Matchup Export: King Dedede

Deleted member · Apr 24, 2011

Character: King Dedede
Current BBR MU Rating: -2
What to watch out for: Grab, Forward-tilt, Back-air, Up-tilt, and Down-air. Click here for rPSI's post on the specifics.
Stages:
-Strike: Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium 1
-Ban: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza
-Counterpicks: Lylat, Brinstar, Yoshi's Island(if you're comfortable there), Pokemon Stadium 2
Lucas Boards Matchup Rating: -2

[collapse="Matchup Summaries:"]

Auspher said:
With a lot of matchups, I like to short hop -> PK Fire, but on DeDeDe, that just isn't safe at all. Sometimes you'll get lucky and score a hit, but when D3 is tossing his minions at you, you're setting yourself up to take a hit from a Gordo. If D3 powershields the PK Fire, you're gonna get grabbed as well. I find it best to just do grounded PK Fire's if he's throwing his minions. It will go beneath and hit the King.

But hey, at least we can bat the Gordo back at him. :3

The thing I like about this matchup is pressuring D3's shield. Doing a little keep away with short hop -> fair is handy, but nair can eat away at his shield, sometimes poking it. Also, D3's size makes dairing a lot of fun. He will often bounce hard against the ground, putting him in a bad position.

RocketPSIence said:
IMO this is a pretty bad MU for Lucas.
-3 for Lucas.
Lucas ground game is just entirely shut out due to grab just beating nearly every thing. If Lucas tries to even zone, DDD just has to throw out an f-tilt and it beats everything on the ground. There's not much Lucas can really do in this MU without getting grabbed. Lucas can try full-hop f-air against DDD since he's so tall, but then Lucas has to try to land after that, and it's just not fun. The only way to really go about this MU is to get a lead and camp him to death. DDD's pretty easy to camp with any character, and is Lucas' best answer to this MU.
A tip for when he's in the air and is landing facing towards you, you can pretty much d-smash really safely. The problem is that DDD can turn around in mid-air, and Lucas doesn't really have anything that can beat b-air, letting DDD landing safely.

@Auspher, make sure you do a dash away turn-around PK Fire, they're always safe on PS. Just make sure not to b-reverse it.

KoozyKRIS said:
As with most of our MU's approaching is hard as f**k.
D3 has an ftild that goes through basically everything we have. if youre feeling froggy and you think you can time this right, catch the ftilt on the last bit of its frames (12 Frames), the second part of our pkfire will work.
D3 throws Waddel Dee's, Waddel Doo's and Gordo's.
Waddel Dee's- 5% fresh, 2% stale. they walk around and if youre not careful they hit hit you.
Waddel Doo's- hits the same as Waddle Dee's. The Doo ray does 30% if you get hit by all of it. Absorb this, if d3 in not in range of you. you get a free 68% back.
Gordo's- does 26% fresh and does 10% completely stale..<-- this info about it being stale is basically pointless (if you get hit by a stale gordo, all i have to say is wow) Bat these *****es back at him, or power shield. if you shield it regularly they will bounce away and float around the stage depending on the angle it hit the shield.
Items- if a item gets thrown, make sure all items are turned off and set to none of the frequency.

with nair, never land in front of D3!
The chaingrab sux for us- try not to get grabbed. i know its hard but we can do it.
the chaingab can be followed up by ftilt and back air if you dont DI it correctly

Utilt is ridiculous, not only does it look stupid, it kills stupid too. If you try to approach in the air remember that D3 has this 12 frames. I dont recommend a fast fall nair unless uve mindgamed it. and if you use dair make sure that you dont land in front of him.

Counter stages where you feel most comfortable. Brinstar is good ( if they dont have a pocket MK) , and BF and the pokemon stadiums could be good if you want to use the stages platforms and randomness.
BAN Delfino. the stage has so many places where you can get walked of its not funny. he can gert back alot easier through the stage.
Ban fd, makes it harder to approach than befoe if the D3 was to be a DEE DEE **** and camp. plus chain grab obviously ***** here.

Ps. MIND GAME MIND GAME. and READ!!! we can win any match if we do these correctly. nothing is impossible.
Correct me if im wrong in any of this

Chuee said:
Ftilt is 12 frames?
Then if you have good reaction time you might be able to PS it.
Waddle Doo's should only be used by D3 to block pk fires. It's really slow and laggy so if you can, punish it.
Janky stages are your best bet for CPs against D3.
Brinstar is your best against him, if he bans it try frigate or maybe norfair if it's legal. Don't cp RC, he's actually better than you'd think there. You're first priority for banning is Delfino. You have to play ridiculously safe on the walk off/wall transformations.

