Grab Option Select (Smash Attack Option Select Added)

SaveMeJebus · Jul 29, 2011

walk up to your opponent, shield and hit the c-stick back. If your opponent attacks your shield, you will throw out a grab. If he doesn't, you will roll back. You can also roll into your opponent by shielding and pressing c-stick forward but your control stick has to be in the neutral position for that one to work. Works against tilt spammers.

NO-IDea · Jul 29, 2011

Or you buffer the roll and get hit in the 3 frame start-up.

It would be better to attempt perfect shielding and rely on prediction/reaction than to rely on buffering in your scenario.

SaveMeJebus · Jul 29, 2011

NO-IDea said:
Or you buffer the roll and get hit in the 3 frame start-up.

It would be better to attempt perfect shielding and rely on prediction/reaction than to rely on buffering in your scenario.

Haven't tested it but by predicting and perfect shielding, there is always a chance that the opponent might trow out a grab instead of an attack.

DeLux · Jul 29, 2011

There are so many things wrong with this OP, I don't know where to start

SaveMeJebus · Jul 29, 2011

DeLux said:
There are so many things wrong with this OP, I don't know where to start

Start with the biggest thing wrong with it.

Tesh · Jul 29, 2011

This is why Jebus is my hero. He is of the same breed as DMG. One day I want to be so good at the game that I can troll nonstop like you.

Jebus I just want you to know, you are my hero and one day I wanna be just like you. You give me hope.

Dekar173 · Jul 29, 2011

I don't think delux has a retort :O

B.A.M. · Jul 30, 2011

@ Tesh: Im pretty sure you troll harder than Jebus.

And I am still waiting of Deluxs retort. the way i see it is you have 3 frames on a roll start up. Which isnt too bad. Then again this is also contingent on the caliber of roll we are describing here. This sounds like itd be pretty **** for MK/ Lucario. Although in MKs scenario itd be another mid range option countered by standing grab ( dash attack, dash grab, and dash shield all get beat by the majority of the cast by simply grabbing)

However in the scenario you are describing Jebus, someone using their tilts properly would not being using it at the range you could Shield in. They should be filling up the space between you and your dash shield range ( ideally near the end range.)

Tesh · Jul 30, 2011

Yea, but like DMG, Jebus is a high level player that takes sets off of some of the best. No matter how dumb his ideas are, people are essentially forced to at least give him the benefit of the doubt.

Also I do alot of rolling, and I approve of this.

Player-1 · Jul 30, 2011

I loled pretty hard when you said jebus was a high level player.

DeLux · Jul 30, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
walk up to your opponent, shield and hit the c-stick back. It your opponent attacks your shield, you will throw out a grab. If he doesn't, you will roll back.

You just gave instructions on how to ISSDI away from someone when in shield. Obviously it's an option select, but if your opponent has any spacing in mind (and I'm guessing they do because you say this works against tilt spammers later in the post), you just actually moved yourself further away from your opponent when in shield. Combine that with the frames of shield push/shield drop > Grab momentum slide you'll be getting while your grab comes out, and unless you're playing DDD your grab just whiffed. There are better ways of abusing ISSDI than this to net a grab.

If you want to roll into your opponent, just hold your attack button and hit the c-stick up after you shield. Works against tilt spammers.

There are better ways to get a desired roll than this through ISSDI trades. I don't think holding attack does anything except remove grab from your options. Holding grab would also remove your ability to shield out of run.

Like if you wanted to roll into your opponent on option select, you would hit the cstick towards them. If they hit your shield, you ISSDI TOWARDS them and then grab. If they don't hit your shield, then you roll into them

tldr - OP is bad

SaveMeJebus · Jul 31, 2011

Every character that throws out a tilt is going to extend their hurt box so the fact that you ISSDI away from them doesn't really matter.

Dnyce · Jul 31, 2011

DeLux said:
There are so many things wrong with this OP, I don't know where to start

^This.

Lol

B.A.M. · Aug 1, 2011

@ Delux. So i was using the shield c stick forward option select and it seemed to have some nice results. I think especially for tether grabbers itd be a pretty good idea to check out. it seemed nice for ZSS in particular due to her top tier f roll, and tether grab. Due to ZSS bane in CQC is shield grab, f rolling behind an opponent allows her to use her awesome tilts effectively and put her 2 frame jab to use. then of course a character like ZSS, who tends to have good grabs and would have a good grab game if it wasnt for the fear of whiffing,this seems to answer a ton of prayers for those mains. I would love to here more for you regarding proper ways to use ISSDI.

