Back Room Tier List Opinions

ballin4life · Sep 20, 2011

All credit to Nintendude1189.

The Idea:

Nintendude1189 said:
I'm personally kind of surprised this hasn't been done yet, but out of curiosity, I want to do it. The way this is gonna work is everyone PMs me a character rankings list. Simply number the characters 1 through 12, where 1 is the best character and 12 is the worst. Don't separate the characters into tiers. I'm doing it through PM so that nobody's opinion gets biased. When I receive votes from everyone, I'll present the stats similarly to how it was done for the 2010 MBR Tier List.

We don't have to release this tier list as the "Official SBR Tier List," nor do I think we should unless there's a good reason to. I am mainly doing this out of curiosity and to see how different it is from the community tier list we already have.

When ranking characters, please take into consideration the current ruleset. For example, acknowledge that with stage striking, a character like Fox won't get to play on Hyrule the first match and thus will likely always play on at least 2 small stages during a set.

The Results:

Nintendude1189 said:
So I've compiled all of the votes and extracted some statistics. Here's what I came up with:

[collapse="Tier List"]

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[collapse="Graph"]

[/collapse]
[collapse="Votes"]

Color coded to highlight the extreme votes:

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In terms of order, it's exactly the same as the current tier list except Jiggly / Ness are switched and Link / Luigi are tied. Discuss.

Note: Kirby also jumped Fox.

Surri/A$ please delete thread or edit OP if this shouldn't have been posted.

asianaussie · Sep 20, 2011

As long as Nintendude gets the primary credit this should be fine.

Take this list however you will.

ciaza · Sep 20, 2011

It looks fine but I want to know if everyone who voted created their own Match-Up chart, instead of going: "I think X character is better than Y character in general".

I don't think this should be official though, at least until my initial question is answered.

EDIT: DW I got around to reading The New Tier List thread just now. Eh... I still don't like it. I want to read the discussion.

I would like to know Moogle's reasoning as to why Luigi is SEVENTH

kys · Sep 20, 2011

Ness got waay too much love. *Stares at Surri*

If the backroom had a thread where they discuss each matchup on each stage and THEN gave their rankings after a complete discussion with all members involved, I don't see why it couldn't be made official.

If said thread already exists, ignore ^this and make it viewable to everyone?

ballin4life · Sep 20, 2011

kys, my OP contains a list of all back room members

ciaza said:
It looks fine but I want to know if everyone who voted created their own Match-Up chart, instead of going: "I think X character is better than Y character in general".

I don't think this should be official though, at least until my initial question is answered.

EDIT: DW I got around to reading The New Tier List thread just now. Eh... I still don't like it. I want to read the discussion.

I would like to know Moogle's reasoning as to why Luigi is SEVENTH

ciaza, I don't think everyone created their own matchup chart, but remember we do all know about the current matchup chart

ciaza · Sep 20, 2011

Pre' sure that's why he said he was dum lol.

ballin4life said:
ciaza, I don't think everyone created their own matchup chart, but remember we do all know about the current matchup chart

That's great and all, but I would've liked it to be more concrete. Whatever I spose.

ballin4life · Sep 20, 2011

oh yeah also ciaza, there wasn't any particular discussion before we sent in our opinions. Nintendude wanted to compile what we all independently thought

Also, I think this could be an interesting thing for the main forum to do.

ciaza · Sep 20, 2011

Well I guess the main goal was acheived, but as I said I wouldn't want this to be the official list then, mainly because of lack of discussion. Yes I know that in the MU chart thread discussion never got completed along with a myriad of other problems, but still broken (imo) system > no system

Peek~ · Sep 20, 2011

I like this idea and I like the end list.

Except for Yoshi remaining unchanged, thats my only picky part

A$ Luigi positioning is very odd and Surri really loves Ness.

asianaussie · Sep 20, 2011

ciaza said:
That's great and all, but I would've liked it to be more concrete. Whatever I spose.

because adding more matchup values, most of which people will not have had great experience in, is gonna make it more solid :|

a single outlier (A$'s luigi) bumped luigi up to being equal with link, though the SD does set him a bit apart

matchup charts...maybe soon, that or miniguides or an EPIC DOUBLES TIER LIST

cheeseball341 · Sep 20, 2011

Mario - 7.5
DK - 8.5
Link - 9

That's right. Link is a god if you can space well and know what to do when an opportunity arises. Poor recovery and grab hinder him, but his weight stops him from flying too far at low percents, and he has the two of the best projectiles in the game, one offering significant hitstun and good range, and the other a variety of flightpaths.

Samus - 6
Yoshi - 8.5
Kirby - 9
Fox - 8.5
Pika - 9.5
Luigi - 7
C. Falcon - 8
Ness - 9
Jigglypuff - 8.5

I find it so hard to rate low. Everyone's a great char, in my opinion.