Technical_Chase said:
Hmmm no D3 input on this? Well let's change this!

The overall concept of fighting DDD is pretty simple. What's not simple for Lucas is reliably overcoming the obstacles we'll have set.

DDD is the epitome of defense. Everything about him. His range, weight..everything. A good DDD will attempt to keep in mid range. Far enough to keep you out of his vulnerable spots (which is in his face and below him) with F-Tilt, D-Tilt and Back Air but close enough for him to punish you with grabs. Lucas's options vs this classic style of DDD play aren't very plentiful. He'll have to stay on the move and camp DDD as hard as he can until he can force some sort of opening. However DDD's range gives him a giant edge here. **** grab range/swallow + grab armor helps us a LOT if we know how to abuse it.

Approaching via the ground is really hard for Lucas. F-Tilt is sooooo safe. PK Fire gets beaten by F-Tilt or at least the initial hit if I remember right. Down Smash does give you guys an option and its pretty hard to punish but its still not something you want to throw out to often of course. If you're going to approach it should be via the air. You need to just camp until you get some sort of opening. You need to stay on the move though. Wavebounce the PK Fires always. Of course keep in mind we have a big *** shield and we can PS to grab if we're fast enough. You just have to mix up your timings and such.

If we're approaching our main option is Back air. It does everything. However we can switch it up. Forward air has a HUGE hitbox. It hits behind us also so airdodging into us is a bad idea. We also can just B-reversal swallow which is a **** mixup. Its a grab also so we get grab armor and it has great range. So even if you manage to react to it a lot of times we'll still just swallow you anyway. We don't mind trading hits.

What else...

Oh. Your end goal is to get us off the stage and force us to use our really punishable recovery. You can't really chase off the stage but you can at least predict what we're going to do. We'll usually try to go to the ledge but in the end its a giant guessing game. Its rare we'll try to just land on the stage without canceling because of your Up_Smash..perfect for ****** a foolish attempt ...lol. We'll usually try to cancel Up B. Of course the trick is making us use it. You do have PK Thunder but its so laggy that we get past it we're making back on the stage. I don't know off the top of my head all of your options for edgeguarding us however so someone can fill in that blank.

Our goal is just wait for you to screw up and grab. That's it. Once we get you to the ledge we'll attempt to gimp you which isn't TOO hard but a smart Lucas can make it back. You must avoid the WEAK hit of Back Air at all costs. If you get hit at a mid or high percent you won't make it back on the stage. It hits at a bad trajectory for you guys by sending you on a slightly downward angle.

Assuming we're using Unity Ruleset:

Go for YI. Not the strongest starter for us. The high ceiling weakens one of best killers...up tilt. Plus the large platform is just a pain for us. No good really comes from it. Lylat is also solid because the tilting nature of the stage can screw up our chaingrab.

As far as CPs..DDD will almost always ban Brinstar. We are bad on that stage and negates a lot of what makes this MU so bad for Lucas.

I'd ban Delfino or Rainbow personally. Both of those stages are pretty good for us. Delfino is awesome for us as we have walk off CG chances and the low ceiling on some parts of the stage give us an early kill. And since the stage is always changing its hard for Lucas to continue camping us. Rainbow is pretty much the same concept minus the low ceiling. We have chances to wall infinite we can move around the stage pretty well with Platform Canceling and we outrange Lucas in the air so we can just wall him.

Castle Siege is a personal favorite because of the 2nd phase of the stage and on the first part of the stage Lucas has no room to run with.

Final Destination could also be good for us. FD really isn't s stage we CP that often when the opponent has solid projectile though..

As far as what you should take us to..Yoshi's isn't an bad option. Its one of our worst stages period. Hmmm Ive never played a Lucas in tournament though so I actually am unsure that as well. I mean what screws us over are stages that high ceilings and can interrupt our Chaingrabs. Frigate could be a solid option when I think about it. The one ledge thing isn't great for Lucas but its bad for also because if you feel confident about making us use Up -B and we're caught on the stage...we have no choice but to land on the stage...which can be punished. There's platforms also to help you evade us. Lylat is also solid..actually that'd be one my first bans against someone who's trying to run from us the entire time/someone we NEED to CG.

