Wolf Matchup Export

Deleted member · Oct 14, 2011

Character: Wolf
Current BBR MU Rating: -1
What to watch out for: Shine Gimping, Grab Release into F-Smash
Stages
-Strike: Yoshi's Island, Battlefield
-Ban: Lylat, Yoshi's Island
-Counterpicks: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon
Lucas Boards Matchup Rating: -1

[COLLAPSE="Matchup Summaries"]

Zwei Striker said:
Well, I was playing this match up last night for the first time, but this is what I got:

Wolf needs to approach; he can't try to camp us since we can just magnet his lasers. If he tries to stay away, we can just harass him with pkf, and if he sits on his reflector we can quickly approach and grab/fair/nair/something. When he approaches, hes hella dangerous. He has LOTS of approaches, like walking ftilt (really safe attack), SH-fair, SH-bair (un-punishable if well spaced), SH-shine, DACUS; he can even approach and laser (which, unless you predict, you won't me able to magnet, and if you try to magnet on reaction, you'll get hit). So this is where the problem is: How can we deal with his approaches? I dealt with them with ftilt and retreating fair the most, and it worked fairly well. However, it's really a problem when wolfs use Fsmash as an approach, because, though it's really punishable on block, it's fast to come out, it covers a lot of space quickly and deals a nice enough amount of damage. It really messed up my spacing when wolf used it. I found retreating pivot grab a nice way to deal with this and his other ground approaches. Still, in the end, I really felt this a +1 for wolf, since he can rack up damage way faster than we can, he kills easily with dacus, bair and dsmash (also, shine to dsmash needs to be perfect shielded or will hit), and can gimp us, be it a spike or a shine against the pkt1.
Shine> jab is truecombo, btw.

Auspher said:
I have trouble fighting Lucas as Wolf if the player uses the mobility of the character well. Sure, we have reflector to stop the PK Fire, but that only goes so far 'till they begin to bait and punish. Camping with Blaster also isn't too wise, but it's good at close range because of the bayonet.

Our horizontal range on our F-air and B-airs is pretty reliable though, so Lucas needs to watch out for that. Lucas can run away fairly well, but Wolf is also known for mobility in the air. Wolf also has a strong ground game, so.....yeah. It's also extremely dangerous to recover low vs. Wolf. Better to come in from a distance horizontally.

While Lucas can give Wolf some trouble, he has just too many options that beat ours. -1 at best.

KoozyK said:
what to watch out for
1: wolfs back air is legit, it is a combo starter as well as a decent kill move. so you know. bair to fsmash is combo that you should most def. look out for.
2: DONT GET GRABBED. if your grabbed, its and automatic GR to fsmash.

recovering
id recommend switching up the recovery a lot. you have a lot of options. otherwise it;ll lead to an easy gimp for wolf.
1: if you tether near the ledge. a wolf that knows the matchup will spike you if theyre anywhere near the ledge.
2: not sure if its a better idea to recover high or low. wolfs uair is pretty legit. but im fairly sure dair beats it out *correct me if im wrong, the wolf i play doesnt do it often so i cant remember if that's the reason or not*

Range wise:
1: you can out camp this domestic mutt, magnet those lazers and makem come towards you.
2: generally try to play close range and long range for
- long range to camp
- short range but in burst. you dont want to get grabbed. remeber if you nair to always land behind the wolf. if wolf takes flight into SH's and FH's back out of it. this is partially where we lose the MU. Shine and most of his aerials are trouble if you have nooooo idea what to do.
- if you play mid range, you wanna play in FAir range. not pk fire range.
3: Wolfs dacus is actually pretty good and has pretty decent range, dont let it catch you off guard. dont spot dodge it either, just shield and ftilt.

Stages
Strike- Yoshi's island, Battle Field.
Ban - Halberd, or CS and the strikes.
CP- pokemon 1, frigate(if your felling ballzy)

i feel like this is even.

MegaRobMan said:
lol @ +1. I've said that this matchup is almost even, probably closer to +1 wolf than +1 Lucas, that's for sure.

What happens when you play someone who doesn't calm down with bair walling? A lot of us Wolves are as aggro as Seagull at low% but can mix up speeds when necessary.

What happens when you play someone who can actually laser camp you? Wolfs laser works to approach and retreat with and the gun has a hitbox.

What happens when they decide to SPAM (at appropriate times) d-smash instead of relying on it for killing? That move outspaces everything, is fast and deals a lot of damage.

What happens when you play someone who actually waits til ~130 to grab release f-smash you AND it's FRESH. Good luck with that DI.

Also, would like to point out that d-throw does more damage than GR-Fsmash.

Also, a fresh Fair is hard to DI as well.

