The yoshi's island (brawl) discussion

okay guys, it has been advocated that YI is one of pit's worst stages. however, i believe this too be a falsehood as Pit OWNS many match ups at YI and has several different stage specific techniques here that have a major impact on his gameplay in a positive way. But to start off, im going to list the few aspects that are disadvantageos for pit just to get them out of the way.

YI CONS:
-we cannot go under it, resticting our ledge options to that of the average character and making us easier to gimp.
-shy guys can mess up arrows and arrow loops

now with that out of the way, here i have compiled a list of things that are open to us at YI due to stage dynamics.

YI PROS:
-with proper placement either on the tilt of part of the stage or the platform, we can get guarenteed air releases on characters like wario and MK
-when standing on an uphill slant, like the ones on the edge, when we perform dtilt, the hitbox is altered to a major degree. it extends it's horzinantal range and gives the move significant vertical range to the degree of stopping aerial assults.
-those slants also place us where characters cannot crawl under our straight arrows.
-if you start AR about 2 lines back from the ledge (meaning the lines on the ground of the stage), when pit does AR, it is slanted downwards making a roof over the ledge that will hit the opponent hanging there. this works well for forcing people off of the ledge. and if you use this put your opponent off stage, i believe the finishing wind box pushes them farther down.
-the slant makes our dtilt spike box bull**** awesome amazing wonderful easy to hit with as we can just walk up and do a sliding dtilt and because our angle is altered it hit's a bigger area i believe downwards.
-our juggle game is only helped by the platform as we can shark it epicly and shoot up through it and keep characters above us
-killing is not that big of a problem at this stage as the blast zones are similar to other neutrals.
-hitting shyguys refreshes moves

(sidenote: ghosts can screw up our gimps, but they can also save us from being gimped. so ghost's are neither positive or negative)

so with these things in mind, now ill talk some matchups that i believe this stage can be used as an effective CP against:
1. Wario- we can air release him here into bair, we can camp those slants with dtilt effectively stopping his short hop approaches. that's really all we have to worry about when we play him anyways so this stage effectively nullifies his advantages on us.

2. Fox- the platform interupts dair combos, the ceiling is high, and we can get easy gimps with slanted AR> bair stage spike or footstool. can can camp the slants with mirror shield if we want to make him approach.

3. Falco- due to being able to camp him on the slants and abuse our dtilt, easier time gimping with roofing the ledge with AR, being able to mirror camp the slants, and the platform abuse is so great for pit with juggling and shark combos with bair both strong and sour spot (btw sour bair>crit bair is so easy when they are on the platform)

4. TL- it is believed that this stage may help us get in close to TL which is how this MU should be played. the platform helps with juggling, and the overall size helps us get kills (him as well kinda) and also lets us get in close and stay there. the dynamics of the stage also limit his camping ability.

5. Olimar- needs discusion but,

Kuro~ said:

Spaced ar off the edge is god. The several slants all over the stage seem to help me vs olimar. The large covering platform helps control where he can go once we get him in the air so he becomes easier to punish. The big factor is ar. It's so good against him hear if you space it right. After the first few hits let go and the wind box pushes him off stage even more. It's small and we actually do well in CQC vs olimar. so that fact helps us cuz he can't camp as hard here. Fd is good as well picot>fd for this mu imo.

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sounds solid.

6. Kirby- slant camping takes away his best option, sh aerial approach. slanted dtilt eats through that **** so that means he has to come from above which due to his predictable approaches from that angle we have plenty of time to either reset the situation (run to the other side) or just wait and punish accordingly. be careful as his projectile can shoot down off the ledge due to the slant his rock slide's here making it hurt box (albeit very predictable) and it can slide off the ledge. however for the most part this stage helps us with it's dynamics of slant and the platform.



so there you have it guys. what's your opinion on the facts i've laid out? and please help me to keep these boards active with intelligent discussions and topics and threads.

all right team, MOVE OUT! (aka discuss)

Edit: alright guys, feel free to add whatever you would like to this just by posting it here. questions, MU specifics, ideas, whatever you want just post here and they will be addressed by myself or someone else. however since i want to keep these stage discussions moving along im going to be starting another one here in a minute so that we can keep this stuff moving along.