I'd post more but I'm still half asleep..lol

~Pink Fresh~ said:
Everyone thinks I'm insane when it comes to this mu. T sucks for lucas. Alot. The only good things we have are juggling, keeping him offstage, and... well that's it. We get pushed to the ledge of the stage as ddd slowly approaches by walking and using ftilt/powershielding our lol pk fire. We struggle to get back onstage, whih is how ddd gets most of the damage and kos. Utilt > pkt2 T_T more stuff, but typing on dying phone. Maybe laterrr.

MetalMusicMan said:
This matchup is not that bad at all, I would put it absolutely no worse than -2 for Lucas. I would probably put it at only -1, actually.

The problem is that there are very few good Lucas players, and a less knowledgeable Lucas who doesn't space properly and bait/punish is just going to get grabbed over and over again, which make make it seem bad, but it's really not imo.

The most important thing though is Lucas's aerial mobility, he can literally run circles around DeDeDe and make approaching or ever getting a grab incredibly difficult.

Lucas can space DeDeDe with retreating f-air, pk-fire, etc. He can wear down DeDeDe's shield fairly safely with well spaced aerials such as n-air and more retreating pk-fires. One of the things that I think Lucas does really well against DeDeDe is bait grabs and then punish. Lucas has very good air traction so he can bob and weave around DeDeDe with relative ease while baiting and punishing.

Lucas's ridiculously fast Jab and mixups from it (jabs > retreating nair especially) also give DeDeDe trouble close range, since all DeDeDe has at close range is grab. He's not Falco, he can't jab. ALL he has is grab. That's it.

Lucas also edge guards DeDeDe fairly well because he can safely PK thunder to eat DeDeDe's jumps and force an up-b, then punish with [really strong lucas KO move of choice] or an aerial.

DeDeDe really doesn't gimp Lucas very easily either. While it's obviously a concern, lucas can use zap-jump or psimagnet momentum and his up-b to recovery pretty easily so long as he doesn't make any incredibly poor decisions.

DeDeDe is fat and that can make him live through things and stale some of Lucas's moves, in addition to the obvious issues he presents with grabs. Getting CG'd as Lucas really isn't as bad as it seems for him though, and actually grabbing a knowledgeable Lucas is pretty damn hard.

Auspher said:
Approaching D3 on the ground is pretty much negated by his ftilt alone. The best thing to do on the ground is probably just keep your distance and throw out a grounded PK Fire if he's spamming his minions.

With that said, I think things are made a lot easier if you stay in the air and dish out aerials, preferably down-air(space with it and move away if it doesn't hit. You should land with little to no lag if done correctly). I've poked through his shield before with it, and D3 is pretty damn fat(I think MetalMusicMan hit on this ), so afterwards you can rack up a lot of damage if you just get in and nair. People gotta realize that Lucas can take advantage of his size for that purpose alone.

NO-IDea said:
Do I get props for the Dragonball reference at least?

I could tell your best bet of winning the MU. Doesn't mean you will.

Fact of the matter is you're on the losing side when it comes to the RPS analysis. Your options don't stand out so well.

N-air can get pivot grabbed even if it is fairly safe on shield.
F-air can get shield grabbed. Retreating f-air only gives the D3 stage control if you continually do it.
D-air is your third common option in this RPS analysis, and probably the safest. The problem is your options for follow-up are mediocre after the full-hop if the move doesn't connect. I'll let you guys discuss your landing options, but the more you retreat or fail to hold your ground, the more limited your landing options become.

And there's always the hilarious read of a pre-emptive f-air/b-air from D3. Which is infuriating and something you have to account for if you choose d-air.

PK Fire doesn't advance your position. Face a player who perfect shields and it's not a viable tactic.

That's the core of the MU on stage. Of course you can play to outwit your opponent, but I always assume both opponents are of equal skill level and intelligence or it defeats the point of MU analysis.

If you wanted to discuss mix-ups, I suggest you revolve it around the core analysis I just provided.

Ex: If f-air causes shielding habits, you can always bait into a grab or advancing d-air to reposition yourself and gain stage control. If n-air always causes a retreating response (b-air or pivot grab), then PK fire can be considered to force the approach. If d-air is being cut off by pre-emptive aerials, then you can consider what is normally the sub-optimal option: running into/under him, shielding if necessary, and using your dash/OoS options from there (u-air, whatever). Or SHFFAD instead of full hop d-air and bait him into being the one in the air? I think it's stupid but it works,

Knowing when to spot dodge helps. Knowing when to bait a f-tilt and not just jump all the time (ie. knowing when not to use the three RPS options above) helps even more.

