BBR's Match-up Chart for Wario

Krystedez · Mar 8, 2011

Discussion Thread for Wario BBR MU Chart

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____________________________________

If any Wario mains that were on the panel want to discuss this, or any people from other character boards/panels want to comment on something to do with Wario's MU spread from the BBR, let's do it here.

What do the numbers mean?

[collapse=Ratings Definition]-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable
[/collapse]

[collapse=Ratings Translation - Paraphrased, NOT NECESSARILY EXACT, just my own interpretation.]
-4 -> ~Anything worse
-3 -> ~35-65/30-70
-2 -> ~40-60
-1 -> ~45-55
0 -> ~50-50
+1 -> ~55-45
+2 - ~60-40
+3 -> ~70-30/65-35
+4 -> ~ Anything better
[/collapse]

Further Discussion: (coming soon when you guys make up some arguments/matchups that deserve attention, etc...)

Lord Chair · Mar 8, 2011

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Yeah, really.

Sheilda doesn't exist, get that **** outta here. I have no idea why people think Wolf is easier than Ganon lol, or why Peach is supposed to be worse than both MK and D3. All gayness considered, DK is a free MU you cannot lose. You cannot lose the MU if you chaingrab, it's impossible. Same thing counts for Ganondorf.

Then why, oh why, doesn't this count for Wolf? Well, it's actually possible for Wolf not to get grabbed, easy as that. I'd go as far as say Bowser can prevent being grabbed either, but I really don't know the MU and I presume Wario has silly fair > grab setups on him as well.

I ask again, who was involved in this list? Admittedly, Wario's MUs tend to be controversial, but I'd go as far as say DK, Ganon and Bowser are objectively impossible to lose at top level play.

toobusytocare · Mar 9, 2011

wario doesnt beat diddy

Masky · Mar 9, 2011

..........

B.Mack · Mar 9, 2011

I agree with Chair's amended list... with some few corrections:

Diddy should be 50:50
Peach is just as bad as Marth, but not as bad as MK or D3
we go even with Yoshi? no advantage?

femmetriforce · Mar 9, 2011

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In my opinion and maybe would be a little cocky saying MK is easier than Marth and D3, no release, no reverse f-smash, but MK da bess, so let it be

Pwneroni · Mar 9, 2011

No matchup is ever "free" LC.

I generally agree with this list, apart from the peach/D3 switch that should happen. It's so awesome to see so little disadvantages, and so many advantages! :D beautiful! *sniff*

Krystedez · Mar 9, 2011

I'm pretty sure that there were quite a few Warios on the panel. I am fine saying that I was on it, but I didn't have much choice in the manner of the more controversial matchups. I pushed for Kirby, Yoshi, Mario, Pit, and a few minor others. The rest I was too late on because I was busy helping with the lacking Pit panel.

I agree that Dedede should be a -2, along with Meta Knight. Marth should be -1, and then Peach in -1.

The way Dedede was decided, really, it could have been a -2 because Dededes were fine with that, but many Warios thought -1 was better (shrugs).

Peaches weren't in favor of changing their big ol' matchup adv on us and I've addressed this, but couldn't fight it by myself. Activity was a huge issue with our panel.

Meta Knight we had submitted as -1 but originally was -2. Now looking back I see it only being a -1.5, but I don't know. Too much controversy, no one could agree much, and we simply went with the Mks on this one.

Marths were pretty much the same boat as Dededes, except the other way around; they thought a -1 was more fair, but were fine with -2 too. We just didn't decide for that, and were deadset on the -2 I guess.

Sorry for the ambiguity of my post, I'm just saying what CAN be said and what little I CAN say considering I didn't contribute enough

Sorry guys.

And I can't tell who was on the panel, they have to speak for themselves and some members may or may not want to discuss the results because they don't want to be badgered. Either way, you can badger me all you want because I really don't mind. I'll be honest and tell you what I can, or tell you when I can't say.

For instance, asking "What did _____ say about _____'s ratio?" won't work, specific examples of discussion and pointing fingers isn't allowed. Instead, asking "_____, what do you think about _____'s matchup? Do you know why it is ____?" is a better way of doing it, and they don't have to say if they were apart of the panel or not.

Either way I hope this discussion can be tolerable and profitable. Anything that absolutely needs changed will be reflected in your opinions and thoughts in the next iteration. The chart was a means to spike life into individual character boards, in order to discuss matchups more accurately.

slikvik · Mar 9, 2011

BBR always releases stuff that no one takes seriously. This list is no different.

2-DJeff · Mar 9, 2011

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Pwneroni · Mar 10, 2011

Honestly, Wario doesn't really have any 70-30 matchups in his disadvantage, does he? I mean D3 on FD is like THE WORST and even that is imo 65-35 at the worst. 70-30 means that it is very much in one character's favor, and even when both players know the matchup to the very best possible, one still wins a lot more of the time. Does this happen against D3? No, a lot of Wario players dislike the D3 matchup because they don't know it 100%. I can confidently say that I know the D3 matchup extremely well, and it is 60-40 at the WORST (imo).

