Dispelling ZSS Myths FOREVER using frame and hitbox data :)

Myth 1: Forward Smash is Weak

We are wrong. Forward smash is a perfectly good kill move, if you can land it.

Back air starts killing at about 110 on Mario when fresh. Fsmash actually hits harder than that if you don't charge it, if you hit with a certain hitbox. The hitbox is the one closest to ZSS that IS NOT attached to her. It's at about the range of ftilt. To get a better idea of where this hitbox is, we can look at:



In this picture, you can see the hitboxes attached to ZSS' bones. At the time, no one could figure out how to see the articles attached to articles. It might be possible now, but I'm not sure.

Just after this hitbox, however, there's another one. More specifically, this one:



In this, image, we see that a AOC box 3 on frame 9 does C in damage (12). 12, and has 100 KBG and 35 base KB. The size of the hitbox is 4, which while not amazing, is bigger than the largest hitboxes on utilt, slightly. This hitbox is active for frames 9, 10, and 11 of f-smash's action (so if we're counting the 11 frame subaction, frames 20-22; note that frame 12 is deleted).

For comparison, here is the data for the strongest hit on back air. I have chosen back air because it's a common kill move:



Back air has the same KBG at 100, but lower base KB at 33 (dec), which means that back air, a move we use for kiling all the time, actually has lower kill power than this hitbox of forward smash, which is produced at about ftilt range.

Fsmash also does in fact benefit from a charge on all hitboxes. The charged version does 17% or 18% damage, 5% or 6% more than if it were uncharged. This damage increase directly increases knockback, always. The damage increase is unfortunately not a lot, but there is an increase in knockback. Because fsmash never stales, it should always kill Mario at about 85%, assuming a full charge, and at about 105% assuming no charge with no DI.

Dsmash -> fully charged perfectly spaced fsmash is a good kill option, as long as we consider back air to be a good kill option anyway.

Myth 2: ZSS sucks on shield, and side-b can be dash grabbed if shielded on reaction

Time to put this garbage to rest forever!

Side-b ends on frame 44. The second hit ends on frame 33 (the hit we're worried about). Side-b calls a hitlag displacement flag, but let's assume it didn't, because it's even funnier if you do. The player has about 10 frames in which to drop shield and dash grab the opponent. Meta Knight's dash grab has 7 frames of start-up, so this is simply not possible.

If he power shields, he doesn't have to drop shield, so he has 3 frames to closer the distance necessary for his dash grab to connect before ZSS can down-b away. Not happening!

Of course, this is completely ignoring the fact that the move has less hitlag than normal for ZSS (like down smash) making all of this even more impossible.

Myth, as they say, busted!

Myth 3: this is not a myth

This one is less prevalent, but did you know that ZSS' dash attack has transcendent priority? Clash is set to 0, the same as down smash, grabs, Falco's lasers, and all of Meta Knight's sword attacks. That means if Meta Knight nados low, you should at least trade with it with dash attack and potentially beat it.

Myth 4: Forward Air is less powerful than back air and back air is ZSS' best kill move.

This is actually just plan wrong.

Here's back air again:



Back air, as stated above, has 100 KBG and 33 BKB, and deals 13 damage fresh.

Here's forward air's strongest hit (the beginning of the second attack)



Forward air has 105 KBG, and a whopping 40 base KB. It deals 11 points of damage, so 2 less than back air. As a result, fair is probably slightly better than bair, especially considering that bair is usually stale.

Your best kill options after a down smash are:

1. Sweet spot fully charged fsmash
2. Second hit fair sweetspot
3. Back air

Myth 5: Orion powershields my charged dsmash and hits me out of shield

A charged dsmash on shield has 0 frame advatage, meaning there is actually nothing any character can do out of shield to beat you except options with hitboxes on frame 1. The only way anyone is hitting you after a PS'd charged dsmash is if it's badly spaced and they pop a Dolphin Slash, Shuttle Loop, or Fortress. Otherwise, you can buffer a jab and beat anything.

More coming soon! If you have a myth you want me to explore or anything to add, let me know here.

Very interesting. Just a few questions

When you say fsmash never stales, do you mean it ACTUALLY never stales (like nair) or that it never stales because people never use it? I'm assuming the former but I just want to be sure.

In the table you put up for bair, it says KBG = 64 and BKB = 21, but right below the table you said it has 100 KBG and 35 BKB. How are you getting from 64-100 and 21-35? (I know pretty much nothing about hitbox/frame data)

Could you also explain what KBG and BKB are, for those that don't know (ie me)?