I'm sure you guys can think of more stuff.

There's my 2 cents. I'm not a Lucas main, nor do I play Lucas at all or ever plan to, but I've played enough Lucas mains for a lifetime, played enough D3s to make me want to drop my character sometimes, and have seen various styles of the Lucas v D3 MU that entitle me to a respectable opinion.

Cheeri-Oats said:
cross-up the landings when Neutral-Airing or even Up-Airing; never Down-Air on shield, and even with a well-spaced forward air, if you don't get the auto-cancel, you're grabbed. Good point on PK Fire, but it's a good bait; and our game is actually really good against Dedede. We should never get Up-tilted on ground because our jab serves as an interrupt, and even if we're spaced with the forward-tilt, our goal is to bait it, perfect shield, and then neutral-air OOS or forward-air OOS for the punish.

Don't let the ****er land without getting punished.

[/collapse]

Deleted member · Apr 25, 2011

With a lot of matchups, I like to short hop -> PK Fire, but on DeDeDe, that just isn't safe at all. Sometimes you'll get lucky and score a hit, but when D3 is tossing his minions at you, you're setting yourself up to take a hit from a Gordo. If D3 powershields the PK Fire, you're gonna get grabbed as well. I find it best to just do grounded PK Fire's if he's throwing his minions. It will go beneath and hit the King.

But hey, at least we can bat the Gordo back at him. :3

The thing I like about this matchup is pressuring D3's shield. Doing a little keep away with short hop -> fair is handy, but nair can eat away at his shield, sometimes poking it. Also, D3's size makes dairing a lot of fun. He will often bounce hard against the ground, putting him in a bad position.

rPSIvysaur · Apr 25, 2011

IMO this is a pretty bad MU for Lucas.
-3 for Lucas.
Lucas ground game is just entirely shut out due to grab just beating nearly every thing. If Lucas tries to even zone, DDD just has to throw out an f-tilt and it beats everything on the ground. There's not much Lucas can really do in this MU without getting grabbed. Lucas can try full-hop f-air against DDD since he's so tall, but then Lucas has to try to land after that, and it's just not fun. The only way to really go about this MU is to get a lead and camp him to death. DDD's pretty easy to camp with any character, and is Lucas' best answer to this MU.
A tip for when he's in the air and is landing facing towards you, you can pretty much d-smash really safely. The problem is that DDD can turn around in mid-air, and Lucas doesn't really have anything that can beat b-air, letting DDD landing safely.

@Auspher, make sure you do a dash away turn-around PK Fire, they're always safe on PS. Just make sure not to b-reverse it.

Chuee · Apr 25, 2011

RocketPSIence said:
IMO this is a pretty bad MU for Lucas.
-3 for Lucas.
Lucas ground game is just entirely shut out due to grab just beating nearly every thing. If Lucas tries to even zone, DDD just has to throw out an f-tilt and it beats everything on the ground. There's not much Lucas can really do in this MU without getting grabbed. Lucas can try full-hop f-air against DDD since he's so tall, but then Lucas has to try to land after that, and it's just not fun. The only way to really go about this MU is to get a lead and camp him to death. DDD's pretty easy to camp with any character, and is Lucas' best answer to this MU.
A tip for when he's in the air and is landing facing towards you, you can pretty much d-smash really safely. The problem is that DDD can turn around in mid-air, and Lucas doesn't really have anything that can beat b-air, letting DDD landing safely.

@Auspher, make sure you do a dash away turn-around PK Fire, they're always safe on PS. Just make sure not to b-reverse it.

@ftilt: running PS, and it's punishable, though D3 can predict and grab.
You can also space a SH fair and not get grabbed unless he can pivot grab it or something.
but, imo it's worse than other -2's (mk) but not as bad as our -3's like snake and marth.

KoozyK · Apr 26, 2011

As with most of our MU's approaching is hard as f**k.
D3 has an ftild that goes through basically everything we have. if youre feeling froggy and you think you can time this right, catch the ftilt on the last bit of its frames (12 Frames), the second part of our pkfire will work.
D3 throws Waddel Dee's, Waddel Doo's and Gordo's.
Waddel Dee's- 5% fresh, 2% stale. they walk around and if youre not careful they hit hit you.
Waddel Doo's- hits the same as Waddle Dee's. The Doo ray does 30% if you get hit by all of it. Absorb this, if d3 in not in range of you. you get a free 68% back.
Gordo's- does 26% fresh and does 10% completely stale..<-- this info about it being stale is basically pointless (if you get hit by a stale gordo, all i have to say is wow) Bat these *****es back at him, or power shield. if you shield it regularly they will bounce away and float around the stage depending on the angle it hit the shield.
Items- if a item gets thrown, make sure all items are turned off and set to none of the frequency.