Deathfox30 · Aug 1, 2011

Jab is frame 1

B.A.M. · Aug 1, 2011

no its frame 2 because im including the input. thank you very much.

C.J. · Aug 1, 2011

B.A.M. said:
no its frame 2 because im including the input. thank you very much.

The move is still frame one. If I stand still for 8 frames and then input the jab, it's not frame 10 all of a sudden, lol

Also, just buffer it? It's not hard to do.

B.A.M. · Aug 1, 2011

no CJ thats stupid. because you havent input anything. wtf is wrong with you. how does that make sense?

EDIT:

Let me break it down for you since you seem to be confused. whatever you do there is a starting input the game reads. someppl declare that frame one. that is what im referring to. Why the hell you would add the standing frames when you arent inputting anything? it doesnt apply to the move. because for every action there has to be an input read by the game before it occurs. For someone who attempts to be knowledgeable about this game, that is really stupid. Not that you didnt know, because theres tons of things as people we dont know. The fact that you try to mock me with some dumb logic. THAT is stupid. read what i said first and dont be so quick to retort. Although Ill go ahead and help your argument. In the case of buffering, the input frame coincides with the cool down frame ergo the jab would come out 1 frame after whatever input was finished.

SaveMeJebus · Aug 1, 2011

I was testing out the forward roll and it doesn't work since holding the attack button cancels your grab. The back roll works and it still pushes you forward as you throw out the grab. you can test it out in the Mario bros stage with the turtles and crabs.

DeLux · Aug 1, 2011

Hitting back on the cstick doesn't push you forward. It would input one cstick value (approx .72 of a full control stick) of ISSDI in the direction of the cstick. Testing on Mario Bros is a horrible way to test it.

And I called it on holding attack not helping lol. Give me and the lab a week to finish a video and I can go into how this all works.

Player-1 · Aug 1, 2011

Jebus is clearly more knowledgeable than the Director of the Smash Lab

B.A.M. · Aug 1, 2011

Jebus c stick forward works. Ive been using that one for a bit. You must be holding forward on the control stick or something. I can already tell you some character benefit from this option select with c-stick forward.

@ Delux: I think hes talking about the initial dash shield slide propelling him forward. At least I hope he is. Also Delux is there any way possible this can be done with spotdodge? Cstick down will never grab the way im doing it. Wish there was a way to set that up. thatd be cool.

Ghostbone · Aug 2, 2011

B.A.M. said:
no CJ thats stupid. because you havent input anything. wtf is wrong with you. how does that make sense?

EDIT:

Let me break it down for you since you seem to be confused. whatever you do there is a starting input the game reads. someppl declare that frame one. that is what im referring to. Why the hell you would add the standing frames when you arent inputting anything? it doesnt apply to the move. because for every action there has to be an input read by the game before it occurs. For someone who attempts to be knowledgeable about this game, that is really stupid. Not that you didnt know, because theres tons of things as people we dont know. The fact that you try to mock me with some dumb logic. THAT is stupid. read what i said first and dont be so quick to retort. Although Ill go ahead and help your argument. In the case of buffering, the input frame coincides with the cool down frame ergo the jab would come out 1 frame after whatever input was finished.

What? So you're just going to go against the standard the smash community has set for frame data?

It comes out on frame 1, if you buffer it out of a grab-release or something, the hitbox will be out on the first frame after it ends.
Which is why she can combo into it from a grounded grab-release.

And you expect not to be called out on that?

Vinylic. · Aug 3, 2011

If i had your brains i'd understand what you're talking about.
Explain further.

B.A.M. · Aug 3, 2011

@ ghoststandard it wasn't always by that standard. We also don't have a universal frame data setup at all. So don't tell me I am going against the community when some people still go by frame data with that taken into account. Death fox said its frame 1 and I am explaining why I stated it as frame 2. Its a frame 1 action, but every move needs a frame 1 input whether its in the buffer window or not. You stated exactly what I just said in your post.you didn't even read what I said to CJ. You said ' when buffer a grab release the jab comes out 1 frame after the move ends.' I said when you buffer jab out of any input, the jab comes out 1 frame after.' We said the same thing, and you even quoted me. Why are you arguing? if someone is standing there doing nothing then they want to jab it will take two frames. This is what I'm referring to in my scenario.

Iono what you are arguing for. And shut the hell up about a frame data standard; we don't even have unified frame data. Some frame data in character boards still adds the extra frame. Which is reasonable because unless a move is buffered, that data makes sense. This is not even what the thread is about for one thing, secondly is you've been here all that long, what I'm saying shouldn't be all that crazy.

