We should win this... right up until the point you get grabbed...
Problem Moves:
Bair:
[COLLAPSE=" "]This move is somewhat overrated imo. The move itself it phenomenal; it's long range, quick coming out, and a large (and lingering) hitbox. However, unfortunately for DDD (fortunate for everyone else), his aerial mobility is terrible. While bair is a great move, his ability to really abuse it is limited by his lack of overall mobility.
It's similar to Diddy's fair, Wolf's bair, etc etc. in regards to how to beat it and how it trades with moves. Its range is smaller in relation to DDD's body when compared to the others. It will trade or beat your fair, however it will lose to nair. If you find yourself in the air vs DDD with his back towards you, just *retreat* nair. Or, if he did a rising bair, FF air dodge will also work.
Trades with:
Fair, jab, approaching nair
Loses to:
Retreating nair, ftilt, bair
If you buffer it OoS, bair is punishable by almost every move we have (obviously it is dependent on positioning of DDD).[/COLLAPSE]
Ftilt:
[COLLAPSE=" "]This is probably the second most annoying thing DDD has in the MU (second to his CG). It's fairly quick on start-up and very long range. It also will beat fair rather easily and will hit your landings of whiffed aerials easily. However, it has a good bit of lag at the end of it so if he uses it when you're grounded it's a really easy punish.
Shield (powershield and normal) both allow you to punish ftilt with Dancing Blade. Tipper fsmash is guaranteed (spacing dependent of course) on both normal and powershield.
Nair will beat his ftilt similar to beating ZSS's dsmash and side-B just as nair will beat Lucario's fsmash as well.
However, nair beating his ftilt is a specific spacing, so if that's out of the question:
DDD's ftilt is only safe on hit if you get hit with the head of the hammer. If you get hit with the handle, it's not safe on hit- until high percents where you can be grabbed from it- and you can fair/nair him for it.[/COLLAPSE]
Inhale:
[COLLAPSE=" "]Inhale gives DDD super armor frames (takes damage but no knockback) when you get put into the initial suck-up animation.
However, as it doesn't kick in until then, nair/fsmash/dsmash will all three beat inhale if timed properly. There may be others but those are the three ones you're most likely to use.
Shield, air dodge, rolls, and spotdodge all will make it so you don't get sucked into his inhale.
While DDD is offstage and recovering high, standing too close to the ledge opens the possibility of DDD swallowciding you (especially if he's losing by a bit on the same stock).
While juggling DDD, rising aerials can be inhaled easily. So, make sure you FF everything.
Inhale's largest uses against Marth are:
[COLLAPSE="As an offstage tool"]It offers the possibility of a swallowcide if DDD gets caught in a "worst case scenario" situation (out of jumps and needing to recover through you or something).
It can also "pull" you farther away from the stage; possibly to the point where you can no longer safely recover (especially if you have already used your second jump).[/COLLAPSE]
and
[COLLAPSE="As a landing tool"]It covers grabbing and *likely* DBing his landing.
B-reverse inhale is more likely to happen than a normal inhale.
Watch out if they jump for no reason other than to turn around. If so, then inhale is probably in your future. This is especially true if you've been watching their jumping habits and know what jump count they will land on.[/COLLAPSE][/COLLAPSE]
Alright, now for the most annoying, and one of the most important aspects of the match-up, DDD's dthrow CG.
[COLLAPSE=" "]Unless you are under the top BF platform or under the taller of the two statues on the second part of Castle Siege, trying to Dolphin Slash(DS) out of his CG is not a good option to try regularly. It's incredibly easy to bait and results in you getting fsmashed/regrabbed into dash attack/fsmash to punish the RCO (recovery carry over) lag from the dthrow.
Additionally, I wouldn't recommend trying to spotdodge to get out of the CG. If you spotdodge you set up the perfect timing for DDD to dash attack you. If it happens near the ledge, dash attack has the ability to kill you fairly early.
F-roll is a good option as well. Few people do it, and while if read you get CGed back across the stage, the rewards you get from it are high.