FAE and I played about 8 matches of Wolf-Lucas this past weekend, I won the first 3, he won the next 4 and I won the last one, so that's even. (as a tie breaker, he ***** drunk MRM in the crew battle).

That being said, here's what Wolf has to worry about.

#0-Obviously, don't spam blaster. He will heal a lot or bat it back at you.

#1-Dair/nair/ftilt mix ups. Wolf can beat them if he knows what's going to happen, but with proper mixups, it's tough mcgruff. Dair can be beaten if you get to it on the start up with upair, but bair/fair trade better, though sometimes that's impossible. Nair is just best to shine, and f-tilt you can get around with whatever, but know that mix up is coming.

#2-Magnet Beaming the entire screen in less than a second. That stupid move has the weirdest hitbox and seems to be the move that gimps me, because it will knock me far enough off stage that lucas can use his magic and then time the ledge grab.

#3-Verticle PK fire gimps. I did a really good job avoiding this when I played FAE, but whenever he'd hit me upward at a non-killing, but almost % he'd come up and shoot me dead or almost off stage.

#4-D-tilt is b.s. and will lock you I should have won a match...really...but I got d-tilted and died at like 80% :/

Don't spot dodge too much or you will eat d-smash's. Shine is really helpful because Lucas isn't used to people getting out of his combo.

I think that's allf or now.

Seagull Man said:
I tend to kill with Fair or Bair. Fsmash doesn't kill till very high percents. It shouldn't kill you. Dsmash is hard to land on because he is a character that generally is grounded and his moves have little lag. Only way Dsmash should work on him is if is recovering, close to the edge offstage, or he DI's into you during a GR.

In the realm of intense theorycraft, then this matchup would go to time everytime because would reflect 's projectiles and avoid him while would heal from lasers and his own reflected back moves.

There isn't such a thing as perfect recovery for a character that isn't in brawl in my honest opinion.

Mekos said:
I didn't say perfect recovery. I said a mastery of recovery. This means u can use all of lucas' options in recovery at your disposal. With that u can add mixups, bait(force your opponent to do what you want), and make it back to the stage.

I rarely get gimped because I force my opponent to do what I want via making them back up, shield, etc, while recovering. One of my favorite things to do is to pika fire my opponents shield as I'm falling. As they shield I will make my next move and depending on what they do, is what option I will choose. Kinda hard to explain but that's why i keep saying smash is a mental game.

For example in me vs esam in this match...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHQ8Yh7NVqU
watch at 3:24. I knew exactly what esam was going to do because he had punished me earlier for recovering a similar way. So I mixed it up. I knew that by starting that recovery that he would get ready to punish. I baited him into that and then mixed it up at the last second.

So when talking about matchups if we are assuming the player has full mastery of all of the characters abilities and uses them in a smart manor, then we can say that Wolf's downthrow off the stage isn't that bad.
Like for example, Falco's chain grab to spike is deadly for lucas players who do not have full mastery of the zap jump, but if they do that makes the matchup completely different.

@Striker - I don't have to worry about that because lucas is very quick and powerful himself. So if you can learn to read the wolf's habits and playstyle u can get inside and punish accordingly. U have to attack in situations before his attack can come out(spacing). That is the key imo to being a successful lucas player. He doesn't gimp us easily unless yer talking about a lucky lasor off the stage on wifi lolol. He will gimp a lucas player easily who doesn't Di well and doesn't have many different options to recover at his disposal.

Ishieymoro said:
Well, at least I can respond to posts about Wolf, so here goes...

While I think it's kinda really out there to say that Lucas beats Wolf, I can maybe see it being in the .5 range if we had decimals :/

Wolf kiiiinda needs to approach, maybe. If we shine projectiles and jump out of it, you really have a hard time punishing us for it. However, same goes for you using your magnet. It's a stalemate, I'd say.

If you get grabbed and Wolf goes for the grab release, make sure you do the far release and hold up. The close release means you can get dsmashed (but few Wolves will react to that and just fsmash on instinct anyways), and if you hold up + some extra SDI it'll be easy to get out after the first hit with only an extra 5%. Jab should beat out most dashgrab mixup attempts.

As Mekos said, once Lucas learns to get around bair it's a whole new ball game. Every other Lucas I've played (nobody notable unfortunately) had a real issue dealing with bair, but at higher levels Lucas can really mitigate its impact with his overall mobility.

For getting dthrown near the ledge, just tether the ledge lol. Solves basically everything. It's pretty tough to get Lucas into bad positions offstage too imo, or at least at high levels.

Fair is a good kill move, I find that to be useful since Lucas jumps around a lot with aerials and it can trade/beat a fair amount of his stuff.

Gimping Lucas is pretty hard if he's smart about it imo.

