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El cazador de la nocturno-Lucario matchup discussion

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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OK! Lets get this ball rollin. Any discussion relevant to mu will be discussed here ratios at the bottom of your post dont post a ratio w/o specific relevant info. k thx.

relevant being...
advantages/disadvantages of stages
cp's
ban's
bread n' butter moves
Things to watch out for
How to approach it
things to keep in mind
etc. etc.



:229:

Go!

P.S. ALL MATCHUP THREADS WILL NOW BE APPROXIMATELY 2 WEEKS IN LENGHT. The ones that are finished early good. We can then move on. So work as quick as possible to get as many PoV as possible!! The faster you guys discuss the faster i do this mu thread!!!
 

dualseeker

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Pit: One of the greatest Heroes of our time
Lucario is pretty tough to deal with ^^;. His ability to grow more powerful the more damage he takes coupled with our lack of killing power does not make a good situation for us ^^;. Thankfully, though, he can be gimped easily if you know how to deal with his recovery. A simple footstool can mean an instant stock lead for you if he recovers low.

One of the most annoying things about Lucario is his range. Almost all of his attacks have ridiculous range and outrange all of ours. Since his attacks reach so far, I don't encourage engaging in close quarter combat; instead, we should do what we do best; camp. Pit should be staying far away from him and camping, wracking up damage with Arrows, and waiting for the best chance to strike him. Pit should also be ready to counter attack Lucario whenever he gets close and push him away; FAR away.

When Lucario is at kill percentage, Pit should still be forcing him to approach. The reason why I don't encourage approaching Lucario at this point is that his power will be ridiculously stronger than before, and he could possibly kill Pit with one Fsmash, even if Pit is at a low percentage. Wait for a chance to strike Lucario safely, maybe after you block an Fsmash or another laggy smash that Lucario has. Repeat this for the rest of the match.

Lucario beats us in the air as well. His aerials also have ridiculous range and power, and his Dair will stop us in our tracks when we try to juggle him. If you do launch him up in the air, try to just shoot him with Arrows instead of chasing after him. Dair can be fatal if he is at a high percentage, so you should try to land KO's while he's on the ground, since his aerials create an effective shield all around him.

For stages, Pit should go to stages that give him plenty of room to run away from Lucario. Small stages will make it difficult to avoid his long reaching moves. Stages like FD, SV, PS1 or 2, or any other stage that will allow Pit to run away would be good. Also, it might be wise to keep yourself from trying to shark Lucario, as a SH Dair will definitely be his response.

Stages with short blast zones are stages that we should avoid, since Lucario will be able to kill us much easier since his power grows along with his damage.

Hope I was able to provide good information ^^;. I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting something important, though....
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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Kk good stuff for a first post~

But i disagree with two things...the don't chase after him in air and the sharking.

If you shark right...it's pretty safe. You just have to pick your battles in a similar way you would against peach. Also @ juggling its kind of like GaW dair, tink dair, etc etc. Just angle it to the side a bit. Also if you arrow upwards towards his dair it'll clank letting u jump and uair. As a third response, you can SDI the first of dair and buffer a bair or fair.
 

dualseeker

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Pit: One of the greatest Heroes of our time
Ah, I see. Thanks for the input ^^;. Lucario's dair is pretty scary since it stops his aerial movement.

I also didn't know that the Arrow would clank with his Dair. That's good to know ^__^. Still, Lucario is a tough Match Up... Although I'm not really sure what number to give it... Either it's even or +1 Lucario.
 

Luckay4Lyphe

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Well Lucario is a beast if played in the right hands like Trela or Junebug. He has quick moves, combos, disjointed hitboxes, rolls that are on par with our own, and insane kill power when he has enough damage.
The matchup is kind of determined by who gets the first kill because whoever dies first is going to have a tough time coming back for a while.
Obviously our arrows are no joke in this matchup. Lucario is floaty and if we get him offstage we can get at least an extra 10-20% from just arrows if we aim right. That added to grabbing the ledge is a guarenteed free hit because Lucario's extreme speed doesn't have a hitbox for whatever reason and can't knock us off the ledge so he is forced to land onstage with his up b.
Aura sphere is a big part of his game as well, but we have mirror shield and a charged aura sphere with double the knockback will kill lucario at 100 so don't forget to down b. Make him more afraid of his own move. Although, when we are offstage and Lucario tries to aura sphere us, don't think that mirror shield will protect you 100% of the time because if we land on top of the aura sphere it won't be reflected because it touches our feet. I've died offstage from junebug AND trela this way I believe.
He is floaty and light so fresh fsmash at about 130 should do the trick. This is crucial because if you land a kill move and don't kill him then he will give you hell for it. You might lose 2 stocks before he loses his first.