Ill post in this later. I use to hate this stage so much. And i swear to god every time i relied on random it gave me this stage ONLY when i chose pit. When i switched to snake it NEVER gave me it (my fav stage as snake). Because of that curse i eventually learned the stage quite well and love it for some matchups.

The ghosts (platforms) can mess up your gimps, something to watch out for, but impossible to prevent.

they can also save your *** if you are getting gimped, so it's kind of double edged sword

I would still just go with smashville or FD over this stage. Not good enough to counterpick here either. Starting to like it vs wario though, and mks only practice on sv and battlefield so tricking them to going here could be advantageous for us.

nooooo...... mk's dtilt is already broken. it is even gayer when they can have it tilted downwards over the edge spamming it and stopping any recovery that touches it. ive seen it done. definately don't wanna cp mk here. besides he is one of the couple MUs that scrooging is practically neccessary against.

This is a pretty good place against ICs and Falco.

Against MK, my first priority is a stage you can fly under. Makes recovery way easier.

Are we gonna make a new topic for every tourney-legal stage? Or can we change the topic like every week or so to another stage so we can continue to discuss this even when the YI topic expires?

I find taking diddy and wario here especially effective. And olimar as well.

pitskeyblade said:

Are we gonna make a new topic for every tourney-legal stage? Or can we change the topic like every week or so to another stage so we can continue to discuss this even when the YI topic expires?

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i have no problem doing a bunch of stage discussions. when they are all done i will take the gathered info and put it in one big thread. as for now, we be talkin YI, so test out this stage some guys and get me some feedback on how it works for ya when you abuse our advantages there

I think I've read somewhere that the ghost platforms appear randomly. There's no rhyme or reason to them. Can anybody back that up? If there is a pattern to the appearances we could possibly use that knowledge to our advantage.

Kuro~ said:

I find taking diddy and wario here especially effective. And olimar as well.

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Could you elaborate on Olimar? I always thought that FD was best for that MU (well, Picto is good too, and Japes is best if they unban it).

fUddO said:

Could you elaborate on Olimar? I always thought that FD was best for that MU (well, Picto is good too, and Japes is best if they unban it).

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does any1 know if the slant affects his ability to grab us off the ledge?

pitskeyblade said:

I think I've read somewhere that the ghost platforms appear randomly. There's no rhyme or reason to them. Can anybody back that up? If there is a pattern to the appearances we could possibly use that knowledge to our advantage.

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i thought that there was a timing but im not sure. time to go board searching......

also, lay out all the characters who we do good against or break even with on this stage in your opinion and most importantly why. it doesn't have to be hella detail, just kinda like how i did with wario and fox. a few simple facts.

i also think we can do good/go even here against:
-falco due to being able to camp him on the slants and abuse our dtilt, easier time gimping with roofing the ledge with AR, being able to mirror camp the slants, and the platform abuse that pit is so great for with juggling and shark combos with bair both strong and sour spot (btw sour bair>crit bair is so easy when they are on the platform)

-TL may be more bearable to fight at this stage since the platform kinda limits his aerial camping game. not to sure about this one. needs discussion.

-pickachu since going under the stage is bad against pika anyways and this stage just buffs our tools to camp, combo, and kill him plus the platform messes him thunder. definately think this stage has potential for beating pika. and since those slants neutralize a lot of his approaches with slant dtilt and allow us to outcamp him because he can't just crawl under arrows, i think this would be a great CP on him.

wat else can you guys think of?

-pickachu since going under the stage is bad against pika anyways and this stage just buffs our tools to camp, combo, and kill him plus the platform messes him thunder. definately think this stage has potential for beating pika. and since those slants neutralize a lot of his approaches with slant dtilt and allow us to outcamp him because he can't just crawl under arrows, i think this would be a great CP on him.

