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Ministry- guide to tech chasing spacies.

Ministry

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
616
Location
Europe
Critique and advice are welcome. This is how I tech chase and my thoughts on tech chasing. There is no correct way to play sheik, but I think this is optimal.

Disclaimer: This is for reactionary grab based tech chases. Doing different options besides grabs/guessing, increases chance of escape exponentially against a spacie that knows what they are doing. Both spacies can be tech chased on reaction. Due to Falco's character properties; he has an easier time escaping tech chases naturally. I tried not to get into too much frame data, so yes there are some things I left out such as the properties of sheiks jab among other things.

Non-tech

The 4 different stages of resets are. 1. None 2. Forced wakeup 3.Forced wakeup with options 4.Popup (when jab reset is not the best option)

The Difference between Fox and Falco:

Both Fox and Falco have the same fall speed but not the same fall speed acceleration. Fox has a faster fall speed acceleration then Falco and will hit the ground before Falco. The Faster spacies hit the ground after a jab the longer it will take to receive a getup/popup animation. (The higher the % the worse the jab reset becomes.)

The worst thing that can happen when you jab reset is when they SDI the jab. This can happen at 0% but it is easier for Falco to do it then fox by around 10%. You don’t have to be too worried about this since most people don’t do it, however it is becoming more popular and it sucks when it happens. Your options include: Double jab, jab-ftilt or dsmash. You can always reset with uptilt/dtilt to make it harder for them to SDI.

Forced wakeup is when sheik’s jab reset happens and the only thing that can happen (unless they SDI) is to stand up. The forced wakeup % range is different for Fox and Falco. Fox’s Forced wakeup is around 0-42% while Falco’s is 0-32%. After their respective %’s they get options.

Options out of jab reset are determined on the percent that sheik jabs at and the input they are holding. If they are holding left/right they will tech roll correspondingly. If they are holding A they will get up attack, and if they are holding up they will stand up. Fox gets options after 42% and Falco gets options after 32%. Both tech rolls and stand up you can re grab. The getup attack you will have to time a Dair, dash dance grab, shield grab or upsmash OOS.

Pop ups are when they pop up from the jab into a standing animation and have little lag. It’s similar to when fox shines you in the air and you’re lag is reduced when you hit the ground. Discluding SDI, Fox pops up after a jab after around 72% while Falco pops up after around 42%. Falco’s broken.

Tech In Place

Generally this is the hardest tech to cover since it is the fastest and gives you the least amount of time to react to. Generally this is the first tech you should be ready to cover so have your finger on Z. You CAN’T react to tech in place with upsmash, you don’t have enough time and you will be guessing. Upsmash is bad at low %’s because it can be crouch cancelled/ they will get out of it before your animation ends and you will have a hard time following.

You can down smash tech in place, but it will most likely end your tech chase. One exception to this is when they are near an edge and they will be hit off. If you downthrow near an edge they can edge cancel off the stage and grab the edge/ DI off stage and double jump sweet spot the edge before you can react. In most cases grab is the best option.

Tech Roll

The Difference between Fox and Falco:

Again Falco has the advantage on this one. Both Fox and Falco’s tech roll are the same amount of frames, start-up speed and invincibility. They are not the same distance however. Falco has a longer roll, giving you less time to react and taking up more of the stage. This means he covers more distance and will be in tech chases for a shorter length. Fox is 12.6ft and Falco is 14.4ft.

The tech roll is the slower tech and will give you more time to react. The only disadvantage to this is it will limit your tech chase because they will eventually reach the edge (Falco even faster). The basic way to cover this is to boost grab (dash attack cancelled with Z).

Dash attack

Dash attack is the other option, but things get tricky here. As a general rule you want to use this above 40%. It can be CC’ed by Fox until around 32% and Falco until around 72% depending on if it’s a true CC or not. If the dash attack launches them at mid % and they Di properly they will hit the ground before you get out of your animation and you won’t be able to dash attack again. In this situation you will want to run up and cancel your animation with duck in front of them, then start a new tech chase from there.

If it knocks them over you will end up right next to them and behind them. From there you have a couple options. You have to pick you’re option fast because you will have a tiny delay from the dash attack animation or you will most likely get hit by a getup attack. You can either upsmash, shield/turn around and shield or jab reset. If they tech roll away you have to be ready for that also.

Pseudo down throws are situations that happen that should be treated like a down throw. Examples are, when you ftilt at mid % and when you dash attack at mid % and they miss the tech. You will have to walk up to them so if they tech roll away you can cover with boost grab and if they tech in place you can grab. The majority of people will panic and getup attack, so you should be ready to duck and CC or shield. This is relative to how much time you have/how far you get up to them before they can choose an option, so it will vary.

