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Nayru's Oracle: The Official Zelda Matchup Thread! Currently Discussing: Peach

Alacion

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Currently Discussing: Peach

Welcome to the official Zelda matchup thread. In this thread, we will be discussing NON PERSONAL opinions regarding Zelda's matchups against her peers.

Before we begin though, there are some ground rules that need to be covered.

1) Avoid making your contribution as personal as possible. For example, you might consistently destroy Meta Knight, but that does NOT mean the matchup is +4 in Zelda's favour. Do NOT let a single victory over somebody be a basis for your contribution.

2) Keep the scaling for matchups CONSISTENT. We will be using the -4 to +4 scale to summarize the matchup. Here is a rundown of the scale:

-4: 10:90 (close to unwinnable)
-3: 30:70 (large disadvantage/hard countered)
-2: 40:60 (medium disadvantage)
-1: 45:55 (small disadvantage)
0: 50:50 (even)
+1: 55:45 (small advantage)
+2: 60:40(medium advantage)
+3: 70:30 (large advantage/hard counter)
+4: 90:10 (close to unloseable).

Keep in mind, the first number in the ratio will always refer to Zelda. Please do your best to pick one number, rather than something in between two integers. There are NO other possible matchup ratios besides -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, and +4.

3) Please be reasonable! If the majority of people say Zelda vs. Meta Knight is -4, then try not to say the matchup is -1 unless you have a very good and justifiable reason for this. :glare:

4) Please check this thread regularly! This thread will change topics every few days, rather than weekly. <- lol

5) It is a difficult task, but please try to contribute as much as possible! Things you can mention are ways to deal with a certain character, what to look out for, and any silly tidbits about the matchup (eg. Zelda's grab release to forward air on Wario).
 

Alacion

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:diddy: Diddy Kong -2 (Medium Disadvantage)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Diddy's Bananas give access to Zelda's Glide Toss

Disadvantages
-Diddy applies enormous pressure with his Peanut Gun and Bananas
-Diddy's ground game surpasses Zelda's
-Banana set ups (such as down smash setups) kill Zelda at lower-than-average percents

Things to Keep in Mind
-The Z button will completely change the way you see the matchup. Using Z in the air allows Zelda the key ability to catch Bananas in the air. Alternatively, any aerial can be used.
-Glide Tossing will prove to be an excellent approach. Reverse Glide Tossing is helpful to create some distance. Prone to over-usage.
-Zelda's Nayru's Love is very helpful in reflecting Bananas. Don't be baited into using it and don't be predictable.
-As always, do not Din's Fire unless Diddy's Bananas can not reach you. Din's Fire can be cancelled by Diddy's forward air.
-By playing near the edge, Diddy's Bananas will push Zelda onto the ledge rather than tripping her. Be careful, Diddy has decent edgeguarding.
-If you are feeling confident, use Diddy's Bananas against him. Otherwise, keep the Bananas as far from Diddy as possible, while keeping them on stage.
-Watch out for Diddy's Side B. A quick and fairly high priority move.
-Diddy's throws are quick and deadly. Watch your DI!

Stage Selection

Counterpicks
-Battlefield
-Smashville
-Any stage really. Platforms are a good thing!

Stage Bans
-Final Destination
[/COLLAPSE]
:falco: Falco -3 (Large Disadvantage)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Falco is lightweight, allowing Zelda to make earlier-than-average KOs compared to other characters.
-Falco's recovery is terribad. Take advantage of this.

Disadvantages
-Completely out-camps Zelda with his lasers.
-Falco's gameplay makes approaching extremely difficult.
-At earlier percentages, Falco has a chaingrab on Zelda.


Things to Keep in Mind
-Falco's jab is godlike. As if approaching Falco wasn't hard enough, his jab shuts down Zelda. By SDI-ing out of his jab upwards, you get a 20 frame advantage on Falco. By SDI-ing behind, there's a 14 frame advantage.
-Falco is one of the few characters with a DACUS. Expect this when you're at kill percentages. Buffered DACUS comes out quick, so watch out for this as well.
-Falco's chaingrab (done at early percent) can result in a spiking dair. Before this, SDI towards the stage. If done correctly, you have a 7 frame advantage to respond with a guaranteed down smash.
-Falco's forward smash is powerful, and a sweetspot that is actually behind the character. Be careful. Moves such as Nayru's Love can outspace it but use sparingly.
-Falco's Phantasm can be difficult to deal with. Counter with multi-hit moves or long lasting moves to counter this. Some examples are forward smash and up tilt
-Falco's Phantasm has invincibility frames, and multiple hitbox frames. Depending on when you hit Falco during the Phantasm, you can outright beat, clank, or get hit.
-When Zelda's in the air, expect back and down airs. They have a lot of priority.
-Falcos will space with their forward tilt. It is quick and safe on shield.