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Being half Pikachu main I disagree with this. Pikachu can wall us offstage nicely on Yoshi's and if we are forced to woi we can't hug the stage because tjolts will travel down the side of it and gimp us. Pikachu can send tjolts from the middle platform at us and is small so camping him here won't be as effective, the stage is too small. Pikachu won't use thunder unless you're at a safe distance in the air so even if the platform takes away T2 pikachu still won't be punished. Pikachu also has options to get in plus he is fast enough to react to our laggy moves. Pikachu can also use the platform to shark just as well if not better than Pit can. Not a good stage vs pika.

thx for the imput luckay. took pika out of the OP

although i actually have experiance when it comes to flack-oh and fox so i know that we do well there against those 2 at least.

fUddO said:

Could you elaborate on Olimar? I always thought that FD was best for that MU (well, Picto is good too, and Japes is best if they unban it).

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Spaced ar off the edge is god. The several slants all over the stage seem to help me vs olimar. The large covering platform helps control where he can go once we get him in the air so he becomes easier to punish. The big factor is ar. It's so good against him hear if you space it right. After the first few hits let go and the wind box pushes him off stage even more. It's small and we actually do well in CQC vs olimar. so that fact helps us cuz he can't camp as hard here. Fd is good as well picot>fd for this mu imo.

Yeah, that makes sense. AR seems like the "trick" to the Olimar matchup.

YI:B's ghosts are completely random. I'm not sure about the shyguys, but it's really only Pit mains who care about that, lol. I've lurked/participated in enough ruleset discussion topics to know that.

I don't mind shyguys. Free move refresh targets.

does any1 else think we would do great against kirby here since once again his only gimick is sh bair and grab range hax? the slanted dtilt stops sh aerials like that. and no matter what stage we are on his grab range is hax. plus he can't crouch our arrows when we slant camp. so it seems viable to me.

Actually, TL finds the Shy Guys to be complete BS. They stop Bombs and stuff.

Also, Ganon has a guaranteed Warlock Punch on Pit fUddO here.

I'll seriously contribute in a bit.

so how do you guys think we do against ICs here? i don't really have experiance against ICs on yoshi's so if anyone can contribute that would be great.

after ICs, olimar, and TL have been discussed here, ill start another stage discussion. it is important for us to know how to use any advantage a stage gives us so ill make sure to point out things that are specifically good and bad for us that i know of and then you guys will contribute, just like we did in this discussion. ill probably do brinstar next as i never see pit's CP here when it is actually a great stage for us against several characters.

true dat, and i just remembered that you don't want to camp the platform because dat uair. so wat about toon link? do we do good, bad, or neutral against him here compared to other stages?

Hmmm...i'd say neutral. I could see it beneficial as well though.

TL likes to fair offstage. I think he would get easier kills on Yoshi's.

valid points, but YI has a higher blast zone than most doesn't it? which means we survive his only viable kill move (usmash) better than normal. you really shouldn't be getting hit by his fsmash and dair...... also the big platform limits his air camping game a decent bit i would think. that's why i figured this stage to be semi favorable to begin with

Wdf i have to TOTALLY DISAGREE. If we are trying to camp tink then we are doing that **** WRONG WRONG WRONG. Tink will when the camp battle. Not only that but he shouldnt be getting pit offstage easily to begin with. So that fair issue isn't even that big of a deal. THIS HELPS US WITH KILLS AS WELL.AND WE WEIGH MORE THAN TINK. This is a punish landings/CQC fight which YI helps with because the way the stage is built. The platform helps us juggle him as it does with all characters and messes up his camping in a few ways. Tink can get past an aircamping pit way easily.

see i have like no MU experiance here. i didn't know we are suppose to cqc on him. i thought we could camp. this may explain why pj and jerm **** on day and make me go flack-oh. ill have to try boxing the little *******

I mean think about it...i think we do more damage with OoS air moves than we would do with arrows...this an juggling/sh/cqc fight imo. Ya we can PS the B and ->b and just catch the down B but i feel it allows tink to pressure us. We should try to stay in his face cuz we have better range overall. I mean you just jump dair zair approaches.

Lol @ falco thing. I use to just go snake. So fun of a matchup. I like camping his *** and killing him at 98 lmao.

alright guys, feel free to add whatever you would like to this just by posting it here. questions, MU specifics, ideas, whatever you want just post here and they will be addressed by myself or someone else. however since i want to keep these stage discussions moving along im going to be starting another one here in a minute so that we can keep this stuff moving along.