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Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #6 - Meta Knight

Sails

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA

Matchup Ratio: -1​

Important Posts:​

Robin1613 said:
Good ol Metaknight.

At this point you should know how to fight against this guy.

but in case you don't here are some of the basics:
-banana beats tornado, and all his other attacks due to its transcendent priority.
-fair isn't useless and actually very helpful so don't be shy in using it
-peanut spamming to put some pressure on metaknight is advised
-knowing how to form a banana wall is really helpful but not mandatory in beating him.
-a planking mk can be dealt with using bananas and peanuts
-more to be added.
Click to expand...
Sails said:
This matchup is a lot like the Falco matchup, where you have to put a lot of work in to learning all of your opponents options and how to punish each and every single one. There's no definitive way to win this matchup. Practicing with a highly skilled Metaknight will help out tremendously, but the issue is that while you're learning the matchup, so is the Metaknight. Once a Metaknight player understands all of the unpunishable gimps, the safest decisions, and proper banana control, this matchup gets put right in to his favor. In order to turn this around, the Metaknight needs to make mistakes, and the Diddy Kong needs to know how to bait them.

This matchup will always seem awkward to rate for a ratio because both characters have many options for punishing each other. Metaknight gets gimping power that requires you to space and recover awkwardly. Diddy Kong gets defensive options with high reward for landing banana hits. According to the current tournament metagame, this matchup would probably be even. However, I feel that if the Metaknight utilizes his tools correctly and plays smart, it's in Metaknights favor.

By the way, new Diddy Kongs, if your Metaknight opponent is camping, you should win. If you have any way to instill fear in to who you are playing, and can force them in to camping (Or they're campy to begin with), the matchup gets pushed in to even/your territory depending on the Metaknights knowledge. Metaknight has a tough time getting past a proper camp setup. Get your bananas, wait under a platform with them, punish the approach.
Click to expand...
Count said:
Alright..since nobody has done it yet I'm going to try to a big write up..feel free to correct me ^_^

Different people play their matchups differently, but I usually just play about as gay as possible against Meta Knight. ADHD setup, wait, punish the approach, as sails noted. However, make sure you use MIXUPS while you're camping. One read from Meta Knight where he or she can get in either means we take a ton of damage or get gimped. If Meta Knight does get in, once you get him or her out don't have the audacity to keep going after Meta Knight. Head to the other side of the stage, and set up camp. We don't have the tools to hang with Meta Knight without bananas.

After Meta Knight is tripped, I like to for the most part use grabs and pummels and throws in this matchup to keep moves fresh As far as hitting Meta Knight while he is downair camping or something, you just kind of have to think and read their patterns to run underneath and hit them. It is good to keep Meta Knight guessing too; watch any Gnes vid where Gnes is scooting around underneath Meta Knight keeping the bat off balance. The whole key to the matchup when we have Meta Knight out is keeping him out by being unpredictable.

The most difficult part of the matchup is recovering, and sadly if Meta Knight guesses right at all if he is good we will get gimped. We have a few options while recovering, some safer than others. Overall I think our safest mode of recovery is by recovering high with Diddy's side b kick. Its high amount of priority will usually override Meta Knight. Next, charging our barrels from far away is probably our next safest option. Other than that, save your midair jump to hit Meta Knight on your way back, and mix up your side b's, use b reversals, and overall just try not to be predictable with where you're recovering from.

When recovering from above, its kind of the same game..be predictable. Remember that you can use your side b in either direction at any time, we have a godlike airdodge, we have a b reversal, and we can attack with fair or even dair on the way down. Be careful with using too much fair; its end lag will get you punished. Meta Knight's will typically either come up at us with upair or up b, wait for the airdodge to nair, or try to catch us as we land with nado. Think about what they are going to do and how you can get past it or beat it.

Getting off of the ledge is tough, but no tougher than a lot of other matchups..just remember all of your options and try to mix them up. ADHD and Gnes are both great at getting off of the ledge so watch their videos.



As with any matchup, all of them are played differently to each individual player's taste. I tried to lay out some basic strategies in this post. If you have questions about specific situations I can probably help, but its difficult to put all of those into one post. Hope this helps..like anything just PLAYING Meta Knight a bunch can help you learn.
Click to expand...


Stages to Utilize Against Meta Knight:

Neutrals - Final Destination, Smashville
Counterpicks - Final Destination, Smashville
Bans - Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise

For more intricate help with this Matchup, please be sure to read the thread, and feel free to ask any questions not answered in it.​

[Collapse="Original Post for Posterity"]
"Without looking down
Gliding around
Like a bumbling dragon I fly
Scraping my face on the sky"
Ruler of Everything - Tally Hall
​


It is important that you read this! Every first post by a user in a Matchup Thread is encouraged to have at least a couple of sentences of information, alongside a ratio. Posts may not be considered for ratio and summary solidifying without these from the poster at some point in the thread, and keeping them towards the beginning helps keep discussion tidy. You have two weeks to share information that you feel is helpful in the Matchup, as well as debate with others. Compelling arguments are a must people, I expect any joking and trolls to be at a minimum.

