Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar should both be banned

OverLade · Jul 23, 2011

Both of these stages are literally just gimmicks to give Metaknight free wins. Almost nobody else uses them. You can argue that they help other characters, but there are PLENTY of stages that help those characters. And the characters that these stages help still get ***** by Metaknight on these stages anyway.

Nobody likes watching Metaknight win on either of these stages.

Nobody likes playing against Metaknight on either of these stages.

The worst part about these stages is that you get free timeouts that no sort of ledgegrab rule can mitigate. I've timed people out with less than 15 ledgegrabs on both stages. I got a stock lead on Gnes at WHOBO and literally just ran away until the timer was up. I had like 17 ledgegrabs or something.

There's no reason for these stages to be legal anymore. If you're pro ban and you like seeing Metaknight be gay because you think it'll help ban him, get over yourself because as pro ban as I am right now, he's probably not going to be banned anything more than temporarily unless some serious **** is going down in the BBR right now.

Give me a reason why these stages should be legal...

Tesh · Jul 23, 2011

Nope, just Brinstar please. I actually prefer RC against MK rather than Frigate. Brinstar is completely unusable though.

OverLade · Jul 23, 2011

Your personal preference doesn't dictate whether a stage is broken or not.

BSP · Jul 23, 2011

I still don't think Brinstar is broken

Just MK is so good there.

But I'm not opposed (but don't really support) to banning both for a bit to see if it helps. With MK around, the stages aren't helping that many as opposed to hurting. But make sure you note that there's nothing wrong with the stages themselves. Mk is just too good.

But my question is, what happens when the MKs start CP another stage, and if they start winning on it a lot too? Does that stage get banned next?

Tesh · Jul 23, 2011

But you said no one uses those stages. I'm letting you know that I DO cp Rainbow Cruise and if I had to pick 2 stages not to fight MK on, it would be Frigate and Brinstar.

GunmasterLombardi · Jul 23, 2011

Why do you always hide your comments? I have to highlight just to read them.

Tesh · Jul 23, 2011

Zeus caught me messing with his woman. Ever since I was banished to a world of darkness and my posts have no soul. Only the legendary "post whisperers" can see my words. Its up to those select few to set me free.

GunmasterLombardi · Jul 23, 2011

Ookey Dokey then.

I swear everyday for the past few days people are making threads about this kind of stuff. We needed these people in '09.

ぱみゅ · Jul 23, 2011

RedHalberd, I admire you as a player and stuff, but that was absolutely dumb.

No, they're not a "free win" if both players knows what they're doing.
Some characters likes to face MK there (Wario is the first one that comes to mind).
Nobody wants to watch a MK (nor any character) camping, spamming tornados all day long (or projectyles or any stuff at all).
Finally, both stages are still legal because there's nothing wrong with them -except MK-.

That's just quickly addressing some random points out there.

san. · Jul 23, 2011

Replace them with Japes/another stage at least if people want to ban them.

I understand that one can make a case for Brinstar. The layout allows for permanent sharking and other very strong tactics with the combination of the stage design, acid, blastzones, and uneven ground. Other stages that can be sharked are all on a temporary basis, so Brinstar is pretty special in this regard.

I think someone can make a case for how strong it is for characters who can abuse this well.

If you aren't sharking the bottom, you're sharking the platforms because of the acid.

I feel that it's much harder to make a case for RC.

I feel that both should be legal, but usually picking Brinstar is an automatic MK swap for everyone.

ADHD · Jul 23, 2011

It can be argued that brinstar over centralizes MK with his ability to shark, and air camp.

not as strong as circle camping, but still reasonably strong enough to take notice. RC however, cannot be .. omg there are flies everywhere wtf!

Ussi · Jul 23, 2011

How about you get 3 stage bans, but the 2nd two only affect you when you are MK or switch to MK.

So you get a brinstar/Rc + 1 more stage ban vs Mk while if they Cp ban 2 or 3 they can't be MK unless you switch to MK nullifying your 2nd and 3rd ban.

MK can't use RC and brinstar unless you CP him there intensionally (as in he was MK game 1, no pocket MKs)

Everyone else can

Fair compromise?

OverLade · Jul 24, 2011

BSP said:
But my question is, what happens when the MKs start CP another stage, and if they start winning on it a lot too? Does that stage get banned next?

Stages like Delphino, Frigate, and even Halberd are obviously all really good for Metaknight. But there's a clear difference between a free win due to sharking and time outs and what happens on those stages. Delfino is a stage on which Metaknight can aim for timeouts, but a huge number of the transformations are actually terrible stages for him, where he cant gimp his opponent, and has no platforms to tornado to. He's punisheable on these stages and it's been proven time and time again.

