talking about it.

Ill post this again.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=97736

small sideways blast zone should also be point for pit and his bair as it's guarenteed death at 90ish on her from not just the stage's edge. also extended hit box on pit's fsmash and jab combos. and my favorite, extended hitbox on angled dtilt

i should just get a pic of pit using dtilt and make it my sig. i just love that move so much...

NOOOOOOO!! Japes was my favourite CP for pretty much the whole cast!

Maharba the Mystic said:

small sideways blast zone should also be point for pit and his bair as it's guarenteed death at 90ish on her from not just the stage's edge. also extended hit box on pit's fsmash and jab combos. and my favorite, extended hitbox on angled dtilt

i should just get a pic of pit using dtilt and make it my sig. i just love that move so much...

Click to expand...

Indeed it is. But im not so sure the risk is vs the reward. I see your point but idk i feel like overall its not the BEST cp. I feel rainbow>brinstar if u wanna choose from those. Delphino is usually my top pick cuz ik it like the back of my hand. FD is my fav for zss cuz we live soooo long there with good DI. Keep talkin peeps. Not just best ones but strats for each cp. Also what to ban against her.

i agree it's not the best cp. but it is an option based on player preferance and based on wat zss bans.

honestly i don't know what you would ban against zss besides the obvious things like YI and such.

Ban ps1 or frigate, she can catch us with a dsmash under the ledge and follow up with a bair stage spike

i'm wary of taking anyone to RC. I always seem to run into pocket MK's like that.

To beat a ZSS one must lrn2edgehog

Abel's post reminds me - watch out for ZSS footstooling your edgehogs.

lrn2refresh