Falco Matchup Thread # 17: Sonic

In this thread, post any contribution you have regarding the Sonic matchup.

Keep these in mind when posting:
- What do we have against him?
- What to watch out for?
- Certain do's & don'ts
- Any additional information or data necessary.

Yes i really dont like this MU.I could use the tips :D

-Dthrow: Hold down on the control stick (DI sown) and tech. You can punish him for using it by teching. I'm not privy to the specifics of what you can punish him with, but jab will work every time.
-Uthrow: This is actually a kill option at higher percents mostly around.. 180% I believe. Either way, be wary of grabs at those near-200% percentages.
-If you start teching consistently with Dthrow, Sonic will use Uthrow more often to chase you in the air with spring or aerials. DI uthrow to the side as much as you can. This forces sonic to have to chase your DI with some running before using the spring.
-You can generally trade hits with sonic in the air by using Nair/Bair/Dair.
-Edgeguard sonic by staying near the ledge and waiting for what sonic will do. You can hit him out of most of his recovery options using Bair by waiting on the ledge

Lasers are useful in this match-up, but you have to be wary of Sonic's position. Midrange is still dangerous due to running speed. Dash attack will get under you very well or he can just run in and shield grab. SHL is probably preferred in this match-up over SHDL most of the time for that very reason.

You really have to be on the move in this match-up, never staying put in one place at a time for too long. It keeps you safe, but it also throws off Sonic's spacing. A number of his approaches and moves require precise aim to pull it off successfully. Otherwise, those missed moves that fail to hit you put him in enough lag to punish. Speaking of which, Bair/Dash attack are very good punishes for those misses. Dash attack for it's speed and distance it covers, Bair for it's duration in combination with Falco's jumping height.

Another thing is to not act hastily after being hit. Sonic has the ability to follow up and punish airdodges after knockback, or momentum canceling moves.

I find it hard to give this match-up an exact number. Sonic has every ability to get around falco and keep up the chase after a hit.This makes me believe it's even-ish However, Sonic's inability to land KO moves along with almost all of his attacks being stoppable or end in trades makes me think Falco has an advantage.

Stick with neutrals for counterpicks. Sonic can do well with really any stage and picking RC simply because you think it might "slow him" down isn't very true. He'll just have other tricks up his spiky hairdo to pull out on you.

The correct way to respond to dthrow (except maybe at low percents) is to DI *up* and airdodge. Unless of course your timing is good, then you can tech it properly.

don't adjust your spacing unless he adjusts. that's my approach to this MU

sonic's dash + spindash loses to or clashes with a lot of things. he gets beat in frames when it comes to the boxing situation, too. his dash shield is super good though so don't neglect grab or cross up dash attack. overall you should think about autocancel dair (both towards and retreating), jab and nair to counter

careful about side b'ing. he can punish that pretty well

don't worry about being grabbed on landing too much. allow the situation to be reset - sonic kills off of juggles, yes, but those require 2-3 reads on his part usually whereas you can be sure of dying if you panic on landing

Jab >








-2













afk

InferiorityComplex said:

The correct way to respond to dthrow (except maybe at low percents) is to DI *up* and airdodge. Unless of course your timing is good, then you can tech it properly.

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Didn't know that. Does that actually allow for a proper punish? If so, sux doing it the hard way the whole time

Maybe I misspoke.

You know how it smacks you into the ground right as Sonic releases? You can tech that. For most characters, doing so is the best way to react to dthrow--we have 0 or disadvantage on every character except (IIRC) ROB. I'm not sure what it is on Falco, but you can probably get a jab out of it at least.

However, the timing is pretty strict (or I just suck, either way). If you can't get the timing on teching it down, your next best bet is to airdodge out before you hit the ground. Only if you can't do THAT do you try to tech the ground, which sets Sonic up for a techchase but meh.

Better?

Of course, as soon as you tech dthrow once, that Sonic probably never try it again on you (we generally prefer uthrow) soooooo....

-Yeah, I have issues with teching it at times. But since you can buffer techs in brawl, it shouldn't be anything near impossible to get down consistently. Actually, a couple of characters you can get extra practice on. DDD and Wolf's Dthrow. Although, they have advantages out of them :/

-Most sonic's I have played usually try multiple times to see if you are pretty consistent at doing it. If you are, Uthrow is used next. But to me, Uthrow isn't really much better than Dthrow. DI in front of Sonic and you can cover your landing with Bair at low percents because sonic's aerials would trade or get beaten out by Falco's Bair. The only thing he can really do is try to punish your landing. At high percents its sort of the same thing, you know Sonic is going to try to follow you in the air with the spring, so same result. Bair him out of it (or aerials) or at worst you'll trade hits.

-I recall some thread showing the advantages Sonic had over characters, most characters could jab sonic, but some sonic had an advantage. I think jiggs couldn't tech at all or something.

But I'm interested in trying out that DI up and airdodge. Interested in seeing if it might be better depending at the time. Like Dthrow at the ledge cannot be teched at all I believe.

In certain situations, is the reflector a good idea in this MU to mess up Sonic's spacing?

What advantage does it yield over an ftilt in this MU?

Falco's Bair beats everything Sonic has, just saying.

sk83rty said:

In certain situations, is the reflector a good idea in this MU to mess up Sonic's spacing?

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-I've never tried it before, but I think you can reflect a falling spring and it becomes 'yours' much like when you reflect pika DownB, snake's mortar, rob's gyro, or diddy's bananas on the ground. But there is no application for that as you can probably presume in singles.
-Anyway, I cannot think of many situations that it could be used in. At least duplicated situations that might happen often. With it's large range and priority, you can use it to try to stop those 'spindash'? approaches on the ground. It's easier to time with rather than trying to space that approach with some other move. Outside of that just see where ever you can get away with using an extremly laggy move that is fast, low hitstun, and long range (such as hitting through walls).

