Should anti-trip be a choice for tourney sets?

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

Under the Unity ruleset- anti-trip, as a game-changing mechanic, is absolutely NOT allowed.

Why? What is the logic behind this? Why can't anti-trip be "optional" instead of never allowed? What benefit comes from this?

Nidtendofreak · Aug 24, 2011

It's altering the game mechanics of the game. If you alter the mechanics, it's no longer the same game.

At least, that's what I assume the answer is. Brawl has random tripping, it's a part of the game. Accept it, move on.

Jebu-95 · Aug 24, 2011

Interesting question. I've been thinking about the same thing recently.
I think that tripping is a part of the game, and if you turn it off, then you are not playing anymore "Super Smash Brothers. Brawl" since the game suddenly changes to "SSBB Without random tripping". Having the code on for all the consoles at a tournament would also be too much trouble and would probably never happen.

I was recently, a week ago at a tournament where 1 of the Wiis had the No Random Tripping code on. I played about half of my sets on that TV. I barely noticed any change and I completely forgot that I was playing a game without tripping. Everyone else also seemed to be cool with this and nobody really cared much if it was on or not since it VERY raraly affects the outcome of matches.

M@v · Aug 24, 2011

Nidtendofreak said:
It's altering the game mechanics of the game. If you alter the mechanics, it's no longer the same game.

At least, that's what I assume the answer is. Brawl has random tripping, it's a part of the game. Accept it, move on.

At the same time, I could argue brawl makes you go to sudden death if a match ends with stocks tied. Thats altering the mechanics of the game.

SaveMeJebus · Aug 24, 2011

M@v said:
At the same time, I could argue brawl makes you go to sudden death if a match ends with stocks tied. Thats altering the mechanics of the game.

Yeah, but you don't need to put in some kind of code to get rid of that

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
Yeah, but you don't need to put in some kind of code to get rid of that

You don't need to put in a code, whoever owns the wii does, and it wouldn't be required, it would be optional.

Under the current unity ruleset, anti-trip is absolutely not allowed.

So now, instead of being a scrub, give me an actual justification aside from "you have to hack a wii to do it!"

Supreme Dirt · Aug 24, 2011

It changes the game we're playing.

SaveMeJebus · Aug 24, 2011

I don't think there is really anything wrong with it as long as players aren't forced to play on that set up. I think if players agree to it, they should be able to play a match how ever the hell they want including with items.

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

Supreme Dirt said:
It changes the game we're playing.

Infinite replay changes the game we're playing, but it's allowed.

Next awful?

Edit: Jebus- would you EVER actually tell someone that you DID NOT want to play on an anti-trip wii?

rPSIvysaur · Aug 24, 2011

Dekar173 said:
You don't need to put in a code, whoever owns the wii does, and it wouldn't be required, it would be optional.

Under the current unity ruleset, anti-trip is absolutely not allowed.

So now, instead of being a scrub, give me an actual justification aside from "you have to hack a wii to do it!"

The Justification does not come from game balance in any way. If you justify the code based on how it affects the outcomes to remove a variable, you might as well consider it a different game. At that point what's the difference between removing some of the knockback from MK's shuttle loop and removing tripping? It's removing a mechanic that most of us deem to make the game less competitive.

The real reason why it is absolutely not allowed is because it puts a large strain on the TO make sure the no tripping code is on all the Wii set-ups and maintain them throughout the tournament (often times cords will come out and wiis will be reset) This is rather unacceptable at much larger events.

deepseadiva · Aug 24, 2011

Dekar173 said:
Edit: Jebus- would you EVER actually tell someone that you DID NOT want to play on an anti-trip wii?

As a Peach player, yes, haha.

SaveMeJebus · Aug 24, 2011

Dekar173 said:
Infinite replay changes the game we're playing, but it's allowed.

Next awful?

Edit: Jebus- would you EVER actually tell someone that you DID NOT want to play on an anti-trip wii?