So, how do you make sure you get out of the CG (assuming he messes up of course)? It's simple! Just hold away from DDD. If he messes up you just walk out of the CG and then he falls on his face and you **** him. However, a regrab is possible for him if he just runs a little longer. Mix in B-rolls, jumping, etc[/COLLAPSE]
So, for a quick TL; DR and reference chart of DDD's mix-ups out of a CG and how it beats which of your options that you're attempting to use to get out:
If you "x" out of a CG, DDD can "y":
Spotdodge, dash attack/dsmash
DS, utilt/regrab (into ****), fsmash, aerial
Froll, CG you the other way, aerial, dsmash on prediction
Hold away from DDD, he has to dash a little farther to get to you for a regrab.
If he predicts what you're going to do incorrectly (especially near the ledge), you will win in that situation and be able to get a large advantage one DDD.
Now, that's just what to do when already in it. How do you avoid the CG in the first place? Safe pokes and zoning different for when you are fighting DDD when compared to almost every other character in the game.
Poking and Zoning DDD:
[COLLAPSE=" "]The first thing that needs to be said is that falling fairs (especially FFed) are NOT safe. DDD has the potential to grab them if they're misspaced... at all.
Now, that's not to say fair doesn't have it's place in the MU though. Instead of falling fairs, you want to do rising (retreating) FH fairs.
Alongside with FH fair, "perfect retreating SH fair" [as Kadaj calls it] is a good thing to mix in as you do have to deal with landing a LOT if you do nothing but FH retreating fair and it can get predictable and ftilted.
~Kadaj
Usually, putting yourself in the air above your opponent is a bad thing. However, DDD has terrible mobility. Between your air speed, double jump, platforms (since you should have FD banned, if not you're a bad), B-reversals, wavebounces, slow fall vs FF, etc. FH rising fair is *essentially* safe on shield.
Landing against DDD is quite simple. Fair is not the best option since it's possible to get grabbed and easy to punish on PS with a sliding shield, so, you nair. Nair has better range, better shieldpush, and- unlike fair- can't be PSed (both hits). However, max speed retreating fair, tippered is still near impossible for DDD to punish. Nair is still easier though imo.[/COLLAPSE]
Juggling DDD/trapping DDD's landing:
DDD has very few landing options and super low aerial mobility. As a result, racking up damage via juggling and trapping his landing is really easy and effective. So, make sure you get under him as quickly, and as often as you can.
[COLLAPSE=" "]FF everything you do.
If he dairs you, just SDI out and uair him on hit.
FF everything.
His nair outright loses to FFuair.
Be careful of his FF (best in the game) so get under/level with you so he can land/bair you. If attempting to juggle him, you HAVE to FF EVERYTHING.
Bair beats most everything he has, including his FF aerials, fairly well as long as you fall with him and aren't jumping at him. Be aware of the potential of DDD just dashing in though to force you to lose stage control. While it's unlikely that DDD can straight out punish it, loss of stage control is detrimental to the MU.
If he tries to land with bair, just shieldgrab it/usmash OoS it. It's super laggy.
Don't get hit by nair @ low %s. It leads to a grab for him.
Be careful of Inhale as a landing (B-reversed or otherwise). DS it OoS.
Walk when you're trying to get trap his landing/get under him when he's high up. His air speed is horrendous. Your walk is more than fast enough to get where you want to go.
Oh, and FF EVERYTHING.[/COLLAPSE]
DDD on the ledge:
DDD is similar to Marth in one of the most important ways in the MU. He is balls on the ledge. If he's on the ledge he should be taking a LOT of damage every time.
[COLLAPSE=" "]His roll from the ledge is garbage. Just hit him back out on reaction.
His fair has good horizontal and vertical range but is fairly telegraphed. Watch out for it and don't get swatted across to the opposite side of the stage.
His uair is a slight problem though. It has HUGE vertical range and a fairly large horizontal range. It's a bit harder to see coming and can be used safely while rising to cover him getting back to the ledge (assuming that you shielded/got away from the first one. Otherwise he'd just get back onstage for free). Luckily, it's a multi-hit move and fairly easy to SDI out of. So, even if you get caught by it, get out of it before the last hit, or, if you're amazing, SDI off the stage and DS stagespike him. Whichever floats your boat.
His inhale shouldn't be a problem. It's hugely telegraphed and you can just shield as he falls down super quickly for no reason.