CP'S: Final Destination is good, but everyone bans this against us. Go here if they don't ban it though. Safest place for Pit. Other stages are Halberd, Rainbow Cruise (Don't go here if they have pocket metaknight), and maybe Delinfo because the transformations where the blast zones are small might hurt us.
BANS: Frigate because He can wall cling on the part where you can't grab the edge and we can't. June likes to go here so it must be good for lucario in other ways. Yoshi's, Picto, and the pokemon stadiums are also bad stages to go to. One we can't fly over them, and two Lucario will wall us here forever. He can just spam forward smash and keep us on the ledge. We also can't plank as well on these stages.

Bread and Butter Moves: Jab combo is always nice, retreat dair his aerial approaches, Usmash is a great punisher in the mu, arrows offstage, and spaced uair.

Things to watch out for: His dair stops momentum so he may use it to stall in the air or he could use it right over the top of our heads. If he is right above us then expect him to use it, don't try to punish before he uses it either because it comes out lightning fast. Shield it then usmash oos. It also defeats our uair if it hits us in the middle of it so that's why we have to space it. If he is comboing you always expect him to end it with aura sphere so if you think the combo is over it isn't just yet. His uair and bair offstage are like secret kill moves with lasting hitboxes so be afraid of those. His fsmash has IASA frames so don't try to punish the ending lag. Instead predict it and punish the crappy start up with dash attack. They usually cancel their second jab into a grab, SDI away and we might be able to escape.
How to approach it: Uhhh, don't approach? lol If you need to ease your way in there by walking not running so you can shield whatever punish he tries. If you have momentum then rush in there, but do it smartly by getting reads and using safe yet rewarding moves depending on the situation.

things to keep in mind: fthrow>ss fsmash works I believe, since he has like no fall speed moves that kill of the top like glair, dair, and fresh usmash can be useful kill moves around 140 to 150, DO NOT USE ANGEL RING CLOSE TO HIM because he will punish with an easy fsmash. Be very careful when trying to get back from the ledge because chances are they are hungry to fsmash you.

50:50 until the first stock, then 55:45 in the person who's winning's favor.
 

Xcallion

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Lucario will try to bait a reflector with aura sphere. He'll pull it out for a second, shield cancel it and punish with f-smash. Never react with a reflector only use it on a hard predict. Never forget that luke is more afraid of a reflected aura sphere than we are of taking it. Lucario has a psuedo CG with his force palm so watch out for that at all %'s. His throws are ridiculous because their power grows with aura as well so they are viable kill moves for him. I mentioned in the doubles thread that Counter is also based on aura so if you hit him with an arrow and he counters it's just as strong as a countered F-smash. Pit's U-air is amazing in most matchups. Dont use it in this one Lucario's dair is teh sexiest aerial in the game and it beats many u-airs including our own. Camp but dont plank too much. Disjointed hitboxes thrown at the the edge will eventually hit you for a lot of knockback mabey even a kill. Try to gimp lucario as his recovery does no damage making it mostly safe to follow him off the edge and we can make recovering hell for him with out fair/bair threat.

That's all for now, but i'll probably have something else later.
 

dualseeker

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Well, since Mirror Shield doesn't cover our legs in the air, we could just substitute that for Angel Ring. However, you shouldn't hold it for long, just long enough that it reflects Aura Sphere if he does use it.

I liked the vids, they were very good ^__^.
 

Kuro~

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I just wanna say we can JCUS his dair on shield...that and i think it's 55:45 pit. Idk how lucarios could say we wont gimp him...it's worse than us vs falco in the gimping department. We can use arrows to bait airdodge and hit them with that and if we chase after them what are they gonna do? Attack us and let them selves fall lower while we barely move from their moves? I also think pit camps him hard between FH dairs, WoI fairs/retreating to ledge, spaced retreating ff fairs is unpunishable. If done optimally that is...so like 60-70% of the time when mastered. Um...can't we just use our "Special" angles to avoid the fair canceling arrows? I mean really...Also our jab is faster than anything he has on the ground bar his utilt which has same frame as us. We also have a Frame 6 tilt with amazing range that beats his ftilt...
 

