One of Marth's most annoying match-ups and probably the match-up that most Marths are having the most trouble with at the moment.
Here's a link to all Diddy's frame data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239185
Diddy’s troubling options:
Fair:
[COLLAPSE=" "]Trades with:
Fair, jab, advancing nair
Loses to:
Ftilt, retreating nair, bair, uair (not all that common of a situation though)
Fair is used largely as an Anti-Air as it trades with, or beats, most approaching aerials in the game. It is also commonly used as a ledge trap vs. Marth, especially when there is a banana close to the ledge that he can pick up while fairing. Unfortunately, Diddy’s will rarely approach with fair (well, they’ll rarely approach at all actually) or in general use it on you if you are grounded outside of trying to land. As a result your opportunities to beat it with Ftilt are few and limited. If while you are in the air, you think Diddy will try to fair you, falling back with nair is one of your better choices.
[/COLLAPSE]
Side-B (Monkey flip/flip kick/Diddy Hump/His Command Grab):
[COLLAPSE="Flip Kick"]Trades with:
Fair, jab, any hit of dancing blade (if you space if incredibly, it’s possible to just win straight out w/ DB and continue the attack. However… yeah… good luck with that), advancing nair
Loses to:
Retreating nair, bair, ftilt
If the kick hits your shield, you can shield grab it, Dolphin Slash it, and Dancing Blade it rather easily OoS. Then another option that is largely underused (even though I didn't think of it here, lol. Thank you Ramin!) is usmash OoS. However, if you shield it, be prepared for him to use the grab instead of the kick.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Monkey Hump"]The grab part of the attack generally loses to and trades hits with the same attacks. Just be careful not to be grabbed by it in shield. Something to note is that a reasonably well timed Dancing Blade has- at least for me- historically beaten out the grab. As players tend to shield more when Diddy has a banana in his hand, be especially aware of this command grab while he is holding a banana.
[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="SideB's frame data"]Side Special
Diddy Hump:
Grabs On: 19-32
Duration Without Grab: 43
Jump Attack: *
Duration: 46
(First Hit)
Hits On: 18
Hitlag: 1
Base Damage: 5%
(Second Hit)
Hits On: 27
Hitlag: 1
Base Damage: 5%
Bash Attack: **
Duration: 41
(First Hit)
Hits On: 12
Hitlag: 6
Base Damage: 5%
(Second Hit)
Hits On: 26
Hitlag: 1
Base Damage: 10%
Monkey Kick: ***
Can Interrupt Diddy Hump for Monkey Kick on: 12-43
Hits on Frame: 4-25
(Sweetspot)
Duration: 41
Hitlag: 10
Blockstun: 4
Blockhitlag: 10
Base Damage: 14%
(Medium Spot)
Duration: 40
Hitlag: 9
Blockstun: 4
Blockhitlag: 9
Base Damage: 12%
(Sourspot)
Duration: 39
Hitlag: 8
Blockstun: 3
Blockhitlag: 8
Base Damage: 10%
*This is based off the frame you press a jump as the first frame.
**This is based off the frame you press an attack button as the first frame.
***Everything in here but the information on when you can interrupt the Diddy Hump for Monkey Kick is based on the frame you press A to start the monkey kick. The interruption data is based on when the Diddy Hump started.[/COLLAPSE]
Ftilt and Dtilt:
[COLLAPSE=" "]Treat these two attacks similarly to Donkey Kong’s ftilt and dtilt. They both outrange a lot of your grounded moveset. However, you out-disjoint them by a large degree. Ftilt can kill so don’t be caught off guard by it. Like other ftilts, Diddy's can be angled as well. Upward angled ftilt can stuff Marth's approaches really well. Luckily, ftilt is super laggy so you can punish it really easily if it misses you/you AD it. Additionally, ftilt can punish whiffed fairs when Diddy doesn't have a banana in his hand reasonably well.
Dtilt combos into itself and grab at low percents. Be ready to SDI this move so as to lessen the number of dtilts Diddy can get off and his follow-ups afterwards. While SDIing the dtilt, buffer fair. Depending on how greedy they are, they will get hit by it (your SDI depending) -Ramin. Once your above lower percents though, Diddy won't be dtilting as much and are move likely to jab instead.[/COLLAPSE]
The Banana Game:
Obviously, this is the aspect of the Diddy match-up where he is the strongest and gets the most out his tools. He can have out either zero, one, or two bananas at a time. Of these there can be one in his hand, one in your hand, one on the ground under your control (he’ll trip on it), one on the ground under his control (you’ll trip on it), two on the ground, one under your control and the other under his control, both on the ground under his control, or both on the ground under your control. Knowing what to do in each situation is imperative to being able to do well in the match-up. Obviously I’m not going to go through every last part of each situation because I’m lazy/you should figure some of it out yourself to fit your own playstyle. I will however, cover a fair bit of each (or most) situation(s).
At the beginning of the game, there will be no bananas out at all, so I’ll talk about this one first!
[COLLAPSE="No Bananas Out"]Diddy can pull out bananas two different ways, smash tosses and tilt tosses. Just like item throws, the smash tosses go farther (in this case higher) than the tilt tosses. Either way he does it though, he has a fair amount of lag on the end of the pull. Nothing too long, but enough for you to punish it. Make sure you take advantage of this situation- especially if they pull them out like Gnes does which is jumping, and double jumping slightly off the stage with his back turned- by forcing him offstage or to the ledge.
When he doesn’t have a banana in his hand, it is pretty much the only time where a falling fair on shield is safe. If he has a banana in his hand, don’t fall and land with a fair on his shield.
Avoid getting grabbed and faired. Diddy’s grabs have a high base knockback which will allow him to get the space he needs to pull out his bananas.