Bair... ehhh, idk. I don't see anyone getting hit by it that often but it's not surprising if you do imo. Be aware of when he is jumping more than he has to off the ledge. Dtilt his if he pokes out.[/COLLAPSE]
DDD off the stage:
Oh, DDD is bad here. It's so much fun. Rack up damage and gimp him to your heart's content.
[COLLAPSE=" "]Other than DDD's initial mid-air jump, his jumps are not that good. They give very little vertical distance (and because his mobility is awful the horizontal gain is almost none). Once you see his first jump being used be prepared to harass him with fair/nair/bair. If he's below stage level when he uses his first jump, just grab the ledge and keep hold of it (DS regrab trick to make sure you don't get randomly faired or whatever). Force him to use his upB and then just keep knocking him back offstage with no jumps. He'll die eventually. Don't get risky or overextend yourself looking for a quick kill. Just be patient and keep hitting him.
Dair offstage is a great tool here. Even if it doesn't spike him you hit him away from the stage forcing him to use his first jump (assuming he hasn't already) making him far more likely to need to use his upB to recover. Which you should ****.
If DDD's upBs directly vertically next to the ledge and has no jumps left you just got a free stock. Grab him, pummel him until he breaks out and falls down, he'll upB again in the exact same way, regrab, blahblahblah.
Actually, if you're winning and feel like being a huge ****, keep doing it over and over again until you time him out! Or until he kills himself...
On FD, Marth's front foot being on the very tip of the inside arrow puts you as close to the ledge as possible while still outside of DDD's ledge attack (over 100%).
If Marth's foot is on the corner of the inner angle of the outer arrow, you'll be as close to the ledge as possible while still outside his ledge attack range (under 100%).
There are similar markings on most stages, but you shouldn't need them since you should be able to use FD as a reference point and apply it to other stages easily enough.[/COLLAPSE]
Now for other gay parts of the match-up...
Marth on the ledge:
Being in this position is a very very sad place to be and will cause you a lot of frustration. The number one, BIGGEST thing to keep in mind while on the ledge is PATIENCE!
[COLLAPSE=" "]Abuse platforms. If you're on SV wait for the platform to come. After waiting DDD might think you're going to go for the platform so just do a normal stand-up. Mix it up, but make sure you are patient and think about how the platforms will benefit you.
On that note, normal stand-ups are underused. Make them not.
His ftilt, on reaction, will beat most options you have (unless he had his shield up beforehand. In that case I don't think he can react quickly enough to ftilt your normal get-up (assuming he's far enough away where he won't be able to grab you.
Footstool his shield.
Please don't roll. You'll probably just end up getting CGed back the opposite way across the stage and then be forced back onto the ledge. Or, if you have RCO lag, you'll just die (see RCO section).
DS regrabbing is good. He'll get jumpy and act. So, you react to get up. Nair, crossover uair, platforms, whatever.
Wavebouncing DB is fairly safe on his shield as the momentum reversal should push you out of his grab range. Also, while I can't find frame data on it, punishing his grab should not be difficult at all. I believe most characters have a similar cooldown on their grounds (tethers excluded) and I know that Marth's whiffed grab can be fsmashed by MK.
Gliding off the stage with counter:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13350484&postcount=30132
DB away from the ledge into bair isn't recommended unless you already have RCO lag imo. It forces you to DS back to the ledge which will then give you RCO lag.
Ledge get-up-> DS beats his ftilt, but, it's risky.
Marth offstage:
Who doesn't love being in this position as Marth?!?! -_-
[COLLAPSE=" "]After a CG you're likely to be put in here with an fthrow (unless he dthrows in which case you're on the ledge... awesome). It's not unheard of for DDD to come harass you offstage with bairs due to his multiple jumps giving him a lot of room for error and ability to cover space combined with his amazing FF (seriously, why did DDD's FF have to be so good D= ). Make sure that you are very careful with your jump and if it isn't completely necessary that you do not touch your jump button at all.
Once DDD has used his first midair jump though, his subsequent jumps don't give him anywhere near as much vertical height as your second jump will. Double jump air dodge after his first jump is gone isn't that risky as DDD will have an issue keeping up.