Looks like aa changed his opinion a little bit.

blaze3927 · Sep 20, 2011

imo thatlooks fairly good.
i'd hotly contest:

dk, jiggs, ness

and less so

kirby, fox

Olikus · Sep 20, 2011

Now its out! Time to critisizing =D.

The top turned out fine. Its obvious we dont need MU to understand that the rat got this.

But the bottom would most likely be different if we had taken each MU on each stage. Link gets so much worse on every other stage than hyrule. Samus and Luigi dont. I would be really supriced if link wasnt on bottom after going through that long discussion.

But hey w/e this isnt an accurate list, only a suggestion so i wout put up to much flame on it seeing how it was made.

Edit: funny that kuz didnt change anything but posted the old list

dandan · Sep 20, 2011

the stages/matchups do come into play, link would be higher if it was hyrule alone (like way higher) and we considered the current ruleset that allows you to ban hyrule first match and thus he was lowered to were he is.

The Star King · Sep 20, 2011

copypasta:

My list is so mainstream. Makes the inner hipster in me sad. I should have put Luigi below Samus or something.

Mario isn't above Falcon, so I'm not forced to do SOMETHING DRASTIC. Or something. Yeah.

Things that surprised me:
-I thought everybody was going to put Kirby above Fox.
-My Puff vote being average, when I'm supposed to be the Puff lover or something.
-A$'s Luigi at 7.
-Samus not being unanimous worst.
-Boomfan putting Ness at 11. I thought Peek made you "see the light" or whatever?
-Boomfan putting Puff at 7. I thought you were a Puff hater for some reason. Maybe I've got you all wrong >_>
-Surri and Nintendude putting DK at 10.
-Surri putting Ness at 6.
-Me putting Luigi above Link. I know it's kind of silly to be surprised by your own list, but I would really like to know WTF I was thinking. I really regret that now. Ugh, Luigi is so bad.

Also, I didn't notice this before, but this game is too balanced for five tiers.

Boomfan thinks Link is the third best character on Hyrule BTW.

Olikus · Sep 20, 2011

The Star King said:
-Boomfan putting Puff at 7. I thought you were a Puff hater for some reason. Maybe I've got you all wrong >_>

Boomfan thinks Link is the third best character on Hyrule BTW.

Seems boomfan had isai in his mind when he made his list.

Fish641 · Sep 20, 2011

The gaps between the tiers seem a bit arbitrary. I mean, the gap between pika and kirby is the same as between yoshi and DK, and the difference between Samus and Luigi is more than Pika - Kirby. Why not just consolidate S and A? That would make more sense than having a single character tier (although Pika definitely is the best).

ballin4life · Sep 20, 2011

Fish641 said:
The gaps between the tiers seem a bit arbitrary. I mean, the gap between pika and kirby is the same as between yoshi and DK, and the difference between Samus and Luigi is more than Pika - Kirby. Why not just consolidate S and A? That would make more sense than having a single character tier (although Pika definitely is the best).

The gaps in average vote aren't really a good way to separate out the tiers. For example, Samus shouldn't necessarily be in her own bottom tier, even though that is almost the biggest gap in the average vote. Just because almost everyone voted Samus 12th doesn't mean we think Samus is WAY worse than whichever character we voted 11th.

TANK64 · Sep 20, 2011

Obviously this is the REAL list... because this is my list.

but yea, cool thing. I like the idea of the private voting.

3mmanu3lrc · Sep 20, 2011

The Star King said:
Boomfan thinks Link is the third best character on Hyrule BTW.

Link is awesome on Hyrule.
imo, the only characters above him are Pika and Fox on that stage.

Fish641 · Sep 20, 2011

ballin4life said:
The gaps in average vote aren't really a good way to separate out the tiers. For example, Samus shouldn't necessarily be in her own bottom tier, even though that is almost the biggest gap in the average vote. Just because almost everyone voted Samus 12th doesn't mean we think Samus is WAY worse than whichever character we voted 11th.

So why not consolidate S and A (and even possibly B)? With such a small cast, I feel like having such small tiers defeats the purpose of segregating the characters

Mr Wizzrobe · Sep 20, 2011

ballin4life said:
Also, I think this could be an interesting thing for the main forum to do.

I concur. The data from the main forum would be very interesting to see.

The Star King · Sep 20, 2011

I agree with ballin.