70-30 against Marth? Yeah right. Against Peach? Praxis thought so in 2008, but in all the money matches I had with him, it went to last game last hit with him employing his "Wario Slayer" technique (Bair wall and Utilts). Granted, it was tough to get through but I found that approaching from above is the best bet, mixing it up with Dairs, airdodges and bites. Grab releases? Wario owns at not getting grabbed, and even if he does die, he should be at least going even if he's playing right.

Dynomite · Mar 10, 2011

I personally think that the list is somewhat correct aside from the obvious top 4.

mk and d3 should be above marth peach. but aside from that, its pretty much correct.

I dont like reading that DK is to be taken lightly. I know an amazing wario that got 3stocked by a DK just a few weeks ago. The matchup is not ****.. :smash:

@pwneroni: i agree 100% with what you said about 70-30 matchups. I dont think there is such a thing. Wario can hold his own against everyone on the roster, but yes he does has a few disadvantages.

2-DJeff · Mar 10, 2011

Pwneroni said:
Honestly, Wario doesn't really have any 70-30 matchups in his disadvantage, does he? I mean D3 on FD is like THE WORST and even that is imo 65-35 at the worst. 70-30 means that it is very much in one character's favor, and even when both players know the matchup to the very best possible, one still wins a lot more of the time. Does this happen against D3? No, a lot of Wario players dislike the D3 matchup because they don't know it 100%. I can confidently say that I know the D3 matchup extremely well, and it is 60-40 at the WORST (imo).

70-30 against Marth? Yeah right. Against Peach? Praxis thought so in 2008, but in all the money matches I had with him, it went to last game last hit with him employing his "Wario Slayer" technique (Bair wall and Utilts). Granted, it was tough to get through but I found that approaching from above is the best bet, mixing it up with Dairs, airdodges and bites. Grab releases? Wario owns at not getting grabbed, and even if he does die, he should be at least going even if he's playing right.

i Agree with this
also
Wario vs Mk 55:45 MK not to tough of a MU. remember wario kills this guy pretty damn earlier and wario is able to get around being gimped

Lord Chair · Mar 10, 2011

You guys suck at discussing matchups. No one cares about you knowing 'a good Wario' who happened to be 3-stocked by 'a good DK'.

For all I care both of them sucked and didn't know the MU.

Or, more likely, Mr. Wario preferred not to CG properly.

B.Mack · Mar 10, 2011

I fully agree with Chair about the DK matchup... there is absolutely no reason why Wario should lose this matchup when one grab at any % should mean the end of DK's stock. seriously guys, the CG isnt even hard to do.

I also agree with Pwneroni about 70:30's I dont think Wario is that bad in any matchup.

D3 matchup is potentially horrible, but if you play safe it's very very hard for D3 to grab you and each grab isnt even a guaranteed kill, just loads of damage. Wario still has various tools in this matchup, tires, throwing the bike, bite(especially a recovering D3)

Peach Matchup can be pretty horrible too... but at top level I think it is 55:45 or 60:40 at most to Peach... they still have to play smart in the matchup to win it.

I still think MK is 55:45

Dynomite · Mar 10, 2011

Lord Chair said:
You guys suck at discussing matchups. No one cares about you knowing 'a good Wario' who happened to be 3-stocked by 'a good DK'.

For all I care both of them sucked and didn't know the MU.

Or, more likely, Mr. Wario preferred not to CG properly.

Have you ever vsed a REALLY good DK?

Does Europe even have a really good DK?

B.Mack · Mar 10, 2011

Europe doesnt have any REALLY good DKs afaik... but that doesnt change the fact that DK is one of the easier chars in the game to grab.

bottom line is that for DK to win against a Wario that CG's properly, they have to be able to avoid being grabbed up to 3 times in the match. this includes not being hit by nair or fair(low%) and not getting shieldgrabed throughout. chances of that happening?

let's keep in mind that this is assuming top level play on either side, if the Wario player doesnt drop the easy CG he can pretty much guarantee a kill at any %

Lord Chair · Mar 10, 2011

I played Will lol.

And did fairly well without chaingrabbing...

or knowing the MU.

Now I know the MU.

Krystedez · Mar 10, 2011

Ook beat my Wario but lost to my Pit.

If that tells you anything.

My problem was I didn't chain grab much at all, as I did not have the "timing" down, if you can even call it that. I usually don't like in-place chain grabs and grab releases anyways. The only one I practice is Falco occasionally, just to show the opponent I'm able to do it, then the rest of the match goes in my favor, even if I drop it lol.

DK...If you drop the CG you could get Forward B'd, killed, ouch. Plus, CG isn't an instant stock, it stops at around 110 or so right? So he isn't gunna die from any attack except minute-half waft perhaps.