Tesh said:
But you said no one uses those stages. I'm letting you know that I DO cp Rainbow Cruise and if I had to pick 2 stages not to fight MK on, it would be Frigate and Brinstar.

Let's try this again. "Your personal preference doesn't dictate whether a stage is broken or not."

You're one person who uses one character. It goes without saying that even if someone prefers Cruise over frigate, Frigate is a much more neutral stage where Metaknight isn't allowed to rely on gimmicks to win. The gimmickyness of both stages is the problem.

kyokoro_pamuyo said:
RedHalberd, I admire you as a player and stuff, but that was absolutely dumb.

No, they're not a "free win" if both players knows what they're doing.
Some characters likes to face MK there (Wario is the first one that comes to mind).
Nobody wants to watch a MK (nor any character) camping, spamming tornados all day long (or projectyles or any stuff at all).
Finally, both stages are still legal because there's nothing wrong with them -except MK-.

That's just quickly addressing some random points out there.

How about you use some evidence instead of just refuting my claims? How are Cruise and Brinstar not a free win if both players know what they're doing?

Wario, GaW and Ness are the only 3 characters that might want to take MK to Brinstar or Cruise and Metaknight beats all of them solidly on both stages.

And obviously MK is entirely what's wrong with them. And because of MK, 90% of people using the stages are either Metaknight, or their opponent is CPing Metaknight when they go there, therefore making the stages unuable.

You know how many players DONT use Cruise or Brinstar for fear of a pocket metaknight? This makes the stages essentially useless outside of MK...

Anyway, Cruise is definitely less overcentralizing than Brinstar, but you're still able to plank on the ship, then run away for the entire time on the rising part of the stage, with the 3rd part being the only chance for your opponent to actually make something happen. Cruise is only broken if you aim for timeout really, but let's not pretend that doesn't happen...

Blacknight99923 · Jul 24, 2011

RC and brinstar shouldn't be legal with or without metaknight in my honest opinion, but when you add stupid stages to a character that's greatest strength is that he has options in EVERY situation it shouldn't be surprising at all that you end up with these 2 ******** counterpicks.

cruise wouldn't be a very good metaknight stage if metaknights were intending to fight on it, but they don't lol so the stage remains stupid.

Chuee · Jul 24, 2011

I agree 100%.
Both are stupid stages imo with or without MK.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Jul 24, 2011

What would you say about MLG's data showing MK has a higher win % on Halberd and Delfino despite both stages being banned more?

OverLade · Jul 24, 2011

Data doesn't show how frustrated people get when they have no options because a character is able to be untouchable. Find enough top players who agree that Delfino and Halberd are worse than Cruise and Brinstar and we'll talk.

SaveMeJebus · Jul 24, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-X9tHOYXZU&t=1m15s

The only stage in the game that forces you into a recovery like situation

Tesh · Jul 24, 2011

Does it matter if they are worse? Aren't we discussing whats broken here? Can't they all be broken? Delfino isn't really much better than RC when MK has the lead. I think once MKs have to step up and get gay on Delfino, people will get just as frustrated. Delfino is basically a sharkfest with over half a dozen stops at walkoff and wall campings.

Blacknight99923 · Jul 24, 2011

I see metaknights lose on delphino at high level play relatively frequently, I have yet to see a metkanight lose on rainbow or brinstar when they play the stage correctly.

Chuee · Jul 24, 2011

Delfino is no where near RC.
RC he can basically run away from you the entire match, you can't do that on Delfino.

ぱみゅ · Jul 24, 2011

Tyrant vs Shaky, MLG (Dallas me thinks?)

Chuee · Jul 24, 2011

Tyrant times everyone out on Delfino though.
The difference is, I see him lose often in timeouts there while whenever I see someone run away on cruise, they win.

C.J. · Jul 24, 2011

Red Ryu said:
What would you say about MLG's data showing MK has a higher win % on Halberd and Delfino despite both stages being banned more?

I'm fairly certain someone said that this did not include dittos. Which means that it does not count MK vs [insert character here] game one, that turned into MK dittos on Brinstar game 3 because the non-MK player knew that their main would get rofled in that MU/stage combination.

Unless I'm completely wrong. In which case, ignore me.

Metakill · Jul 24, 2011

Wario and G&W can use Brinstar and RC isn't it?

i just don't find a MUST about banning RC and/or brinstar..
and YES! i'm a MK mainer... so? Here a lot of ppl know the matchup in that stages... if you aren't good enough to beat some metaknight in that stages... lol
Vinnie was to close to beat Ally's MK in Cot5 at Brinstar. Your problem that you can't do that...

OverLade · Jul 24, 2011

Metakill said:
Wario and G&W can use Brinstar and RC isn't it?

Unless their opponents go MK.

i just don't find a MUST about banning RC and/or brinstar..
and YES! i'm a MK mainer... so?