Ideas for discussion...

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Diddy's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-​


Note: This Matchup has been discussed in the past. If you wish to pull content from previous discussions that are still relevant in the current Metagame, then feel free to do so. This includes posts that are both yours and not yours.[/collapse]
 
Vega4

Vega4

Smash Ace
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
552
This match is not that bad for Diddy. I would say that Diddy even has advantage if he keep his *** on the floor and don't get gimped... But... it's MK... so you can get gimped any time, that makes this match even.

I said that it would be a great idea to choose some vids that shows a graphic way of how to play the match-ups... well, here is my personal suggestion for the MK match up:

KTAR 4: Nairo (Metaknight) vs Gnes (Diddy) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWKYpkxzBtA

It's great the way that Gnes played this match, specially how he kept control all the time, and punished every single breath of that MK...
 
Boofy!

Boofy!

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
2,241
Location
Parsippany, North NJ
Ok time for basic stuff every diddy should know

Tilt your shield up against nado, our shield is awesome.. like really awesome.
Learn to invincidrop, it helps
We have the face hump GR>footstool if the MK is stupid enough to let it happen
Save your second jump while recovering or be at his mercy, RECOVER SMART
MK has a pretty good banana game
Fair>Fair>Fair

Ban Brinstar or RC, i personally hate Brinstar more

idk fawk this MU
 
Robin1613

Robin1613

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 1, 2008
Messages
277
Location
Queens, New York
NNID
Robin1613
Good ol Metaknight.

At this point you should know how to fight against this guy.

but in case you don't here are some of the basics:
-banana beats tornado, and all his other attacks due to its transcendent priority.
-fair isn't useless and actually very helpful so don't be shy in using it
-peanut spamming to put some pressure on metaknight is advised
-knowing how to form a banana wall is really helpful but not mandatory in beating him.
-a planking mk can be dealt with using bananas and peanuts
-more to be added.
 
Gnes

Gnes

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,666
Location
In Another Dimension...
I think its a decent advantage for mk(60-40 if u need a number). And I'll try my best to write an analysis for this matchup soon.
 
L

Linkvader

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
298
Location
BAY AREA
I always thought that the MU was around even, like 55-45 MK's favor. Nanners are good to keep near you and in control of.
 
Kantrip

Kantrip

Kantplay
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
10,188
Location
B.C. Canada
It's -1 for Diddy imo. If the metaknight can handle naners as well as you, there's not too much you can do.
MK can **** us in the air where his fast aerials beat us and we can't shield his nado. We'll want to be on the ground. I like to peanut camp and wall it out to try to lure a ground approach because that's what we really want. I don't know too much else, it's all old stuff really. I ban brinstar, it's worse than RC for me.
 
Count

Count

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
2,454
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
I can do a writeup tonight or tomorrow then other people can build on it since nothing has been done yet and I'm good at the mk matchup compared to the other top tiers.
 
Kuro~

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
6,040
Location
Apopka Florida
If it's even why hasn't anti (who's like da master of it) ever really lost to one in tourney? I think this mu is still in mk's favor. /disappearsnow
 
N

nuker119

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
145
Location
long island, NY
i feel in this match up.. you dont want to be on the ledge for long.. your just playing right into their game.. unless they are on the stage. if they nado over you when on the ledge.. you can time a ledge attack and it goes through the nado. banana control is extremely essential in this mu. another thing i like to do in this is to be as patient as i could be since mk has to come to you to attack. and as with every match up.. you gotta recover smart.. and wave bounce to land safely
 
VonDarkmoon

VonDarkmoon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
92
Location
Santa Rosa, CA
The main problem i have in this situation is being on the counter-pick game 3, after winning on SV and they ban FD. Where is the best stage to go at that point?
 
Sails

Sails

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
561
Location
Southwick, MA
This matchup is a lot like the Falco matchup, where you have to put a lot of work in to learning all of your opponents options and how to punish each and every single one. There's no definitive way to win this matchup. Practicing with a highly skilled Metaknight will help out tremendously, but the issue is that while you're learning the matchup, so is the Metaknight. Once a Metaknight player understands all of the unpunishable gimps, the safest decisions, and proper banana control, this matchup gets put right in to his favor. In order to turn this around, the Metaknight needs to make mistakes, and the Diddy Kong needs to know how to bait them.