Be aggressive with your follow-ups! Just, for the love of *insert highly revered thing here,* watch out for his fair! This is one of the two times you have a solid advantage over Diddy. Abuse your follow-up game, force him to the ledge, if you get him offstage force bad decisions so that you can rack up damage or potentially gimp him.[/COLLAPSE]
One Banana out:
[COLLAPSE="In Diddy's Hand"]Fastfall fair on Diddy’s shield is VERY bad. Actually, every falling aerial on Diddy's shield is bad. No matter how well you space them, he can throw the banana at you out of shield almost guaranteeing that you’ll trip/a punish.
Instead of falling fair, use rising fair. It is safe.
You don’t want to land with any aerial because it takes away your ability to limit how Diddy can trap your landings. If you don’t land with an action so that you have every moment free to:
Z-catch, instant throw, instant throw on landing, instant glidetoss on landing, etc.
While Diddy has one banana in his hand, many times players will automatically shield because they view the banana as taking away Diddy’s grab. If you find yourself in this situation be on the lookout for Diddy to use his command grab. Be able to retreating nair OOS on reaction to this to stay safe.
If using his pop-gun, it is usually punishable, just very hard. If he at any point begins to charge the peanut shot however, it is most likely a bait. His pop-gun can be canceled into shield at any point during the attack. If it can be canceled into a shield, that means that glidetossing the banana at you in order to stuff you approach is a very real threat. Just be aware.
While attempting to juggle Diddy, watch out for Z-dropping bananas and invincible banana drops.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Banana Hits Your Shield"]Fair OoS to catch the banana is easily baited into getting Marth faired back.
Instant throwing OoS, Z-catching OoS, etc are also good options.
[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Banana On The Ground"]Keep Diddy away from it!
If the opportunity presents itself, get it under your control. Walk over and hit “A” then Z-drop it, throw it up, whatever. I don’t recommend going out of your way/losing a good positional advantage to get it though; that’s just silly
Play like Diddy doesn’t have any bananas out. Be aggressive! Force him to act! If the banana isn’t under your control though, make sure you don’t trap your own landing.
Instant throwing/glidetossing on landing is still good here. You can fall so it looks like you will trip on it on landing. Diddy will usually run in and try to punish
Try to not let the banana expire if possible and reasonable to do so. Throwing it up controls some space and makes it last longer. [/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="In Marth's Hand"]You have a stronger version of your typical fair zoning available to you now. When you SH, Z-drop the banana at different intervals and when you fair (depending on when you Z-dropped it, if you FF, and when you fair) you’ll either catch the banana or, the banana will fall under you to cover your landing fairly well.
Just because you have the banana in your hand doesn’t mean you HAVE to use it offensively. Don’t throw it at Diddy blindly. Throw (or glidetoss) it at Diddy to trap his landings or as a punish. Approaching via glidetossing while throwing the banana up or down is a good option. You have the possibility of messing with their hit confirm so you can get a free grab
If you ever feel pressured, Marth’s glidetoss is fast and long. Use it as an escape option.
If you want the banana out of your hand, do not throw it. Marth’s throws are super laggy. Just Z-drop it instead. Z-drops are near lagless.
Just like you’ll see Diddy’s do, if you’re on the ground and dthrow the banana while right next to Diddy, even if he’s shielding, it’s likely that it’ll still cause a trip.[/COLLAPSE]
2 Bananas Out:
[COLLAPSE="One In Diddy's Hand, The Other On The Ground Under His Control"]If Diddy is set-up in the “ADHD” wall (banana in hand, one in front, shooting peanuts) just wait out the lifespan of the grounded banana.
If the banana is on the ground away from Diddy, keep him away from the second banana if at all possible. Otherwise you give him the opportunity to set up his wall. Making an obvious attempt to get the banana for yourself is easily punished. Do it if you get the chance to, but don’t go out of your way.
In general, play it like Diddy just has the one in his hand. Be careful not to trap your own landing.
When the banana on the ground is fairly close to Diddy, watch out for getting faired and them waiting in shield and to punish any attempt you make to get Diddy away from the second banana. Grabs work really well here.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="One In Diddy's Hand, The Other On The Ground Under Your Control"]Try to force Diddy towards the grounded banana. Diddy will either throw his banana at you to try and get the grounded one under his control, trip on it himself, or try to go back through you to avoid the banana. React to each situation.
Any time you feel overly pressured and you’re reasonably within range of the banana on the ground or feel as though Diddy may be able to gain control of it, grab it and glidetoss to safety.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="One In Marth's Hand, The Other On The Ground Under Diddy's Control"]Don’t jump near the second banana, it only risks trapping yourself.
If in the lead, and between Diddy and the second banana, stay mostly grounded and just zone Diddy out.
If the grounded one disappears, be ready to punish Diddy for pulling out another one. Glidetossing will close the distance quickly. Just be on the lookout for getting grabbed.
If the opportunity presents itself, get the other banana under your control as well.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="One In Marth's Hand, The Other On The Ground Under Marth's Control"]Be aggressive if you want to be! You get to completely control the pace of the match right now. Diddy no longer has access to his best tools. His OoS options are now lacking other than fair OoS. **** him.
Marth’s short forward glide toss is very similar in length to Diddy’s glidetoss distance. As a result, Marth can banana lock Diddy for a little bit similarly to what Diddy does to every other character.
Make sure you know how to use bananas offstage effectively. When to Z-drop them, dthrow them, uthrow them, how to limit the spacing and timing as for when Diddy can use his barrels to recover, etc etc.[/COLLAPSE]
Banana tricks:
You can’t possibly play this MU at an even level if you don’t have as good of control over bananas and as developed of an item game as the Diddy Kong player. If your item game is lacking, then you’re going to lose, badly, unless you severely outplay the opponent.