Uhh yeah don't spotdodge, don't get locked out of dair. Those are important things for Wolf.

-----

Only high-leve Lucas I've played is Mekos, who I think is quite noticeably better than me. I used to think we could more or less just bair and do well, but he showed me otherwise lol, that set did not go well xD

Mekos said:
I like discussing this topic with Ishiey. Good comments man. I'm assuming were talking about high level play and trying to give examples of that as well. We have played!? Cool But like I said my first tourney ever this wold player messed me up and all he really did was back air lol. I also agree that wolfs need to approach us which I love. I bait every wolf into shooting their lasors. At a certain distance yall can't resist and I'll get a heal every once in a while . After that most of them say ff it and go aggro lol.

@Striker u aren't reading my comments obviously. I said it should be 0 or +1 in wolfs favor.
But yer logic is wrong. Smash is about spacing. So u cant just say one move beats another. It depends on the spacing of the characters. That is what I am trying to explain to you. It doesn't matter if wolfs attacks have more range if lucas has the correct spacing. Wolf does not have a long sword like Marth. So I am talking about the ease of our ability to use spacing to get inside and attack accodingly. It is much easier for us to space against wolf than marth or mk. Once we get inside he can not up b like mk or sword dance like marth. Most of alot of wolfs do their reflector once they have been pressured or hit. I read that most of the time and get a heavy punish. Anyways my logic does not mean that every matchup is +4. U get what I am trying to say?

At high level play wolfs doesn't have a great amount of better options than lucas. Read what Ishiey wrote. My point is if the lucas has mastery of all his options then what most people claim to be wolfs advantages on lucas or not in fact that big of a deal.

@Seagul - Here is a match of u vs PF on the same level(halberd) actually and yer playstyle really hasn't changed _-_. And that is tourney. U got a big lead and still went aggro. no johns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDo4aTKaOfM&feature=related

[/COLLAPSE]

Ishiey · Oct 15, 2011

Well... idk, Lucas is fairly mobile, and I find that to be really annoying. Wolf lives longer and kills easier imo. Aside from those two points, I don't really think I have anything to contribute :/

Zwei Striker · Oct 15, 2011

Well, I was playing this match up last night for the first time, but this is what I got:

Wolf needs to approach; he can't try to camp us since we can just magnet his lasers. If he tries to stay away, we can just harass him with pkf, and if he sits on his reflector we can quickly approach and grab/fair/nair/something. When he approaches, hes hella dangerous. He has LOTS of approaches, like walking ftilt (really safe attack), SH-fair, SH-bair (un-punishable if well spaced), SH-shine, DACUS; he can even approach and laser (which, unless you predict, you won't me able to magnet, and if you try to magnet on reaction, you'll get hit). So this is where the problem is: How can we deal with his approaches? I dealt with them with ftilt and retreating fair the most, and it worked fairly well. However, it's really a problem when wolfs use Fsmash as an approach, because, though it's really punishable on block, it's fast to come out, it covers a lot of space quickly and deals a nice enough amount of damage. It really messed up my spacing when wolf used it. I found retreating pivot grab a nice way to deal with this and his other ground approaches. Still, in the end, I really felt this a +1 for wolf, since he can rack up damage way faster than we can, he kills easily with dacus, bair and dsmash (also, shine to dsmash needs to be perfect shielded or will hit), and can gimp us, be it a spike or a shine against the pkt1.
Shine> jab is truecombo, btw.

Deleted member · Oct 17, 2011

Ishieymoro said:
Well... idk, Lucas is fairly mobile, and I find that to be really annoying. Wolf lives longer and kills easier imo. Aside from those two points, I don't really think I have anything to contribute :/

I am disappoint.

But I agree with you. I have trouble fighting Lucas as Wolf if the player uses the mobility of the character well. Sure, we have reflector to stop the PK Fire, but that only goes so far 'till they begin to bait and punish. Camping with Blaster also isn't too wise, but it's good at close range because of the bayonet.

Our horizontal range on our F-air and B-airs is pretty reliable though, so Lucas needs to watch out for that. Lucas can run away fairly well, but Wolf is also known for mobility in the air. Wolf also has a strong ground game, so.....yeah. It's also extremely dangerous to recover low vs. Wolf. Better to come in from a distance horizontally.

While Lucas can give Wolf some trouble, he has just too many options that beat ours. -1 at best.