Falln (a Socal Kirby main) told me that it is almost impossible to win the Olimar MU without trips. It definitely changes MUs especially when you have grounded characters fighting aerial characters.

Ghostbone · Aug 24, 2011

I'd start dash dancing with no tripping.
True facts.
/If two players agree to it then it's fine I guess

AlphaZealot · Aug 24, 2011

We argued about this quite a bit, and the end thinking is that condoning the trip hack steps our foot in territory that should likely be stayed away from. The line is already getting blurred with texture and music hacks, as well as infinite replays, but those hacks are within the boundaries of being cosmetic and not actually effecting the physics of the game. If you start to allow hacks that effect the physics of the game, you could potentially be opening a pandora's box.

As an aside, having the rule expressly against tripping also saves some hassle. I remember back at Pound 4 me and Y.b.M. were suppose to play Ninjalink's team. NL has had occasionally used Ice Climbers, and in addition to that Kirby is mostly an aerial character and my movement was largely with dribbling, so tripping would only minimally effect our team. To shorten the story, we had to insist with NL not to play on his trip-less Wii and had to justify our cause not to play on it and wasted a good 5-10 minutes arguing before we could even sit down for the match to start. At Pound 4 hacked Wii's could be requested not to be played on, but even though the rule was in our favor it was still a headache and caused a waste of time.

Zankoku · Aug 24, 2011

Moved to Metagame & Ruleset Discussion

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

RocketPSIence said:
The Justification does not come from game balance in any way. If you justify the code based on how it affects the outcomes to remove a variable, you might as well consider it a different game. At that point what's the difference between removing some of the knockback from MK's shuttle loop and removing tripping? It's removing a mechanic that most of us deem to make the game less competitive.

Metaknight's shuttle loop hits you because he uses the move on purpose. Have you ever inputted a dash, actually meaning to trip?

The real reason why it is absolutely not allowed is because it puts a large strain on the TO make sure the no tripping code is on all the Wii set-ups and maintain them throughout the tournament (often times cords will come out and wiis will be reset) This is rather unacceptable at much larger events.

If it is optional, it isn't on all of the wiis. It should be up to the players whether they want to play on an anti-trip wii, or not. One does and another doesn't? Rock paper scissors, we use it for plenty of other outcomes why not this?

Answers in red.

edit- OR IM BAD?!

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Aug 24, 2011

Actually, I do not think it would be too difficult to arrange to have all wiis set-up with no tripping.

The people working on Project M released a package of their hacks what allows you to upload without the need of riivolution or homebrew installed. This makes me think it's possible to do this. All you have to do is abuse the stage builder to load the gecko OS menu. From there, gecko OS runs the codes for no tripping and any other tournament viable hacks like infinite replay.

Someone could do the same thing that project M did. Release a pack that could be placed into an SD card, then run the hacks through the stage builder rather than having to load homebrew/riivolution. Afterwards when the SD card is removed, the wii wouldn't have any traces of being hacked for nothing being installed on it. The only difficult thing is procuring the SD cards, putting the codes on them, and making sure all stages are removed from the wii and SD card (smashstack method was used in the P:M pack I believe).

The amount of space need to make that pack work on the SD card I think is only about 100 mb. A 256 MB SD card these days should be dirt cheap if you look in the right place. I think something like maybe a dollar a piece. Before the tournament you simply tell people to erase or move the stages out of their wii storage. Come tourney day, the TO distributes the SD cards and you have instant tournament able hacks ready.

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

ghostbone said:
I'd start dash dancing with no tripping.
True facts.
/If two players agree to it then it's fine I guess

A very good option that is punished on a vanilla set-up. Why punish someone for being better at the game? Why leave it up to complete chance?

Ghostbone · Aug 24, 2011

Dekar173 said:
If it is optional, it isn't on all of the wiis. It should be up to the players whether they want to play on an anti-trip wii, or not. One does and another doesn't? Rock paper scissors, we use it for plenty of other outcomes why not this?