EDIT: Just saw your join date. Thats why it sounds so bizarre to you.

Go banter with someone else. People love to assert themselves for no reason.Deathfox is the only one who made a reasonable statement about the jab. What you and CJ havent said anything that hasn't been already stated by myself.

Conviction · Aug 3, 2011

Frame 0 is supposed to be the input of the move. It comes out on frame 1. From reading what you said, I would believe ZSS's jab has a start-up lag of one 1 frame, but it doesn't.

I think that's what they are saying.

B.A.M. · Aug 3, 2011

Iblis you are absolutely right. But frame 0 is still an actual frame, which is what I'm trying to say. I have no qualms stating ZSS jab frame 1. Its just stupid CJ somehow believes me calling frame 0 an actual frame means I should count every standing frame then ghostbone provides the same evidence that's in his OWN POST VIA MY QUOTE. That's just lol to me. I've said numerous of times jab is a frame 1 action.

In anycase I want to hear about the option select not about frame semantics. xiblisx hows fox's roll. What could he get out of this?

@ delux do we have an official date for these things? Im excited to see what smash labs has found.

Conviction · Aug 3, 2011

Saves the confusion I guess.

Also I usually refrain from rolling so, idk, LOL. I'm just lurking to see what good comes out of this. I can't play competitively atm anymore anyways, but when I can I don't want to fall behind.

B.A.M. · Aug 3, 2011

I feel you on that.

Vinylic. · Aug 3, 2011

I feel that. Thank you for saving my time not being confused. Frames are hard. Including the falling rate.

DeLux · Aug 3, 2011

The release date is going to be after 8/8 for a couple reasons:

My internet at my new place doesn't start until then

I wrote the thread so I figure I'd have to field most of the questions for it

The video isn't made yet so I'm stalling for time =]

Ghostbone · Aug 4, 2011

B.A.M. said:
@ ghoststandard it wasn't always by that standard. We also don't have a universal frame data setup at all.

We might not have a universal frame data thread or anything, but having the input be frame 0 is definitely the standard, and it's been that way since melee.

So don't tell me I am going against the community when some people still go by frame data with that taken into account. Death fox said its frame 1 and I am explaining why I stated it as frame 2. Its a frame 1 action, but every move needs a frame 1 input whether its in the buffer window or not.

The majority would go by ZSS's jab being frame 1, because that makes way more sense than it being frame 2.
If the hitbox came out on frame 2, the move would have 1 frame of start-up lag, but it doesn't, the hitbox is out on the first frame that the move begins.

You stated exactly what I just said in your post.you didn't even read what I said to CJ. You said ' when buffer a grab release the jab comes out 1 frame after the move ends.' I said when you buffer jab out of any input, the jab comes out 1 frame after.' We said the same thing, and you even quoted me.

So you're saying, her jab comes out on frame 2, but it doesn't? Not making much sense there, it's like you're purposely trying to confuse people.

Why are you arguing? if someone is standing there doing nothing then they want to jab it will take two frames. This is what I'm referring to in my scenario.

No it won't, it will come out on the first frame possible. I press A on the current frame, it will come out next frame, frame 1.

Iono what you are arguing for. And shut the hell up about a frame data standard; we don't even have unified frame data. Some frame data in character boards still adds the extra frame. Which is reasonable because unless a move is buffered, that data makes sense. This is not even what the thread is about for one thing, secondly is you've been here all that long, what I'm saying shouldn't be all that crazy.

Again, you're making things more complicated than they need to be, the hitbox is out on the first frame of the move, why say that it's frame 2.

EDIT: Just saw your join date. Thats why it sounds so bizarre to you.

lol you're funny.

Go banter with someone else. People love to assert themselves for no reason.Deathfox is the only one who made a reasonable statement about the jab. What you and CJ havent said anything that hasn't been already stated by myself.

You saying that ZSS' jab comes out on frame 2 has no point, and only serves to confuse people, so I do have a reason.

B.A.M. · Aug 4, 2011

ghostbone..... i said theres an input frame which is u pressing A and the move is a 1 frame action. Secondly Im not making fun of your join date; im being serious. Before you were here there were people who added the input frame and there others who didnt. Thirdly as you said you would press A and the game would read it in one frame, 1 frame after you pushed A the jab would come out. like you said the jab would come out on the next frame. that frame you had to push the button and the frame the jab comes out. This is really a pointless argument, you are saying exactly what Ive been saying. If you want to continue to debate this you can PM me. This is really unnecessary. I also already said I would reference it as a frame 1 jab ( which is making input frame, frame 0). I really dont know what you are fighting for at this point.