Early upBs are great (as long as you're sure you can reach the ledge). Obviously it beats bair due to invincibility frames and if you catch him off guard under the stage of during a FF input you get a free stock via stagespike/him DIing terribly.
Just like always, don't try to beat his bair with your fair. You lose. You might end up dead. Just don't do it.[/COLLAPSE]
RCO lag:
Everyone's favorite aspect of this character! Yayyyy
RCO lag is gay, and few characters can punish Marth's RCO lag as well as DDD. However, luckily Marth has amazing tools to be able to circumvent the RCO lag from being able to be punished.
[COLLAPSE=" "]RCO in this MU is actually quite similar to being Wario at kill percents vs a DK w/ a 9-wind charged up. If Wario gets grabbed, he's going to die. However, Wario has more than enough tools to avoid the grab. Land w/ nair, he can't grab you. Abuse platforms. Etc etc
Do NOT Dolphin Slash onstage. It's asking to get grabbed->****.
If there are platforms and you want to get rid of your RCO lag, get to a high platform. You'll be uaired and just SDI out.
Land behind DDD with uair.
Just stay safe and away from DDD. Between Marth's ability and DDD's lack of it, you should be able to escape most situations where RCO would be heavily punished.[/COLLAPSE]
DDD approaching you:
Alright, so you got a lead. Now DDD has to approach you, or try to camp you out with Waddles (yeah... okay).
[COLLAPSE=" "]DDD can:
Dash/walk-> shield
Dash/walk-> spotdodge
Rolls
Walking Ftilt
Grab
General gameplay:
Random information that didn't fit in the other situations
[COLLAPSE=" "]
If you get a grab on DDD at 0%, you have fthrowx3-> dair (best choice if you're close enough to the ledge), fsmash (best choice for putting him offstage if you're not close enough to dair), and usmash (best choice is fsmash won't send him offstage or if you're really comfortable juggling DDD).
If you get the dair offstage, follow him down and footstool->spike if he starts jumping up for a free kill. The only way to avoid that is for DDD to immediately upB. If he does that, get back on stage and start edgeguarding/ledgetrapping him.
When you're not zoning out DDD w/ FH fairs and running away, fighting DDD is a wonderfully fun game of mix-ups and crossovers! DDD's OoS options (other than his amazing grabs) aren't that scary.
*Note: Do not try to cross-up DDD when you're at kill percents. The threat of utilt killing you makes the risk/reward too heavily skewed.*
So, you all know that FH fair is a much better option than falling fair/SHfair. However, because it's habit, you may find yourself SHing regardless. What do? Easy, just FF into grab. DDD is probably waiting for the fair/nair hitconfirm to react. Just grab him.
DDDs, in general, love their shield a LOT. As a result it's easier to grab DDD than most other characters.
FH Dair OoS is a really good way to get out of situations where you're feeling pressured. Between Marth's air speed, dair's shield stun, and DDD's lack of mobility, it is very difficult to punish Marth's rising dair on shield.
Speaking of dair, everyone knows that FH dair (buffered) auto-cancels on the platforms above you on BF. DDD's dair auto-cancels in the same way. Don't be caught off guard.
Spaced dtilt is safe on shield. However, if you plan on using dtilt you have to make sure it's on your terms. Dtilt loses to dash-> shield and PS.
Platform camping is really good vs DDD. BF makes it so it's near impossible for him to hit you (watch out for bair and SDI uair just in case though) and SV lets you waste a lot of time and help positioning a lot.
Your air speed is almost as fast as DDD's full run speed. As a result, changing directions in the air while he is dashing or running makes it near impossible for him to keep up with you.
SDIing his uair/dair isn't that hard. Make sure you can do it.
Oh, and in case I didn't reference it enough throughout, DDD's mobility is AWFUL. Yours isn't. Abuse this fact as much as possible. This is how you win.[/COLLAPSE]
Thanks a lot to Kadaj and Junk for looking this over and offering their comments.
Problem Moves:
Bair:
[COLLAPSE=" "]This move is somewhat overrated imo. The move itself it phenomenal; it's long range, quick coming out, and a large (and lingering) hitbox. However, unfortunately for DDD (fortunate for everyone else), his aerial mobility is terrible. While bair is a great move, his ability to really abuse it is limited by his lack of overall mobility.