KoozyK · Oct 17, 2011

what to watch out for
1: wolfs back air is legit, it is a combo starter as well as a decent kill move. so you know. bair to fsmash is combo that you should most def. look out for.
2: DONT GET GRABBED. if your grabbed, its and automatic GR to fsmash.

recovering
id recommend switching up the recovery a lot. you have a lot of options. otherwise it;ll lead to an easy gimp for wolf.
1: if you tether near the ledge. a wolf that knows the matchup will spike you if theyre anywhere near the ledge.
2: not sure if its a better idea to recover high or low. wolfs uair is pretty legit. but im fairly sure dair beats it out *correct me if im wrong, the wolf i play doesnt do it often so i cant remember if that's the reason or not*

Range wise:
1: you can out camp this domestic mutt, magnet those lazers and makem come towards you.
2: generally try to play close range and long range for
- long range to camp
- short range but in burst. you dont want to get grabbed. remeber if you nair to always land behind the wolf. if wolf takes flight into SH's and FH's back out of it. this is partially where we lose the MU. Shine and most of his aerials are trouble if you have nooooo idea what to do.
- if you play mid range, you wanna play in FAir range. not pk fire range.
3: Wolfs dacus is actually pretty good and has pretty decent range, dont let it catch you off guard. dont spot dodge it either, just shield and ftilt.

Stages
Strike- Yoshi's island, Battle Field.
Ban - Halberd, or CS and the strikes.
CP- pokemon 1, frigate(if your felling ballzy)

i feel like this is even.

Mekos · Oct 21, 2011

I would say this matchup is 0 or +1 in our favor. Yea since the beginning of my smash career everyone has told me how bad the wolf matchup is. Fow the best ness even told me to pick a different character for him. My first tourney ever a top wolf from Kansas fffd me up. I couldn't get past the back air.

But after my mastery of all the basic techniques in the game, my newly created techniques for lucas and new gained ability to read really well, it is not that tough(as people made it seem in the past). I feel u need to just watch out for two things.
1. The back air. If the wolf is back air spamming just space accordingly and don't approach. What for him to calm the heck down!
2, His down smash as a kill move. When yer at death% just watch out for it. His other moves, u can di easily.(Master diing!)

Here is a recent vid of me vs. A top wolf Seagull.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h2QpkUBsYU match 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu-s5enBSXE&feature=related match 1

Seagull Joe · Oct 21, 2011

doesn't beat

. Get outta here with that garbage. You only MM'd me for a dollar so I treated it like a friendly. It's pretty obvious I treated it that way cause I was playing aggro as ****. I even went balls out just for a random spike that killed myself as well. +1

. MM me for $5 next time Mekos.

KoozyK · Oct 21, 2011

johnsONjohnsONjohns

Mekos · Oct 21, 2011

calm down. u are not the only wolf i have played. And your logic means nothing because it is the same for me. Debate the points I have made not that you lost a mm.

Anyways your knew challenge is why brawl is gay. The more money that is on the line or the more serious the player is taking the match just means he will camp more. So whoever gets the lead will just camp. If I'm scared in tourney and have the lead please believe I will not go aggro lol. But read what I wrote. It still holds true. Smash is a mental game.
But anyways yer a pretty aggro player. Look at u vs. Kadaj. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r96jP2hR5w&feature=related
U have a two stock lead and yer still going mad aggro.

Sure I'll mm for 5 dollars I don't mind. But stop johning. Yer spike wasn't random. It was a beautiful spike. U just got unlucky on the recovery that barely missed. And we were both at high%. It was a smart decision. Stop discrediting yourself.

Fuujin · Oct 21, 2011

But Lucas is bad...

Mekos · Oct 21, 2011

The only major setback lucas has is the grab release gayness on him and that he has no priority.
He is quick and powerful tho and his lack of priority can be managed with his quickness.

But lets stay on topic. Wolf's grab release to forward smash is not that bad. That move is weak and can be managed with good di easily.

I've already talked about his two main strength against us. I enjoy fighting wolfs myself. Again I feel its +1 in our favor or even.

Deleted member · Oct 21, 2011

I'd like to see how Pink Fresh feels about this MU.

Seagull Joe · Oct 21, 2011

Why would I not go aggro if I have a two stock lead? The chance of trades would always be in my favor in that instance because

is much heavier then

and the damage output by

's moves is significantly more then

's.

You negated the effects of

's Dthrow has on

. He easily forces you offstage with it, which puts you in horrible positioning.

And fow is correct,

beats

at best +2.

only loses to

-1 because he can actually move around better (higher aerial mobility), which helps him avoid getting destroyed in the air better.

True, I lost, but it wasn't a tourney match and all I had to lose was a dollar...? There are clear differences in gameplay of small MM's to tourney play.

castorpollux · Oct 21, 2011

wolf beats lucas
seagull loses to lucas

seagull =/= wolf

in conclusion wolf beats lucas and the wins lucas players have over seagull doesn't mean anything

Chuee · Oct 21, 2011

Wolf for sure doesn't lose to lucas. 0 is being really optimistic.
GR Fsmash is actually pretty good because it does a good amount of damage and can kill.
Wolf wins this MU because he outranges us and pressures us really well.
Lucas doesn't even have much on wolf besides magnet.