Aside:

Is it true that each hit of usmash refreshes your other moves? I read this and thought it would be extremely useful at higher percents so that uair and bair would be fresh(er) again. If not, another myth!

Does attacking stage hurtboxes (eg Shy Guy's in YI:B, the gooey things in Brinstar, statues in CS, etc) stale your moves (assuming they CAN stale)? Again, I tend to usmash these when I can.

Hopefully you can answer all these questions, and great thread!

Somehow I knew to an extent what FWK was going to post before I even looked rofl.

infiniteV115 said:

Very interesting. Just a few questions

When you say fsmash never stales, do you mean it ACTUALLY never stales (like nair) or that it never stales because people never use it? I'm assuming the former but I just want to be sure.

In the table you put up for bair, it says KBG = 64 and BKB = 21, but right below the table you said it has 100 KBG and 35 BKB. How are you getting from 64-100 and 21-35? (I know pretty much nothing about hitbox/frame data) different data language used

Could you also explain what KBG and BKB are, for those that don't know (ie me)? knockback growth / base knockback iirc

Aside:

Is it true that each hit of usmash refreshes your other moves? I read this and thought it would be extremely useful at higher percents so that uair and bair would be fresh(er) again. If not, another myth!
no

Does attacking stage hurtboxes (eg Shy Guy's in YI:B, the gooey things in Brinstar, statues in CS, etc) stale your moves (assuming they CAN stale)? Again, I tend to usmash these when I can.
yes

Hopefully you can answer all these questions, and great thread!

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Aight np kiddo

What ramses said. I should have clarified that I converted all of the figures from hex to dec so you wouldn't have to do it.

FWK: Can I put that on top of the OP LOL

I thought it went without saying

Ty Ramses
Guess I should just stale my jab or upB or something XD

Forward smash still sucks though

Yet another over-zealous frame data analysis that fails to take into account positioning.

SideB can be punished by dash grab not because of the lag afterwards on the move itself, but because the positioning and timing of the move itself will cause you to also eat landing lag frames as well as a few frames in the air where you can't get out a damaging hitbox.

Such is life with ZSS's absolutely terrible shorthop.

Thiocyanide said:

Yet another over-zealous frame data analysis that fails to take into account positioning.

SideB can be punished by dash grab not because of the lag afterwards on the move itself, but because the positioning and timing of the move itself will cause you to also eat landing lag frames as well as a few frames in the air where you can't get out a damaging hitbox.

Such is life with ZSS's absolutely terrible shorthop.

Click to expand...

Lets compare!

If he power shields, he doesn't have to drop shield, so he has 3 frames to closer the distance necessary for his dash grab to connect before ZSS can down-b away. Not happening!

Click to expand...

But hey, nice try.

Ramses said:

Lets compare!



But hey, nice try.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing that in this little theorycrafting bubble that you not only are at perfect horizontal spacing but also perfect vertical spacing?

That rarely happens in a match even for the best players. If you're using retreating sideB in a position where you need the pressure you're not getting that spacing, ever.

But hey, like I said, continue using frame data incorrectly.

Thio, if Orion is allowed perfect conditions (he will always PS your 1 frame moves and be in a position necessary to take advantage of his powershielding) then so are we.

In any case, I don't even believe you need perfect conditions for this to be applicable. Say he predicts your side-b and powershields it on the inside of the round hitbox at the edge; he still has to buffer a nearly perfect out of shield dash grab to be able to grab you before you down-b. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if it happens, it's not because ZSS or side-b sucks, it's because he caught you in a bad position, forced bad spacing, and reacted quickly. In short, he outplayed you.

Your argument was that you suffer landing lag and a few frames in which you cannot throw out a damaging hitbox.
I simply responded to THAT. Dont take my post out of context.

You know that if SideBs animation ends while landing, you dont suffer landing lag, right? So If you suffer landing lag, you practically end your sideB 1 frame before you land, and nothing else. If you have 1 frame more, a buffered downB will get through, but only when thats impossible, sideB will switch to the landing lag.

So having no offensive hitbox is no argument, and having landing lag is HARDLY ever true. What is left of your argument? You say that 11 frames are enough for someone to hit you? Maybe Metaknight/Snake/Sheik with Dash Attack because of her extended hitbox+accelaration, but nothing else, really. Why would you pressure those characters with a JUMPING SideB in the first place? Their Dash Attacks can crawl under those, lol. But yeah, a grounded sideB will get punished if powershielded, sure.

