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Option counterpicking

Flayl

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Summary: Winner is Character-locked, Loser chooses to counterpick a Character OR a Stage (after bans)

Sorry if this idea has been brought up before, I'm sure plenty of changes to counterpicking have been suggested.

At first I thought how it was strange how every fighting game ever was set up so that the champion was character-locked and the challenger could pick a different character (this goes for both arcade mode and tournaments) except Smash, but then shortly after I realized it would be too much of an advantage to be able to counterpick both a character and a stage without the winner being able to do anything about it. This thread only really came up a lot of years after the fact.

It is my opinion Smash could use a slight change to counterpicks because of how deadly some character and stage combinations can be. Many will disagree with me saying that if you learned an extra character you deserve this powerful advantage, but the way I see it is that the player didn't really put that much effort into the character, he/she learned how to use it on a single stage. Concrete examples: Counterpicking FD and using IC: You never have to learn how to deal with platforms; Brinstar and MK: Approaching becomes much easier with sharking and edgeguarding is much more potent requiring less thought, etc.

So how can you change this so that people who learn multiple characters are still rewarded? If you force that Stage OR the Character Matchup to be the same, you can counterpick without double whammies occuring. Keep in mind this is AFTER the stage striking process for the first game.

So, here's the match process:
1. Player Priority is determined by G&W's Judgement if it can not be agreed on.
2. Each Team selects one controller port to use for each Player.
3. Each Team selects one character for each Player. A double blind pick may be called by any player.
4. The first game is played on a Stage selected from the Starter Stage List either by mutual consent or through the Stage Striking Method. The order of stage striking will be 1-2-2-1 (Team 1 strikes a stage, followed by Team 2 striking two stages, with Team 1 then striking one of the two remaining stages).
5. The first match is played.
6. The team that lost the previous match may opt to re-pick controller ports (with themselves picking first).
7. The Team that won the previous match may announce one "Stage Ban" if they have not already done so in this set.
8. The Team that lost the previous match announces either a change of characters for each Player or the stage for the next match from either the Starter or the Counterpick Stage List (Both options can not be chosen simultaneously). Any Stage named as a "Stage Ban" by either Team may not be selected. No Stage may be changed to by a Team that has already won on that Stage in this set.
9. The next match is played.
10. Repeat steps 6-9 for all proceeding matches.
 

Flayl

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I'm not sure what your point is, but for that to happen both players would have to change characters on their counterpicks
 

MK26

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y'know, on second thought i cant really find anything wrong with this system

on third thought, people are just gonna start pulling out their pocket mk game 1 instead of game 2...mk can cp you hard enough that, unless you play mk or a character that can beat him on rc/brinstar, if you lose on the neutral you might as well forfeit the set (get auto-cp'd to one of those two for game 3 unless you switch to mk rather than change the stage, and win in the ditto)
 

Raziek

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Something just doesn't sit right with me with this. I understand that the goal of the rule is to prevent the hard CPs with character and stage, but this still has several holes that I can see.

1) If the loser plays MK first round, he can still give you the **** on RC or Brinstar.
2) Being locked into a character on winning makes MK an even MORE safe choice.
3) Being locked into a DIFFERENT character on winning means several characters become even MORE ridiculously unviable, due to being unable to switch out of a character CP. DK round 1 is basically suicide, since your opponent will just character CP Dedede and you're locked.

I don't like many of the implications to this rule. Why is the winner locked into their character? Why not just restrict CP to stage or character, not both?

That still has the problems of making MK a ridiculously safe choice, but I don't like this rule.
 

Flayl

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Picking MK game 1 makes it a non-pocket MK.

Also MK is good, duh?

Pocket Dedede's that are used game 2 should be easily destroyed game 3. I don't think you're putting enough thought into this.
 

Raziek

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That's not the point, Flayl. The point is that this rule hampers variety significantly, and gives people even LESS reason to pick a character other than MK.

Fair point on the Dedede thing, but I'm really not seeing very much benefit to locking the winner's character, here. What exactly does that accomplish? Fitting a precedent started by other fighters that don't use stages?

Edit: More specifically, under what justification are we taking away the benefits of learning how to play multiple characters?
 