Luckay4Lyphe

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Lucario will try to bait a reflector with aura sphere. He'll pull it out for a second, shield cancel it and punish with f-smash. Never react with a reflector only use it on a hard predict.
lol if he uses fsmash on our mirror shield that isn't much of a punish since it won't do any damage. Even if we dropped the mirror shield we would have enough time for a regular shield. You don't have to only whip out mirror shield for predicting.

@ dualseeker, angel ring would work, but we have such bad ending lag with that. We might not be able to recover afterwards if lucario walls us offstage.
 

Luckay4Lyphe

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Good vids, but year old footage. I know for a fact Trela is 10 times better than that now so go play him and get some recent sets Maha and Esca! lol
 

Maharba the Mystic

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i will next time i see him luckay. that is if the wii is hacked. also mirror shield is good against lucario as you can wave bounce it in the air and even if you think he will not actually shoot the aura sphere when you are grounded it will still block fsmash and just push you away from him unless you are literally right in front of him (which wouldn't make since if he was shooting at you)

don't forget wingdash owns this match up for approaching an aura sphere camping lucario. but then again why are you approaching? you may answer "because im down a stock," but then again, why are you down a stock?
 

fUddO

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Don't try to punish his Fsmash if you don't power shield it. Most of the time you end up getting shield grabbed or jab combo'd.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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well if 2 of the best players for each character play this MU regularly against each other, i would think that their opinions on the MU hold more weight than those of us who don't play it regularly or don't play it against top level players.

however i gotta say the few times i played tR3l@, idk why but it's like lucario does all his normal good lucario stuff, but pit's moveset just seems to work really well against him for no reason. it's just one of those MUs for me i guess. however trela is trela and until i play him in tournament i can't honestly say i've played him at his finest. but if he goes to HOM2 then i will for sure
 

Nitrix

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- Arrow Lucario when he is offstage to force him into awkward moments. Remember his recovery has lag during start up so you can repeatedly knock him out of it

- Try to make him forget he has AS by arrowing a ton. Have him react to you, not the other way around.


Honestly I feel Pit has an advantage against Lucario. I just can't pin down why
 

Abel1994

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Lucario is my worst MU. Im juat not use to his Daire and his range and how it lags so that when I sidestep I still get hit :(
 

Luckay4Lyphe

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I think solution is use no more side step and held shield button so even if it lags it still wont hit and daire is same just shield and he wont hit
 

Xcallion

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We've had no lucario input in here and the thread is slowly drifting off.
I just asked the lucario mains to drop by. hopefully they'll show up within a day or so.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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To be honest you guys aren't going to have that easy of a time gimping us. I thought by now it was common knowledge to recover high.

Since we are floaty we have the DAir to stall and any of our air attacks can omnom arrows.

We outrange your horizontal air attacks.

Pit's best bet imo is to stay grounded against us, curving that arrow around our hitboxes to hit us and stuff.

Your Jab and Tilts give us trouble when we try to go CQC, so you'll commonly see us try to get you guys in the air for juggling.

One thing I personally like to do is fire some Baby Aura Spheres under your Arrow, even if both of us are hit. Your uncharged Arrow's base is 5%, right? Well, Baby Aura Spheres can range from 5-10%.

Personally I think Lucario wins this 55:45, but I could be wrong, I'd like to see what the others say.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'm gonna state there are mixed feels from both sides about this, both sides think they have the advantage on each other. Both sides seems to have players who think their character wins, just from what I have observed.

My experience? I've played Chompy once in tourny half a year ago and once in a lulzy friendly where I footstooled killed twice trying to be ballzy with offstage stuff, lol love that vid.

I think when I helped with he chart I said +1 Lucario and first since I thought Pit had issues with killing outside of Bair and his range wasn't large enough to be effective zoning when at times Lucario could just beat it out himself. I settled for 0 since I could see it being even and I lack experience outside of wifi which I avoid siting as a source when possible.

Pit's aerials when used right actually are good for him on block against Lucario if used with jumps and good spacing, Pit out-camps Lucario because he has arrows that he can change the timing on release and two reflectors for a mix-up to change between them. Aura Sphere needs to be used on a read or when Pit is in the air, treat it like anyone with a reflector or a magnet where you need to get the reaction you want, mirror shield so you can grab not sure about smashes and such since I dunno if they would go through even with the transcendent priority they have.