with nair, never land in front of D3!
The chaingrab sux for us- try not to get grabbed. i know its hard but we can do it.
the chaingab can be followed up by ftilt and back air if you dont DI it correctly

Utilt is ridiculous, not only does it look stupid, it kills stupid too. If you try to approach in the air remember that D3 has this 12 frames. I dont recommend a fast fall nair unless uve mindgamed it. and if you use dair make sure that you dont land in front of him.

Counter stages where you feel most comfortable. Brinstar is good ( if they dont have a pocket MK) , and BF and the pokemon stadiums could be good if you want to use the stages platforms and randomness.
BAN Delfino. the stage has so many places where you can get walked of its not funny. he can gert back alot easier through the stage.
Ban fd, makes it harder to approach than befoe if the D3 was to be a DEE DEE **** and camp. plus chain grab obviously ***** here.

Ps. MIND GAME MIND GAME. and READ!!! we can win any match if we do these correctly. nothing is impossible.
Correct me if im wrong in any of this

Chuee · Apr 26, 2011

Ftilt is 12 frames?
Then if you have good reaction time you might be able to PS it.
Waddle Doo's should only be used by D3 to block pk fires. It's really slow and laggy so if you can, punish it.
Janky stages are your best bet for CPs against D3.
Brinstar is your best against him, if he bans it try frigate or maybe norfair if it's legal. Don't cp RC, he's actually better than you'd think there. You're first priority for banning is Delfino. You have to play ridiculously safe on the walk off/wall transformations.

rPSIvysaur · Apr 26, 2011

The problem with F-tilt is that it destroys any zoning that Lucas tries to do, not that you can just running PS it. (meaning you're running in and shielding against D3

)

IDK, I think I'd rather ban FD against D3 than Delfino. You can usually just camp during the walk-offs/walls and wait for the stage to change back. But I still wouldn't want to go there.

Chuee, assume that we're using the BBRRC stage list, so norfair is a no-go.
Also don't forget about PS2

Chuee · Apr 26, 2011

PS2 is too janky for me.

KoozyK · Apr 26, 2011

better than when greengreens was legal. getting wall infinite and praying for a bomb block is never funn

rPSIvysaur · Apr 26, 2011

Chuee said:
PS2 is too janky for me.

This is D3 we're talking about. We NEED janky stages.

Chuee · Apr 26, 2011

PS2 isn't the kind of jank you like against D3.

rPSIvysaur · Apr 26, 2011

You don't know how to Jank then.

T-block · Apr 26, 2011

D3 gets d-throw > d-smash on Ice transformation I believe. Forget about approaching on Electric. Ground is probably pretty neutral in this matchup - the wall shouldn't be an issue.

Flying transformation would be hella fun against D3 though.

PS2 wouldn't be my first choice (Brinstar for sure), but it wouldn't be horrible. Definitely don't go PS1 though imo.

rPSIvysaur · Apr 26, 2011

I'd got to Brinstar, but lots of D3's have pocket MKs

Chuee · Apr 26, 2011

Pocket MK
NOT AFRAID

Randum · Apr 26, 2011

How to play D3:
- Wavebounced PK Fire
- Retreating aerials
- Mindgames
- Don't airdodge to the ground, ever. Don't even z-air to the ground
- Retreating f-air is amazing for zoning
- Most D3's will shield when you get close or pressure him. Use this opportunity to grab. Just be careful though
- If he's jumping, he's most likely coming down with a b-air. Keep that in mind.
- Ftilt destroys us, more PK Fire.
- PK Fire.
- More f**king PK Fire
- He will powershield most of your PK Fires, so make sure they retreat!
- PK Fire's second hit will go through ftilt when the D3 is spacing. USE IT MOAR
- Try to get D3 off the stage as much as possible
- If the D3 is using up-b to recover and will end up falling on the stage, u-smash is obvious and he will avoid it. Disrupt his DI with an fsmash since it reflects those annoying stars and hits almost every time. If he stops his up-b early, run to the edge and edgehog. He'd most likely be aiming there. If he passes the ledge, he'll fall onto the stage, which gives you a free f-air. Keep in mind that he might still be able to shield any other aerial and grab.
- Best kill option is dsmash since it's hard to shield grab. Just don't use it recklessly.