[COLLAPSE="Sorry, there's no order to them though"]Item pick-up- When next to the item, press the “A” button and your character will pick up the item next to you. Not every character has the same range in which they can pick up an item from.
Smash throw- Throwing an item as hard as your character can. Use the C-stick or hit the analog stick all the way (as if you were doing a smash attack) and hit “A.”
Tilt throw- Throwing an item softer than a smash throw. Tilt the analog stick (as if you were going to do a tilt) and press “A.” You will throw the item less far and it will do less damage on hit.
Z-catch- While in the air, press “Z” to catch an item with no lag
Z-drop- While in the air, with an item in your hand, press “Z” to drop the item with no lag
Fair zoning while holding a banana- While you SH, Z-drop the banana and the immediately FF fair. You’ll zone with fair as normal, while keeping constant control over the banana. Alternatively, delaying your FF, or Z-dropping while you rise from you SH will cause you to not catch the banana making it cover your landing somewhat.
Air dodge catching- While an item is coming at you in the air, you can air dodge to catch the item. However, you go through the entire duration of the air dodge so this can be baited and punished fairly easily.
Instant throw- While air dodge catching an item, you can cancel the air dodge in the very beginning by throwing the item with either a smash throw or a tilt throw. You can throw the item in all four directions (up, down, left, and right).
Rising instant throw- While an item is on the ground next to you, you can buffer an instant throw out of you jump so you will throw the item on the ground as you rise upwards.
Instant throw on landing- This one is probably the hardest variation of instant throwing (although still fairly simple). Air dodge into the ground as you are about to land but delay you air dodge as late as possible and then as you land, input a throw. You will throw the item as you land on it and you won’t suffer landing lag. (Not sure if this removes RCO lag. Someone should test it for me since I don’t have my wii anymore). This greatly lessens the effect of bananas trapping your landings. A good reason you don’t want to land with an aerial while Diddy has a banana in his hand.
Instant throwing (as a ledge option)- If you are on the ledge with a banana near the ledge, you can fall off from the ledge, jump onto the stage and instant throw the banana as you pass it or land on it. Diddys will do this frequently to you. Use it against him and be prepared for him to use it vs. you.
Glide tossing- While an item is in your hand, you can cancel a roll with a smash throw (if you cancel it with a tilt throw it is referred to as a “weak glidetoss”). Most characters have eight glide tosses (sliding forward while throwing up, down, left, and right; sliding backwards while throwing up, down, left, and right). Marth, however, has between ten and sixteen different glidetosses. He has the normal eight glidetosses that every other character has (sans Yoshi of course). However, he additionally has a short glidetosses, sliding forward while throwing the item down and forward. I’ve been told that all eight of his glidetosses have shortened versions, but I’ve never been able to do them outside of the two aforementioned ones.
Glidetoss on landing- Very similarly to instant throwing on landing, you can delay your air dodge into the ground and grab the item using that. You can then buffer a glidetoss so that you glidetoss as soon as you land. This also lessens the effectiveness of landing traps and offers a good counter approach and escape option if you’re feeling pressured.
Glidetoss out of a run- While running, press shield and instantly input a glide toss. You’ll glide toss out of a run with almost no downtime between the two depending on how long you let your shield stay up before the glidetoss comes out.
Invincible item drop- Air dodge and immediately afterwards, press “A” (not simultaneously). This will have your character drop the item (like they would for a Z-drop) while air dodging. Useful for getting out of juggles.
DACIT (Dash Attack Canceled Item Toss)- Very similar to a DACUS. You initiate a dash attack and cancel it with an item throw. If you do the exact same input as a DACUS, you will throw the item up. Extrapolate from there. This results in a significantly shorter slide than a glidetoss would give you.
JCIT (Jump Canceled Item Toss)- Mostly useful while running. Input a jump then cancel it in your character’s jump squat frames with an item throw (basically the same as a JCgrab in melee). This give almost no slide.
Item pick-up (while running)- Usually while running, pressing “A” to pick up an item results in a dash attack while picking up an item on the ground. However, while running (NOT during an initial dash) if you press “A” when you get to the item and let the analog stick fall back to neutral, you will pick up the item and stop running.
Z-drop speedhug (thank you Kadaj!)- While you are speedhugging, you are considered to be off the stage and in the air for a VERY short amount of time. During this period of time, you can Z-drop an item as you are grabbing the ledge. If Diddy is being required to recover vertically it’s a close to guaranteed gimp.[/COLLAPSE]
Ledge Trapping:
This is without a doubt one of the strongest positions you can have Diddy in so make sure you take full advantage of it when you're in it.
[COLLAPSE=" "]If there is a banana near the ledge, make sure you get it away from the ledge if you can do so easily without giving up your positional advantage. Diddy will abuse instant tossing in order to get on the stage safely.
If you can’t safely get rid of the banana, make sure you are prepared to catch the banana when Diddy throws it at you.
Nair (retreating or possibly stationary depending on how quickly you react) will beat Diddy’s sideB cleanly and knock him back off. Alternatively, bair will work but it will send them at a higher angle allowing for Diddy to recover easier.
Diddy’s ledge attack is fairly long ranged. Don’t get caught by surprise by it.
Diddy’s fair is the only other “good” option he has from the ledge. Nair/bair beat this cleanly too.
Of course, be prepared for item throws if Diddy does have a banana in his hand while on the ledge.
Diddy has access to wall clinging and wall jumping. However, it's *somewhat* telegraphed. Dtilt works really well in this situation. However, be careful of wall jump-> banana pull. (Thank you P-1)
His roll of the ledge is about average length so DB on reaction or grabbing him and rethrowing him off are both fairly realistic.[/COLLAPSE]
Juggling:
Juggling Diddy is annoying. He has a lagless B-reversal, his side-B, a really good fair if he manages to get low enough, and an alright- fairly disjointed- dair.