Regardless, the matchup is incredibly easy if played right. I got Ook'd pretty bad, but I still took it to last game last hit, I ended up pushing for the kill too early, got stuck in the lag of my fsmash, got forward-B'd into the ground and ate a fullpower dsmash (I literally was sweating/shaking and dropped my controller after getting forward B'd I was so nervous, Ook is scary D: )

Pwneroni · Mar 10, 2011

LOL that is so awesome Krys! What I was aiming at, was Lord Chair said the matchup was "free", which I disagree with. While Wario definitely can CG the crap outta DK, has things that lead into grab at low percents (bite below 16%, Nair, Dair), the monkey man isn't out of the game completely. I'm no expert on the DK metagame, so I'll just say I think it's a 70-30 matchup in our favor.

Nicks · Mar 11, 2011

dont forget that DK has grab release to fsmash, usmash and DK punch on us...
he has the ability to kill us at about 80% if he gets a grab near the edge of the stage. now THAT is scary

xzx · Mar 11, 2011

I think the list should look like this:

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Pwneroni · Mar 12, 2011

xzx my friend that is MAHVELOUS! I agree completely!

(S!C) · Mar 14, 2011

Europe doesnt have any REALLY good DKs afaik.
luigi players DK is really good, i play with buffered chaingrab against his dk and even then its really close between us.

about wolf, it should be +4 for wario
ddd i would say -3 <.<

B.Mack · Mar 14, 2011

lol why would Wolf be +4? that much easier than DK or bowser or ganon or jiggs?

Lord Chair · Mar 14, 2011

Yeah S!C don't be cocky for going even with Semifer lol.

(S!C) · Mar 14, 2011

i dont mean that, he is much better than me and my post had nothing to do with him <.<
more that dk even with buffered chaingrab he can get out already at 100% with up b

and wolf when he got grabbed at 60% without missclicks its a safe kill

B.Mack · Mar 14, 2011

ith DK you dont have to buffer it, with Wolf you do.

Lord Chair · Mar 14, 2011

I don't see how the relative difficulty of chaingrabs should influence a MU ratio.

(S!C) · Mar 14, 2011

Lord Chair said:
I don't see how the relative difficulty of chaingrabs should influence a MU ratio.

what do you mean?

Lord Chair · Mar 14, 2011

Well, bmack notes how the CG on Wolf has to be buffered, I don't see how that's relevant to anything :X

B.Mack · Mar 14, 2011

it shouldnt influence the ratio, but it certainly means that the DK matchup is a bit easier.

Pwneroni · Mar 14, 2011

Practice makes perfect! Speaking of....

(S!C) · Mar 15, 2011

especially 4 bowser, wolf, falco is the cg most important.
bowser can get out everytime with upB when you dont buffer the grab

xzx · Mar 15, 2011

(S!C), I don't think the DDD-MU is worse than the MK! And DoK is an easier MU for us than Wolf!

@Pwneroni: Thanks! =)

xzx · Sep 5, 2011

After some research, I think I would update this a little! =P

xzx said:
I think the list should look like this:

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(Changed it back to -2!)

Lord Chair · Sep 5, 2011

holy **** dude do you have any idea what -3 is LOL

(S!C) · Sep 6, 2011

xzx... ouch

well -->imo<-- ddd is the worst for wario
after that we have meta knight, leon, ramin, quiksilver, diddy kong (damn i hate him).
usual marth is easy to handle with imo, same for zss.
i cant say anything about the GaW MU at least i know he makes me so mad

PieDisliker · Sep 6, 2011

Ehhhh.... I kinda think that MK and D3 being -2 is about right.

Also, Ganon should be -3. Not so sure about Bowser. Then I think that'd be a pretty good list.

Iota · Sep 8, 2011

xzx said:
After some research, I think I would update this a little! =P

Actually, I think that MK is worse than DDD, but the reason I think the DDD MU is -3 for Wario is just because Wario really don't have any good stages against DDD (since the starters are all in DDD's favour). The only good stages Wario really has against DDD is LC and Brinstar and RR/RC (and maybe BF). So I think that MK and DDD is just about bad for Wario, but DDD has the stages, meaning the DDD MU is -3! =P What do you think?

D3 isn't -3 vs Wario I'd agree to -1 BF is a bad stage to pick vs D3. He gets stupidly good walling tricks on us that make it very very hard to approach and get the percent lead compared to a stage like SV. Not all the starters are in D3's favor. Just BF, YI, and FD are. The rest we go pretty even vs D3 imo. D3 isn't that bad on RC as he still has wall infinites walk offs and easier gimps on certain parts of the stage.

Snake is even or a +1. I agree with your peach ratio but not your marth ratio. Luigi and Sheik are NOT even Luigi is +1/+2 and Sheik is +2. Pit also isn't +2 he's +1. I agree with the rest of the ratios except CF, (+2) Ike (+1) and Ganondorf (+3)
I'll go into reasons why I think the way I do for the rest of the MUs later...

BBR's Match-up Chart for Wario

Awaken the Path

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Awaken the Path

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Awaken the Path

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

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