That's all I have, I haven't played many D3's. Correct me if any of it is wrong.

But overall, I feel that it is a -2.5 because of Lucas' minimal options. 65:35 D3, imo. Not AS hard as Martha and Snake. Those two are just impossible to approach.

Deleted member · Apr 27, 2011

Too much PK fire just isn't safe in this matchup. :/

As for stages, I actually don't have too much of an issue on Delfino vs. D3. I would ban FD before anything else. Strike PS1 for sure. It wouldn't be a bad idea to also strike Castle Siege due to the long period you have to deal with a walkoff in the second transformation. Counter-picking Brinstar doesn't sound like a bad idea as long as you can deal with the risk of a pocket Meta Knight.

I don't have much D3 experience on PS2, so that stage I'm unsure about.

Chuee · Apr 27, 2011

Auspher said:
Too much PK fire just isn't safe in this matchup. :/

Depends.If it's spaced right, it's fairly safe.

Auspher said:
As for stages, I actually don't have too much of an issue on Delfino vs. D3.

I'd still ban delfino. Even though you can camp on the walls/walkoffs, he can still approach you and possibly get a grab.

Auspher said:
I would ban FD before anything else.

I'd ban that or CS after Delfino

Auspher said:
Strike PS1 for sure.

I guess, though most of the walls are easily campable

Auspher said:
It wouldn't be a bad idea to also strike Castle Siege due to the long period you have to deal with a walkoff in the second transformation.

If CS is a starter, then yeah.

Auspher said:
Counter-picking Brinstar doesn't sound like a bad idea as long as you can deal with the risk of a pocket Meta Knight.

Let's just say Brinstar makes the MU a lot more manageable.

Auspher said:
I don't have much D3 experience on PS2, so that stage I'm unsure about.

Never CPed that stage and never will.

KoozyK · Apr 27, 2011

Damnnnss chuee. You go at Ausphers reasonable input over overspammed pk fire....

you can only use retreating PK fire so much before D3 is in your face because of powershields and ftilts.

and id also like to go ahead and say, we need to find another legit CP since Brinstar will more than likely be banned if they win the first match.

T-block · Apr 27, 2011

I might go to Battlefield with the intent of camping him out.

Deleted member · Apr 27, 2011

Lylat or Yoshi's Island?

rPSIvysaur · Apr 27, 2011

Yoshi's is a terrible stage for Lucas anyway around.

Lylat seems okay for this MU...

Chuee · Apr 27, 2011

I would go to Jungle Japes and be an ***

Randum · Apr 27, 2011

Strike FD.
Ban Delfino. (CS is gud for Lucas. Extra large stage, extra long smashes, easy to camp)
With that, a D3 will most likely ban Brinstar. The only time they wouldn't ban it is if they have a pocket MK.
CP Lylat. It just destroys D3. Plus, camping is far easier and zap jumps are more useful with the higher ceilings. Fsmash kills early because of the close horizontal blast zones.

ZTD | TECHnology · Apr 28, 2011

Hmmm no D3 input on this? Well let's change this!

The overall concept of fighting DDD is pretty simple. What's not simple for Lucas is reliably overcoming the obstacles we'll have set.

DDD is the epitome of defense. Everything about him. His range, weight..everything. A good DDD will attempt to keep in mid range. Far enough to keep you out of his vulnerable spots (which is in his face and below him) with F-Tilt, D-Tilt and Back Air but close enough for him to punish you with grabs. Lucas's options vs this classic style of DDD play aren't very plentiful. He'll have to stay on the move and camp DDD as hard as he can until he can force some sort of opening. However DDD's range gives him a giant edge here. **** grab range/swallow + grab armor helps us a LOT if we know how to abuse it.

Approaching via the ground is really hard for Lucas. F-Tilt is sooooo safe. PK Fire gets beaten by F-Tilt or at least the initial hit if I remember right. Down Smash does give you guys an option and its pretty hard to punish but its still not something you want to throw out to often of course. If you're going to approach it should be via the air. You need to just camp until you get some sort of opening. You need to stay on the move though. Wavebounce the PK Fires always. Of course keep in mind we have a big *** shield and we can PS to grab if we're fast enough. You just have to mix up your timings and such.

If we're approaching our main option is Back air. It does everything. However we can switch it up. Forward air has a HUGE hitbox. It hits behind us also so airdodging into us is a bad idea. We also can just B-reversal swallow which is a **** mixup. Its a grab also so we get grab armor and it has great range. So even if you manage to react to it a lot of times we'll still just swallow you anyway. We don't mind trading hits.