I could have stopped reading here

Here a lot of ppl know the matchup in that stages... if you aren't good enough to beat some metaknight in that stages... lol
Vinnie was to close to beat Ally's MK in Cot5 at Brinstar. Your problem that you can't do that...

You choose one match that fits your criteria out of thousands and use it as a justification for the stage not being broken? I'm a Metaknight main. What do I have to gain from wanting RC and Brinstar? They should be banned because Metaknight breaks them.

Ripple · Jul 24, 2011

so we're back on the mentality that we should ban 2 stages because of MK again. sad days

OverLade · Jul 24, 2011

Ripple be sensible. In all the time you've spent wanting Metaknight banned, we could have saved players all across the US endless gay and frustration by just adjusting the stage list.

I'm not even arguing that this stops Metaknight from being broken, I'm arguing that it stops him from getting free wins regardless of skill...

Ripple · Jul 24, 2011

RedHalberd said:
Ripple be sensible. In all the time you've spent wanting Metaknight banned, we could have saved players all across the US endless gay and frustration by just adjusting the stage list.

I'm not even arguing that this stops Metaknight from being broken, I'm arguing that it stops him from getting free wins regardless of skill...

I like RC a lot. MK doesn't get auto wins there. in fact, if you look at the MLG statistics. MK wins 87% on the time on delfino while only 60something on RC

Player-1 · Jul 24, 2011

I wreck MKs on RC.

Kantrip · Jul 24, 2011

RedHalberd said:
Nobody likes watching Metaknight win ~~on either of these stages~~.

Nobody likes playing against Metaknight ~~on either of these stages~~.

Fixed.

Honestly, there is nothing wrong with the stages.

John12346 · Jul 24, 2011

I'm just going to say right now that stages can't be banned solely because of the existence of one character. If you want them banned, then you need to prove they are janky stages that have some form of degenerate play that changes the game into one where we no longer are testing the skills we wish to test in this game.

Also, RedHalberd, being Pro-Ban or Anti-Ban on MK shouldn't change one's arguments about the legality of these stages. For example, if Brinstar/RC stay legal, MK makes more money which is good for my data, and if they both get banned because of MK, then the Pro-Ban side gains an extremely powerful argument against MK's legality. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever for one's outlook on MK's legality to affect their outlook on Brinstar/RC's legality.

I'm anti-ban as far as these stages are concerned, because they do reasonably fall within the skill levels we wish to test, and that no one's really put up a legitimate reason as to why it degenerates gameplay, but if I were to be presented with a convincing argument on that topic, I might change my tune. I know for a fact, however that stages being banned because of a character is not a smart idea whatsoever. It would cause far too much of an uproar.

Also what Ripple said. Delfino seems to be a problematic stage with MK around, as well...

Kuraudo · Jul 24, 2011

Ban Meta Knight. lol

Arcansi · Jul 24, 2011

Red Ryu said:
What would you say about MLG's data showing MK has a higher win % on Halberd and Delfino despite both stages being banned more?

1. Why exactly is MLG relevant at this point? Do we not have people collecting data past MLG, and if not, why not?

2. If I can assume the people in this thread aren't talking BS, why is it acceptable for metaknight to have 4 stages that he basically scews matchups heavily with?

(We have to assume Halberd + Delfino are better then RC + Brinstar due to RR's post. Or atleast, that's what it seems to be implying, and what logically I conclude at.)

?

z00ted · Jul 24, 2011

I hate when people bring up MLG Statistics, Redhalberd is trying to get the point across that at "top level" Metaknight 95% of the time WILL get a free win on either Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar.

Ban

Metakill · Jul 24, 2011

Don't make this thread a MK pro-ban
This thread is about Brinstar and RC.

--------On topic---------

also... why just MK?
Nick(ZSS) used RC against Ally sometimes
ESAM(Pikachu) used RC against Ally in Pound V
Vinnie(G&W) used Brinstar against Ally in CoT5

RC is anti-CG Counterpick (ICs) and stop the Camping game of Snake, Falco and Diddy... For that 2 things you don't need to use Metaknight...

I just thing that are the only 2 counters for MK.
Delfino isn't good like RC
Frigate ins't good like Brinstar.
That 2 stages (Delfino/Frigate) are so useful for a lot of characters... Why you only attack mk? yes... he's ****ing broken, but the character is broken not the stagelist.

Before I was Snake mainer... And for my opinion.. Brinstar CAN be a Counter against MK, i know.. you'll think "WTF Snake sux at Brinstar" or "what a noob..." But maybe is that the other MKs here sux or don't know how to play the matchup in Brinstar. I think Brinstar is like Halberd, just hold your Utilt fresh and you can have a kill at 90% (idk the % exactly), nades can lost at background and C4 such disappear...