This matchup will always seem awkward to rate for a ratio because both characters have many options for punishing each other. Metaknight gets gimping power that requires you to space and recover awkwardly. Diddy Kong gets defensive options with high reward for landing banana hits. According to the current tournament metagame, this matchup would probably be even. However, I feel that if the Metaknight utilizes his tools correctly and plays smart, it's in Metaknights favor.

I'll say it's -1.

By the way, new Diddy Kongs, if your Metaknight opponent is camping, you should win. If you have any way to instill fear in to who you are playing, and can force them in to camping (Or they're campy to begin with), the matchup gets pushed in to even/your territory depending on the Metaknights knowledge. Metaknight has a tough time getting past a proper camp setup. Get your bananas, wait under a platform with them, punish the approach.
 
Budget Player Cadet_

Budget Player Cadet_

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
8,908
Location
Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
Things I can mention from my knowledge of the matchup...

-You go offstage you die.
-You go airborne, you get nado'd. Three or four times.
-You lose control of your bananas, you get nado'd. See point two.
-Seriously you have to play this one super safe.

Okay, I'm probably exaggerating these things, but an aggressive MK can really, really put the hurt on diddy. Utilt is a surprisingly useful kill move to just throw out above 150% (3 frames? FML), we can't guarantee a punish on block out of dash attack, and always camp with naners. Seriously, if you try to play without them, MK will **** you up.

Going on how Anti like, never loses to diddy, I'm going to call this one a safe -1, maybe even -2. Once MKs start learning their naner control, this matchup becomes way easier.
 
Player-1

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,186
Location
Rainbow Cruise
I don't see the MU being any worse than -1, but I agree with it being -1, most of what you said is true, just not guaranteed. You shouldn't be getting nadod 3 or 4 times in a row, 2 at max if you're playing smart. Utilt isn't that good against diddy as he shouldn't be in the air above you anyway, and any time he is (pretty much missing a side-b or something like that) you can hit with dsmash/up-b. IDK what you mean by guarantee a punish on block. According to frame data you should be able to, but IDK if you're considering human error in "guaranteed" as that can always take into effect.
 
Count

Count

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
2,454
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
Alright..since nobody has done it yet I'm going to try to a big write up..feel free to correct me ^_^

Different people play their matchups differently, but I usually just play about as gay as possible against Meta Knight. ADHD setup, wait, punish the approach, as sails noted. However, make sure you use MIXUPS while you're camping. One read from Meta Knight where he or she can get in either means we take a ton of damage or get gimped. If Meta Knight does get in, once you get him or her out don't have the audacity to keep going after Meta Knight. Head to the other side of the stage, and set up camp. We don't have the tools to hang with Meta Knight without bananas.

After Meta Knight is tripped, I like to for the most part use grabs and pummels and throws in this matchup to keep moves fresh As far as hitting Meta Knight while he is downair camping or something, you just kind of have to think and read their patterns to run underneath and hit them. It is good to keep Meta Knight guessing too; watch any Gnes vid where Gnes is scooting around underneath Meta Knight keeping the bat off balance. The whole key to the matchup when we have Meta Knight out is keeping him out by being unpredictable.

The most difficult part of the matchup is recovering, and sadly if Meta Knight guesses right at all if he is good we will get gimped. We have a few options while recovering, some safer than others. Overall I think our safest mode of recovery is by recovering high with Diddy's side b kick. Its high amount of priority will usually override Meta Knight. Next, charging our barrels from far away is probably our next safest option. Other than that, save your midair jump to hit Meta Knight on your way back, and mix up your side b's, use b reversals, and overall just try not to be predictable with where you're recovering from.

When recovering from above, its kind of the same game..be predictable. Remember that you can use your side b in either direction at any time, we have a godlike airdodge, we have a b reversal, and we can attack with fair or even dair on the way down. Be careful with using too much fair; its end lag will get you punished. Meta Knight's will typically either come up at us with upair or up b, wait for the airdodge to nair, or try to catch us as we land with nado. Think about what they are going to do and how you can get past it or beat it.

Getting off of the ledge is tough, but no tougher than a lot of other matchups..just remember all of your options and try to mix them up. ADHD and Gnes are both great at getting off of the ledge so watch their videos.



As with any matchup, all of them are played differently to each individual player's taste. I tried to lay out some basic strategies in this post. If you have questions about specific situations I can probably help, but its difficult to put all of those into one post. Hope this helps..like anything just PLAYING Meta Knight a bunch can help you learn.
 