Ryker said:

What advantage does it yield over an ftilt in this MU?

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None other than longer range and best possible priority the game has to offer.

1PokeMastr said:

Falco's Bair beats everything Sonic has, just saying.

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It's good, but still beaten by being missed time or miss spaced.

this MU is all about whos got the better mindgames, especially when it comes to killing. We have the advantage ofc due to the chain grab, but it must be buffered or else Sonic will up b out of it. Dont let Sonics gimmicks get to you, hes gotta approach YOU, youre the one with the gun lol. Imo Shugo would probably be the best person to ask for advice on this discussion, seeing as he uses Falco and Sonic both at high level.

Most important thing to know is jab and lasers shut down spin dash. Remember his 2 best kill moves are fsmash and backair, so when you get to kill percent, play to avoid those two and you'll live a lot longer and not be getting killed until 150+, probably even closer to 200.

M@v said:

Most important thing to know is jab and lasers shut down spin dash. Remember his 2 best kill moves are fsmash and backair, so when you get to kill percent, play to avoid those two and you'll live a lot longer and not be getting killed until 150+, probably even closer to 200.

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I know this should be automatic, but that means don't go phantasming into FSmashes.

55:45 Falco imo

I think its 6:4 or better if you know the matchup, but it wouldn't surprise me if most Falco players don't.

It's probably 6:4, yeah. BO5 maybe closer to 55:45

Yeah, pretty much the only two mid tier character Falco doesn't solidly beat are sheik and fox, and those are both even mus imo.


(Also I dont feel fox is mid tier)

Laser does NOT shut down spin dash. where did that come from? Sonic has tons of movement options coming from spin dash that can get around and punish Falco's lasers. You have to treat spin dash like nado; theres quite a bit of things that can beat it, but its dependent on the position and how its used. Think of it this way; dash attack is usually good vs Falco because it allows you from a good distance to close the gap and hit Falco as he Lasers. Spin Dash is like a super version in this regard. Spin dash also stop phantasms in their tracks, and is awesome to use when Falco is recovering and then punish his RCO lag. Falco demolishes us in boxing situations, however at mid range we have very solid options to get in. Jab can stop spin dash head on but that could mean a spring, spinshot bair, spin dash shield cancel> dash in, etc. We can land camp Falco with side b; it will go through EVERY single one of his aerials. We also have the ability, due to our speed, to stand a far enough distance to punish phantasms onto the stage AND run in to edgehog. This helps us a ton, as it can become a coinflip that gives sonic a potential kill.

ASC (Aerial Spin Charge) is also a Godsend in this MU for Sonic, because it allows us to really put on some shield pressure. One well placed ASCSC>aerial can shield poke and leave you with a low shield (obviously).Once that is done we can utilize spin dash to punish your low shield or another escape option. IF THE SONIC PLAYS IT RIGHT IT WONT BE AN AUTO WIN. However, your aerials do shut down SC approaches. The best thing for a Falco is to stay either far or very near so they can react. In between Sonic can dictate the match with his capability to punish lasers from a much farther distance then any other character, and once he gets you in the air he can out range your dair with uair or land camp with side b, which are very potent once Falco is in the air.

I used to think Falco flat out destroys Sonic, however with some playing with DEHF's, Tyrant's, and DSF's Falco I do believe this MU is closer than I initially thought. Lasers are only strong against Sonics constantly spinning straight towards you. Lasering is definitely a liability if a Sonic plays it properly. I do believe this is a 55:45 after playing with the stated players.


EDIT: one thing I forgot, Falco mains, you can edgeguard the living hell out of us in some situations. Your bair and dair go through a ton of things we can throw at you. In my opinion, in order for Falco to win he has to edgeguard properly and make us hurt when we get stuck in boxing situations. And above all else Laser when appropriate!

^What he said

Oh and one last thing that is one of the most important. If you have a good reaction speed. you can just grab us out of a ton of our spin dash options. grab is so beast vs spindashing and you can cover it with a quick jab easily. If you have reaction speed then you can own in that manner.

So is there anything left to cover on this matchup? Most would agree it's 55:45, 60:40 being the WORST. It'd be good to get the Matchup threads rolling.

B.A.M. said:

ASC (Aerial Spin Charge) However, your aerials do shut down SC approaches. The best thing for a Falco is to stay either far or very near so they can react. In between Sonic can dictate the match with his capability to punish lasers from a much farther distance then any other character, and once he gets you in the air he can out range your dair with uair or land camp with side b, which are very potent once Falco is in the air.

EDIT: one thing I forgot, Falco mains, you can edgeguard the living hell out of us in some situations. Your bair and dair go through a ton of things we can throw at you. In my opinion, in order for Falco to win he has to edgeguard properly and make us hurt when we get stuck in boxing situations. And above all else Laser when appropriate!

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^ pretty much that
ive found the staying far away or very close very effective against sonic with mostly any character
as well as staying in the air since sonic cant really punish air dodges while in spin dash sep for neutral B but even then it wont be that effective since falco is pretty agile
although i dont think sonic can punish lasers as easily as you think
but the ASC is a great way to add pressure and forces falco to get far if he cant stop it

mu is 6:4 imo but i can see how it could b 55:45 just cause ive played sonic vs falco before and ive never thought of it being bad but then again most of the falcos didnt play it right

sorry my **** looks really confusing to read