And yes, if you hit with the second part, you practically auto-spaced. Its impossible to get past, like, half of where the bubble is and still powershield.
And if you dont powershield you get knocked back to far, but I guess thats irrelevant?

ZSS FSmash can kill?

Mind blown.

I'll address the other stupidity later. That said:

Buffering jab is a frame trap on yourself on almost every good character in the game.

WE GOT A THING AND ITS CALLED

RADAH LOVE

This is an awesome idea for a thread, major props. I never knew about DA being transcendent, I guess it doesn't really matter practically since the hitbox isn't big enough to be abused.

Also nice to know that fsmash has a use. I'd be curious to see the comparison in kill % between say a dsmash-charged fsmash, dsmash x2 - bair, dsmash x2 -fsmash, dsmash x3 -uair etc., since the damage from the extra dsmash(es) are going to make a difference in killing ability.

Thiocyanide said:

I'll address the other stupidity later. That said:

Buffering jab is a frame trap on yourself on almost every good character in the game.

WE GOT A THING AND ITS CALLED

RADAH LOVE

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Jab1 has +1 advantage on hit if cancelled perfectly...

Thio the fact that you says that, says without a doubt, that you shouldn't be listened to. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, side-b has no landing lag.

Supermodel From Paris said:

Thio the fact that you says that, says without a doubt, that you shouldn't be listened to. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, side-b has no landing lag.

Click to expand...

He was talking about that 1 frame where you cant downB yet are forced to land, giving you +2 or +4 frames of landing lag.

What are you talking about? The animation is 44 frames long. If you land during the animation, all that happens is the animation completes unless you happen to land after 44, in which you incur a soft landing "penalty" of 3 frames. If you're saying you're getting punished because you used side-b on the top of a shield and then were stuck landing for 8 frames, that's your fault, and if you land any time before frame 45, you don't incur a soft landing penalty (3 frames).

EDIT: I have someone telling me now that landing after frame 35 cancels the frames from 36-44, but I don't see that in the frame data I have, so for now I'll have to say it's not true.

FYI, here is the frame data for side-b (aerial):

Btw, dash-attack being transcendent doesn't mean much when it's connected to our hurtboxes.

Nick, dash attack is actually really amazing anti-air vs. any aerial that has long range but isn't disjointed (as an example, against Wolf's fair).

Fun fact: down smash was very obviously intended to be super safe on block. There are three contributing factors:

1. It calls a special flag that invokes 0 hitlag for the attacker and the defender, but doesn't decrease shield hitlag.
2. most of the animation startup length is part of a 16-frame sub-action, severely increasing the amount of shield advantage.
3. The animation is 16+34=50 frames long, but has IASA frames on 16+21=37. the 13 IASA frames make it a perfect 0 advantage when charged, which can't be a coincidence.

Ramses said:

Jab1 has +1 advantage on hit if cancelled perfectly...

Click to expand...

Once again, we look only at the data and not at the options we have with that +1.

Thiocyanide said:

Once again, we look only at the data and not at the options we have with that +1.

Click to expand...

Shield, spotdodge, 2 rolls, 2 jumps, dash away, downb, re-jab etc

Besides that, he needs to predict it to punish, because we can also opt not to jab if they think that were gonna jab (yomi etc etc) and if you jab his shield you basically got read and deserve to get punished. So yeah, on hit +1 advantage, even then he has the basic options like us, so once again, its a reading matter. If he opts for upb/dtilt you can shield > punish, if he shields you can dash away, if he rolls you can grab it etc etc

Tldr - If you get punished you got read.

BRING BACK F SMASH OWN ZONE!!!! c

Is D-Smash = D-Smash = Grab = Down Attack = Uair is a decent killing combo?

-MT

MT Zehvor said:

Is D-Smash = D-Smash = Grab = Down Attack = Uair is a decent killing combo?

-MT

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D-throw doesn't combo into anything.
So, not really.

Ramses said:

Shield, spotdodge, 2 rolls, 2 jumps, dash away, downb, re-jab etc

Besides that, he needs to predict it to punish, because we can also opt not to jab if they think that were gonna jab (yomi etc etc) and if you jab his shield you basically got read and deserve to get punished. So yeah, on hit +1 advantage, even then he has the basic options like us, so once again, its a reading matter. If he opts for upb/dtilt you can shield > punish, if he shields you can dash away, if he rolls you can grab it etc etc

Tldr - If you get punished you got read.

Click to expand...

