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Match-up Discussion 16 - Fox

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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Fox
Advantage/Disadvantage: +1


(Insert "Can't let you do that Starfox" joke here)
Way too fast for Brawl.
We can limit his options, though.

We need the following information:​


-STAGES-
"Best" starters for Oli:
"Worst" starters for Oli:
"Best" counterpicks for Oli:
"Worst" counterpicks for Oli:

Notable "move beats move" situations:

Opponent's primary tools:
How we can deal with opponent's primary tools:

Anything else:
(This section includes gimmicks, minor notes, and anything else that isn't covered)

Don't restrict conversation to just these points.
These are just guidelines to help discussion.
Discuss!
 

Chuee

Smash Hero
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Best examples of the MU are prob. Yui vs Brood/Nietono and theres like 500 vids on youtube.
I can find them all later.
 

Conviction

Human Nature
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Haha I don't this MU so I'd like to learn it!

I do have vid from a while back against Oli -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6U6kcv8mmc
there are other vids vs. his oli somewhere on my page.

So to get much out of this I want to ask some questions if that's cool.

What's the frame data on Oli's grab? Why does Fox's Dair sometimes beat your Usmash and Uair? (That bothers the hell out of me) How many character lengths should Oli space when facing against Fox? What are Staple Oli tatics?

I have other questions but I don't want to just hit you guys with all of them yet. I'll look Oli's frame data too so I can learn punishments, it looks like Oli's Fair can suffer the same punishment if whiffed or on block like Marth's but I'll check just to make sure.

Edit: -________- the frame data thread doesn't show frame adv./disadv. I'm at a lost now.
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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Iblis the grab is on 11. his fair hits on 7 and ends on 42. barring any sort of lasting hitbox which as far as ik it doesn't have that means you have 35 frames to punish if i'm doing this correctly. Add in shield drop frames for more moves and you have 28. And if you use an aerial you have to add fox's jumping frames and the startup of whatever aerial. If it's mis spaced we can JCUS. If it's spaced i'm pretty sure we can dash upsmash as well. Not entirely sure cuz i don't know dash startup+distances+other variables.
 

Conviction

Human Nature
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Dash is out frame 1, Usmash on 8, you can buffer the Usmash to start right with the dash so it's only 8 frames of start up
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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I'd really appreciate it, Chuee. ^_^


What's the frame data on Oli's grab?

-Standing Grab-
Hitbox - Frames 11-25
Ends on frame 30

-Pivot Grab-
Hitbox - Frame 11-25
Ends on frame 36

-Running Grab-
Hitbox - Frame 11-25
Ends on frame 40


Why does Fox's Dair sometimes beat your Usmash and Uair? (That bothers the hell out of me)

Because Pikmin are stupid. Or to put it another way, Pikmin attacks have little actual priority and can't really clank with other attacks.
We just have to space well. =P

How many character lengths should Oli space when facing against Fox?

Depends on the character used to measure.
I like to stay JUST in Fsmash range or JUST outside of Fsmash range. Our Fsmash, not your Fsmash.

What are Staple Oli tatics?

I'm a little unsure of what you mean here. Like Usmash OoS and Pivot grab or something?

Also, we can also land after the Fair. Haven't checked the frame data on it, but it feels a bit faster.
 

Chuee

Smash Hero
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Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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If we bdacus OoS we can still punish oli's that land with fair i believe cuz he has 15 frames of landing lag from it. Upsmash is 8 frames and buffered OoS is 15 frames. So even assuming oli does everything perfect we have about i'd say 2-3 frames to react to it on shield and bdacus OoS.
 

Conviction

Human Nature
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It's all good, thought there was another Yui running around and Yui changed his name to his one tag "Hisame" (irrc it was Hisame)
 

Rizk18

Smash Lord
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I hate this MU soooo much. My second most hated MU after IC. I just run and laser. Pretty much it. i heard that N-air'ing into Olimar is good but that couldn't be more stupid since they can just U-smash oos. I have no idea about this MU and would also like advice :)
 

Conviction

Human Nature
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In their most recent set hasn't Yui beat Nietono?

Also there's no discussion going so I can't really ask questions or learn anything...do any Olimars actually play against Fox?
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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The only Fox I've ever played against was MegaFox. Won the first set handily, he switched characters for the second set.