Mekos · Oct 21, 2011

no one cares that u lost or your reasons why(Johns go both ways. I didn't put in the same mental strength against u as when I played Esam in Finals). Thank you for explaining your reasoning for the matchup tho. Down throw is not that bad if the lucas has mastery of all recovering. Mix ups and the zap jump take care of that. Another plus for us is that we can mess up up safely while wolfs are off the stage. We can add% or cut off recovery options.

Honestly, if we have an assumption that both players are of the same skill and think the exact same way then I would say wolf wins. Cuz he has a few better options. So go ahead and give Wolf +1.

@Chue - I disagree. It doesn't kill well and It's easy to DI(of course any move can kill eventually). Wolf's fsmash is weird. All I know is that move rarely kills me. The down smash is the killer.
With all basics mastered in the game matchups are alot different. If every player in the smash community had a mastery of Di then Mk wouldn't be banned in unity right now imo lol.

MegaRobMan · Oct 21, 2011

Mekos said:
I would say this matchup is 0 or +1 in our favor.

1. The back air. If the wolf is back air spamming just space accordingly and don't approach. What for him to calm the heck down!
2, His down smash as a kill move. When yer at death% just watch out for it. His other moves, u can di easily.(Master diing!)

lol @ +1. I've said that this matchup is almost even, probably closer to +1 wolf than +1 Lucas, that's for sure.

What happens when you play someone who doesn't calm down with bair walling? A lot of us Wolves are as aggro as Seagull at low% but can mix up speeds when necessary.

What happens when you play someone who can actually laser camp you? Wolfs laser works to approach and retreat with and the gun has a hitbox.

What happens when they decide to SPAM (at appropriate times) d-smash instead of relying on it for killing? That move outspaces everything, is fast and deals a lot of damage.

What happens when you play someone who actually waits til ~130 to grab release f-smash you AND it's FRESH. Good luck with that DI.

Also, would like to point out that d-throw does more damage than GR-Fsmash.

Also, a fresh Fair is hard to DI as well.

FightAdamantEevee said:
13: MegaRobMan - Fun friendlies, I haven't played you since the last Kahoka right? Your Wolf's really good, let's play more next time :D

FAE and I played about 8 matches of Wolf-Lucas this past weekend, I won the first 3, he won the next 4 and I won the last one, so that's even. (as a tie breaker, he ***** drunk MRM in the crew battle).

That being said, here's what Wolf has to worry about.

#0-Obviously, don't spam blaster. He will heal a lot or bat it back at you.

#1-Dair/nair/ftilt mix ups. Wolf can beat them if he knows what's going to happen, but with proper mixups, it's tough mcgruff. Dair can be beaten if you get to it on the start up with upair, but bair/fair trade better, though sometimes that's impossible. Nair is just best to shine, and f-tilt you can get around with whatever, but know that mix up is coming.

#2-Magnet Beaming the entire screen in less than a second. That stupid move has the weirdest hitbox and seems to be the move that gimps me, because it will knock me far enough off stage that lucas can use his magic and then time the ledge grab.

#3-Verticle PK fire gimps. I did a really good job avoiding this when I played FAE, but whenever he'd hit me upward at a non-killing, but almost % he'd come up and shoot me dead or almost off stage.

#4-D-tilt is b.s. and will lock you I should have won a match...really...but I got d-tilted and died at like 80% :/

Don't spot dodge too much or you will eat d-smash's. Shine is really helpful because Lucas isn't used to people getting out of his combo.

I think that's allf or now.

Seagull Joe · Oct 21, 2011

I tend to kill

with Fair or Bair. Fsmash doesn't kill till very high percents. It shouldn't kill you. Dsmash is hard to land on

because he is a character that generally is grounded and his moves have little lag. Only way Dsmash should work on him is if

is recovering, close to the edge offstage, or he DI's into you during a GR.

In the realm of intense theorycraft, then this matchup would go to time everytime because

would reflect

's projectiles and avoid him while

would heal from lasers and his own reflected back moves.

There isn't such a thing as perfect recovery for a character that isn't

in brawl in my honest opinion.

Zwei Striker · Oct 21, 2011

Mekos said:
The only major setback lucas has is the grab release gayness on him and that he has no priority.

It's ONLY that, if you ignore that wolf outranges us, gimps us easily enough and is faster...