[COLLAPSE=" "]If he uses his side-B early on, his landing options are far more limited. If he still has his side-B, catching his landing is really hard to do.
SH FFuair as low as possible will at worst trade with Diddy’s fair and dair. Additionally it can force an air dodge when Diddy lands. If this happens, since you’re FFing and started out lower than Diddy did, you will be hitting the ground before Diddy allowing you to usmash/utilt/grab Diddy’s landing to reset the situation or throw him offstage. Pivot grabs, as always, are really good at this.
Diddys commonly use their side-B when they are offstage/on the corner of the stage and high up to get back towards the center of the stage. If you can try to force that position you can bait out a side-B so getting landings is easier (or if you’re MK you can just SL him to hell). Naturally, if you are high enough up to, bair will beat this cleanly and potentially kill.
Uair’s horizontal range is HUGE. It can easily cover his lagless B-reversals and hit him.
*NOTE* Diddy’s lagless B-reversal is when he cancels his popgun in the very beginning frames of it. If he tries to cancel it too late, it forces him to air dodge. In this case, uair will, obviously, lose.
Make sure you FF whatever aerial you are using to juggle him. Otherwise if he manages to get past you, you’ll get faired or uaired.[/COLLAPSE]
Player-1 and Lord Chair have both told me that juggling Diddy isn't that hard. While not the case in my experience, I trust P-1's opinion and will look into it more!
[COLLAPSE=" "]Patience is key is getting the banana out of Diddy's hand in order to juggle him. Watch out for the throw and punish accordingly.
Slow air speed makes for less effective B-reversals. Mentioned already, but uair will cover this.[/COLLAPSE]
Offstage Game:
[COLLAPSE=" "]First and foremost, do NOT counter Diddy’s upB. It backfires… a LOT. It’s stupid, and he auto-techs the stage, and you blow-up, and it’s BULL****… I lost a tourny set to this before. /salt.
If Diddy hasn’t used his side-B yet, make sure you stay above or below Diddy. If you get grabbed by Diddy’s side-B, it WILL kill you. Bair from below, nair from above.
Diddy’s kick from his side-B isn’t an issue to worry about. If he kicks, then he loses the ability to use his upB so it’s a non-issue.
If you're on the ledge, DB away from the stage then fair him. Hits him back out for free %.
If you feel like you’re amazing, DB1 > barrels. Be ready to tech the stage though in case it goes badly.
Unless you have to try to beat Diddy to the ledge with them, avoid dthrowing bananas, Z-drop instead.
In general, Z-dropped banana > thrown banana. It controls the same amount of space for a much longer time. Additionally, in case something goes wrong, Z-drops are basically lagless while dthrow is very laggy.
Make sure that you can instant DS regrab consistently. It is a godsend while trying to ledgehog Diddy’s upB. It’s significantly easier that trying to time a speedhug. Especially considering the fact that Diddy can always just charge his barrels longer.
While DS regrapping with a banana in your hand, you can Z-drop the banana as you let go of the ledge, before you DS, making it so that if Diddy is recovering vertically, it’s almost a guaranteed gimp.
If, while offstage, you want to be banana-less, Z-drop or uthrow the banana. It controls space the best and for the longest period of time. Z-drop is for more immediate effects, while uthrow is for when you’re not sure if the banana will be of any use at all, but certainly no use immediately. Uthrow allows the banana to be out of the way and will simulate a Z-drop later on when it is *possible* to be of use.[/COLLAPSE]
Random tidbits about general Diddy things:
[COLLAPSE=" "]Utilt will kill early if you let it catch you off guard. It is a fairly quick move. However, if you do DI it, it won’t kill until ~170%.
Marth can crouch under rising fairs. However, this is not a likely situation since fair is largely used as an anti-air (or other situations where you can't crouch). Although, crouching is underused in general.
Grabs are very strong in the MU. Diddys like to sit in their shield since they can pretty much always turn a bad situation into a good one via banana toss OoS.
If Diddy banana locks you be ready to SDI out of his fsmash. They are more likely to save dsmash for killing
SDI the banana throws away from Diddy. It lessens the number of times you can be locked and shortens the time frame he has to follow-up out of it (since he has further to go in order to hit you).
FH fair is bad. Diddy’s rise speed is quick enough to be able to fair you back OoS. (Thank you Pierce!)
Diddy largely relies on punishing your landings. Use footstools!
While Diddy’s uair is fairly quick coming out, it has a surprising amount of cooldown on it.
Ftilt and Dtilt both largely outrange Marth. They don’t, however outdisjoint him at all. Don’t get caught by random ftilts (they can kill). However, ftilt is highly punishable on shield (something stupid like -25 before shield drop). Dtilt is fairly safe however (-13ish on shield before shield drop) although still definitely punishable, just don’t be too slow.
Diddy’s dash attack is ********. It’s *essentially* safe on shield. However, you can DS through it OoS, between individual hits of the attack. Just make sure you don’t try to after the last hit otherwise he can shield it. Additionally, you can grab Diddy between the second-to-last hit and the last hit of it.
GR-> Dash Attack and fair are legit. However, Diddy has to input a jump command to air release. Otherwise, he'll ground release like normal.[/COLLAPSE]
Stages!Super short overview
Most Diddy's will ban Brinstar vs you. Rainbow Cruise gives Diddys fewer overall options, however Diddy isn't bad on on RC by any means. Naturally, you should ban FD (assuming picto isn't legal). Personally, I CP Lylat Cruise (super underrated Marth stage) and Frigate. However, I can easily see this one just being a matter of personal comfort level on what you choose. People should discuss this more
Did I miss something? Let me know and I'll add it in.
Do you disagree with something in here? Cool, post it and discuss it. All that means is I get to learn too!