Directional Influence

One problem most people have and post about on the sheik forums is that they get shined after the spacie techs in place. This happens for 2 reasons. You are flat out to slow (or to fast), or they are too far from you and when you walk and grab the shine hits your grab hit box. This can be avoided.

Because sheiks down throw can be Di’ed, you need to follow the Di before your tech chase can begin. There are 3 different Di inputs they can do. Firstly they can Di away; you cover this by walking towards the opponent then proceeding. Next they can Di behind, and all you have to do is turn around then proceed. Lastly and hardest to cover is slight Di. When this happen it is almost ambiguous on which way they go. Pay attention to their animation when they do this and you should be able to figure out which way they Di’ed.


Method

There are a couple different methods to how you react. Find what works for you. Kirbykaze memorizes the animations then reacts to whatever animation he sees. Crystalnite watches the screen above the characters and follows its direction. If it moves a certain way that’s which way they tech rolled, If the screen shakes that’s a non-tech and if the screen does nothing he regrabs the tech in place. I personally zone out and only watch Fox/Falco, if they move I start running, if I see him bounce I jab and I’m ready for the tech in place since I assume/cover that first.
Sorry if this was too long. GL HF:).
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
There were a ton of grammatical and spelling mistakes. ;V
 

WHA?

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
544
Location
818
lol that crystalnite method wont work in doubles huh??
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
If you go with the method of assuming tech in place, how do you handle a missed tech? I haven't really played around with it alot, but right now I kinda fear that option the most, as I will be too afraid to go close to a guy who missed a tech to be able to as easily just assume a standup because of the getup attack. Am I overestimating how quickly people can do something out of a missed tech and should it reliably be possible to react to when you're assuming the opponent will tech in place? :)
My reaction obviously isn't top tier since I do have to assume/guess on tech in place to ever really follow up on that before the opponent can dodge/shine.
 

gm jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
1,850
Location
Reading/Cambridge, UK
KK, what parts of the animations do you look out for? I tried learning them at quarter speed, but at full speed I can't find anything obvious to react to reliably.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Boost grab with A --> Z

It's better than using a shoulder trigger.

Crystal's way involves watching the way the screen moves (as it zooms out to accomodate changes in position) to discern tech/non-tech/tech rolls).
 

Shadow Huan

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
2,224
Location
Springfield, MA
interesting read...

I tech chase on reaction, and I honestly believe that I don't think about it when I'm in the "zone" lol, so this is helpful advice

Both Fox and Falco have the same fall speed but not the same fall speed acceleration. Fox has a faster fall speed acceleration then Falco and will hit the ground before Falco.
this is slightly incorrect tho. Falco has a faster falling speed than Fox does, I know this from playing mewtwo; mewtwo's uthrow kills are based on fall speed and not weight, and falco's harder to uthrow kill than fox is. (The difference is measured in percents; Fox dies on FD from an uthrow @165% and Falco Dies @ 172%). But fox does have a faster acceleration speed so it can be hard to tell *shrugs*
 

Spife

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
3,016
Location
Neriak
cause I use to main link and pressing the z button was usually a bad idea. I'm still trying to learn how to grab ^^

also it does, rayenx showed me it and I'm forever in debt.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
nurgle

whatever works for you :p

i just think it's better 'cuz less motion and more inputs produce the boost grab if you mess up

but if you're more consistent with the other then just stick with it
 

FrozenLight

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
10
The opponent can DI the downthrow in and out. If he DIs fully in, I can just turnaround to stand well for the tech in Place, what is the best option for him DIng away, to stand at the right spot, when he falls? Wavedash or dashing forward (foxtrot)?
 
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dude it's raining

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
236
The opponent can DI the downthrow in and out. If he DIs fully in, I can just turnaround to stand well for the tech in Place, what is the best option for him DIng away, to stand at the right spot, when he falls? Wavedash or dashing forward (foxtrot)?
I usually wavedash to accomodate DI on the Dthrow and just reposition accordingly.
 

Jmook11

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
75
Location
Binghamton, New York
One thing he left out which I think could be helpful: be sure to predict the Tech by Wavedashing after the Down-Throw! This has helped my tech-chase game improve drastically and it covers almost all of the options
 

Krackatoa

Ottawa eSports Illuminati
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
11
@ KirbyKaze KirbyKaze

anyone know if you preempt miss tech with a jab, do you still have time to grab tech in place?

jab is active frames 2 and 3.
I looked into this. Yes you do. Neutral Tech is 26 frames.

Done correctly, you have like 11 frames leeway. (Though even the most robot-iest of players won't likely react to neutral tech until later than this). The 2nd jab buffer window might give you slight issues, though.
 
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