Pit's jab is faster but it doesn't outrange most of Lucario's moves, can't recall whose jab is longer range wise.

FD is good for camping but not gimping, and due to the size helps Lucario live longer which is why I love this stage normally. YI is good for Lucario to CP since it helps with the walls on the sides to recover for an option and shy guys sometimes.

Let me see if I can think of other things later, what do you guys think about the MU from the Pit perspective, because I think can Pit force him to recover awkwardly but not to the point of a gimp like Marth, MK, and co can force a gimp much harder.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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awesome, you guys are here. thx for joining the discussion.

you shouldn't be gimping a good pit at all really unless you have CP'd him to a stage he can't go under. between glide and WOI we can go back and forth under stages fast so getting gimped is highly unlikely. and since you as lucario don't wanna go down that far it's not too hard to recover against you (except at like YI, which is pit's worst stage anyways for the most part).

pit has the faster/longer jab range.

when it comes to killing, if pit is close all of his grounded kill moves come out very fast, the problem of course being getting inside. our dsmash should kill you at 150% fresh and comes out on frame 5. our fsmash should kill around 130% and comes out of frame 6.

another note on aura spheres is that we can wing dash through them in addition to our refletors.

honestly i think it's an even 0 match up because it all boils down to who punishes who better for what mistakes. lucario has the mid and mid long range on us but we have the close and far range on him. we both punish hard and apparently we both are good at pressuring recovery. in exchange for out camping you, you have physical range. in exchange for our aerials being better for retreating and spacing, yours are better for approaching and combo-ing. we both both have hard cps on each other (rainbow and halberd for us, YI and PK stadiums for you). ill post more later as im going to sync's house today i think and trela practically lives there so ill try to get in some games.
 

Kuro~

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I'm gonna state there are mixed feels from both sides about this, both sides think they have the advantage on each other. Both sides seems to have players who think their character wins, just from what I have observed.

My experience? I've played Chompy once in tourny half a year ago and once in a lulzy friendly where I footstooled killed twice trying to be ballzy with offstage stuff, lol love that vid.

I think when I helped with he chart I said +1 Lucario and first since I thought Pit had issues with killing outside of Bair and his range wasn't large enough to be effective zoning when at times Lucario could just beat it out himself. I settled for 0 since I could see it being even and I lack experience outside of wifi which I avoid siting as a source when possible.

Pit's aerials when used right actually are good for him on block against Lucario if used with jumps and good spacing, Pit out-camps Lucario because he has arrows that he can change the timing on release and two reflectors for a mix-up to change between them. Aura Sphere needs to be used on a read or when Pit is in the air, treat it like anyone with a reflector or a magnet where you need to get the reaction you want, mirror shield so you can grab not sure about smashes and such since I dunno if they would go through even with the transcendent priority they have.

Pit's jab is faster but it doesn't outrange most of Lucario's moves, can't recall whose jab is longer range wise.

FD is good for camping but not gimping, and due to the size helps Lucario live longer which is why I love this stage normally. YI is good for Lucario to CP since it helps with the walls on the sides to recover for an option and shy guys sometimes.

Let me see if I can think of other things later, what do you guys think about the MU from the Pit perspective, because I think can force him to recover awkwardly but not to the point of a gimp like Marth, MK, and co can force.
Pit is actually better for gimping in this part imo at least more so than marth. Especially with Wing refresh. Our fair has the same range so we can use arrows to force you to go in a direction ( to avoid them) then if you get on the ledge we have good edge guarding abilities to reset the situation. You can't even safely land on stage unless we make a wrong read. We can JCUsmash your dair on shield and can just grab you out of any airdodges to set up more juggling. Wing refresh allows us to chase you and be on you QUICK. We can also footstool you so if we read your airdodge when we come at you we can footstool AND still have all our jumps. I agree FD is not a game changer imo. Honestly though YI isn't a huge game changer either. Ya you can wall cling, but it helps our CQC game.

