Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #10 - Lucario [Expires Eventually]

Sails · Jun 19, 2011

Yes, this is the original beta phrase instead of Get Blue Spheres

It is important that you read this! Every first post by a user in a Matchup Thread is encouraged to have at least a couple of sentences of information, alongside a ratio. Posts may not be considered for ratio and summary solidifying without these from the poster at some point in the thread, and keeping them towards the beginning helps keep discussion tidy. You have two weeks to share information that you feel is helpful in the Matchup, as well as debate with others. Compelling arguments are a must people, I expect any joking and trolls to be at a minimum.

Ideas for discussion...

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Diddy's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-

Note: This Matchup has been discussed in the past. If you wish to pull content from previous discussions that are still relevant in the current Metagame, then feel free to do so. This includes posts that are both yours and not yours.

Schwa · Jun 20, 2011

I tend to stay at mid range in this MU, since Lucario can't really be camped because of his aura sphere, which goes through our peanuts. Watch out for AS if you're shooting peanuts at him.

Limit Lucario in the air by throwing naners up, and outspace their dairs with fair or bair. Pay attention to your landings, try not to get caught in their AS frametraps.
Lucario is very annoing on high percents because of the aura thing giving him more power as he gains percent. He will probably die around 170% or so, so save your smashes until then.
Lucario's dair destroys our barrels, and he'll most likely be spamming it near the ledge when you are about to recover from down below. Lucario can do some pretty nasty stuff if he gets a naner, for example naner->f-smash or naner->AS, his GT is quite long too.

As for stages, I ban Frigate and I CP SV or BF. Pretty much any neutral is a good CP vs Lucario(except for YI because they have more recovery options there).

SaveMeJebus · Jun 24, 2011

Diddy Kong's Fair goes through all of Lucario's Aura Spheres.

Player-1 · Jun 24, 2011

It doesn't go through it, it clanks with it, and most of Diddy's move clank with aura sphere when lucario is below 80%. I'll write something later, I know this MU pretty well as a good friend of mine has mained this char since day 1.

Yikarur · Jun 26, 2011

Diddy fair gets beaten by aura sphere at Higher percents
fresh fair does 14%, fresh Aura sphere at 170% 25%
if fair is stale it doesn't go through fresh aura spheres at >100%, but both move are never fresh but I wouldn't risk to jump into a full charged one lol

SaveMeJebus · Jun 26, 2011

Yikarur said:
Diddy fair gets beaten by aura sphere at Higher percents
fresh fair does 14%, fresh Aura sphere at 170% 25%
if fair is stale it doesn't go through fresh aura spheres at >100%, but both move are never fresh but I wouldn't risk to jump into a full charged one lol

It still goes through. It doesn't clash because the Fair hitbox stays out. I tested it

chimpact · Jun 28, 2011

If you get the stock lead, you don't really need to hit him, because none of his moves KO at low %

Steam · Jul 8, 2011

If lucario is at high enough damage his fully charged AS will flat out beat diddy's fair. But he has to be way up there for that

MythTrainerInfinity · Jul 8, 2011

Brawl has a 8% rule. If something does 8% or more than another attack it will outprioritize it. Unless if you have transcendent priority (like MK or just the Aura of Lucario's moves).

This is how much each fresh Aura move does at even stocks, I made this spreadsheet awhile ago.
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1382/auramythtrainerinfinity.png

This is one really stupidly campy MU.

Okay, we will strike FD and SV most likely, so I'm not exactly sure what stage you guys will pick out of the remaining three.

Our FAir is great at picking up nanners too. One thing I like to do is... Throw Aura Spheres when Diddy throws his nanners. If both projectiles hit both characters we'll be outdamaging you in that regard.

On neutrals in about the middle your DSmash won't kill us until like 155%, your UTilt at about 165%.

I usually like CPing Lylat against Diddy, you guys will have a harder time killing us on there, but we'll have a harder time hitting you.

Diddy's FAir is annoying, on what frame does it come out, how long does it stay out, and what is its cooldown or IASA (if it has IASA frames)?

Its a rather even matchup in my opinion. Its easy for both characters to rack on a ton of damage before the other evens the stocks.

What would you guys say is the most annoying thing to do to your nanners as Diddy: Throw them offstage, throw them up, throw them at you, or just camp with one in hand?