What else...

Oh. Your end goal is to get us off the stage and force us to use our really punishable recovery. You can't really chase off the stage but you can at least predict what we're going to do. We'll usually try to go to the ledge but in the end its a giant guessing game. Its rare we'll try to just land on the stage without canceling because of your Up_Smash..perfect for ****** a foolish attempt ...lol. We'll usually try to cancel Up B. Of course the trick is making us use it. You do have PK Thunder but its so laggy that we get past it we're making back on the stage. I don't know off the top of my head all of your options for edgeguarding us however so someone can fill in that blank.

Our goal is just wait for you to screw up and grab. That's it. Once we get you to the ledge we'll attempt to gimp you which isn't TOO hard but a smart Lucas can make it back. You must avoid the WEAK hit of Back Air at all costs. If you get hit at a mid or high percent you won't make it back on the stage. It hits at a bad trajectory for you guys by sending you on a slightly downward angle.

Assuming we're using Unity Ruleset:

Go for YI. Not the strongest starter for us. The high ceiling weakens one of best killers...up tilt. Plus the large platform is just a pain for us. No good really comes from it. Lylat is also solid because the tilting nature of the stage can screw up our chaingrab.

As far as CPs..DDD will almost always ban Brinstar. We are bad on that stage and negates a lot of what makes this MU so bad for Lucas.

I'd ban Delfino or Rainbow personally. Both of those stages are pretty good for us. Delfino is awesome for us as we have walk off CG chances and the low ceiling on some parts of the stage give us an early kill. And since the stage is always changing its hard for Lucas to continue camping us. Rainbow is pretty much the same concept minus the low ceiling. We have chances to wall infinite we can move around the stage pretty well with Platform Canceling and we outrange Lucas in the air so we can just wall him.

Castle Siege is a personal favorite because of the 2nd phase of the stage and on the first part of the stage Lucas has no room to run with.

Final Destination could also be good for us. FD really isn't s stage we CP that often when the opponent has solid projectile though..

As far as what you should take us to..Yoshi's isn't an bad option. Its one of our worst stages period. Hmmm Ive never played a Lucas in tournament though so I actually am unsure that as well. I mean what screws us over are stages that high ceilings and can interrupt our Chaingrabs. Frigate could be a solid option when I think about it. The one ledge thing isn't great for Lucas but its bad for also because if you feel confident about making us use Up -B and we're caught on the stage...we have no choice but to land on the stage...which can be punished. There's platforms also to help you evade us. Lylat is also solid..actually that'd be one my first bans against someone who's trying to run from us the entire time/someone we NEED to CG.

I'd post more but I'm still half asleep..lol

T-block · Apr 28, 2011

Randum said:
CS is gud for Lucas. Extra large stage, extra long smashes, easy to camp

You must play terrible players lol

U-smash statue, Dedede waits, Dedede grabs, Lucas dies. You can't rely on your opponent not realizing the hitbox is prolonged.

Good stuff TC. How does Dedede get past PKT without using an early up-b though? PKT seems like a nightmare for an off-stage Dedede.

Disagree on Yoshi's Island. I'm pretty sure it's worse for Lucas than it is for Dedede. The ceiling isn't higher btw... it's same height as BF/FD/SV.

Chuee · Apr 28, 2011

T-block said:
You must play terrible players lol

U-smash statue, Dedede waits, Dedede grabs, Lucas dies. You can't rely on your opponent not realizing the hitbox is prolonged.

Good stuff TC. How does Dedede get past PKT without using an early up-b though? PKT seems like a nightmare for an off-stage Dedede.

Disagree on Yoshi's Island. I'm pretty sure it's worse for Lucas than it is for Dedede. The ceiling isn't higher btw... it's same height as BF/FD/SV.

Usmash on platform is actually really legit though, until they learn the timing of it.

ZTD | TECHnology · Apr 28, 2011

Isn't the ground lower though?

And like I said I don't know I great deal about this MU however I feel like its a not so good stage for us. It could be worse for Lucas though. I just don't know enough about the character. I just know its like our worst neutral.

PKT is pretty solid against us as long as you know how to influence our movements. Its just a big guessing game. I will say that our Fastfall airdodge is REALLY good for helping us get back on the stage/avoiding stuff. Our fastfall speed us unrivaled and combined with our airdodge it gets us out of a lot of bad situations. PKT isn't fast enough to chase us IF we avoid it using this method. But yeah we're cornered we'll just use UP B and go through PKT since we have SA frames on UP-B's ascension. We might take damage but its better then what COULD happen we allow ourselves to get hit by without the SA frames.