As for the CQC thing,
I just wanna say we can JCUS his dair on shield...that and i think it's 55:45 pit. Idk how lucarios could say we wont gimp him...it's worse than us vs falco in the gimping department. We can use arrows to bait airdodge and hit them with that and if we chase after them what are they gonna do? Attack us and let them selves fall lower while we barely move from their moves? I also think pit camps him hard between FH dairs, WoI fairs/retreating to ledge, spaced retreating ff fairs is unpunishable. If done optimally that is...so like 60-70% of the time when mastered. Um...can't we just use our "Special" angles to avoid the fair canceling arrows? I mean really...Also our jab is faster than anything he has on the ground bar his utilt which has same frame as us. We also have a Frame 6 tilt with amazing range that beats his ftilt...
If spaced you can't grab our jab or dtilt and it is faster than all your ground options. However, i do think lucario is better at recovering than flaco after some more extensive looking into. I still think we can force reactions way too easy for it to be simply "dismissed" by you lucarios. The biggest problem against lucario is if he get's you in the air when he is at high %. Is fsmash is a little annoying for pit as well. But it's so slow that we can just retreat or FH dair. I think it's 55:45 pit.

How does lucario do on rainbow, brinstar, delphino, and lylat? In general i mean.

Also, from a lucario perspective what stage would you choose as a cp and why?
 

Maharba the Mystic

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kuro, our dtilt does not outrange his ftilt just to let you know. you said we out range his grounded move set with dtilt and, while almost true, you forgot they have that ftilt. and don't forget that while YI is good for our CQC game, lucario's aerials are better on the approach at YI even with slanted dtilt (and that maaaay outrange their ftilt. someone test this.)
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Ftilt, Fsmash and I think Dtilt outrange Pit's Dtilt, I'm sure about Ftilt and Fsmash out-ranging it at least.

What people forget is that Lucario while having a bad UpB, is still the 5th floatiest character in the game, even with mid level weight, and average air speed. Arrows can be air dodged on reaction coming back, so it's not going to hit him unless you loop it around to try a trick on him.

Lucario can safely land, with B reversal on Aura sphere, Dair stalling, and range on fast aerials he can make Pit be wary of how he tries to go at him on landing.

You can footstool, so can anyone doesn't happen often of at all, difference is due to Lucario's physics, he can stay high a lot better than Falco or other characters, he doesn't fall fast like the others do and have a better air game when recovering.

Marth on the other hand, actually out ranges Lucario a lot more if not almost everywhere, has legit frame traps, and can force better edge-guarding and landing traps due to his Fair and Uair.

Not trying to offend Pit but I can't see him playing a edge-guard and land trap game better than Marth. Pro you have over Marth is that you have a much much better recovery, so we can't edge-guard you as effectively if much at all.
 

Kuro~

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kuro, our dtilt does not outrange his ftilt just to let you know. you said we out range his grounded move set with dtilt and, while almost true, you forgot they have that ftilt. and don't forget that while YI is good for our CQC game, lucario's aerials are better on the approach at YI even with slanted dtilt (and that maaaay outrange their ftilt. someone test this.)
I'm sorry but i find that hard to believe. Maybe it's cuz most of the tiems i did it was mid-match so the spacing couldnt be perfect but idk. I will try to test this tonight. His aura would affect it though. But regardless spaced jab beats all his ground options. Fsmash is the only semi-reliable one. But that's for nearly every matchup.

Ftilt, Fsmash and I think Dtilt outrange Pit's Dtilt, I'm sure about Ftilt and Fsmash out-ranging it at least.

What people forget is that Lucario while having a bad UpB, is still the 5th floatiest character in the game, even with mid level weight, and average air speed. Arrows can be air dodged on reaction coming back, so it's not going to hit him unless you loop it around to try a trick on him.

Lucario can safely land, with B reversal on Aura sphere, Dair stalling, and range on fast aerials he can make Pit be wary of how he tries to go at him on landing.

You can footstool, so can anyone doesn't happen often of at all, difference is due to Lucario's physics, he can stay high a lot better than Falco or other characters, he doesn't fall fast like the others do and have a better air game when recovering.

Marth on the other hand, actually out ranges Lucario a lot more if not almost everywhere, has legit frame traps, and can force better edge-guarding and landing traps due to his Fair and Uair.

Not trying to offend Pit but I can't see him playing a edge-guard and land trap game better than Marth. Pro you have over Marth is that you have a much much better recovery, so we can't edge-guard you as effectively if much at all.
Sorry i think you misunderstood me. We can use arrows as you said you can avoid them, but what you don't understand is arrows allow us to zone in on you while controlling you leading to fairs, uairs etc. Also you can't get off the ledge very easily. Marth is slightly better at cuz of his dtilt+better fair.