Player-1 · Jul 8, 2011

Fair hits on frame 6, Dsmash should like only kill at 155% if the opponent as REALLY REALLY good DI and you're not on the opposite side of the blastzone and it's not stale >.>, I like lylat against Lucario because it's easier to kill actually it has smaller ceilings, YI is definitely your best neutral

Ingulit · Jul 8, 2011

MythTrainerInfinity said:
Brawl has a 8% rule. If something does 8% or more than another attack it will outprioritize it. Unless if you have transcendent priority (like MK or just the Aura of Lucario's moves).

This may be a dumb question, but could you explain what the "Aura" of Lucario's moves is? Is it just the disjointedness, or is it something different?

MythTrainerInfinity said:
Okay, we will strike FD and SV most likely, so I'm not exactly sure what stage you guys will pick out of the remaining three.

Diddy would probably strike to either PS1 or Battlefield in that case.

MythTrainerInfinity said:
Diddy's FAir is annoying, on what frame does it come out, how long does it stay out, and what is its cooldown or IASA (if it has IASA frames)?

Forward Aerial
Landing Lag: 30
(Sweetspot)

Hits on Frame: 6-9
Duration: 56
Hitlag: 10
Blockstun: 4
Blockhitlag: 10
Base Damage: 14%

(Sourspot)

Hits on Frame: 10-16
Duration: 55
Hitlag: 9
Blockstun: 3
Blockhitlag: 9
Base Damage: 11%

There are no IASA frames to speak of AFAIK.

MythTrainerInfinity said:
What would you guys say is the most annoying thing to do to your nanners as Diddy: Throw them offstage, throw them up, throw them at you, or just camp with one in hand?

Never throw them offstage; that's probably our favorite choice most of the time, since we can then pull a new one away from you. If you are confident with just your Special moves, you can camp with the Banana, but I'd recommend throwing it up most of the time.

Player-1 · Jul 8, 2011

wtf I wouldn't strike either of those stages against Lucario

Ingulit · Jul 8, 2011

Player-1 said:
wtf I wouldn't strike either of those stages against Lucario

I worded that poorly; I meant we would strike so that we end up on either of those two.

MythTrainerInfinity · Jul 9, 2011

Lucario's Aura moves are the moves that set the opponent on blue fire and increase as he takes damage. The exceptions to this rule are Dash Attack, BThrow, and Extremespeed (lol).

All of Lucario's A moves have Aura (except Dash Attack) and are rather disjointed... If you want to cling or outprioritize him you have to make sure your attack area hits his paws or his feet.

Also, if you wanna cling with Force Palm's flame you have to hit it in the middle of the flame. Yeah, Aura is pretty weird sometimes.

DiSQO_BuNNY · Nov 13, 2011

I'm bumping this. Let's get some more input and junk so we can move on soon! Gogogo

Zinoto · Nov 13, 2011

DiSQO_BuNNY said:
I'm bumping this. Let's get some more input and junk so we can move on soon! Gogogo

I was wondering if this thread was ever going to come back to life.

I've played a couple decent Lucario's, but the main problem I've seen them have is when you space really well. Diddy's bananas can really shut down Lucario's air game if you throw them up in the air and racking up damage makes Lucario pretty easy to deal with, but when Lucario starts hitting that danger zone he becomes pretty tough. I usually stay right outside Lucario's range so that when he does make a move, I'm right there waiting to punish. Also, I don't like to camp because he does it better

. His Aura Sphere Frametraps are also really good, so just watch you're landing. Diddy has a noticeable advantage over Lucario, but it's definitely nothing that Lucario can't make up if he outplays Diddy.

55:45 Our favor.

sparkaura · Nov 13, 2011

Zinoto said:
I was wondering if this thread was ever going to come back to life.

I've played a couple decent Lucario's, but the main problem I've seen them have is when you space really well. Diddy's bananas can really shut down Lucario's air game if you throw them up in the air and racking up damage makes Lucario pretty easy to deal with, but when Lucario starts hitting that danger zone he becomes pretty tough. I usually stay right outside Lucario's range so that when he does make a move, I'm right there waiting to punish. Also, I don't like to camp because he does it better . His Aura Sphere Frametraps are also really good, so just watch you're landing. Diddy has a noticeable advantage over Lucario, but it's definitely nothing that Lucario can't make up if he outplays Diddy.