Cook

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1) If the loser plays MK first round, he can still give you the **** on RC or Brinstar.
2) Being locked into a character on winning makes MK an even MORE safe choice.
3) Being locked into a DIFFERENT character on winning means several characters become even MORE ridiculously unviable, due to being unable to switch out of a character CP. DK round 1 is basically suicide, since your opponent will just character CP Dedede and you're locked.
1. Yeah, but then you get your counterpick on the third match and you already one the first match on a neutral, so there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to win the third match

2. MK is always the safest choice. What's your point?

3. I really doubt this. How many people would pick DDD just because the other guy was playing DK? Only people who actually PLAY DDD would do this, and that's not many people. You think every person Will plays in tournament picks DDD against him second match? Of course not, people use the characters that they actually play, and there's no reason why that would change under this system.
 

MK26

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thats my point...

also, with this rule basically any character with a really really ****ty matchup basically becomes unviable...if you win game 1, you're locked into your character while you get hard cp'd, while if you lose game 1 you need to switch characters to prevent getting hard cp'd game 3.

On the other hand i can sorta see some strategy going into this...ie a Fox main going Fox game 1, winning, getting cp'd Pikachu game 2, and pulling out his pocket Pika-killer game 3...

What this really comes down to is that, even more than it is now, the winner of game 1 wins the set
 

Cook

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If the loser of the first game chooses to cp a character, is the second match played on the same stage as the first match or do you stage strike again?
 

Raziek

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I believe the rule stated you could either cp character, or stage, so I'm under the impression that changing characters means they're locked to the same stage.
 

Flayl

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Guys, you can CP a Fox with a pocket Pikachu in the current ruleset as well (to a worse stage than a striked out starter). With my ruleset you actually have a chance to CP them back, while they can just revert back to their mains in the ruleset that's commonly used.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Flayl's idea is really good and viable tbh.

You should do the right thing and ignore Raziek for all eternity. He just wants to appear "the smart guy" by using inane examples / arguments to support his dumb case.

:059:
 

Flayl

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Gheb, can we not do that right now?
or ever

If there's someone that can find a flaw in this ruleset one of those people would be Raziek, I know he's really into variety from his stance on stage lists and the legality of a certain character.
 

Raziek

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That's not the point, Flayl. The point is that this rule hampers variety significantly, and gives people even LESS reason to pick a character other than MK.

Fair point on the Dedede thing, but I'm really not seeing very much benefit to locking the winner's character, here. What exactly does that accomplish? Fitting a precedent started by other fighters that don't use stages?

Edit: More specifically, under what justification are we taking away the benefits of learning how to play multiple characters?
Quoted again for my question at the end.

And just because I asked a few questions doesn't mean I'm an idiot, Gheb. It's called Socratic discussion. I was probing possible flaws I thought I found, and had some of them refuted.
 

Flayl

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In the first post I explain that learning a character on 1 stage doesn't earn the same merit as learning the same character for all stages (minus the banned one(s)).

It's a lot harder to secondary MK for all stages than learning him for specifically Brinstar/Rainbow Cruise.

Yes, when it comes down to it it's still subjective of course.
 

Raziek

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Then I would argue that learning a character just for a stage is not as simple as you make it out to be.

On top of that, learning a character for a specific stage (Like MK for Brinstar, or ICs for FD) is no different than learning a secondary for a bad matchup (Someone who ***** Dedede if you're a DK), or learning a stage to deal with a specific character. (Learning Norfair or Brinstar to deal with ICs)

What is inherently WRONG, with a pocket secondary, as you seem to be implying, Flayl? Isn't that a major facet of counterpicking, if not the point?
 

Seagull Joe

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Wait, what the ****? You're saying I have to change my character because I cp a stage I have an advantage on? I'm confused.
 

Raziek

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Read it again, Seagull.

The winner is locked into their character, the loser can counterpick either character or stage, but not both.
 

Flayl

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I'm having a bit of a hard time putting this in words but counterpicking, from my understanding, should be about adapting to the winner's position with lasting consequences rather than evening the set count using whatever possible so you have another shot in the next game.