Deleted member · Apr 28, 2011

I've seen some D3's try to go for the ledge with Up-B from a lower level, then cancelling it quickly...perfect time for Lucas to be guarding the ledge with his D-smash. That's another reason why Lylat is good because of the thin edge and the mid-height thin platforms. D3 will try and up-tilt us if we land on those, but if we're fast enough, D-smash will get him , or at least push him away and give us a chance to move.

I never really had too many issues playing as Lucas on YI, so I don't know...otherwise, it seems like Lylat or Brinstar(if they don't ban it) are our top counter-picks.

#HBC | J · Apr 28, 2011

DDD's hard.

-3 or like -2 would be a good place to stick him because you have to WORK for this win if you want to win. He makes it really tough for poor Lucas. D=

I used to CP PS2 against DDD's and that seemed to help more then hurt so that's where I recommend taking him. The more you have to work with the better.

Another thingy, make him come to you, don't go to him.

Randum · Apr 28, 2011

T-block said:
You must play terrible players lol

U-smash statue, Dedede waits, Dedede grabs, Lucas dies. You can't rely on your opponent not realizing the hitbox is prolonged.

Don't imply stupidity. Lmao, what Lucas would just stand there and smash? Use it to your advantage when camping or when the D3 approaches. Dsmash is surprising when the D3 goes for a grab and shields because there's 3 long hits. I'm not saying go up to the statue and recklessly smash. I guess I should be more specific, but w/e. Also, there are many platforms that prevent walk off CGs and supply a huge amount of time when going for a timeout. The 3rd transformation changes it's tilt and has a steep lift in the middle where D3 can't CG. The first transformation has tight horizontal boundaries for Lucas to kill early with fsmash, even with perfect DI. Every transformation plays a good roll for Lucas, so I think CS is a good CP. Not as good as Lylat though. Like TC said, the tilts prevent CGs and the many platforms are helpful.

#HBC | J · Apr 28, 2011

I feel like dragging Pink Fresh's old quote in that one thread about DDD.

Hahaha, PF how's the DDD treating ya as of late?

~Pink Fresh~ · Apr 28, 2011

Everyone thinks I'm insane when it comes to this mu. T sucks for lucas. Alot. The only good things we have are juggling, keeping him offstage, and... well that's it. We get pushed to the ledge of the stage as ddd slowly approaches by walking and using ftilt/powershielding our lol pk fire. We struggle to get back onstage, whih is how ddd gets most of the damage and kos. Utilt > pkt2 T_T more stuff, but typing on dying phone. Maybe laterrr.

Chuee · Apr 28, 2011

PF comes out of hiding.
=o

T-block · Apr 29, 2011

Randum said:
Don't imply stupidity. Lmao, what Lucas would just stand there and smash? Use it to your advantage when camping or when the D3 approaches. Dsmash is surprising when the D3 goes for a grab and shields because there's 3 long hits. I'm not saying go up to the statue and recklessly smash. I guess I should be more specific, but w/e. Also, there are many platforms that prevent walk off CGs and supply a huge amount of time when going for a timeout. The 3rd transformation changes it's tilt and has a steep lift in the middle where D3 can't CG. The first transformation has tight horizontal boundaries for Lucas to kill early with fsmash, even with perfect DI. Every transformation plays a good roll for Lucas, so I think CS is a good CP. Not as good as Lylat though. Like TC said, the tilts prevent CGs and the many platforms are helpful.

If the tactic relies on your opponent being surprised by the fact that the hitboxes are out for longer, then it's not relevant at high level play. That's all I'm saying.

Deleted member · May 1, 2011

So what number are we gonna slap on this? I'm feeling -2, and others have posted from -2 to even -3, but I don't think it's that bad.

#HBC | J · May 1, 2011

-2 sounds good to me but you might not wanna close it juuuuuuuuuust yet.

Deleted member · May 1, 2011

Yeah, I'm still gonna give it some time. I tried to get some more D3 mains in here to discuss the MU, but no luck in their boards.

Time to contact Kiest!

#HBC | J · May 1, 2011

Yea Pink said he might wanna say some things as well about this MU and he should know it extremely well if he still plays Coney as much as he used to.

rPSIvysaur · May 1, 2011

IMO it's -3.

The MU is terrible for Lucas. Snake level terrible IMO.

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