WHAT? So you're going to force people to play a hacked game? If one person wants to play the actual game then why force them to play a hacked game just because the other player wants to?

A very good option that is punished on a vanilla set-up. Why punish someone for being better at the game? Why leave it up to complete chance?

It's not being better at the game when the game doesn't allow you to do it...
Should we make G&W's hammer also always 9? Otherwise we're obviously punishing players for being good at the game.

/lol edits

Unless the tournament is a strictly "No random tripping from a run-Brawl" tournament, I strongly disagree that players should ever have to play on a wii without tripping unless they agree to.

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

ghostbone said:
WHAT? So you're going to force people to play a hacked game? If one person wants to play the actual game then why force them to play a hacked game just because the other player wants to?

Why force a player to be the lower port against a Snake player? Why force team A to get ports 2 and 3 when they wanted 1 and 4?

It's not being better at the game when the game doesn't allow you to do it...
Should we make G&W's hammer also always 9? Otherwise we're obviously punishing players for being good at the game.

G&W players purposefully initiate the sideB with the intention of getting a 9. I've never met someone who would dash at, or away from, their opponent with the intention of prat falling.

/lol edits

Unless the tournament is a strictly "No random tripping from a run-Brawl" tournament, I strongly disagree that players should ever have to play on a wii without tripping unless they agree to.

This is where we disagree. Nintendo has forsaken us as a competitive community, why the **** should we care whether wiis are hacked or not? We're here to hold competitions and see the better player win- if you trip into a Snake fsmash, it isn't really you being worse than them, is it? You're just unlucky, whereas they're lucky.

Red dead red bed head.

Ghostbone · Aug 24, 2011

Ports are part of the game, no tripping isn't.

If you want a game that's better competitively go play BBrawl, or possibly P:M when it comes out.
As much as we might dislike some of the games aspects, we just have to deal with them.

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

ghostbone said:
Ports are part of the game, no tripping isn't.

If you want a game that's better competitively go play BBrawl, or possibly P:M when it comes out.
As much as we might dislike some of the games aspects, we just have to deal with them.

Um... no? We don't? The Brawl Unity ruleset is something imposed upon people, and it is a recommended ruleset. There's nothing stopping me from hosting tourneys with anti-trip wiis (hint hint- it's exactly what I do).

But when I go off to Apex, there's no reason that I should lose to tripping (or have the potential to do so,) I should lose because my opponent is better than me.

Ghostbone · Aug 24, 2011

That's true, there's nothing stopping you.
I just don't see why you would only turn off tripping, and not then re-balance some stages, fix up some glitches, etc.

Tripping is gay but turning it off can change who the better player is, it benefits some characters or playstyles more than others, changing the balance of the game.

You're no longer playing Brawl anymore, so why should you force players to play a game that isn't Brawl to decide if they move forward in a Brawl tournament?

I have no problem with no tripping tournaments though, I just want consistency.

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

ghostbone said:
That's true, there's nothing stopping you.
I just don't see why you would only turn off tripping, and not then re-balance some stages, fix up some glitches, etc.

Tripping is gay but turning it off can change who the better player is, it benefits some characters or playstyles more than others, changing the balance of the game.

You're no longer playing Brawl anymore, so why should you force players to play a game that isn't Brawl to decide if they move forward in a Brawl tournament?

I have no problem with no tripping tournaments though, I just want consistency.

There could be a tournament set where (because of the random nature of tripping) there are no trips, not a single one, despite many dashes. Is this still Vanilla Brawl?

SaveMeJebus · Aug 24, 2011

Taking off trips changes match ups. Kirby can no longer just wait for Olimar to dash and trip. certain characters trip more than others and taking that off just messes with the game

Ripple · Aug 24, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
Taking off trips changes match ups. certain characters trip more than others and taking that off just messes with the game

only luigi has a different chance. and people don't take tripping into account while judging match up ratios so no, it won't change match ups

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
Taking off trips changes match ups. Kirby can no longer just wait for Olimar to dash and trip. certain characters trip more than others and taking that off just messes with the game

Jebus you don't go to tournaments what does it matter to you?