P.S. This MU is even. (Message is cosigned by Mr. R)
Here's a link to all Diddy's frame data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239185
Diddy’s troubling options:
Fair:
[COLLAPSE=" "]Trades with:
Fair, jab, advancing nair
Loses to:
Ftilt, retreating nair, bair, uair (not all that common of a situation though)
Fair is used largely as an Anti-Air as it trades with, or beats, most approaching aerials in the game. It is also commonly used as a ledge trap vs. Marth, especially when there is a banana close to the ledge that he can pick up while fairing. Unfortunately, Diddy’s will rarely approach with fair (well, they’ll rarely approach at all actually) or in general use it on you if you are grounded outside of trying to land. As a result your opportunities to beat it with Ftilt are few and limited. If while you are in the air, you think Diddy will try to fair you, falling back with nair is one of your better choices.
[/COLLAPSE]
Side-B (Monkey flip/flip kick/Diddy Hump/His Command Grab):
[COLLAPSE="Flip Kick"]Trades with:
Fair, jab, any hit of dancing blade (if you space if incredibly, it’s possible to just win straight out w/ DB and continue the attack. However… yeah… good luck with that), advancing nair
Loses to:
Retreating nair, bair, ftilt
If the kick hits your shield, you can shield grab it, Dolphin Slash it, and Dancing Blade it rather easily OoS. Then another option that is largely underused (even though I didn't think of it here, lol. Thank you Ramin!) is usmash OoS. However, if you shield it, be prepared for him to use the grab instead of the kick.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Monkey Hump"]The grab part of the attack generally loses to and trades hits with the same attacks. Just be careful not to be grabbed by it in shield. Something to note is that a reasonably well timed Dancing Blade has- at least for me- historically beaten out the grab. As players tend to shield more when Diddy has a banana in his hand, be especially aware of this command grab while he is holding a banana.
[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="SideB's frame data"]Side Special
Diddy Hump:
Grabs On: 19-32
Duration Without Grab: 43
Jump Attack: *
Duration: 46
(First Hit)
Hits On: 18
Hitlag: 1
Base Damage: 5%
(Second Hit)
Hits On: 27
Hitlag: 1
Base Damage: 5%
Bash Attack: **
Duration: 41
(First Hit)
Hits On: 12
Hitlag: 6
Base Damage: 5%
(Second Hit)
Hits On: 26
Hitlag: 1
Base Damage: 10%
Monkey Kick: ***
Can Interrupt Diddy Hump for Monkey Kick on: 12-43
Hits on Frame: 4-25
(Sweetspot)
Duration: 41
Hitlag: 10
Blockstun: 4
Blockhitlag: 10
Base Damage: 14%
(Medium Spot)
Duration: 40
Hitlag: 9
Blockstun: 4
Blockhitlag: 9
Base Damage: 12%
(Sourspot)
Duration: 39
Hitlag: 8
Blockstun: 3
Blockhitlag: 8
Base Damage: 10%
*This is based off the frame you press a jump as the first frame.
**This is based off the frame you press an attack button as the first frame.
***Everything in here but the information on when you can interrupt the Diddy Hump for Monkey Kick is based on the frame you press A to start the monkey kick. The interruption data is based on when the Diddy Hump started.[/COLLAPSE]
Ftilt and Dtilt:
[COLLAPSE=" "]Treat these two attacks similarly to Donkey Kong’s ftilt and dtilt. They both outrange a lot of your grounded moveset. However, you out-disjoint them by a large degree. Ftilt can kill so don’t be caught off guard by it. Like other ftilts, Diddy's can be angled as well. Upward angled ftilt can stuff Marth's approaches really well. Luckily, ftilt is super laggy so you can punish it really easily if it misses you/you AD it. Additionally, ftilt can punish whiffed fairs when Diddy doesn't have a banana in his hand reasonably well.
Dtilt combos into itself and grab at low percents. Be ready to SDI this move so as to lessen the number of dtilts Diddy can get off and his follow-ups afterwards. While SDIing the dtilt, buffer fair. Depending on how greedy they are, they will get hit by it (your SDI depending) -Ramin. Once your above lower percents though, Diddy won't be dtilting as much and are move likely to jab instead.[/COLLAPSE]
The Banana Game:
Obviously, this is the aspect of the Diddy match-up where he is the strongest and gets the most out his tools. He can have out either zero, one, or two bananas at a time. Of these there can be one in his hand, one in your hand, one on the ground under your control (he’ll trip on it), one on the ground under his control (you’ll trip on it), two on the ground, one under your control and the other under his control, both on the ground under his control, or both on the ground under your control. Knowing what to do in each situation is imperative to being able to do well in the match-up. Obviously I’m not going to go through every last part of each situation because I’m lazy/you should figure some of it out yourself to fit your own playstyle. I will however, cover a fair bit of each (or most) situation(s).
At the beginning of the game, there will be no bananas out at all, so I’ll talk about this one first!
[COLLAPSE="No Bananas Out"]Diddy can pull out bananas two different ways, smash tosses and tilt tosses. Just like item throws, the smash tosses go farther (in this case higher) than the tilt tosses. Either way he does it though, he has a fair amount of lag on the end of the pull. Nothing too long, but enough for you to punish it. Make sure you take advantage of this situation- especially if they pull them out like Gnes does which is jumping, and double jumping slightly off the stage with his back turned- by forcing him offstage or to the ledge.
When he doesn’t have a banana in his hand, it is pretty much the only time where a falling fair on shield is safe. If he has a banana in his hand, don’t fall and land with a fair on his shield.
Avoid getting grabbed and faired. Diddy’s grabs have a high base knockback which will allow him to get the space he needs to pull out his bananas.
