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Falco Matchup #7: Bowser

-DR3W-

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Match-Up Thread #7
Bowser




In this thread, post any contribution you have regarding the Bowser matchup.

Keep these in mind when posting:
- What do we have against him?
- What to watch out for?
- Certain do's & don'ts
- Any additional information or data necessary.

Go.
 

Cassius.

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A pretty bad MU for obvious reasons but there are times where Bowser can shine for like 5 seconds..
Bowser has no projectile and therefore has no real means of dealing with your laser camping besides powershielding, and his crawl is heinous so we really only have powershielding. Seriously, if you get the lead, the ideal thing to do would be to just laser camp, and you wouldn't be wrong for doing it.

I don't know the exact %age at which Bowser breaks out of the CG but it's high, so Falcos can expect to get a cg from end to end/any point to the edge at low %s. Bowser could just eat lasers until a certain percent and then go on the move but it's not a really useful strategy and when the player catches on you're kinda ****ed.

Phantasm however is something we can manage, we have a lot of moves that can trade/deal with phantasm, like U/FTilt and UpB for examples. Bowser can also Aerial Klaw -> Grounded Klaw to cover both sides when predicting a phantasm, that's another way to cover it.

Move wise, I doubt there's anything Falco really has to fear from us except for grabs, because Falco can spotdodge through a grounded klaw. Hell, Falco can actually spotdodge through anything if timed right honestly...

uh, what else. Grab releases are something Falco should fear but if you're camping like you're supposed to, you shouldn't be worried.
if you need a list of things Bowser can do to Falco off of GRs there's a link of it in our sub-forum [http://flayl.tengun.net/images/releasetable.png] but off the top of my head the deadliest/most damaging things I can think of are the re-grabs/air releases that put Falco offstage. When Falco's offstage, his recovery options are pretty linear and in my opinion that's when Bowser will probably get the most damage. Bowsers will probably look to get Falco into the air/offstage as often as possible because it's easier to tack on damage by predicting Falco's recovery options/landing etc.

Fire probably isn't as useful as it used to be because people can SDI in/out of the fire and do whatever. It still puts on reasonable damage if used right, but I hate using fire anyway

Stage wise, expect Bowser to gear for anything but FD as the neutral. You'd probably want to ban BF against Bowser because the platforms are great for camping and they don't hinder Bowser's movement at all. It's like our jungle gym kinda. Overall if the Falco plays correctly it's really bad, I'm not one for ratios honestly but 40-60 seems right. 35-65 I guess if you guys want the edge.

As actual counterpicks, I'm probably the only one who would take Falco to Delfino...lol

and for do's, uh do go for the grab whenever you see Bowsers shield camping because chances are you'll probably get it. Don't get greedy obviously though. again, don't get greedy for the kill, and don't expect to kill Bowser until around 140+ or so, especially if your bair is stale and you haven't got the cg-spike kill. basically bowser will **** you if you get greedy, so I'd just prefer to play safe and just laser all day and walk up/grab when necessary.

a small note that Bowser CAN ground release pivot re-grab falco, but the timing is difficult as balls and i'd be blessed to see any Bowser pull it off more than once. see, on paper we have a lot of things but in practice it's not really useful, and if your timing isn't top notch then Bowser will probably have a harder time, whereas Falco can just laser all day and reset his location for 8 minutes/until he reaches kill % if necessary.

im forgetting a lot of things but whatever
 

DJ Arcatek

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_pCmywc87U

I played the matchup... not correctly. But it's a something to look at to see things Bowser can do. For example, he can Up B out of our jab, his Up Smash can kill us at like 102% (maybe less). Not to mention the fact he has (kindof) a CG on Falco. Just go to 3:15 in the vid to see what I mean. I'm not too familiar with the matchup, but it is most definitely in our favor. Once Bowser is at the edge, he can't do anything. Our lasers + side b kill any approach he has. His Fire COULD mess up our recovery if we try to go for the ledge too much, but it shouldn't be much of a problem.

I'd say 65-35, Falco's favor.
 

Seagull Joe

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I alt Bowser (For low tier tourneys) and Falco is annoying, but doable. Bowser has problems getting through lasers and needs to rely on punishing when Falco decides to approach or is in Bowser's limited range/vicinity. Iap rarely will lose to fire breath unless spaced perfectly. If Falco cg's then Bowser can't do much and will die. He can be cg'd about 8-9 times? I know larry made a thread, but can someone dig up how long Bowser can be cg'd?
 

Zigsta

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This is Bowser's second easiest high tier MU behind Marth.

I can't really go super in depth because of my arms right now, but I'll post more when I'm healed.

In my opinion, +2 Falco.

Also, Bowser's offstage nair is really good in this MU.