And I didnt say that ZSS jab coming out frame 2 has no point. i stated numerous times that its a frame 1 action, and that im counting the input frame. In your post its evident that what Im saying is going completely over your head. You are saying the exact same things I have said. So at this point, Ill just concede lol.

EDIT: Im going to try one more time to explain this. As you stated you would press A to jab and the jab would come out the next frame right? So you agree that you pressing A is on a different frame than when the jab comes out, correct? Do you understand that you have to press A in order to jab on the next frame? And unless it is done during a buffer window, that frame in which you press the button will take up a frame? So if you press A on a frame, then on the next frame the jab comes out how many frames is that? the jab comes out on a frame and you press a on the previous frame. thats 2 frames. 1 for the action, another for the input when you are in neutral doing nothing. If this still doesnt make sense to you then its okay. As I said in my previous post I am going to reference the jab as frame 1. This is my last post about this. Theres far more meaningful things to discuss than this misconception.

@Delux: Cant wait for you vid man. Im excited. Are the things you found universal Delux? Just curious. Its okay if that cannot be answered lol.

Ghostbone · Aug 4, 2011

B.A.M. said:
And I didnt say that ZSS jab coming out frame 2 has no point. i stated numerous times that its a frame 1 action, and that im counting the input frame. In your post its evident that what Im saying is going completely over your head. You are saying the exact same things I have said. So at this point, Ill just concede lol.

Well I'm just trying to say the input frame shouldn't be counted, as that's not part of the move.

Edit: Oh and I must have misunderstood part of your previous post or something, soz.

B.A.M. · Aug 4, 2011

i understand what you are saying ghostbone. but it IS a frame being used and if you arent buffering that frame HAS to be used. I know you are saying it shouldnt be counted. Just because you say it shouldnt be counted doesnt mean it just disappears. It still exist. i have to waste a frame inputting A before jab comes out. Thats just fact. I understand the confusion, but what i dont understand why you are going all out when we are stating the same thing and im telling you that back in the day this logical progression was used. Im not just pulling it out of my ***. And in the case of non buffering it has legitimacy which why i said the input frame can coincide with the cooldown of an action, mean the next frame after an action finishes it will come out. And I also said I understand the confusion because its an old school of thought I suppose so Id state its frame 1.
We're on the same page bro lol.

Lets talk about the topic at hand, Im really intrigued about this Option Select as I have been using this Shield+ c-stick forward one with a few characters with interesting results.

Ghostbone · Aug 4, 2011

B.A.M. said:
i understand what you are saying ghostbone. but it IS a frame being used and if you arent buffering that frame HAS to be used. I know you are saying it shouldnt be counted. Just because you say it shouldnt be counted doesnt mean it just disappears. It still exist. i have to waste a frame inputting A before jab comes out. Thats just fact. I understand the confusion, but what i dont understand why you are going all out when we are stating the same thing and im telling you that back in the day this logical progression was used. Im not just pulling it out of my ***. And in the case of non buffering it has legitimacy which why i said the input frame can coincide with the cooldown of an action, mean the next frame after an action finishes it will come out. And I also said I understand the confusion because its an old school of thought I suppose so Id state its frame 1.
We're on the same page bro lol.

Mm, ok yea.

Lets talk about the topic at hand, Im really intrigued about this Option Select as I have been using this Shield+ c-stick forward one with a few characters with interesting results.

It should be good for characters with fast forward rolls I guess, MK and ZSS come to mind. I'll try it out at a tourney this weekend. So the idea is just to do a running shield and c-stick forward?

B.A.M. · Aug 4, 2011

yeah. dont how the control stick forward though. otherwise ull just grab regardless of what happens. you can do it in neutral too. Remember that it also ISSDI toward your opponent when you grab, meaning you can grab from a larger range than normal.

SaveMeJebus · Oct 28, 2011

So has the video for this been released yet?

salaboB · Oct 28, 2011

B.A.M. said:
i understand what you are saying ghostbone. but it IS a frame being used and if you arent buffering that frame HAS to be used.

You should say "Frame 1" because there's a way to avoid the input lag -- buffering. So it greatly simplifies things if your reader knows it's +1 frame from when the attack begins. They can handle adding 1 frame for input if it's not a buffered action.

Alternatively, to actually be clear you'd have to say something like "it's out on frame 2 unless you buffer then it's frame 1". That just gets awkward fast.

B.A.M. · Nov 4, 2011

this topic was cleared up awhile ago. Please check the dates for posts before bringing up pointless threads. I appreciate the help though!

Grab Option Select (Smash Attack Option Select Added)

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