ChocoNaner

ChocoNaner

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
469
Location
SoCal :I
It's 40-60 Diddy's favor. :I

MK can't land if Diddy is right below him with bananas near the ledges and quickly surprises MK with Fair or Uair, since, if timed correctly, will **** a Dair planking MK. If he uses the nado, a well-spaced Ftilt will **** it. It's almost as if MK is helpless against Diddy. I:

Off-stage is where MK has any chance of being able to fight Diddy on equal ground (no pun intended), and even then if say MK tries to SL to gimp Diddy, the monkey hump has a good chance of taking priority and latching on, in which case if Diddy latches onto MK and is near the bottom blast zone, he's screwed because Diddy is practically assured the footstool out of the release.

Then there's the banana issue. Using bananas against Diddy helps right? Nope. Diddy can barrel cancel and those things do 15% at the very least, accounting for around a 7th of MK's stock. It's not possible to fight Diddy in the air, and you can't even fight him on the ground.

When Diddy has no bananas out, it's MK's best chance to fight Diddy, but it's not that easy-Diddy's monkey flip can **** MK if he tries to hide in his shield by monkey hump and if he spotdodges, no problem, he can just press a button and change it into a ridiculously broken attack that can be cancelled upon landing (hell, he can even jump before he needs to land if timed right).

Don't forget MK can barely recover. Bananas break everything-drill, nado, glide, you name it-and it gives Diddy an opening to do whatever he wants, including a spike. If by some miracle MK is able to get through the wall of bananas, he still has to go through a barrage of peanuts, making it virtually impossible to get safely to the ledge without taking at least a fraction of the % needed to get MK to kill percentage. And now that he's stuck on the ledge, he has to worry about getting back on, which means he again has to struggle to get through the fortress of bananas and peanuts behind which Diddy is safely situated. Unless you're playing on a stage such as SV or another stage that allows MK to get to a platform so he won't have to take so much damage, it's a safe bet that MK is going to lose a stock or take a large amount of percentage trying to get off the ledge.

Ban this broken char. >:I
 
Staco

Staco

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
2,173
Location
Germany
One thing I see a lot of Diddys doing wrong is pulling out bananas in a situation, where they are easily punishable.
Dont expect the MK just to stay on place and wait for you to pull out the naners, he will just run in, punish you and get the banana, lol.
Like, I think in one set ADHD vs. some MK he had a banana in front, one in his hand.
The MK didnt approach, the banane disappeared, ADHD pulled the 2nd out, getting punished for it. Why would you do that?

Side B can be easily punished from a player, whos good at it, don´t use it too obvious.
 
Zinoto

Zinoto

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
1,565
Location
Michigan
This is definitely one of the most annoying match-up's in the game and definitely in MK's favor (55-45).

The biggest problem I see that a lot of Diddy players has is with banana control and being juggled. To start, bananas are an absolute must in the match up.

0 bananas = Tornado Spam
1 Banana = Aerial Camp to bait misuse of banana
2 Bananas = Optimal situation for Diddy. Even Match-up begins here.

If you have no bananas, prepare for a ton of nados. Like stated before, Diddy's shield is broken so as long as you move it around to follow the tornado (primarily upwards) then you don't have to worry about being shield poked. Also, try to keep your banana game from being linear and predictable. Don't always wait for MK to hit the ground to punish him, bait attacks and glide toss bananas at the ground so you can force better opportunities. Second, don't be afraid to throw the bananas into the air or Z - drop them, just don't throw them carelessly. Bananas control the flow of the match, so if you lose them, you lose the flow as well. Lastly, make sure to reach that optimal situation of 2 bananas as much as possible. Keep one banana in hand and the other in front of you, then camp the hell out of him. This is likely gonna make MK shuttle loop to break your camp site or spam aerials. Bait them and punish.

Juggling Diddy in the air is the main way MK is going to rack up damage on Diddy. The obvious counter to this is to stay on the ground as much as possible. Once Diddy is in the air (God forbid you be above him too) its open season. When you are in the air DO NOT THROW OUT RANDOM AIR DODGES. MK is waiting for this and will likely tack on an extra 20-30% easily. Stay in the center of the stage as much as possible and when you do happen to be in the air, confuse the hell outta him. Use B-reversals, monkey flips, and bananas you may happen to have to get back down. I like to B-reverse my peanut gun and cancel it to throw him off. If you're knocked off the stage, you're in some real trouble but you can recover if you're not predictable. Recovering high is usually a good option because it allows you some room to confuse MK more, however, normally MK wants to keep you low so that he can gimp your barrels. If you must recover low, do not recover directly under him. He will almost always invincinair you and will almost always be successful. If you;re gonna recover low, save your second jump and use rising aerials to eliminate his chances of gimping you hard. Also, using your jetpack from far away is a nice option too. The less predictable in this MU, the better.

Overall, this is one of my favorite MU's because it really tests to see who knows it better. Patience and reading ability will determine the outcome of this match-up. ^_^
 
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