It's similar to Diddy's fair, Wolf's bair, etc etc. in regards to how to beat it and how it trades with moves. Its range is smaller in relation to DDD's body when compared to the others. It will trade or beat your fair, however it will lose to nair. If you find yourself in the air vs DDD with his back towards you, just *retreat* nair. Or, if he did a rising bair, FF air dodge will also work.
Trades with:
Fair, jab, approaching nair
Loses to:
Retreating nair, ftilt, bair
If you buffer it OoS, bair is punishable by almost every move we have (obviously it is dependent on positioning of DDD).[/COLLAPSE]
Ftilt:
[COLLAPSE=" "]This is probably the second most annoying thing DDD has in the MU (second to his CG). It's fairly quick on start-up and very long range. It also will beat fair rather easily and will hit your landings of whiffed aerials easily. However, it has a good bit of lag at the end of it so if he uses it when you're grounded it's a really easy punish.
Shield (powershield and normal) both allow you to punish ftilt with Dancing Blade. Tipper fsmash is guaranteed (spacing dependent of course) on both normal and powershield.
Nair will beat his ftilt similar to beating ZSS's dsmash and side-B just as nair will beat Lucario's fsmash as well.
However, nair beating his ftilt is a specific spacing, so if that's out of the question:
FUN FACT!Shaya said:
DDD's ftilt is only safe on hit if you get hit with the head of the hammer. If you get hit with the handle, it's not safe on hit- until high percents where you can be grabbed from it- and you can fair/nair him for it.[/COLLAPSE]
Inhale:
[COLLAPSE=" "]Inhale gives DDD super armor frames (takes damage but no knockback) when you get put into the initial suck-up animation.
However, as it doesn't kick in until then, nair/fsmash/dsmash will all three beat inhale if timed properly. There may be others but those are the three ones you're most likely to use.
Shield, air dodge, rolls, and spotdodge all will make it so you don't get sucked into his inhale.
While DDD is offstage and recovering high, standing too close to the ledge opens the possibility of DDD swallowciding you (especially if he's losing by a bit on the same stock).
While juggling DDD, rising aerials can be inhaled easily. So, make sure you FF everything.
Inhale's largest uses against Marth are:
[COLLAPSE="As an offstage tool"]It offers the possibility of a swallowcide if DDD gets caught in a "worst case scenario" situation (out of jumps and needing to recover through you or something).
It can also "pull" you farther away from the stage; possibly to the point where you can no longer safely recover (especially if you have already used your second jump).[/COLLAPSE]
and
[COLLAPSE="As a landing tool"]It covers grabbing and *likely* DBing his landing.
B-reverse inhale is more likely to happen than a normal inhale.
Watch out if they jump for no reason other than to turn around. If so, then inhale is probably in your future. This is especially true if you've been watching their jumping habits and know what jump count they will land on.[/COLLAPSE][/COLLAPSE]
Alright, now for the most annoying, and one of the most important aspects of the match-up, DDD's dthrow CG.
[COLLAPSE=" "]Unless you are under the top BF platform or under the taller of the two statues on the second part of Castle Siege, trying to Dolphin Slash(DS) out of his CG is not a good option to try regularly. It's incredibly easy to bait and results in you getting fsmashed/regrabbed into dash attack/fsmash to punish the RCO (recovery carry over) lag from the dthrow.
I don't necessarily agree with this, however, I can see it having some merit, as Junk is right that DDDs will, at some point, mess up the CG and this allows you to avoid free damage and get stage control.Junk said:
Additionally, I wouldn't recommend trying to spotdodge to get out of the CG. If you spotdodge you set up the perfect timing for DDD to dash attack you. If it happens near the ledge, dash attack has the ability to kill you fairly early.
F-roll is a good option as well. Few people do it, and while if read you get CGed back across the stage, the rewards you get from it are high.