Chuee · Oct 21, 2011

Mekos said:
@Chue - I disagree. It doesn't kill well and It's easy to DI(of course any move can kill eventually). Wolf's fsmash is weird. All I know is that move rarely kills me. The down smash is the killer.
With all basics mastered in the game matchups are alot different. If every player in the smash community had a mastery of Di then Mk wouldn't be banned in unity right now imo lol.

I don't think you can DI out of it without releasing next to wolf, in which he can react to and re grab. Even so, fsmash does 15% on it's own and can put Lucas in the air.
Also @ DI mention. Most of MKs moves won't be affected besides Nado and he can survive without it. I'm against the ban btw.

Mekos · Oct 21, 2011

I didn't say perfect recovery. I said a mastery of recovery. This means u can use all of lucas' options in recovery at your disposal. With that u can add mixups, bait(force your opponent to do what you want), and make it back to the stage.

I rarely get gimped because I force my opponent to do what I want via making them back up, shield, etc, while recovering. One of my favorite things to do is to pika fire my opponents shield as I'm falling. As they shield I will make my next move and depending on what they do, is what option I will choose. Kinda hard to explain but that's why i keep saying smash is a mental game.

For example in me vs esam in this match...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHQ8Yh7NVqU
watch at 3:24. I knew exactly what esam was going to do because he had punished me earlier for recovering a similar way. So I mixed it up. I knew that by starting that recovery that he would get ready to punish. I baited him into that and then mixed it up at the last second.

So when talking about matchups if we are assuming the player has full mastery of all of the characters abilities and uses them in a smart manor, then we can say that Wolf's downthrow off the stage isn't that bad.
Like for example, Falco's chain grab to spike is deadly for lucas players who do not have full mastery of the zap jump, but if they do that makes the matchup completely different.

@Striker - I don't have to worry about that because lucas is very quick and powerful himself. So if you can learn to read the wolf's habits and playstyle u can get inside and punish accordingly. U have to attack in situations before his attack can come out(spacing). That is the key imo to being a successful lucas player. He doesn't gimp us easily unless yer talking about a lucky lasor off the stage on wifi lolol. He will gimp a lucas player easily who doesn't Di well and doesn't have many different options to recover at his disposal.

Zwei Striker · Oct 21, 2011

Mekos said:
So when talking about matchups if we are assuming the player has full mastery of all of the characters abilities and uses them in a smart manor, then we can say that Wolf's downthrow off the stage isn't that bad.
Like for example, Falco's chain grab to spike is deadly for lucas players who do not have full mastery of the zap jump, but if they do that makes the matchup completely different.

@Striker - I don't have to worry about that because lucas is very quick and powerful himself. So if you can learn to read the wolf's habits and playstyle u can get inside and punish accordingly. U have to attack in situations before his attack can come out(spacing). That is the key imo to being a successful lucas player. He doesn't gimp us easily unless yer talking about a lucky lasor off the stage on wifi lolol. He will gimp a lucas player easily who doesn't Di well and doesn't have many different options to recover at his disposal.

The thing we are discussing ain't the possibility to use a characters abilities in a smart way, but that we need those abilities to be useful and better against the options your opponent has.
Also, you can't just go around saying "So if you can learn to read the wolf's habits and playstyle u can get inside and punish accordingly. U have to attack in situations before his attack can come out(spacing)." because that just goes for every matchup in the game, and thus everyone should have a +4 against everyone. Every player can mix it up and be unpredictable on the other way, but we aren't discussing the mindgames and the readings, but the characteristics and specifics of this two characters in the game. And it's quite obvious to everyone (but you it seems) that the options wolf has to deal with lucas are better that the options lucas has to deal with wolf.

Oh, and wolf can gimp lucas easily on zap jump and pkt2, by just falling reflector any of those.

Ishiey · Oct 21, 2011

Well, at least I can respond to posts about Wolf, so here goes...

While I think it's kinda really out there to say that Lucas beats Wolf, I can maybe see it being in the .5 range if we had decimals :/

Wolf kiiiinda needs to approach, maybe. If we shine projectiles and jump out of it, you really have a hard time punishing us for it. However, same goes for you using your magnet. It's a stalemate, I'd say.

If you get grabbed and Wolf goes for the grab release, make sure you do the far release and hold up. The close release means you can get dsmashed (but few Wolves will react to that and just fsmash on instinct anyways), and if you hold up + some extra SDI it'll be easy to get out after the first hit with only an extra 5%. Jab should beat out most dashgrab mixup attempts.

As Mekos said, once Lucas learns to get around bair it's a whole new ball game. Every other Lucas I've played (nobody notable unfortunately) had a real issue dealing with bair, but at higher levels Lucas can really mitigate its impact with his overall mobility.

For getting dthrown near the ledge, just tether the ledge lol. Solves basically everything. It's pretty tough to get Lucas into bad positions offstage too imo, or at least at high levels.