Nidtendofreak · Aug 24, 2011

M@v said:
At the same time, I could argue brawl makes you go to sudden death if a match ends with stocks tied. Thats altering the mechanics of the game.

That's not altering. That's ignoring. There is no change of coding involved.

Honestly, at times I don't think any stage hacks should be allowed either. It alters minor things in the game play: namely the ability to see Snake's C4.

When you play Brawl competitively, you accept the fact that tripping can occur and play a roll in the match. It's a part of the game: always has been, always will be.

SaveMeJebus · Aug 24, 2011

Ripple said:
only luigi has a different chance. and people don't take tripping into account while judging match up ratios so no, it won't change match ups

Falln (a Socal Kirby main) told me that it is almost impossible to win the Olimar MU without trips. It definitely changes MUs especially when you have grounded characters fighting aerial characters.

T-block · Aug 24, 2011

Dekar173 said:
Jebus- would you EVER actually tell someone that you DID NOT want to play on an anti-trip wii?

Absolutely. Taking out tripping does change the balance of the game. As has been stated before, Peach would be nerfed by removing tripping. Some characters need to dash more than others. Some punish trips harder than others.

There's also the fact that the worse player will naturally want tripping to remain, since it introduces randomness that could allow him to win over the better player.

Not saying this is a good thing at all for competition, but it does change the game.

SaveMeJebus · Aug 24, 2011

You never here any complaints from Pokemon players because of hax (maybe you do but they don't go and remove it from the game). Just accept it

Ripple · Aug 24, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
Falln (a Socal Kirby main) told me that it is almost impossible to win the Olimar MU without trips. It definitely changes MUs especially when you have grounded characters fighting aerial characters.

and that means kirby has a ~5% chance of winning anyways then since tripping is only a 1% chance of happening and I'm being generous in saying he'll trip 5x in a match.

no tripping from running does not change any match ups

Zankoku · Aug 24, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
You never here any complaints from Pokemon players because of hax (maybe you do but they don't go and remove it from the game). Just accept it

Evasion Clause
OHKO Clause

SaveMeJebus · Aug 24, 2011

Ankoku said:
Evasion Clause
OHKO Clause

They don't get rid of crits or chances of freeze (stuff you can't control without messing with the game)

Strong Badam · Aug 24, 2011

This is also not the Pokémon community.

SaveMeJebus · Aug 24, 2011

No, but you shouldn't ban something because you don't like it.

Zankoku · Aug 24, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
They don't get rid of crits or chances of freeze (stuff you can't control without messing with the game)

So because they remove some random elements (lowering accuracy or raising evasion, 50% chance of instant KO) but not others, Pokémon players don't complain at all?

btw
Freeze Clause
Two or more Pokemon on a team cannot be frozen at the same time.

Sleep Clause
Two or more Pokemon on a team cannot be asleep at the same time. Self-induce sleep via Rest does not activate Sleep Clause.

Yes, these mechanics are enforced in Shoddy2/PO by reducing chance of causing Sleep or Freeze to 0%.

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

People seem to be not understanding what I'm saying (which happens when you can't read good and stuff and need to go to a school to learn to read good and other stuff).

This is not me demanding that anti-trip be the new standard. This is me suggesting that anti-trip should be a choice on set-ups at tournaments, whereas the Unity Ruleset suggests ABSOLUTELY NO "game-changing" hacks.

deepseadiva · Aug 24, 2011

Just make it rule that you can't hit someone if they randomly trip!

And then Brawl was saved.

Dekar173 · Aug 24, 2011

Meno said:
Just make it rule that you can't hit someone if they randomly trip!

And then Brawl was saved.

You know dash-dancing is good for Peach, right? Oh wait you don't because brawl players suck ***.

Should anti-trip be a choice for tourney sets?

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