So, how do you make sure you get out of the CG (assuming he messes up of course)? It's simple! Just hold away from DDD. If he messes up you just walk out of the CG and then he falls on his face and you **** him. However, a regrab is possible for him if he just runs a little longer. Mix in B-rolls, jumping, etc[/COLLAPSE]
So, for a quick TL; DR and reference chart of DDD's mix-ups out of a CG and how it beats which of your options that you're attempting to use to get out:
If you "x" out of a CG, DDD can "y":
Spotdodge, dash attack/dsmash
DS, utilt/regrab (into ****), fsmash, aerial
Froll, CG you the other way, aerial, dsmash on prediction
Hold away from DDD, he has to dash a little farther to get to you for a regrab.
If he predicts what you're going to do incorrectly (especially near the ledge), you will win in that situation and be able to get a large advantage one DDD.
Now, that's just what to do when already in it. How do you avoid the CG in the first place? Safe pokes and zoning different for when you are fighting DDD when compared to almost every other character in the game.
Poking and Zoning DDD:
[COLLAPSE=" "]The first thing that needs to be said is that falling fairs (especially FFed) are NOT safe. DDD has the potential to grab them if they're misspaced... at all.
Now, that's not to say fair doesn't have it's place in the MU though. Instead of falling fairs, you want to do rising (retreating) FH fairs.
Alongside with FH fair, "perfect retreating SH fair" [as Kadaj calls it] is a good thing to mix in as you do have to deal with landing a LOT if you do nothing but FH retreating fair and it can get predictable and ftilted.
~Kadaj
Usually, putting yourself in the air above your opponent is a bad thing. However, DDD has terrible mobility. Between your air speed, double jump, platforms (since you should have FD banned, if not you're a bad), B-reversals, wavebounces, slow fall vs FF, etc. FH rising fair is *essentially* safe on shield.
Landing against DDD is quite simple. Fair is not the best option since it's possible to get grabbed and easy to punish on PS with a sliding shield, so, you nair. Nair has better range, better shieldpush, and- unlike fair- can't be PSed (both hits). However, max speed retreating fair, tippered is still near impossible for DDD to punish. Nair is still easier though imo.[/COLLAPSE]
Juggling DDD/trapping DDD's landing:
DDD has very few landing options and super low aerial mobility. As a result, racking up damage via juggling and trapping his landing is really easy and effective. So, make sure you get under him as quickly, and as often as you can.
[COLLAPSE=" "]FF everything you do.
If he dairs you, just SDI out and uair him on hit.
FF everything.
His nair outright loses to FFuair.
Be careful of his FF (best in the game) so get under/level with you so he can land/bair you. If attempting to juggle him, you HAVE to FF EVERYTHING.
Bair beats most everything he has, including his FF aerials, fairly well as long as you fall with him and aren't jumping at him. Be aware of the potential of DDD just dashing in though to force you to lose stage control. While it's unlikely that DDD can straight out punish it, loss of stage control is detrimental to the MU.
If he tries to land with bair, just shieldgrab it/usmash OoS it. It's super laggy.
Don't get hit by nair @ low %s. It leads to a grab for him.
Be careful of Inhale as a landing (B-reversed or otherwise). DS it OoS.
Walk when you're trying to get trap his landing/get under him when he's high up. His air speed is horrendous. Your walk is more than fast enough to get where you want to go.
Oh, and FF EVERYTHING.[/COLLAPSE]
DDD on the ledge:
DDD is similar to Marth in one of the most important ways in the MU. He is balls on the ledge. If he's on the ledge he should be taking a LOT of damage every time.
[COLLAPSE=" "]His roll from the ledge is garbage. Just hit him back out on reaction.
His fair has good horizontal and vertical range but is fairly telegraphed. Watch out for it and don't get swatted across to the opposite side of the stage.
His uair is a slight problem though. It has HUGE vertical range and a fairly large horizontal range. It's a bit harder to see coming and can be used safely while rising to cover him getting back to the ledge (assuming that you shielded/got away from the first one. Otherwise he'd just get back onstage for free). Luckily, it's a multi-hit move and fairly easy to SDI out of. So, even if you get caught by it, get out of it before the last hit, or, if you're amazing, SDI off the stage and DS stagespike him. Whichever floats your boat.
His inhale shouldn't be a problem. It's hugely telegraphed and you can just shield as he falls down super quickly for no reason.