Fair is a good kill move, I find that to be useful since Lucas jumps around a lot with aerials and it can trade/beat a fair amount of his stuff.

Gimping Lucas is pretty hard if he's smart about it imo.

Uhh yeah don't spotdodge, don't get locked out of dair. Those are important things for Wolf.

-----

Only high-leve Lucas I've played is Mekos, who I think is quite noticeably better than me. I used to think we could more or less just bair and do well, but he showed me otherwise lol, that set did not go well xD

Deleted member · Oct 21, 2011

What do you guys think about stages? I'd say Brinstar is the natural Counterpick, but Frigate is a pretty rough stage for Wolf as well, due to that rising/falling platform + lack of a ledge on the right side of the first transformation.

Strike Battlefield and Ban Lylat for sure.

Mekos · Oct 22, 2011

I like discussing this topic with Ishiey. Good comments man. I'm assuming were talking about high level play and trying to give examples of that as well. We have played!? Cool

But like I said my first tourney ever this wold player messed me up and all he really did was back air lol. I also agree that wolfs need to approach us which I love. I bait every wolf into shooting their lasors. At a certain distance yall can't resist and I'll get a heal every once in a while

. After that most of them say ff it and go aggro lol.

@Striker u aren't reading my comments obviously. I said it should be 0 or +1 in wolfs favor.
But yer logic is wrong. Smash is about spacing. So u cant just say one move beats another. It depends on the spacing of the characters. That is what I am trying to explain to you. It doesn't matter if wolfs attacks have more range if lucas has the correct spacing. Wolf does not have a long sword like Marth. So I am talking about the ease of our ability to use spacing to get inside and attack accodingly. It is much easier for us to space against wolf than marth or mk. Once we get inside he can not up b like mk or sword dance like marth. Most of alot of wolfs do their reflector once they have been pressured or hit. I read that most of the time and get a heavy punish. Anyways my logic does not mean that every matchup is +4. U get what I am trying to say?

At high level play wolfs doesn't have a great amount of better options than lucas. Read what Ishiey wrote. My point is if the lucas has mastery of all his options then what most people claim to be wolfs advantages on lucas or not in fact that big of a deal.

@Seagul - Here is a match of u vs PF on the same level(halberd) actually and yer playstyle really hasn't changed _-_. And that is tourney. U got a big lead and still went aggro. no johns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDo4aTKaOfM&feature=related

MegaRobMan · Oct 22, 2011

Actually a few of Wolfs moves have disjointed hitboxes on them, like fair and f-tilt. If Wolf just SH ACfair's, wolf will beat your non-projectile approach with that method as well, assuming proper spacing, yaddadada.

Mekos · Oct 22, 2011

yea Mega that's why u can get out of them with good di. I think at least.
lol spacing should be done while reading your opponent. I'm going to space according to what my opponent does lol. Most people don't read their opponent tho, they just attack with the tactics they have mastered. This is also known as habits. Top level players place consistently well because they read habits of players who fail to read their own habits.

Seagull Joe · Oct 22, 2011

Mekos said:
I like discussing this topic with Ishiey. Good comments man. I'm assuming were talking about high level play and trying to give examples of that as well. We have played!? Cool But like I said my first tourney ever this wold player messed me up and all he really did was back air lol. I also agree that wolfs need to approach us which I love. I bait every wolf into shooting their lasors. At a certain distance yall can't resist and I'll get a heal every once in a while . After that most of them say ff it and go aggro lol.

@Striker u aren't reading my comments obviously. I said it should be 0 or +1 in wolfs favor.
But yer logic is wrong. Smash is about spacing. So u cant just say one move beats another. It depends on the spacing of the characters. That is what I am trying to explain to you. It doesn't matter if wolfs attacks have more range if lucas has the correct spacing. Wolf does not have a long sword like Marth. So I am talking about the ease of our ability to use spacing to get inside and attack accodingly. It is much easier for us to space against wolf than marth or mk. Once we get inside he can not up b like mk or sword dance like marth. Most of alot of wolfs do their reflector once they have been pressured or hit. I read that most of the time and get a heavy punish. Anyways my logic does not mean that every matchup is +4. U get what I am trying to say?

At high level play wolfs doesn't have a great amount of better options than lucas. Read what Ishiey wrote. My point is if the lucas has mastery of all his options then what most people claim to be wolfs advantages on lucas or not in fact that big of a deal.

@Seagul - Here is a match of u vs PF on the same level(halberd) actually and yer playstyle really hasn't changed _-_. And that is tourney. U got a big lead and still went aggro. no johns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDo4aTKaOfM&feature=related

That was over a year and a half ago before I got "good" at brawl lol. That was my first set with him and I had no idea how to even play a character that heals my lasers. I just guessed. Now I know things about

per-say.