:phone:
 

Cassius.

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bowser can just SDI the dair right?

or is that the case where falco isn't cg'ing correctly
 

Cassius.

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thanks! I thought they were pretty good as well. I think that was Zen's first time playing Brawl again in a while since he quit for BlazBlue but he was still extremely good.

uh...If I think of anything to add MU wise I definitely will..I'll also direct KingKong to this when I see him on AIM or something. I've just been really busy

basically Falco can spotdodge the majority of Bowser's attacks and avoid them, but not all of Bowser's moves are terribly slow/leave him wide open for a period of time, like jab for example.

I think that, coupled with lasers makes this MU pretty difficult. Although I take back what I originally said about Falco simply being able to sit there and laser Bowser to death. Bowser CAN double jump/klaw hop airdodge or what have you and weave in and out of the lasers. And if Bowser comes into close proximity you should either BAir, roll out of the way or spotdodge, because shielding wouldn't be advisible [klaw...]. I think any aerial would go through klaw but BAir would be safer and it links into DAir at low percents as shown by the videos.

In the air Falco can also read Bowser's movements and punish easily, which is a bit difficult for us as well but FAir is pretty good for dealing with that. Bowser can also NAir offstage for a gimp off of Firebird and phantasm (it goes through both, but phantasm sometimes trades with nair so because of the semi spike it's not really recommended).
 

Linkvader

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I think it's 65-35 Falco's favor. He has laser, and the CG to spike that can kill if Falco can get most of the grabs. The camping game kills bowser, and it takes him forever to approach, when then you can phantasm to the other side if you aren't predictable. Bowser has a lot of slow attacks, and I think that Falco has an advantage in the air. I'm not too sure on Bowser's air game though. Don't get hit by the special grab that suicides you both. ;)
 

Cassius.

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the cg spike can't kill at max grabs with SDI etc.

you could just wait it out and eat a few lasers to minimize the amount of grabs falco can get but then that sets you up for a techchase off of the cg (dair)

bowser does have some slow attacks but he's not as slow as you think. the real issue is that with cqc falco can time his spotdodge and avoid most of bowser's moves save aerial klaw. i mean, bowser can just spam jab in cqc and beat out most of falco's stuff except for jab but whatever.

it's probably within the 35-65/40-60 range..
 

teluoborg

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Just be very wary of Side B and Up B since they are imo Bowser's most powerful tools.
Side B can be used in a thousand of different ways and Up B is an awesome punisher/OOS move.

Oh and Bowser's jab>down B breaks shields.

Other than that everything has been said I think.
 

Phiddlesticks

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dont try to fight falco in the air if hes not facing you, his back air beats pretty much everything you have. as bowser you only really beat it by shielding it or grab armouring it with a klaw

most falcos will try to dair if theyre above you and you jump up to attack them. a well spaced upair will trade or beat it out entirely, probably the best trade bowser can make

stagewise i ban fd and go either brinstar (norfair if its legal) or lylat
 

Cassius.

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teluo, upb isn't as good as you think it is, because if we use it to punish but don't get the complete punish, falco can either grab us at start up or phantasm through us at cooldown. we have to be pretty careful with it, but it's not anything bowser isn't used to.

the safest position for bowser most of the time imo before AND after cg percents is being reasonably close to the ledge because you can minimize the amount of grabs falco can get (pivot grabs nullify this though...) and if bowser gets a grab we have a long space to air release/ground release cg and handle falco accordingly. fortress becomes safe against falco if you're a bit closer to the ledge because you can retreat to it if you whiff the upb, and you can also avoid lasers.

that's just my opinion, and in different situations it actually sucks *** to be near the ledge obviously, so it doesn't work ALL the time.

norfair really? that's interesting...

i would **** with brinstar though, i can see that. i guess each bowser has his preference, like i'd take falco to delfino, and i think kk would take them to rc.

and i agree with what phiddle said, if falco isn't facing bowser, then there's no reason to fight him [him being falco], because bowser can only win the bair battle by either trading with ftilt or catching falco's lag with a klaw if the bair isn't autocancelled.

so basically for you falcos, your best bet is to face bowser from your back, and just whenever you jump just either b reverse or turn your lasers around. having your back to us as your default stance pretty much further ruins bowser's approach

otherwise falco doesn't have much to offer from his back, but dair is a problem. for bowsers i recommend if you are caught by dairs when grounded and at mid percents, instead of airdodging and walking into 100 other problems such as grab, jab or a kill move, just klaw, against falco it's probably your best option instead of ad'ing because if falco spotdodges the klaw you can just klaw again, and if he rolls behind you can just klaw again. this also applies to dthrow @ high percents. I actually recommend DI'ng up towards the falco instead of completely away because you have to deal with bdacus and **** like that, and then you can do what i just mentioned earlier (klaw instead of airdodging etc)

the only issue i see with that is that you have to DI up when your best bet is probably DI'ing away (Beware BDACUS!!) unless you're trying to avoid bdacus, and then when the falco catches on, he can buffer UAir/NAir or something.