Bair... ehhh, idk. I don't see anyone getting hit by it that often but it's not surprising if you do imo. Be aware of when he is jumping more than he has to off the ledge. Dtilt his if he pokes out.[/COLLAPSE]
DDD off the stage:
Oh, DDD is bad here. It's so much fun. Rack up damage and gimp him to your heart's content.
[COLLAPSE=" "]Other than DDD's initial mid-air jump, his jumps are not that good. They give very little vertical distance (and because his mobility is awful the horizontal gain is almost none). Once you see his first jump being used be prepared to harass him with fair/nair/bair. If he's below stage level when he uses his first jump, just grab the ledge and keep hold of it (DS regrab trick to make sure you don't get randomly faired or whatever). Force him to use his upB and then just keep knocking him back offstage with no jumps. He'll die eventually. Don't get risky or overextend yourself looking for a quick kill. Just be patient and keep hitting him.
Dair offstage is a great tool here. Even if it doesn't spike him you hit him away from the stage forcing him to use his first jump (assuming he hasn't already) making him far more likely to need to use his upB to recover. Which you should ****.
If DDD's upBs directly vertically next to the ledge and has no jumps left you just got a free stock. Grab him, pummel him until he breaks out and falls down, he'll upB again in the exact same way, regrab, blahblahblah.
Actually, if you're winning and feel like being a huge ****, keep doing it over and over again until you time him out! Or until he kills himself...
Since I know we're all fairly lazy, here's a quick reference point for DDD's ledge attack distances:
On FD, Marth's front foot being on the very tip of the inside arrow puts you as close to the ledge as possible while still outside of DDD's ledge attack (over 100%).
If Marth's foot is on the corner of the inner angle of the outer arrow, you'll be as close to the ledge as possible while still outside his ledge attack range (under 100%).
There are similar markings on most stages, but you shouldn't need them since you should be able to use FD as a reference point and apply it to other stages easily enough.[/COLLAPSE]
Now for other gay parts of the match-up...
Marth on the ledge:
Being in this position is a very very sad place to be and will cause you a lot of frustration. The number one, BIGGEST thing to keep in mind while on the ledge is PATIENCE!
[COLLAPSE=" "]Abuse platforms. If you're on SV wait for the platform to come. After waiting DDD might think you're going to go for the platform so just do a normal stand-up. Mix it up, but make sure you are patient and think about how the platforms will benefit you.
On that note, normal stand-ups are underused. Make them not.
His ftilt, on reaction, will beat most options you have (unless he had his shield up beforehand. In that case I don't think he can react quickly enough to ftilt your normal get-up (assuming he's far enough away where he won't be able to grab you.
Footstool his shield.
Please don't roll. You'll probably just end up getting CGed back the opposite way across the stage and then be forced back onto the ledge. Or, if you have RCO lag, you'll just die (see RCO section).
DS regrabbing is good. He'll get jumpy and act. So, you react to get up. Nair, crossover uair, platforms, whatever.
Wavebouncing DB is fairly safe on his shield as the momentum reversal should push you out of his grab range. Also, while I can't find frame data on it, punishing his grab should not be difficult at all. I believe most characters have a similar cooldown on their grounds (tethers excluded) and I know that Marth's whiffed grab can be fsmashed by MK.
Gliding off the stage with counter:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13350484&postcount=30132
DB away from the ledge into bair isn't recommended unless you already have RCO lag imo. It forces you to DS back to the ledge which will then give you RCO lag.
Ledge get-up-> DS beats his ftilt, but, it's risky.
[/COLLAPSE]Kadaj said:
Marth offstage:
Who doesn't love being in this position as Marth?!?! -_-
[COLLAPSE=" "]After a CG you're likely to be put in here with an fthrow (unless he dthrows in which case you're on the ledge... awesome). It's not unheard of for DDD to come harass you offstage with bairs due to his multiple jumps giving him a lot of room for error and ability to cover space combined with his amazing FF (seriously, why did DDD's FF have to be so good D= ). Make sure that you are very careful with your jump and if it isn't completely necessary that you do not touch your jump button at all.
Once DDD has used his first midair jump though, his subsequent jumps don't give him anywhere near as much vertical height as your second jump will. Double jump air dodge after his first jump is gone isn't that risky as DDD will have an issue keeping up.