Be aggressive with your follow-ups! Just, for the love of *insert highly revered thing here,* watch out for his fair! This is one of the two times you have a solid advantage over Diddy. Abuse your follow-up game, force him to the ledge, if you get him offstage force bad decisions so that you can rack up damage or potentially gimp him.[/COLLAPSE]
One Banana out:
[COLLAPSE="In Diddy's Hand"]Fastfall fair on Diddy’s shield is VERY bad. Actually, every falling aerial on Diddy's shield is bad. No matter how well you space them, he can throw the banana at you out of shield almost guaranteeing that you’ll trip/a punish.
Instead of falling fair, use rising fair. It is safe.
You don’t want to land with any aerial because it takes away your ability to limit how Diddy can trap your landings. If you don’t land with an action so that you have every moment free to:
Z-catch, instant throw, instant throw on landing, instant glidetoss on landing, etc.
While Diddy has one banana in his hand, many times players will automatically shield because they view the banana as taking away Diddy’s grab. If you find yourself in this situation be on the lookout for Diddy to use his command grab. Be able to retreating nair OOS on reaction to this to stay safe.
If using his pop-gun, it is usually punishable, just very hard. If he at any point begins to charge the peanut shot however, it is most likely a bait. His pop-gun can be canceled into shield at any point during the attack. If it can be canceled into a shield, that means that glidetossing the banana at you in order to stuff you approach is a very real threat. Just be aware.
While attempting to juggle Diddy, watch out for Z-dropping bananas and invincible banana drops.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Banana Hits Your Shield"]Fair OoS to catch the banana is easily baited into getting Marth faired back.
Instant throwing OoS, Z-catching OoS, etc are also good options.
[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Banana On The Ground"]Keep Diddy away from it!
If the opportunity presents itself, get it under your control. Walk over and hit “A” then Z-drop it, throw it up, whatever. I don’t recommend going out of your way/losing a good positional advantage to get it though; that’s just silly
Play like Diddy doesn’t have any bananas out. Be aggressive! Force him to act! If the banana isn’t under your control though, make sure you don’t trap your own landing.
Instant throwing/glidetossing on landing is still good here. You can fall so it looks like you will trip on it on landing. Diddy will usually run in and try to punish
Try to not let the banana expire if possible and reasonable to do so. Throwing it up controls some space and makes it last longer. [/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="In Marth's Hand"]You have a stronger version of your typical fair zoning available to you now. When you SH, Z-drop the banana at different intervals and when you fair (depending on when you Z-dropped it, if you FF, and when you fair) you’ll either catch the banana or, the banana will fall under you to cover your landing fairly well.
Just because you have the banana in your hand doesn’t mean you HAVE to use it offensively. Don’t throw it at Diddy blindly. Throw (or glidetoss) it at Diddy to trap his landings or as a punish. Approaching via glidetossing while throwing the banana up or down is a good option. You have the possibility of messing with their hit confirm so you can get a free grab
If you ever feel pressured, Marth’s glidetoss is fast and long. Use it as an escape option.
If you want the banana out of your hand, do not throw it. Marth’s throws are super laggy. Just Z-drop it instead. Z-drops are near lagless.
Just like you’ll see Diddy’s do, if you’re on the ground and dthrow the banana while right next to Diddy, even if he’s shielding, it’s likely that it’ll still cause a trip.[/COLLAPSE]
2 Bananas Out:
[COLLAPSE="One In Diddy's Hand, The Other On The Ground Under His Control"]If Diddy is set-up in the “ADHD” wall (banana in hand, one in front, shooting peanuts) just wait out the lifespan of the grounded banana.
If the banana is on the ground away from Diddy, keep him away from the second banana if at all possible. Otherwise you give him the opportunity to set up his wall. Making an obvious attempt to get the banana for yourself is easily punished. Do it if you get the chance to, but don’t go out of your way.
In general, play it like Diddy just has the one in his hand. Be careful not to trap your own landing.
When the banana on the ground is fairly close to Diddy, watch out for getting faired and them waiting in shield and to punish any attempt you make to get Diddy away from the second banana. Grabs work really well here.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="One In Diddy's Hand, The Other On The Ground Under Your Control"]Try to force Diddy towards the grounded banana. Diddy will either throw his banana at you to try and get the grounded one under his control, trip on it himself, or try to go back through you to avoid the banana. React to each situation.
Any time you feel overly pressured and you’re reasonably within range of the banana on the ground or feel as though Diddy may be able to gain control of it, grab it and glidetoss to safety.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="One In Marth's Hand, The Other On The Ground Under Diddy's Control"]Don’t jump near the second banana, it only risks trapping yourself.
If in the lead, and between Diddy and the second banana, stay mostly grounded and just zone Diddy out.
If the grounded one disappears, be ready to punish Diddy for pulling out another one. Glidetossing will close the distance quickly. Just be on the lookout for getting grabbed.
If the opportunity presents itself, get the other banana under your control as well.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="One In Marth's Hand, The Other On The Ground Under Marth's Control"]Be aggressive if you want to be! You get to completely control the pace of the match right now. Diddy no longer has access to his best tools. His OoS options are now lacking other than fair OoS. **** him.
Marth’s short forward glide toss is very similar in length to Diddy’s glidetoss distance. As a result, Marth can banana lock Diddy for a little bit similarly to what Diddy does to every other character.
Make sure you know how to use bananas offstage effectively. When to Z-drop them, dthrow them, uthrow them, how to limit the spacing and timing as for when Diddy can use his barrels to recover, etc etc.[/COLLAPSE]
Banana tricks:
You can’t possibly play this MU at an even level if you don’t have as good of control over bananas and as developed of an item game as the Diddy Kong player. If your item game is lacking, then you’re going to lose, badly, unless you severely outplay the opponent.
[COLLAPSE="Sorry, there's no order to them though"]Item pick-up- When next to the item, press the “A” button and your character will pick up the item next to you. Not every character has the same range in which they can pick up an item from.
