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MK v Zelda is definitely not 80:20

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Jaice has recently picked up Zelda. The generally accepted MU numbers are said to be well in MK's favour regardless of stage. (80:20 according to the BBR's information)

For some reason, Jaice's Zelda is ridiculously good against my MK and I don't understand why. I checked the MU threads, and some of the Zelda mains believe it to be closer to 60:40, but no one has actual evidence in either videos or theory as to why this is the case. All Zelda mains say they change to another character against MK so no one ever plays the MU.

I am consistently beating his Olimar, and not his Zelda, why? I watched Earl play Jaice down at reloaded with Jaice using Zelda and Earl didn't seem to enjoy the MU either.

Does anyone know how to beat this low tier character without switching to another character that isn't as good as MK, but seems so much easier to beat Zelda with?
 
Ghostbone

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Nah it's pretty terrible for Zelda, and the BBR doesn't use ratios like 80:20 so where are you getting your information?

Just don't approach her, and don't try to cancel out din's with your attacks (just avoid it).
Also her movement is terrible, her grab OoS is really slow, so take advantage of those things.
And don't fall into up-smash, if you get hit by f-smash, just hold up and you should get out most of the time. (or just SDI as much as you can) Be careful of d-smash, which is an ok gtfo move (by Zelda's standards anyway). She can't do anything to you if you're below her, so your aim in the match-up should be to get her off-stage or above you and punish hard.
It would mainly be a match-up inexperience problem you're having, you don't know Zelda's options well enough evidently.

As for a really easy character to beat her (that isn't MK...), you could use Falco I guess. Olimar and G&W are also reeeaaaally bad for her.
Edit: Oh wait you said without switching, nevermind.
 
Attila_

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cheap tactics work on bad characters. a lot of the time, there is at least one thing that they are completely helpless against.

work out why they're bad, spam something, and they can't do anything.
 
Dekar289

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they should do a smash bros game with traditional fighter characters
and make a traditional fighting game with smash bros characters
 
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I never try to out fight the dins fire. I have tried silly nado tactics but because of the character weight etc, Zelda pops out amazingly well, most of the time on the first hit.

I can beat Jaice but I have to play ultra ultra USA to beat it, and even then that doesn't always work. The discussion room says to get the lead and plank, which obviously doesn't work with a LGL.

Her grab out of shield is terrible yeh, but her dsmash comes out on the first or second frame. The dodge animation Zelda has is ridiculous. She is invincible on frame before she starts the sidestep. When I get the lead I keep it, but I find it hard to get atm unles I use just about any other character lol.

Wish there were some videos of the MU online, but there's nothing.
 
KuroganeHammer

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yer, don't try to beat out Din's with MK. It's dumb.

I think the Zelda players try to convince people that's the best thing to do so they can win matches. :troll:


:zelda:
 
Splice

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The other day Afropony beat me with Bowser and I was using Falco.
I even used the ultra CG -> Dair of ultra winning
but even then i still lost.

I think the MU chart needs to be revised it's obviously not correct

Also; Zeldas Dsmash comes out on frame 4 or 6 iirc. It's fast but it isn't one of MKs aerials, so dont go saying it comes out on first/2nd frame lol
 
MTGod

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One of the biggest traps I found about certain MK mains is that they play the metagame too much - every match up they play the stock MK that planks/zones/plays how you should play MK. That's what you need to do in top tier play, but when you're playing against low tier characters nearly all of the time you don't -need- to play like that. What's worse, playing campy (like you're meant to) allows the lower tier character to set up their little tricks that no one knows how to deal with, which gets you in a disadvantageous position. I even saw this happen a few times to M2K when Trill (ROB) and I (Lucas) played him.

Step out of your mind a bit, and play ScrubbyKnight - the rushdown, shuttle loop-looping, roll-dodging spastic ball of evil that all the randoms at anime conventions know and love. At worst you'll have a massive laugh, and more than likely discover that one move that beats out everything Zelda has (Shuttle Loop?)
 
KuroganeHammer

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A decent player won't fall for Shuttle Loop spam.

I highly doubt even MK wants to be above Zelda.
 
Ghostbone

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AD3PT said:
I never try to out fight the dins fire. I have tried silly nado tactics but because of the character weight etc, Zelda pops out amazingly well, most of the time on the first hit.
Click to expand...
Tornado better? She's floaty so you could just refrain from using it at all in this match-up if you want.
I can beat Jaice but I have to play ultra ultra USA to beat it, and even then that doesn't always work. The discussion room says to get the lead and plank, which obviously doesn't work with a LGL.
Click to expand...
You could always play rushdown MK
Her grab out of shield is terrible yeh, but her dsmash comes out on the first or second frame. The dodge animation Zelda has is ridiculous. She is invincible on frame before she starts the sidestep. When I get the lead I keep it, but I find it hard to get atm unles I use just about any other character lol.
Click to expand...
Her d-smash is fast but I'm pretty sure it's slower than MK's d-smash >.>
And her spot-dodge is average lol. 25 frames, invincible from frames 2-20, like most characters.
Wish there were some videos of the MU online, but there's nothing.
Click to expand...
Go ask the MK boards what to do in the match-up I guess.
 
Rianogard

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ghostbone said:
Her d-smash is fast but I'm pretty sure it's slower than MK's d-smash >.>
And her spot-dodge is average lol. 25 frames, invincible from frames 2-20, like most characters.
Click to expand...
Her down smash is equal with ROB's for being the fastest in the game. The time it takes for a MK to jump and use an aerial is - I believe - slower than her just using dsmash. Also, her odd dodge animation can be a bit of a put off when trying to attack her.

Aerodrome said:
A decent player won't fall for Shuttle Loop spam. I highly doubt even MK wants to be above Zelda.
Click to expand...
Very true. Anyone staying above Zelda is asking for punishment.