Probably not a satisfactory response, but like I said, there's no way of going about this objectively.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Flayl, what do you think is the benefit of character locking the winner?

:059:
 

Flayl

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It's like I said: For there to be a consequence throughout the set if you pull out a secondary and win.

Also it would be unfair for the winner be able to change character and the loser only being able to change character or stage, IMO

Let's assume character B goes even with C but loses horribly to A

C beats B 1st game
C changes to A (with no character lock)
B then is "forced" to use his counterpick to change character.
 

Raziek

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In that case, I will respectfully disagree with the reasoning behind this rule, because I feel that there's absolutely nothing anti-competitive or undeserved about utilizing a secondary character to gain an advantage during counterpicking.

Slight Edit due to your edit: In which case, I agree with you that the winner NOT being locked but the loser being restricted is unfair, so I would simply opt to keep the current rule.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Also it would be unfair for the winner be able to change character and the loser only being able to change character or stage, IMO
Why would it be unfair the loser can pick his character *afterwards* anyway? I think the core idea to let the loser either pick character *or* stage rather than both is good enough.

:059:
 
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I don't understand the benefit of the current system, actually. What's the point of counterpicking if we give the winner of the last game the ability to just pick a character that evens it out or even turns it around (especially with MK in the game)? I don't understand that.

There's all kinds of talk about not giving the loser any advantages, but otherwise what's the point of counterpicking?
 

Flayl

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In that case, I will respectfully disagree with the reasoning behind this rule, because I feel that there's absolutely nothing anti-competitive or undeserved about utilizing a secondary character to gain an advantage during counterpicking.
I didn't say there was... I said there should be a consequence.

Gheb: Check out my edit.
 

Raziek

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@ SFP: From my understanding, the reasoning is that the loser is granted the choice of stage.

The winner can then attempt to mitigate the stage choice by changing characters.

The loser then gets to character counterpick.

They can force the winner to a different character by means of stage, then counterpick that character. (MK breaks that, but that doesn't mean the system is wrong.)

@Flayl: Why should there be a consequence for putting in that extra effort?
 
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Why is the winner of the previous game allowed to mitigate your counterpick? lol. That eliminates the purpose of allowing counterpicks at all and leads to MK dittos on Rainbow Cruise in game 2 more often than I'd like.

This is what's wrong with the system.

Your opponent is a King Dedede player and you play Donkey Kong. In a double blind pick, you both pick your mains and he bones you game 1.

Game 2, you attempt to CP him by picking a character and stage where King Dedede wouldn't do well. You pick, uh, Zero Suit Samus on Final Destination.

Your opponent picks Falco.

That's why I don't like the current system.
 

Flayl

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We're about to go in circles, so here goes for the last time: I feel the effort is currently unproportional to the gain. It's subjective and the call on what ruleset to use is up to the TO's opinion.
 

Raziek

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Then I disagree with you, and we'll leave it at that.

@SFP: Because counterpicking both character AND stage would mean you'd basically never lose your CP, so we let the opponent change characters to mitigate the stage.

You still get a character counterpick, and the stage is usually different, unless the loser is salty.
 
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Then I disagree with you, and we'll leave it at that.

@SFP: Because counterpicking both character AND stage would mean you'd basically never lose your CP, so we let the opponent change characters to mitigate the stage.

You still get a character counterpick, and the stage is usually different, unless the loser is salty.
Check out my edit. Also, MK.
 

Raziek

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This is what's wrong with the system.

Your opponent is a King Dedede player and you play Donkey Kong. In a double blind pick, you both pick your mains and he bones you game 1.

Game 2, you attempt to CP him by picking a character and stage where King Dedede wouldn't do well. You pick, uh, Zero Suit Samus on Final Destination.

Your opponent picks Falco.

That's why I don't like the current system.
Your opponent has a secondary to counter their character's bad matchups. Why is this unfair?

Furthermore, the selection would be in this order:

You pick FD.

They pick Falco.

You can now pick Pikachu, and give them the ****.

You deserve to have an advantage for playing more characters.
 

Flayl

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Gheb: I guess that puts you on the opposite side of Raziek then, haha. Your method would have the weakest counterpicks out of the 3 rulesets discussed.
 
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