Well is all.. i really can't say anymore... i'm just a Mexican player who really don't know a high/pro level and maybe a little noob xD

ly all <3

Marcbri · Jul 24, 2011

Stop using MLG data lol.

Give me data about top MKs ONLY. Arguing that MK does better in Delfino than in RC because of MLG is just dumb. We don't know who were the MKs that played in Delfino, and who were the ones that played in RC. For example all top MKs get RC banned and go Delfino. On the other side some random player loses with his yoshi and goes RC games 2 with MK because nobody expect it, and loses (lol, how).

With that example what I want to say is: While the MLG data may be useful for some stuff, it isn't to show character dominance in a stage.

Also someone really believes that outside a couple of match-ups Delfino is a better stage than Rainbow for MK? Get some hits and run away, is THAT easy to win in that dumb stage. I love the design of the stage, but it can't be legal in brawl because if the players are playing to win, every game there will end in a timeout.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Jul 24, 2011

Why ignore that data though? That data with match-up slips gave a lot more info than the word to mouth people give a lot regarding than people throwing out, "Easy time out stage"

To change something requires convincing people to change if that is your goal. Data and knowing what the counter argument will be helps.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Jul 24, 2011

RedHalberd said:
Both of these stages are literally just gimmicks to give Metaknight free wins. Almost nobody else uses them. You can argue that they help other characters, but there are PLENTY of stages that help those characters.

Where does G&W go? Where does Wario go? Where do Jiggs, Ness, and Link go?

And the characters that these stages help still get ***** by Metaknight on these stages anyway.

So?

Nobody likes watching Metaknight win on either of these stages.

Nobody likes playing against Metaknight on either of these stages.

Nobody with half a brain cares about this argument.

The worst part about these stages is that you get free timeouts that no sort of ledgegrab rule can mitigate. I've timed people out with less than 15 ledgegrabs on both stages. I got a stock lead on Gnes at WHOBO and literally just ran away until the timer was up. I had like 17 ledgegrabs or something.

That's nice? Maybe he should've gotten better?

Give me a reason why these stages should be legal...

Give me a reason they shouldn't. MK does not have an "auto-win" on either stage. Even if you claim that, can you back it up? Brinstar I can see, but RC? Let's see some high-level matches where MK completely dominates the other character. Most of what I see involves top players going more or less even. Come on, I'm waiting.

Blacknight99923 said:
RC and brinstar shouldn't be legal with or without metaknight in my honest opinion

Why not? What is even remotely broken on either stage without MK?

SaveMeJebus said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-X9tHOYXZU&t=1m15s

The only stage in the game that forces you into a recovery like situation

And look at how ridiculously easy it is for Brood, with a character who sucks in such situations, to deal with it. Your argument holds no water. Every character in the game can navigate RC with absolutely no trouble unless the opponent pressures them.

Blacknight99923 said:
I see metaknights lose on delphino at high level play relatively frequently, I have yet to see a metkanight lose on rainbow or brinstar when they play the stage correctly.

I have yet to see two players of almost equivalent level go to RC with two different characters and have one stomped into the dust in the way so avidly described by detractors. Come on, it happens so often, there's gotta be some high-level vids.

Arcansi said:
1. Why exactly is MLG relevant at this point? Do we not have people collecting data past MLG, and if not, why not?

It's more or less complete data from some of the largest recent tournaments. That's why it's relevant. Is there genesis matchslip data? Do we have compiled data on the results from CoT5? We have almost no real data beyond the MLG matchslip data, so we go on that for a lot of our info.

2. If I can assume the people in this thread aren't talking BS, why is it acceptable for metaknight to have 4 stages that he basically scews matchups heavily with?

Why is it acceptable for ICs to have one? Why is it acceptable for Falco to have two? Why wouldn't it be acceptable? Stages will always screw with matchups. That's because a matchup in smash is built up of not just character-character, but character-character-stage. A more reasonable matchup chart would be 3-dimensional and make one field be character x vs character y on stage z. It's pretty simple, really: stages and characters both influence a matchup. This complaint is utterly invalid, as it applies to literally every stage in the game.

~ Gheb ~ · Jul 24, 2011

Brinstar should be banned, simple as that. It's not even as much about MK being too strong on it than about the stage just being fundamentally broken.

In case of RC, I guess it's a borderline case. I've heard no concrete argument yet on *what* exactly is broken on that stage. Adding a second stage ban is a good compromise solution to this because RC probably has too much value as a CP regardless of MK. Personally, I think that banning Brinstar is enough but adding a second stage ban [and allow some other stages with it] would probably the ideal solution - cut the crap out of the stage list and still promote the diversity of stages. You just have to be reasonable and face the facts when a stage is broken in the way Brinstar is.

Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar should both be banned

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