Early upBs are great (as long as you're sure you can reach the ledge). Obviously it beats bair due to invincibility frames and if you catch him off guard under the stage of during a FF input you get a free stock via stagespike/him DIing terribly.
Just like always, don't try to beat his bair with your fair. You lose. You might end up dead. Just don't do it.[/COLLAPSE]
RCO lag:
Everyone's favorite aspect of this character! Yayyyy
RCO lag is gay, and few characters can punish Marth's RCO lag as well as DDD. However, luckily Marth has amazing tools to be able to circumvent the RCO lag from being able to be punished.
[COLLAPSE=" "]RCO in this MU is actually quite similar to being Wario at kill percents vs a DK w/ a 9-wind charged up. If Wario gets grabbed, he's going to die. However, Wario has more than enough tools to avoid the grab. Land w/ nair, he can't grab you. Abuse platforms. Etc etc
Do NOT Dolphin Slash onstage. It's asking to get grabbed->****.
If there are platforms and you want to get rid of your RCO lag, get to a high platform. You'll be uaired and just SDI out.
Land behind DDD with uair.
Just stay safe and away from DDD. Between Marth's ability and DDD's lack of it, you should be able to escape most situations where RCO would be heavily punished.[/COLLAPSE]
DDD approaching you:
Alright, so you got a lead. Now DDD has to approach you, or try to camp you out with Waddles (yeah... okay).
[COLLAPSE=" "]DDD can:
Dash/walk-> shield
Dash/walk-> spotdodge
Rolls
Walking Ftilt
Grab
[/COLLAPSE]Kadaj said:
General gameplay:
Random information that didn't fit in the other situations
[COLLAPSE=" "]
If DDD is, for some reason, throwing Waddles at you, just walk at him. Unless you're (roughly) 70% of FD away from DDD, walking->PS->Dash DB is a guaranteed punish on his sideB.∫unk said:
If you get a grab on DDD at 0%, you have fthrowx3-> dair (best choice if you're close enough to the ledge), fsmash (best choice for putting him offstage if you're not close enough to dair), and usmash (best choice is fsmash won't send him offstage or if you're really comfortable juggling DDD).
If you get the dair offstage, follow him down and footstool->spike if he starts jumping up for a free kill. The only way to avoid that is for DDD to immediately upB. If he does that, get back on stage and start edgeguarding/ledgetrapping him.
When you're not zoning out DDD w/ FH fairs and running away, fighting DDD is a wonderfully fun game of mix-ups and crossovers! DDD's OoS options (other than his amazing grabs) aren't that scary.
*Note: Do not try to cross-up DDD when you're at kill percents. The threat of utilt killing you makes the risk/reward too heavily skewed.*
So, you all know that FH fair is a much better option than falling fair/SHfair. However, because it's habit, you may find yourself SHing regardless. What do? Easy, just FF into grab. DDD is probably waiting for the fair/nair hitconfirm to react. Just grab him.
DDDs, in general, love their shield a LOT. As a result it's easier to grab DDD than most other characters.
FH Dair OoS is a really good way to get out of situations where you're feeling pressured. Between Marth's air speed, dair's shield stun, and DDD's lack of mobility, it is very difficult to punish Marth's rising dair on shield.
Speaking of dair, everyone knows that FH dair (buffered) auto-cancels on the platforms above you on BF. DDD's dair auto-cancels in the same way. Don't be caught off guard.
Spaced dtilt is safe on shield. However, if you plan on using dtilt you have to make sure it's on your terms. Dtilt loses to dash-> shield and PS.
Platform camping is really good vs DDD. BF makes it so it's near impossible for him to hit you (watch out for bair and SDI uair just in case though) and SV lets you waste a lot of time and help positioning a lot.
Your air speed is almost as fast as DDD's full run speed. As a result, changing directions in the air while he is dashing or running makes it near impossible for him to keep up with you.
SDIing his uair/dair isn't that hard. Make sure you can do it.
Oh, and in case I didn't reference it enough throughout, DDD's mobility is AWFUL. Yours isn't. Abuse this fact as much as possible. This is how you win.[/COLLAPSE]
Thanks a lot to Kadaj and Junk for looking this over and offering their comments.