55:45 Our favor.

I agree with the ratio. I've played Alphazealot and another diddy main and this looks about right. Diddy's main issue is killing here and beware we can catch banana's with F-air which is our main approach. AS shuts down camping and we do have some nanner trick's from what I heard. Spacing wise I would think lucario's would have better spacing generally. If the Lucario has great nanner control it may be 50-50. I've noticed a diddy w/o nanners has like no approach correct me if I'm wrong on anything. Final verdict for me 55-45 or 50-50 its pretty damn even despite diddy being extremely annoying.

DiSQO_BuNNY · Nov 13, 2011

sparkaura said:
I agree with the ratio. I've played Alphazealot and another diddy main and this looks about right. Diddy's main issue is killing here and beware we can catch banana's with F-air which is our main approach. AS shuts down camping and we do have some nanner trick's from what I heard. Spacing wise I would think lucario's would have better spacing generally. If the Lucario has great nanner control it may be 50-50. I've noticed a diddy w/o nanners has like no approach correct me if I'm wrong on anything. Final verdict for me 55-45 or 50-50 its pretty damn even despite diddy being extremely annoying.

As far as my experience in this MU, I've always had lucarios who resort to defense. Only approaching when I get close, camping, spacing. I like to treat this MU with a snake approach, which is full hop nanas. Even shielded, it gives you an opportunity to close some distance. Also, I look for hard reads on the rolling, since lucs roll is so good. I would even say it's 60-40 us, but I'll consult the mighty trela for his input

phi1ny3 · Nov 13, 2011

I think it's +1/55:45 Diddy's favor. Aura helps, but Diddy's still such a good character.

I like Frigate as Lucario personally, I would arguably ban that first if you're not comfortable with that stage. The whole stage really helps lucario's mediocre recovery, since each ledge has a wall, and the stage flips around which cleans the stage of bananas sometimes (good and bad depending on the situation, but usually good from what I've observed), and the right side lets Lucario harass Diddy's recovery a bit better, since he can wallcling from ES and ignore the fact that it doesn't have a ledge, but will often force diddy to use barrels and have punishable lag.

I'm not sure why someone mentioned Yoshi's as the neutral you want to use against Lucario, I actually sorta like the stage because it makes bananas weaken in strength; most of the bananas after they hit you go up on the platform, despite it being sorta high for some reason lol, and the platform in general is conducive to more approach options. That and the stage''s blastzones are a little larger than your usual stage, making it a little better for lucario's survivability. And of course, the wallcling/occasional ghost plat helps lucario's meh recovery sometimes. I actually don't like fighting Diddy on SV usually, a banana toss covers so much ground on that stage, and the platform almost helps diddy's edgeguard game at times as it might help Lucario's recovery occasionally (I've been plat dropped/banana'd -> fair so often against Felix and a few Diddy's in my area on that stage, I just don't like that stage at all for this MU lol, I almost prefer FD over SV at times, as crazy as that sounds).

Lucario shouldn't use fsmash in this MU except when Diddy is on the ledge, it's sooooooo punishable by bananas.

Lucario with a banana under control is pretty good, don't throw it back unless you feel the Diddy won't throw it back in your face lol, but AS is actually decent in conjunction with playing keep-away with a banana, especially if you throw them upwards as someone said.

If you go in diagonals, you're going to get hit by aerials oos, if you go in lateral directions (directly above or on the sides of Diddy), you're going to get banana'd unless you make him throw it early.

sparkaura · Nov 13, 2011

Throwing out baby AS's help too, it disrupts the flow sometimes giving you some breathing room. I feel like defensive play in this MU is best as Lucario anyway. Still, I wouldn't give this one a 60:40, Diddy doesn't shut down anything really he has great pressure game which screws us over lol

Gnes · Nov 14, 2011

I used to think this was 60:40, but after becoming practice partners with trela I think its more along the lines of 55:45. He could be an outlier, but I don't believe so. I remember Wyatt thinking it was in Lulu's favor at one point, so I don't think my opinion is too much of a stretch. I also think I have the best experience in this matchup ^_^

Oonai · Nov 14, 2011

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229067

^ Some copy pasta on diddy match-up from Lucario boards, to help along discussion.