Smash throw- Throwing an item as hard as your character can. Use the C-stick or hit the analog stick all the way (as if you were doing a smash attack) and hit “A.”
Tilt throw- Throwing an item softer than a smash throw. Tilt the analog stick (as if you were going to do a tilt) and press “A.” You will throw the item less far and it will do less damage on hit.
Z-catch- While in the air, press “Z” to catch an item with no lag
Z-drop- While in the air, with an item in your hand, press “Z” to drop the item with no lag
Fair zoning while holding a banana- While you SH, Z-drop the banana and the immediately FF fair. You’ll zone with fair as normal, while keeping constant control over the banana. Alternatively, delaying your FF, or Z-dropping while you rise from you SH will cause you to not catch the banana making it cover your landing somewhat.
Air dodge catching- While an item is coming at you in the air, you can air dodge to catch the item. However, you go through the entire duration of the air dodge so this can be baited and punished fairly easily.
Instant throw- While air dodge catching an item, you can cancel the air dodge in the very beginning by throwing the item with either a smash throw or a tilt throw. You can throw the item in all four directions (up, down, left, and right).
Rising instant throw- While an item is on the ground next to you, you can buffer an instant throw out of you jump so you will throw the item on the ground as you rise upwards.
Instant throw on landing- This one is probably the hardest variation of instant throwing (although still fairly simple). Air dodge into the ground as you are about to land but delay you air dodge as late as possible and then as you land, input a throw. You will throw the item as you land on it and you won’t suffer landing lag. (Not sure if this removes RCO lag. Someone should test it for me since I don’t have my wii anymore). This greatly lessens the effect of bananas trapping your landings. A good reason you don’t want to land with an aerial while Diddy has a banana in his hand.
Instant throwing (as a ledge option)- If you are on the ledge with a banana near the ledge, you can fall off from the ledge, jump onto the stage and instant throw the banana as you pass it or land on it. Diddys will do this frequently to you. Use it against him and be prepared for him to use it vs. you.
Glide tossing- While an item is in your hand, you can cancel a roll with a smash throw (if you cancel it with a tilt throw it is referred to as a “weak glidetoss”). Most characters have eight glide tosses (sliding forward while throwing up, down, left, and right; sliding backwards while throwing up, down, left, and right). Marth, however, has between ten and sixteen different glidetosses. He has the normal eight glidetosses that every other character has (sans Yoshi of course). However, he additionally has a short glidetosses, sliding forward while throwing the item down and forward. I’ve been told that all eight of his glidetosses have shortened versions, but I’ve never been able to do them outside of the two aforementioned ones.
Glidetoss on landing- Very similarly to instant throwing on landing, you can delay your air dodge into the ground and grab the item using that. You can then buffer a glidetoss so that you glidetoss as soon as you land. This also lessens the effectiveness of landing traps and offers a good counter approach and escape option if you’re feeling pressured.
Glidetoss out of a run- While running, press shield and instantly input a glide toss. You’ll glide toss out of a run with almost no downtime between the two depending on how long you let your shield stay up before the glidetoss comes out.
Invincible item drop- Air dodge and immediately afterwards, press “A” (not simultaneously). This will have your character drop the item (like they would for a Z-drop) while air dodging. Useful for getting out of juggles.
DACIT (Dash Attack Canceled Item Toss)- Very similar to a DACUS. You initiate a dash attack and cancel it with an item throw. If you do the exact same input as a DACUS, you will throw the item up. Extrapolate from there. This results in a significantly shorter slide than a glidetoss would give you.
JCIT (Jump Canceled Item Toss)- Mostly useful while running. Input a jump then cancel it in your character’s jump squat frames with an item throw (basically the same as a JCgrab in melee). This give almost no slide.
Item pick-up (while running)- Usually while running, pressing “A” to pick up an item results in a dash attack while picking up an item on the ground. However, while running (NOT during an initial dash) if you press “A” when you get to the item and let the analog stick fall back to neutral, you will pick up the item and stop running.
Z-drop speedhug (thank you Kadaj!)- While you are speedhugging, you are considered to be off the stage and in the air for a VERY short amount of time. During this period of time, you can Z-drop an item as you are grabbing the ledge. If Diddy is being required to recover vertically it’s a close to guaranteed gimp.[/COLLAPSE]
Ledge Trapping:
This is without a doubt one of the strongest positions you can have Diddy in so make sure you take full advantage of it when you're in it.
[COLLAPSE=" "]If there is a banana near the ledge, make sure you get it away from the ledge if you can do so easily without giving up your positional advantage. Diddy will abuse instant tossing in order to get on the stage safely.
If you can’t safely get rid of the banana, make sure you are prepared to catch the banana when Diddy throws it at you.
Nair (retreating or possibly stationary depending on how quickly you react) will beat Diddy’s sideB cleanly and knock him back off. Alternatively, bair will work but it will send them at a higher angle allowing for Diddy to recover easier.
Diddy’s ledge attack is fairly long ranged. Don’t get caught by surprise by it.
Diddy’s fair is the only other “good” option he has from the ledge. Nair/bair beat this cleanly too.
Of course, be prepared for item throws if Diddy does have a banana in his hand while on the ledge.
Diddy has access to wall clinging and wall jumping. However, it's *somewhat* telegraphed. Dtilt works really well in this situation. However, be careful of wall jump-> banana pull. (Thank you P-1)
His roll of the ledge is about average length so DB on reaction or grabbing him and rethrowing him off are both fairly realistic.[/COLLAPSE]
Juggling:
Juggling Diddy is annoying. He has a lagless B-reversal, his side-B, a really good fair if he manages to get low enough, and an alright- fairly disjointed- dair.