Lucario can't safely land with a b-reversal. Like i said we can easily fake him out and just wait on the ground. He doesn't really have a safe option against us to land. But he can land. Just like he can against anyone.

@Footstool thing again misunderstood. I was speaking of how with wingrefresh we have a super fast approach edgeguard technique that leaves us with all jumps left. My point was that you can literally footstool someone while still in Wings of icarus. This lead to the point i made that if you just airdodge to avoid the obvious fair we can read that and footstool. I was just saying there's another option there. No other character can footstool out of a super-fast up b and still have jumps.

I agree pit can't edgeguard as well as marth. But against lucario...it's near the same. Slightly worse.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'm sorry but i find that hard to believe. Maybe it's cuz most of the tiems i did it was mid-match so the spacing couldnt be perfect but idk. I will try to test this tonight. His aura would affect it though. But regardless spaced jab beats all his ground options. Fsmash is the only semi-reliable one. But that's for nearly every matchup.
Are you suggesting aura alters range?

Range is constant. Aura changes shield stun, hitstun, damage and knockback.

Sorry i think you misunderstood me. We can use arrows as you said you can avoid them, but what you don't understand is arrows allow us to zone in on you while controlling you leading to fairs, uairs etc. Also you can't get off the ledge very easily. Marth is slightly better at cuz of his dtilt+better fair.

Lucario can't safely land with a b-reversal. Like i said we can easily fake him out and just wait on the ground. He doesn't really have a safe option against us to land. But he can land. Just like he can against anyone.

@Footstool thing again misunderstood. I was speaking of how with wingrefresh we have a super fast approach edgeguard technique that leaves us with all jumps left. My point was that you can literally footstool someone while still in Wings of icarus. This lead to the point i made that if you just airdodge to avoid the obvious fair we can read that and footstool. I was just saying there's another option there. No other character can footstool out of a super-fast up b and still have jumps.

I agree pit can't edgeguard as well as marth. But against lucario...it's near the same. Slightly worse.
Lucario can fair out arrows if need be as well, not only that but his Dair out-ranges and beats out Pit's Uair, Fair on fair depends how Pit uses it and spaces same with Lucario.

Still your forgetting Lucario usually doesn't end up low, even in this MU Pit can't force the footstool. Your using your UpB to chase as he tries to air-dodge, which again can work if he is going low, but due to his air speed and floaty nature that opportunity is not going to happen as often as your suggesting.

I don't think Pit can force Lucario into really bad situations on the ledge. B-reversal is a mix-up just like it is for everyone who can do it, if you see it coming you can punish anyone in the cast trying it. The fact he can is a plus for landing, in additions with the range of his aerials, some like his dair being frame 4, Pit can't really force hard landing as well on Lucario.

Marth is above Pit by a good margin I don't think it is close when Marth can limit Lucario's options a lot better coming back, actually I think there are a few other characters like G&W who can force the edge guard situations a lot better.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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also on footstooling out of WOI, we can then do another WOI immediately out of it leading to what we call a wind spike because the wind box forces you to go downwards while still in footstool animation. but ya you guys misunderstood that we meant footstooling directly out of WOI.

and no our dtilt outranges yours. yours extends his foot whereas ours extends just the disjointed blade box which hits you foot before your hitbox comes out everytime.

yes kuro his ftilt outranges our dtilt with enough aura, pardon me for not mentioning that. at no aura they may have the same range but im just not sure how it all works.

on the subject of our edgeguarding, our ftilt kinda wrecks shop while edgeguarding, it has high knockback and massively disjointed range pass the tip. also while our fair is slower than marths, it has more knockback, more priority, and equal range. however since our dtilt only hits you up (or down if you let us spike you lol) instead of out, that is why marth edgeguards you better than we do. we get more reward with our ftilt but it is slow so it is really a matter of risk reward.

oh and kuro, the reason his aerial approach at YI is buffed on us is because the curves of the stage allow him to land sooner out of aerial strings and start a juggle game. aside from that yes we have good cqc there, im just saying that it is still over all better for lucario since our ledge options become more limited.

oh and lucarios, don't forget we can make it hard to for you to juggle us by gliding out of reach, b reversal and wavebounce with arrows/mirror shield, and what we call wing landing (use our jumps to get away, then shoot down to the stage using our WOI and we can cancel it on the ground with dair like a platform cancel). however you guys still juggle us really well, im just throwing out some things that help us with this.

this discussion is awesomely active now, hey lucario's how do you guys perform on halberd, RC, and brinstar? these are generally good CPs for pit, and also where do you guys think you would CP us too (understand we will probably ban YI but list it anyways)

EDIT:

thx for clearing up that aura doesn't affect range, i was getting confused on that point.

and we know that marth is a better edguarder against you, we are just explaining our options

also, your dair only beats our uair from the center, but not the sides.
 