Fuujin · Oct 22, 2011

No johns Seagull.

Zwei Striker · Oct 24, 2011

Mekos said:
I would say this matchup is 0 or +1 in our favor.

Mekos said:
@Striker u aren't reading my comments obviously. I said it should be 0 or +1 in wolfs favor.

Actually I think I read them well enough.

Mekos said:
But yer logic is wrong. Smash is about spacing. So u cant just say one move beats another. It depends on the spacing of the characters. That is what I am trying to explain to you. It doesn't matter if wolfs attacks have more range if lucas has the correct spacing. Wolf does not have a long sword like Marth. So I am talking about the ease of our ability to use spacing to get inside and attack accodingly. It is much easier for us to space against wolf than marth or mk. Once we get inside he can not up b like mk or sword dance like marth. Most of alot of wolfs do their reflector once they have been pressured or hit. I read that most of the time and get a heavy punish. Anyways my logic does not mean that every matchup is +4. U get what I am trying to say?

My logic is acually right. One move does beat another. And it does matter is wolfs attacks have more range (and priority) than lucas. You can say that if the lucas has the correct spacing it won't matter, but did you consider the wolf having a good spacing? then what? We lose.
We can also punish MKs up and Marths sword dance if we get a read, but that doesn't make the option less reliable for them, so I don't happen to see why is reflector a less reliable option to wolf.

Mekos said:
At high level play wolfs doesn't have a great amount of better options than lucas. Read what Ishiey wrote. My point is if the lucas has mastery of all his options then what most people claim to be wolfs advantages on lucas or not in fact that big of a deal.

I agree here. If lucas knows his options and how to use them, he can fight back. But still the matchup is on Wolf's favor. This doesn't mean he's not that much of a big deal, but this matchup is playable.

Mekos · Oct 24, 2011

Overall we are agreeing _-_. I said Wolf is 0 or +1.

Chuee · Oct 25, 2011

but.....we don't beat wolf tho

Mekos · Oct 25, 2011

i dont know what that statement means cuz i beat wolfs.
But I'm saying 0 or +1 in wolfs favor. Why is that not making sense _-_

Sorry but I don't let matchup charts determine my destiny!

MegaRobMan · Oct 25, 2011

player ability > character selection

I beat scrubKnights with Link for breakfast, that should be proof enough since I suck.

Mekos · Oct 25, 2011

Alot of people let matchup charts affect them negatively tho. Like if a lucas loses to a snake or marth they will think "well the matchup is near impossible anyways". Instead of thinking "what did I do wrong, what can i do better".

A personal example for me is against the top dk will. I lost to him 3 times in one tourney lol. In Losers bracket then in Winners bracket and losers bracket for low tiers. I outplayed him the whole time but he would get a grab and infinite me to bring it back. Instead of complaining and giving into the matchup I have analyzed how to win and know how to defeat him next time.

KoozyK · Oct 25, 2011

Mekos said:
Alot of people let matchup charts affect them negatively tho. Like if a lucas loses to a snake the think "well the matchup is near impossible anyways". Instead of thinking "what did I do wrong, what can i do better".
.

i dont know how much i find my self in this life conundrum

that MU is sooooooo much ***. we' have to try no matter how crappy the snake player is

Deleted member · Oct 26, 2011

Auspher said:
What do you guys think about stages? I'd say Brinstar is the natural Counterpick, but Frigate is a pretty rough stage for Wolf as well, due to that rising/falling platform + lack of a ledge on the right side of the first transformation.

Strike Battlefield and Ban Lylat for sure.

Any thoughts?

KoozyK · Oct 26, 2011

Auspher said:
Any thoughts?

i feel like yoshi's island is the first place we need to strike on them.
bf is good to tho.

i can see how lylats bad for us, but i feel like the stage is just as bad for them, since their recovery isnt the great without the stage tilting

yoshi's island just gies wolf to many techs. and such.

Zwei Striker · Oct 26, 2011

Well, battle field seemed good enough to me. But I must say that I really liked delfino, I just feel it helps our recovery a lot during the moving parts, and that we have a lot of room to space him when it's still (Halberd helps recovery too, but it's low ceiling helps wolf killing more than it helps us). Just my thoughts

Deleted member · Oct 26, 2011

Lylat is one of Wolf's better stages, actually. Learn to recover on the stage and it doesn't affect Wolf as badly as it affects Lucas.

Wolf Matchup Export

Deleted member

Guest

Mother Wolf

Smash Apprentice

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Legend

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Apprentice

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Apprentice

Mother Wolf

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Smash Champion

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Ace

Smash Apprentice

Deleted member

Guest

Information

Network