They suggest the match-up sits at 55:45.

DiSQO_BuNNY · Nov 14, 2011

Gnes said:
I used to think this was 60:40, but after becoming practice partners with trela I think its more along the lines of 55:45. He could be an outlier, but I don't believe so. I remember Wyatt thinking it was in Lulu's favor at one point, so I don't think my opinion is too much of a stretch. I also think I have the best experience in this matchup ^_^

This, in no way, gave any experience knowledge of any sort....ih8u

Oonai · Nov 15, 2011

I find that the defensive stance taken by most Lucario's make this match-up in diddy's favor. Lucario doesn't have many options of approaching when diddy has his banana's out while diddy can approach with banana traps.

One of my favorites in this match-up is downward glide tossing>shield>turn around and punish (anticipating roll). Or a simple SH (or full) nanner toss> Fglidetoss (with safe spacing)>react. Lucario has a great roll, but when a lucario gets in defensive mode we can use it to our advantage even if aura>peanuts.

Smart Lucario's may not fall for these type of bully approaches often, but it causes high pressure where diddy has the chance to get a throw off stage, and punish Lucario's ****ty recovery (on most levels). Then again I don't feel like I've been exposed to a really talented Lucario in my region...... thoughts?

phi1ny3 · Nov 16, 2011

I feel the offstage game favors both fairly evenly, except on stages like Frigate

(except when gnes trolls with a barrel ballistic missile kill lol).

I really need to talk to Trela more about this MU, it's easy to beat meh diddies, but against ones like Felix, they don't do dumb punishable stuff lol.

Lucario's fair seems to cut through a lot of diddy's offstage options minus maybe sideB hump, but even then I've seen times where I've beaten that out. If you have a banana in hand and you see him using fsmash, you can ledgehop -> banana throw for a free punish. I wouldn't recommend doing it to one that's charging AS since he can throw up shield really quickly.

The one annoying thing about this MU is that Diddy can actually cover lucario's recovering when he's recovering high pretty well, which is actually one of the main reasons Lucario's recovery isn't so bad in practice as it is on paper. Banana upward toss is a guess, although I think just Z-catch -> AD an incoming uair or fair is the best course to take.

Diddy's should rarely spotdodge imo, it's the one place where doing it often enough allows lucario to get in (half my kills come from hard reading spotdodge with strutterstep fsmash/AS lol), just shield then fair oos/banana/jab whatever he throws out at you. If he's taking to the air, depending on what he does, if he FHs, it's usually better to just wait out his landing, if he SHs and directly throws something at you, fair/bair it (or banana if he's on the ground).

I like this MU just because of all the cool things Lucario can do with bananas

(he can dribble both ways if you use JC downward toss for the forward variation, banana hit confirm = free AS, banana + ASC is pretty awesome haha). I also like punishing stuff with super-high aura, but I don't like the idea that it's limited because of how safe Diddy can play

Zinoto · Nov 17, 2011

phi1ny3 said:
I feel the offstage game favors both fairly evenly, except on stages like Frigate (except when gnes trolls with a barrel ballistic missile kill lol).

I really need to talk to Trela more about this MU, it's easy to beat meh diddies, but against ones like Felix, they don't do dumb punishable stuff lol.

Lucario's fair seems to cut through a lot of diddy's offstage options minus maybe sideB hump, but even then I've seen times where I've beaten that out. If you have a banana in hand and you see him using fsmash, you can ledgehop -> banana throw for a free punish. I wouldn't recommend doing it to one that's charging AS since he can throw up shield really quickly.

The one annoying thing about this MU is that Diddy can actually cover lucario's recovering when he's recovering high pretty well, which is actually one of the main reasons Lucario's recovery isn't so bad in practice as it is on paper. Banana upward toss is a guess, although I think just Z-catch -> AD an incoming uair or fair is the best course to take.

Diddy's should rarely spotdodge imo, it's the one place where doing it often enough allows lucario to get in (half my kills come from hard reading spotdodge with strutterstep fsmash/AS lol), just shield then fair oos/banana/jab whatever he throws out at you. If he's taking to the air, depending on what he does, if he FHs, it's usually better to just wait out his landing, if he SHs and directly throws something at you, fair/bair it (or banana if he's on the ground).