Kuro~

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Are you suggesting aura alters range?

Range is constant. Aura changes shield stun, hitstun, damage and knockback.



Lucario can fair out arrows if need be as well, not only that but his Dair out-ranges and beats out Pit's Uair, Fair on fair depends how Pit uses it and spaces same with Lucario.

Still your forgetting Lucario usually doesn't end up low, even in this MU Pit can't force the footstool. Your using your UpB to chase as he tries to air-dodge, which again can work if he is going low, but due to his air speed and floaty nature that opportunity is not going to happen as often as your suggesting.

I don't think Pit can force Lucario into really bad situations on the ledge. B-reversal is a mix-up just like it is for everyone who can do it, if you see it coming you can punish anyone in the cast trying it. The fact he can is a plus for landing, in additions with the range of his aerials, some like his dair being frame 4, Pit can't really force hard landing as well on Lucario.

Marth is above Pit by a good margin I don't think it is close when Marth can limit Lucario's options a lot better coming back, actually I think there are a few other characters like G&W who can force the edge guard situations a lot better.
No i'm not assuming he's low. Im saying we have a legit response to keep the situation going if he airdodges. Also, lucario's dair doesnt beat a SPACED uair from the left or right depending on which way pit is facing. Also the difference between lucario b-reversing and say...snake? Lucario has landing lag. Snake doesnt. We can punish if we bait. Our usmash has RIDICULOUS vertical range as well. I'm not saying forcing im saying he IS coming down and we CAN punish HOW he comes down pretty easily. and again, if you fair the arrow your just letting yourself get lower and letting us close in. Ik your floatiness is gonna help. I just think your underestimating pit's ability to RESET the situation. Not saying a gimp is gonna come (even though it's plausible depending on reads etc) as even in high level play unless it's mk i haven't seen lots of lucarios get gimped besides mk.
 

Kuro~

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Oh and i do appreciate you coming in here. This needed some active discussion. I'd appreciate if you talked about stages for a sec b4 we continue this discussion.

@Maha i agree he can do well under us. That's when i have the most trouble vs lucario as pit tbh. Also @ YI thing ohhh i see that's what you were referring to. ya i could see that as a pretty nice help.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I don't think Lucario juggles Pit that well even with Pit's air speed, his glide and recovery is enough to keep him safer than most characters, though it can happen sometimes if Pit loses his UpB. Under is still good for against Pit if he is in the air but juggling effectively might not work too easy on Pit.

Let me clear this up again. Aura affect only five things shield stun, hitstun, damage knockback, and how big his Aura Sphere is. If Lucario's Ftilt is betting out Pit's Dtilt, it's beating it out all the time from 0% to 187%. Range never changes with aura.

Dair beats out Pit's Uair from below, unless Pit moves in from the sides Lucario's dair beats it out. Lucario B revering can also Air dodge immediately instead of waiting for the grenade to pull, and with charging Aura Sphere and landing while doing it he doesn't have much landing land compared to just landing similar to Snake, it's why Lucario can land on Snake's mines and PS them like Snake can out of an Aura Sphere charge.

Fairing an arrow is not a big deal because the move has almost no cooldown, it's why fair is used so much and actually combo's into his other aerials. Also if he has his jump he could do it while rising, even then he's not losing much, his floaty nature let's him come back fine. I don't think him airdodging a fair is that bad for him unless he was under stage level, which considering his physics is very unlikely unless he goes down there. It can happen and Pit can take advantage of this very well, the thing is Lucario ends up high off stage more often than not and can stay high due to his floaty nature, this is why footstooling him is less likely to work.

~

Halberd is fine unless the character we are against is Fox, Snake or someone with a good vertical kill move, scrogging isn't a big deal if your careful of his arrows and space Dair if he tries Uair from below the platform when it is moving around.

Brinstar is ok, the limited space kind of sucks but the ability to make his already lingering hit-boxes last longer is a very good pro. He can move around fine it's just the smaller space that is a tad bothersome.