>brings up rolls, shield, spotdodge as options

Yeah, ok. Whatever you say, maestro.

Thiocyanide said:

>brings up rolls, shield, spotdodge as options

Yeah, ok. Whatever you say, maestro.

Click to expand...

Argumentum ad lapidem

This is really well done.

Ramses said:

Argumentum ad lapidem

Click to expand...

Considering this thread is all about frame data, maybe you ought to read up on said frame data.

Really?

Her spot dodge is intang from frames 2-20, with the whole animation lasting 25 frames. The only characters with a better spot dodge are Yoshi, Pikachu, Marth, Toon Link, Falco, and Link. Zero Suit Samus has the same spot dodge as the majority of the rest of the cast, with every other character's being worse. Dedede's broken spot dodge (with the Z axis weirdness) isn't possible to measure by frame data like this, but yeah it's better too.

Her forward roll is weird, but not bad. It lasts 27 frames and she's intang from frames 4 until frame 15. She technically has one of the best forward rolls in the game. The only characters with better forward rolls are Meta Knight (5-12/23, so only really because the animation lasts less time), Lucario (4-19/27), and Pit (4-19/27). Every single other character in the game has a longer forward foll animation than ZSS. Diddy and Squirtle have 2 extra frames of intang, but every other character's froll is blatantly worse.

ZSS has the second best air dodge in the game at 4-29/39, although I realize why that's not relevant here.

The only bad defensive animations ZSS has are her back roll and directional techs, but none of her "dodges" are terrible. Hell, she has one of the best shield-to-hurtbubble ratios gamewide.

Please explain what you are talking about!

Anything he commits to you can avoid, if its a stronger move a roll avoids it, if its a fast move you can powershield>punish. Hell, at that range you can pretty much always shield>punish, except maybe like ftilts

I know this is late and random, but almost every smash has 1 frame of start-up less than we thought. Usmash starts on frame 8 and not 9 for instance, fsmash is 20, not 21, etc because one frame of each animation is cut off between the smash and the start-up subaction.

Supermodel From Paris said:

Really?

Her spot dodge is intang from frames 2-20, with the whole animation lasting 25 frames. The only characters with a better spot dodge are Yoshi, Pikachu, Marth, Toon Link, Falco, and Link. Zero Suit Samus has the same spot dodge as the majority of the rest of the cast, with every other character's being worse. Dedede's broken spot dodge (with the Z axis weirdness) isn't possible to measure by frame data like this, but yeah it's better too.

Her forward roll is weird, but not bad. It lasts 27 frames and she's intang from frames 4 until frame 15. She technically has one of the best forward rolls in the game. The only characters with better forward rolls are Meta Knight (5-12/23, so only really because the animation lasts less time), Lucario (4-19/27), and Pit (4-19/27). Every single other character in the game has a longer forward foll animation than ZSS. Diddy and Squirtle have 2 extra frames of intang, but every other character's froll is blatantly worse.

ZSS has the second best air dodge in the game at 4-29/39, although I realize why that's not relevant here.

The only bad defensive animations ZSS has are her back roll and directional techs, but none of her "dodges" are terrible. Hell, she has one of the best shield-to-hurtbubble ratios gamewide.

Please explain what you are talking about!

Click to expand...

There was a post way early in the game's lifetime that broke down actual invincibility time vs intangibility time. ZSS is actually only invincible for the middle third of most of her dodges. Unless that information has magically changed in the past two years.

I'm not really going to make a huge post explaining myself or citing sources or anything because I don't really care if you think I'm right or not. I'm just letting you know you're wrong.

If the character was as good as you seem to think she is more than one player would be performing with her.

Entrants: 87

1.Mr-R (290€) Marth
2.Leon (145€) Marth
3.Kaos (80€) Metaknight
4.quiKsilver (50€) / ZSS/Samus
5.Orion (25€) MK/Falco
5.iStudying (25€) Diddy/IC
7.Staco (15€) MK
7.Blub (15€) Falco
9.T Wolf/Dedede
9.Luigi_player Diddy Kong
9.Crysis Snake/MK/Falco/Marth
9.Desti Snake/Weegee

Click to expand...

Beating LP, Orion, Staco.

Is Kaos a Marth too? If so, lol Europe and their Marth mania.

Kaos is a MK who took a break and this is like his first tourney in >6 months.
He used to be one of the top, he used to team with Charby and beat quiKsilver this tourney, actually.

The only Marths there are the top2, ill edit it to show chars (or at least an estimate)