Shaya said:
You have issues with zelda? Just don't approach. 8 minute games are the norm if you want to really make it helpless.
Click to expand...
I believe Zelda is one of the best anti-planker/sharkers in the game. The blast radius of her side-b is very useful in this situation.

If a Zelda can learn how to fair and bair very well, then she becomes a very decent character.
 
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There is no rush down option on Zelda trust me. I tried it yesterday, Arrow tried **** to, and unless I take Jaice to a counter the MU is definitely closer to 60:40 (allowing for my scrubness).

Her dodge is normal, but her animation in the dodge is ridiculous. She doesn't move for the first few frames of invincibility (Or she doesn't seem too).

The MK and Zelda boards both say that MK should never shuttle loop in this MU, ever. They also say if you play a silly anime convention MK you'll be beaten. Which is why I want to know how it can possibly be 80:20 when that is the same MU given to Falco vs Ganon, or if you look at the new MU chart the MU is considered the same as MK vs Ganon.
 
KuroganeHammer

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The matchup is 80:20 because the BBR hate Zelda.

True story.

Who thinks it's 60:40 anyway?

iirc DarkMusician thinks it should be 80:20 at the minimum, 90:10 maximum, but I'm not sure if that's him being serious or just being melodramatic.
 
xXArrowXx

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lol no way, its probably 50 50 XD
i seemed to do better when i was winning =P since i dont have to approach =p.. didn't do that much tho since it was friendlies
 
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No Zelda out ranges it with fsmash and her own down tilt which trips or pops you up into something like an fsmash or a sliding usmash. I tried that too. I'll see how Jaice v Earl goes when they play next, no doubt Jaice will want a Money match using Zelda against him at either ACL or BAM.
 
Attila_

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adept/jaice, why are saying such silly things just after the community was growing respect for your comments?

zelda is trash. she is not decent, regardless how whether or not the player knows how to use bair/fair.

you don't have to time her out. hell, i rush down nova's zelda with any character i use.

adept, if you're losing to jaice, did you ever consider that, perhaps, it's just because he knows you too damn well?

i remember, once upon a time, tibor's diddy went even with my snake, but was losing to my captain falcon. that doesnt mean that tibor is bad, nor does it mean that my falcon was good, nor does it mean that falcon > diddy. it does, however, indicate that i knew tibor's diddy really well, while he had no idea what my falcon was going to do.

i'm assuming you kids are stuck in the same situation.
 
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I am not trying to promote Zelda up the tier list or anything anywhere close to that. (I know that wobbling and Marth fsmash can't be compared :troll: ) My original point was to see why the MU is 80:20 and why I can use say D3 to beat it easily and the MU is 60:40 whereas I struggle ridiculously hard with the MU that is apparently a walk in the park.

Rush downs on Zelda are hell easy with any number of characters. Snake against Zelda is easy money. I just wanted some direction on how to play it from the MK perspective as no one anywhere on the boards seems to know anything about the MU or has any experience with it.

Don't judge these comments so harshly, I just want to know why and how the matches are so difficult to win. Everything everyone has told me so far are just guesses and half hearted attempts at what people think might work. Shaya knows what it's about, but even if you play patient the entire match, it is still a really close and tight game between us.
 
Attila_

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If you wanted serious assistance, posting this thread in the Woxy Woom probably wasn't the best idea.
 
Rianogard

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earla said:
i accept mm
Click to expand...
Are you coming to ACL?

shmot said:
adept/jaice, why are saying such silly things just after the community was growing respect for your comments?

zelda is trash. she is not decent, regardless how whether or not the player knows how to use bair/fair.

you don't have to time her out. hell, i rush down nova's zelda with any character i use.

adept, if you're losing to jaice, did you ever consider that, perhaps, it's just because he knows you too damn well?

i remember, once upon a time, tibor's diddy went even with my snake, but was losing to my captain falcon. that doesnt mean that tibor is bad, nor does it mean that my falcon was good, nor does it mean that falcon > diddy. it does, however, indicate that i knew tibor's diddy really well, while he had no idea what my falcon was going to do.

i'm assuming you kids are stuck in the same situation.
Click to expand...
ACL is being held at the track and field place again, which allows you to keep training even while you are away. So if you come to ACL, MM Zelda vs Snake?
 
Grim Tuesday

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AD3PT said:
I know that wobbling and Marth fsmash can't be compared :troll:
Click to expand...
Wobbles the Phoenix made the exact same comparison, thankyou very much.

Australia can't understand that comparison is not synonymous with "exactly the same". I said that Marth's tippered Fsmash can lead to a KO at low percents, just as a grab from ICs can. That was the ONLY comparison I was making. To disagree with that would be stupid.

Long story short; You guys are collectively herping up the wrong derp and should drop this meme that only serves to show your own naivety.

/rant
 
Splice

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Don't worry Grim, I'm pretty sure Matt is just trying to compensate for Attila's low opinion of him, by putting you down. That's how it reads anyway. :/

Uhh I learnt the Zelda MU ages ago because of Gary "The Legend" Mooney
Bait mistakes and abuse sheild slide from Dins for surprises
Being vertically above her is bad but diagonal is maintainable.
and SDI is hard, ive probably forgotten how to to that to all those important attacks now.

Aren't you coming to BaM2K11 Jaice? There is a house here just for you.
I would like to MM your Zelda too if I can use GaW (I cant use MK sorry. If it's any consolation I actually think MK has an easier time than GaW does against Zelda, from what I can tell, + theorycraft)
 
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I have no idea about Melee Grim so don't stress. I was merely saying, don't take it as seriously as you have been because I'm not starting to instigate a revolution or go against the norm, I just want pointers. Your melee example was just the easiest to pull reference too sorry :)
 
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