Cruise is bad, he should ban it since he gains little and Pit gains a lot more here. On the Ship and the part after the pendulum it's fine but elsewhere the stage is not kind to Lucario in this MU or rather most MUs.

Also Maharba, it's mostly just me and Myth actually talking I hope others come though.
 

Kuro~

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I don't think Lucario juggles Pit that well even with Pit's air speed, his glide and recovery is enough to keep him safer than most characters, though it can happen sometimes if Pit loses his UpB. Under is still good for against Pit if he is in the air but juggling effectively might not work too easy on Pit.

Let me clear this up again. Aura affect only five things shield stun, hitstun, damage knockback, and how big his Aura Sphere is. If Lucario's Ftilt is betting out Pit's Dtilt, it's beating it out all the time from 0% to 187%. Range never changes with aura.

Dair beats out Pit's Uair from below, unless Pit moves in from the sides Lucario's dair beats it out. Lucario B revering can also Air dodge immediately instead of waiting for the grenade to pull, and with charging Aura Sphere and landing while doing it he doesn't have much landing land compared to just landing similar to Snake, it's why Lucario can land on Snake's mines and PS them like Snake can out of an Aura Sphere charge.

Fairing an arrow is not a big deal because the move has almost no cooldown, it's why fair is used so much and actually combo's into his other aerials. Also if he has his jump he could do it while rising, even then he's not losing much, his floaty nature let's him come back fine. I don't think him airdodging a fair is that bad for him unless he was under stage level, which considering his physics is very unlikely unless he goes down there. It can happen and Pit can take advantage of this very well, the thing is Lucario ends up high off stage more often than not and can stay high due to his floaty nature, this is why footstooling him is less likely to work.

~

Halberd is fine unless the character we are against is Fox, Snake or someone with a good vertical kill move, scrogging isn't a big deal if your careful of his arrows and space Dair if he tries Uair from below the platform when it is moving around.

Brinstar is ok, the limited space kind of sucks but the ability to make his already lingering hit-boxes last longer is a very good pro. He can move around fine it's just the smaller space that is a tad bothersome.

Cruise is bad, he should ban it since he gains little and Pit gains a lot more here. On the Ship and the part after the pendulum it's fine but elsewhere the stage is not kind to Lucario in this MU or rather most MUs.

Also Maharba, it's mostly just me and Myth actually talking I hope others come though.
Ok i agree. I see where your coming from with the high thing. Kinda like snake and wario in some ways. Also My point was for the juggling thing is it's super easy for pit to juggle lucario. Everytime its like a free 30+% if not more and can set up easy reads for the kill. Also, lucarios dair beats pit's uair if the pit is just "using it". But if he spaces to the left/right (which he has to do for several matchups like link, tink, peach, gaw) then it DOES beat dair. Ok ik my point was it's an option. No other character has something unique like that. ANd also like maha said we can wind lock you after a foot stool. Im gonna test that lucario ftilt shiz im super curious about that now.

Edit: I think brinstar would be pretty amazing for pit vs lucario cuz we can take our sweet time there very easily, bair kills super early, and the lava leads to easy combos because of the wind lock trait pit has. And easy bairs. And dair camping/circle camping ***** here. Also our retreating fair beats your advancing fair. Unless his fair starts first.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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well we still appreciate your guys imput even if it is just you 2. also i don't think you're taking into account that at a certain amount of charge our arrow goes through your fair. however it does beat out spammed uncharged arrows like you said.

and since you do good at 2/3 listed CPs, where would you say we can CP after you ban RC? first stages to come to my mind are Lylat, delphino, and frigate but idk how lucario does on any of these.
 

Kuro~

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Read my above edit~

As for the others you listed, i don't think delphino would help much here. Shocking is too precise for this mu. It wouldn't make it tons easier for us. I think lylat could be very beneficial. I'm beginning to love lylat more and more with pit. Frigate is an amazing stage for lucario. But we'd do better here than yoshis imo.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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lucario's i just realized something about when we were talking about how there is a time when our dtilt may outrange your ftilt.

at stages with slants, most notably YI, when we do our dtilt it changes the angle of the hitbox. because of this, our slanted dtilt's range becomes physically longer and the areas that it can hit are brodened by a very noticable degree. i think that is where the confusion came from on the range switching between our dtilt and your ftilt. it's not yours that changes, it's ours. lol sorry i didn't think about that till just now
 
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