when proofreading this it's kinda hard to follow if im referring to bowser or falco but im too lazy to fix all of it :l
 

Phiddlesticks

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i love norfair, gives bowser early upair kills and a better stage layout to avoid lasers/chaingrab (only exception is if the lava is fully up and bowser/falco are on the opposite top platforms)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDtC7aNgeOs

heres an example, its a year old though :( but i mean honestly it doesnt even really matter anymore because most regions have norfair banned nowadays anyways
 

Cassius.

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yeah true. i never had a chance to experience having norfair as an option because it's been banned whenever i went to tournaments. it's just interesting to hear about it.
 

Linkvader

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I can't decide if Norfair should be allowed in tournaments, but they are almost always not an option. It might help Bowser a little, until the lava comes.
 

Zigsta

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Never really practiced on Norfair much. I usually take Falco to Brinstar, BF, or Yoshi's.

:phone:
 

Linkvader

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Brinstar hurts Falco, his lasers aren't really good there. The lava can save both characters if they miss the ledge.
 

MARLX

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IMO i think the match up is 60-40. Why? Because we all know faclco can chain grab to spike, but the new meta game minute tells how to DI that. The bowsers quick attack cancel makes a diference. Harder to laser and falco can actualy be attacked by bowser. And also bowser can survive a long time and bowser does'nt have a killing problem. Also we can get grabed release constintly to jab (not a lot of knock back) so this can go on for a while.
 

Cassius.

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quick attack cancel...?

and bowser can do A LOT worse things to Falco than just gr-> jab.
 

Cassius.

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oh my god. i just can't wrap my head around how someone could say that.

...like, i know what he means but

...

how?
 

Choice

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i think bowser's qac is gonna be featured in the next metagame minute.

how come nair is good for bowser when falco is juggling him in the air?
 

Zigsta

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how come nair is good for bowser when falco is juggling him in the air?
Did someone say that?

I thought we were just talking about nair offstage to gimp Falco.

If not, nair isn't good when Bowser's juggled.

:phone:
 

Cassius.

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I said NAir is good because I was referring to the gimp

FAir is better if you're being juggled because it has more range, and it's a better option than airdodging because Falco is a REALLY good juggler.
 

Choice

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"In the air Falco can also read Bowser's movements and punish easily, which is a bit difficult for us as well but like Zigsta said, NAir is pretty good for dealing that."

this is what i was referencing. thanks for the clarification.
 

Cassius.

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oh **** i must have mistyped. my fault, i fixed it and put in FAir now.

thanks.
 

Zigsta

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Choice, my new goal is to nair you while being juggled this summer. :p

:phone:
 

Choice

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can't let you do tha...err, dang i dunno a falco quote that fits this. i'll buy you an ice cream sandwich or something if you do. i just don't see how it would work which is why i asked.
 

Choice

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just wait for the next metagame minute. it'll explain all philnye. bowser's qac is real and alive.
 

phi1ny3

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just wait for the next metagame minute. it'll explain all philnye. bowser's qac is real and alive.
I can see it now... Bowser QAC locking w/ that fat yet graceful tuchus bouncing on the helpless opponent, then ending w/ a violent thundering fsmash. Yes, Bowser will indeed live up to his glorious title of King of the Koopas.

Pure Disney magic.

:phone:
Coming soon to a theater near you
 

teluoborg

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Back on topic, I picked up Bowser against some Falcos today just to see and I can see Bowser having options in this matchup.
Lasers are a pain but Bowser can manage his way through them.
CG deals loads of damage but shouldn't be lethal because of how the spike can be SDI'd (thanks MM), it can deal between 50 and 80% depending on how well you tech chase.
Bowser's up B is a really good option against Falco's lack of disjoint and mobility, it also counters frame traps very well.

@Limit : I don't get you when you say that Bowser's up B can be punished if he doesn't punish fully Falco. As far as I've been (which is not very far ok), every time I traded a hit with up B I won.

Now 2 things I'd put in the "don't" list :
-Don't try your usual Uair follow up after launching Bowser upwards, he can frame trap you on reaction with his down B, which at this height will kill you at like 70%.
-Don't recover too predictably with your phantasm when Bowser is near the ledge : if you go for the sweetspot he can do a flame breath burst and edgehog you to death and if you go for the stage he can do a lot of nasty things to your phantasm (like up B, Usmash, Ftilt, Dtilt). But it's ok because on the other side you can edgeguard him like a boss.
 
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