I like this MU just because of all the cool things Lucario can do with bananas (he can dribble both ways if you use JC downward toss for the forward variation, banana hit confirm = free AS, banana + ASC is pretty awesome haha). I also like punishing stuff with super-high aura, but I don't like the idea that it's limited because of how safe Diddy can play

Really good advice. I haven't played lots of lucarios, but I have seen trela play and the main thing I've noticed is that Lucario can trap Diddy into some pretty messy situations if you don't play safe.

SN: Since the Olimar MU is deemed even, can we open up another character MU discussion. No need to remain at a stand still now that you've gotten the ball rolling. Personally, I recommend Peach or Sheik (Peach because she's becoming a popular counter for Diddy or Sheik because she is becoming more popular in tourneys now).

SaveMeJebus · Nov 17, 2011

I think this is an even MU. He has an easier time killing you and he gets stronger as you do more damage to him.

DiSQO_BuNNY · Nov 17, 2011

Zinoto said:
Really good advice. I haven't played lots of lucarios, but I have seen trela play and the main thing I've noticed is that Lucario can trap Diddy into some pretty messy situations if you don't play safe.

SN: Since the Olimar MU is deemed even, can we open up another character MU discussion. No need to remain at a stand still now that you've gotten the ball rolling. Personally, I recommend Peach or Sheik (Peach because she's becoming a popular counter for Diddy or Sheik because she is becoming more popular in tourneys now).

New threads will be opened when we finish lucario. Monday probably.

Zinoto · Nov 17, 2011

DiSQO_BuNNY said:
New threads will be opened when we finish lucario. Monday probably.

Awesome, finally get to bring some life back into this thread ^_^

@Jebus: I can definitely see where you're coming from. Once Lucario get's into that danger zone 1 good hit can kill diddy pretty quickly. However, I think Diddy has more tools to keep Lucario from getting that kill while racking up some serious damage. Lucario kinda reminds me of Ike (since he relies on reads to get good kills in), so long as the Diddy plays safe and doesn't fall for the frame traps Lucario has I think we have the advantage.

If I had to place a number on it I'd say +1 Diddy.

DiSQO_BuNNY · Nov 18, 2011

Well said.

ChocoNaner · Nov 27, 2011

Steam said:
If lucario is at high enough damage his fully charged AS will flat out beat diddy's fair. But he has to be way up there for that

shut up you know nothing :I

it's even because we can't kill for **** and lucario can kill us at around 75% with a decently charged fsmash at like 150-170% I:

ChaosDrifter · Nov 29, 2011

I'm glad this matchup is being discussed, our 5th ranked PR member in our region is maining Lucario now that MK is banned for us, and he still got 5th place at our last tourney.

I found I have a great deal of trouble getting back on stage against Lucario. The most successful approach I took was jumping from the ledge and going above him, it had the least risk to me getting back on stage.

Fairs worked great in this matchup for me, though when Luario got to higher percents it wasn't as safe an option.

-Googs · Dec 2, 2011

banana beside ledge, grab ledge= great edge guard

ChaosDrifter · Dec 6, 2011

i'd place this matchup at 50-50, MAYBE 55-45 for diddy
I think it's very hard for either character to approach in this matchup

T-block · Dec 6, 2011

ChocoNaner said:
shut up you know nothing :I

it's even because we can't kill for **** and lucario can kill us at around 75% with a decently charged fsmash at like 150-170% I:

basically how i feel

FelixTrix · Dec 6, 2011

you just gotta out-roll lucario. i mean ummm. wait for them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTdLtCUu4f0

Gnes · Dec 8, 2011

-Googs said:
banana beside ledge, grab ledge= great edge guard

You won't kill him with that setup...and when he gets back on stage, you will die

-Googs · Dec 9, 2011

Gnes said:
You won't kill him with that setup...and when he gets back on stage, you will die

What do you suggest instead?

Gnes · Dec 9, 2011

-Googs said:
What do you suggest instead?

Knock him away from stage, not towards.

I'm not saying the setup isn't good, I use it alot, but if it doesn't get the kill against Lulu its sort of counterproductive.

-Googs · Dec 10, 2011

yeah alright makes more sense, I suppose it's better at low percents to get guaranteed damage.

Balloon Blast Matchup Thread #10 - Lucario [Expires Eventually]

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