It should be like three tiers, maybe four if you really want to give Pika his own. And Samus shouldn't be all alone

clubbadubba · Sep 20, 2011

I feel like the first 5 or 6 characters are legitimately 3 tiers. S = Pika, A = Kirby + Fox, B = Falcon + Mario (+Yoshi maybe). Then the bottom tier of Samus + Luigi + Link I think is pretty good. Then you have DK +puff + ness above them. To me those are 5 distinct tiers and combining further would put characters on different competitive levels in the same tier.

ballin4life said:
Also, I think this could be an interesting thing for the main forum to do.

I totally suggested this in the form of a matchup chart instead a while ago, but nobody liked the idea. I'm in!

asianaussie · Sep 20, 2011

Cheers said:
Looks like aa changed his opinion a little bit.

i was so good back then, believe it

dunno why olikus is so critical

ciaza · Sep 20, 2011

If this is official then this is the day B tier transcends into a "high tier", excluding it from low tier tourney's. Unless people say no and it is allowed which would mean this is the day Falcon and Mario started to dominate low tier tournaments =3

I don't like the idea of having less than the number of tiers we have though. One glance at each characters mean ranking and placement into a tier shows that they are distinguished quite nicely.

EDIT: To be fair there is a gap between Yoshi and DK that is just as large between Yoshi and Mario but yet Yoshi is not in his own tier so I guess it could be changed.

The Star King · Sep 20, 2011

Like ballin said, just because one character is agreed to be better than another character by almost everyone doesn't mean the better one is WAY better.

I personally feel Yoshi and DK are pretty much the same.

I would die inside if Falcon was allowed in low tiers. I don't care about Mario though.

I still think there are too many tiers. In the current order, it should be maybe something like 4 4 4 (no, I'm not just dividing the cast by 3 - those actually seem like good tiers to me). Maybe give Pikachu his own tier and make it 1 3 4 4.

ciaza · Sep 20, 2011

That's a little arbitrary though isn't it? 1 3 4 4 would put Fox & Falcon, and Ness & Link in the same tier even though there is a 1.5 and 1.71 gap between them respectively. I mean, granted the cut-off numbers for each tier is probably arbitrary as well we should still have some sort of figure to separate them.

The Star King · Sep 20, 2011

Yeah, it was arbitrary, but I don't care much about average ranking in terms of grouping tiers. Glancing at the Fox Falcon example, all that tells me is that the disagreements in the Fox/Kirby order widens the gap between Fox and Falcon, not that Fox is much better than Falcon.

This simply isn't good way to separate tiers. Let's hypothetically imagine that the gaps between each character is larger, but they're in the same order. Now, this will probably smooth out the differences in opinion, but other than that the tiering would be the same, despite the worse balance overall. See what I'm saying?

I don't really have a good suggestion for separating them in a non-arbitrary way, though.

Nintendude · Sep 21, 2011

While I'm aware this isn't a good means of dividing up the tiers, it is worth noting that there are clear trends between tiers if you look at the range of votes. No character in C tier was ranked better than 6th and every character in D tier was ranked worst by at least 1 SBR member. My justification for putting Pikachu in his own tier is that he has no matchups worse than even, regardless of stage, and is unanimously agreed upon to be the best.

Sempiternity · Sep 21, 2011

This is ****ing great. I ****ing love stats and ****ing graphs.

NovaSmash · Sep 21, 2011

the tiers are fine the way they are

t3h Icy · Sep 21, 2011

Can this be official? :D

jimmyjoe · Sep 21, 2011

Nintendude1189 said:
While I'm aware this isn't a good means of dividing up the tiers, it is worth noting that there are clear trends between tiers if you look at the range of votes. No character in C tier was ranked better than 6th and every character in D tier was ranked worst by at least 1 SBR member. My justification for putting Pikachu in his own tier is that he has no matchups worse than even, regardless of stage, and is unanimously agreed upon to be the best.

Good points, and I do like the way these tiers are divided. Let's do a strictly D tier showdown!
I'm totally in for the idea of all of us doing this in the main forum as well, but here's a thought:

nm decided to start a new thread for this idea as it's expanding to something more complex..

SubparSmashBrother · Sep 21, 2011

Hey icy do you still do that rby 2010 thing? You should do something like this there and come up with a list of the top 20 rby pokemon, just a suggestion

The Star King · Sep 22, 2011

http://www.smogon.com/rb/tiers/ou

MechaWave · Sep 23, 2011

It's about ****ing time.

NixxxoN · Sep 24, 2011

i wonder why tiers keep on being discussed for ever and ever? what are exactly the benefits of knwoing the perfect tier list, i dont know.

Fish641 · Sep 24, 2011

Data junkies / people that like to organize their world

Sangoku · Sep 24, 2011

NixxxoN said:
i wonder why tiers keep on being discussed for ever and ever? what are exactly the benefits of knwoing the perfect tier list, i dont know.

I think it's mainly for new players to competitive smash. They can have some information about the game.

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