[COLLAPSE=" "]If he uses his side-B early on, his landing options are far more limited. If he still has his side-B, catching his landing is really hard to do.
SH FFuair as low as possible will at worst trade with Diddy’s fair and dair. Additionally it can force an air dodge when Diddy lands. If this happens, since you’re FFing and started out lower than Diddy did, you will be hitting the ground before Diddy allowing you to usmash/utilt/grab Diddy’s landing to reset the situation or throw him offstage. Pivot grabs, as always, are really good at this.
Diddys commonly use their side-B when they are offstage/on the corner of the stage and high up to get back towards the center of the stage. If you can try to force that position you can bait out a side-B so getting landings is easier (or if you’re MK you can just SL him to hell). Naturally, if you are high enough up to, bair will beat this cleanly and potentially kill.
Uair’s horizontal range is HUGE. It can easily cover his lagless B-reversals and hit him.
*NOTE* Diddy’s lagless B-reversal is when he cancels his popgun in the very beginning frames of it. If he tries to cancel it too late, it forces him to air dodge. In this case, uair will, obviously, lose.
Make sure you FF whatever aerial you are using to juggle him. Otherwise if he manages to get past you, you’ll get faired or uaired.[/COLLAPSE]
Player-1 and Lord Chair have both told me that juggling Diddy isn't that hard. While not the case in my experience, I trust P-1's opinion and will look into it more!
[COLLAPSE=" "]Patience is key is getting the banana out of Diddy's hand in order to juggle him. Watch out for the throw and punish accordingly.
Slow air speed makes for less effective B-reversals. Mentioned already, but uair will cover this.[/COLLAPSE]
Offstage Game:
[COLLAPSE=" "]First and foremost, do NOT counter Diddy’s upB. It backfires… a LOT. It’s stupid, and he auto-techs the stage, and you blow-up, and it’s BULL****… I lost a tourny set to this before. /salt.
If Diddy hasn’t used his side-B yet, make sure you stay above or below Diddy. If you get grabbed by Diddy’s side-B, it WILL kill you. Bair from below, nair from above.
Diddy’s kick from his side-B isn’t an issue to worry about. If he kicks, then he loses the ability to use his upB so it’s a non-issue.
If you're on the ledge, DB away from the stage then fair him. Hits him back out for free %.
If you feel like you’re amazing, DB1 > barrels. Be ready to tech the stage though in case it goes badly.
Unless you have to try to beat Diddy to the ledge with them, avoid dthrowing bananas, Z-drop instead.
In general, Z-dropped banana > thrown banana. It controls the same amount of space for a much longer time. Additionally, in case something goes wrong, Z-drops are basically lagless while dthrow is very laggy.
Make sure that you can instant DS regrab consistently. It is a godsend while trying to ledgehog Diddy’s upB. It’s significantly easier that trying to time a speedhug. Especially considering the fact that Diddy can always just charge his barrels longer.
While DS regrapping with a banana in your hand, you can Z-drop the banana as you let go of the ledge, before you DS, making it so that if Diddy is recovering vertically, it’s almost a guaranteed gimp.
If, while offstage, you want to be banana-less, Z-drop or uthrow the banana. It controls space the best and for the longest period of time. Z-drop is for more immediate effects, while uthrow is for when you’re not sure if the banana will be of any use at all, but certainly no use immediately. Uthrow allows the banana to be out of the way and will simulate a Z-drop later on when it is *possible* to be of use.[/COLLAPSE]
Random tidbits about general Diddy things:
[COLLAPSE=" "]Utilt will kill early if you let it catch you off guard. It is a fairly quick move. However, if you do DI it, it won’t kill until ~170%.
Marth can crouch under rising fairs. However, this is not a likely situation since fair is largely used as an anti-air (or other situations where you can't crouch). Although, crouching is underused in general.
Grabs are very strong in the MU. Diddys like to sit in their shield since they can pretty much always turn a bad situation into a good one via banana toss OoS.
If Diddy banana locks you be ready to SDI out of his fsmash. They are more likely to save dsmash for killing
SDI the banana throws away from Diddy. It lessens the number of times you can be locked and shortens the time frame he has to follow-up out of it (since he has further to go in order to hit you).
FH fair is bad. Diddy’s rise speed is quick enough to be able to fair you back OoS. (Thank you Pierce!)
Diddy largely relies on punishing your landings. Use footstools!
While Diddy’s uair is fairly quick coming out, it has a surprising amount of cooldown on it.
Ftilt and Dtilt both largely outrange Marth. They don’t, however outdisjoint him at all. Don’t get caught by random ftilts (they can kill). However, ftilt is highly punishable on shield (something stupid like -25 before shield drop). Dtilt is fairly safe however (-13ish on shield before shield drop) although still definitely punishable, just don’t be too slow.
Diddy’s dash attack is ********. It’s *essentially* safe on shield. However, you can DS through it OoS, between individual hits of the attack. Just make sure you don’t try to after the last hit otherwise he can shield it. Additionally, you can grab Diddy between the second-to-last hit and the last hit of it.
GR-> Dash Attack and fair are legit. However, Diddy has to input a jump command to air release. Otherwise, he'll ground release like normal.[/COLLAPSE]
Stages!Super short overview
Most Diddy's will ban Brinstar vs you. Rainbow Cruise gives Diddys fewer overall options, however Diddy isn't bad on on RC by any means. Naturally, you should ban FD (assuming picto isn't legal). Personally, I CP Lylat Cruise (super underrated Marth stage) and Frigate. However, I can easily see this one just being a matter of personal comfort level on what you choose. People should discuss this more
Did I miss something? Let me know and I'll add it in.
Do you disagree with something in here? Cool, post it and discuss it. All that means is I get to learn too!
P.S. This MU is even. (Message is cosigned by Mr. R)