Primary goal was preventing the Usmash. Once you get over 90, look for the Usmash. If he can't get it, it's quite a bit harder for him to kill.
Range was just close enough to cause discomfort. He CAN outcamp us, but the threat of an Fsmash can force him to stop.
Doesn't really seem like Fox has any really good killing throws, so Usmash OoS was useful.
Can't really remember a lot beyond that.

Sorry, I've been a little busy and many of the other Olimars don't really seem too enthusiastic about discussing match-ups right now.
Ohhhhh wellllllll...
 

Conviction

Human Nature
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I guess I'll just have to do some studies on Oli then. I hope you don't mind if I hang around your boards for a bit.
 

DtJ SquidBurrMoneyBurr

Smash Champion
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The fox matchup like most comes down to spacing and grabs, like most. He cannot out camp us, that's just how it is, And a lot of his approach options are fairly telegraphed.

Throw pikmin, rack damage, you dont want fox in your personal space at all.

If he does approach it'll be near the time when you go to pluck, just bait it out, and snag fox with a grab.

His recovery options against us are not that great either, his side b can be punished pretty hard with either a well time Upsmash or pivot grab.

Fox's Foward air however in this match up is incredibly useful, if they do get in and manage to get you in the air, whistling the hit is not your best option as Fair will still hit, Aswell as punishing us while trying to land.

Try not to roll when near fox, it's easy for him to take advantage of us :(.

REMEMBER you can grab twice or more! so do it!

I will add more when I'm not in a hotel room pressed for time, but for now that's it.


[1:28:55 AM] Fino: what I just listed is a way to do an up-special while maintaining the momentum of your dash and shooting the pikmin the opposite direction
[1:28:58 AM] Fino: beats nado on reaction
[1:29:11 AM] Fino: fox match-up is
[1:29:12 AM] Julian Merino: ya idk how to keep the momentum
[1:29:15 AM] Fino: get under a platform
[1:29:18 AM] Fino: start camping
[1:29:19 AM] Fino: win
[1:29:21 AM] Julian Merino: xD
[1:29:22 AM] Fino: don't jump
[1:29:24 AM] Dr.Squid: hahaha
[1:29:38 AM] Fino: you jump
[1:29:41 AM] Fino: you're getting usmashed
[1:29:45 AM] Dr.Squid: yeah
[1:29:48 AM] Fino: you get out from under that platform
[1:29:52 AM] Fino: you're getting dair'd
[1:29:56 AM] Fino: safe bet is
[1:30:00 AM] Fino: pick up ICs or pikachu
[1:30:03 AM] Fino: if they want to CP FD
[1:30:09 AM] Fino: according to unity stage list
[1:30:11 AM] Fino: you're safe
[1:30:26 AM] Julian Merino: ya that stage list benefits olimar really well
[1:30:30 AM] Julian Merino: for neutrals
[1:30:35 AM] Fino: I just covered the entire fox metagame
[1:30:36 AM] Fino: btw
[1:30:40 AM] Fino: tons of zeton practice
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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I guess I'll just have to do some studies on Oli then. I hope you don't mind if I hang around your boards for a bit.
I do mind, actually. NO OUTSIDERRRRSSSSSS...
Do what you want! If it's posted in a public place, there's no reason for you to not be able to view it. ^^;

Thank you for that, Squid.
I'm looking forward to hearing your explanation for how we should camp against him to avoid being outcamped.
 

M@v

Subarashii!
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Oddly enough I feel I'm better at this mu than I am with Falco, who's supposed to do a hell of a lot better. Regardless most of my experience in this mu involves me losing because the olimar I play most often is logic. Some input on the mu when I'm home.
 

DtJ SquidBurrMoneyBurr

Smash Champion
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Anything helps m@v, and thanks once I'm back home I'll try to add more, but the convo I had linked from myself Jules and fino talking should give you a bsic outline of what are side of the mu is like.

:phone:
 

Dnyce

Smash Master
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Allen, TX
Take him to fd, approach carefully with dair, fish for up smashes haha.

:phone:
This tactic is 100% viable vs Olimar.


tl;dr what I squid posted from skype


I have a feeling you guys finally figured out how to get me to participate in this garbage, lmao



swag



:shyguy: :shyguy: :shyguy:
 

Conviction

Human Nature
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Going to have some matches vs. Oli soon from some money matches I did on Saturday.

Maybe it can help further discussion (and maybe I can get some help LOL)
 
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