Random Facts
-On the right hand edge of Battlefield, Zelda can down throw stage spike Falco.
-Did you know this matchup discussion resulted in some of the most drama, infractions, and bans the Zelda boards have ever seen?

Stage Selection

Ban
-Lylat Cruise
-Brinstar
-Halberd

Counterpick

-Battlefield
-Smashville
-Final Destination
[/COLLAPSE]
:popo: Ice Climbers -3 (Large Disadvantage)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Zelda can cause major damage if Popo and Nana are separated
-Zelda is able to apply good off stage pressure

Disadvantages
-Zelda is one of the easiest characters to chaingrab
-Zelda has no way to approach Ice Climbers
-Desynched Ice Blocks, Blizzard Wall, and Edge Hog heavily reduce Zelda's options
-Zelda is tall, making her easier to hobble
-If the Ice Climbers apply ISSDI shield grabs, Zelda's entire game is almost shut down

Things to Keep in Mind
-Don't approach the Ice Climbers!
-Know your moveset well! You'll want to avoid using moves with tons of endlag to prevent being grabbed. Farore's Wind and Nayru's Love are prime candidates.
-Players tend to play more campy and Zelda is no exception. However, don't use Din's Fire at close to medium range.
-Use Din's Fire by aiming it to the ground so it still has a chance to connect if Zelda is interrupted with an Ice Block
-Try to keep the Ice Climbers away by pressuring with forward smash
-Careful with your lightning kicks. A power-shielded sweetspot kick will result in you being grabbed
-Ice Climbers have a very good up air. Don't let them juggle you with it!
-Avoid using Farore's Wind to recover on the stage, but keep this option open against a desynched edge hog
-Love Jumps aren't recommended as they take away Zelda's second jump and lags her at the end, reducing her options which can lead to a grab.


Stage Selection

Counterpicks
-Pokemon Stadium 2
-Rainbow Cruise
-Smashville
-Brinstar

Stage Bans
-Final Destination
[/COLLAPSE]
:marth: Marth -3 (Large Disadvantage)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Marth is a light character, allowing for earlier KOs.

Disadvantages
-Marth completely outspaces Zelda
-Tippers devastate an already easy-to-kill character
-Marth is one of three characters that can consistently escape Zelda's up smash

Things to Keep in Mind
-Watch your spacing!
-Marth's major pressuring move on Zelda will be the forward air. Try to powershield this move.
-If Marth misses with many of his moves, it leaves him open to punishment.
-Zelda outcamps Marth causing Marth to approach, however he has excellent approaching options making things difficult for Zelda.
-Marth excels more than Zelda does in the air, and outspaces her as well so rely more on Zelda's ground game.
-Dancing Blade racks up damage and applies pressure. By holding upwards when it first begins there is a chance to escape and punish. The third hit can be power shielded and punished... take advantage of this!
-Beware of Marth's Shield Breaker. Charging it only increases damage and knockback - the Shield Breaking (80% of shield) remains constant. It can also be used to give Marth a boost while recovering. Power shielding still works, however.
-Marth's Dolphin Slash is very quick and can deal very high knockback. Be careful not to be hit by this while recovering. Also used as a panic move.
-Marth has a less than idea air dodge. Bait and punish!


Stage Selection

Counterpicks
A large stage is recommended so Zelda can more easily keep her distance and maintain spacing.

-Final Destination
-Smashville

Stage Bans
-Brinstar
-Battlefield
[/COLLAPSE]
:metaknight: Meta Knight -4 (Close to Unwinnable)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages

-Zelda has powerful attacks, allowing her to KO Meta Knight at lower-than-average percentages.
-Opponent may not have matchup experience against Zelda.

Disadvantages
-Meta Knight outspaces Zelda in almost all situations.
-Zelda has no approach options against Meta Knight.
-Zelda's gameplay is completely shut down in the air.
-Meta Knight's attacks have transcendent priority.
-Meta Knight has godlike planking.

Things to Keep in Mind
-While Meta Knight beats Zelda on both the air and ground, keep your game on the ground if possible.
-Focus on spacing to avoid Meta Knight's attacks. Shield his attacks, and punish when you can. Patience is key!
-Do not use Din's Fire unless at a very safe distance.
-Zelda has limited recovery options that are easily exploited. Mix it up with Love Jumps and Farore's Boost.
-When Meta Knight uses Tornado, SSDI your shield upwards to avoid being shield poked.
-Forward smash can beat Tornado, but don't rely on this. At times, Nayru's Love and down air can beat Tornado.
-After Shuttle Looping, Meta Knight frequently follows up with a Glide Attack. Be prepared.
-Try not to stale Up Smash. It has favourable hitboxes and can kill as early as 125%.
-Don't focus on gimping Meta Knight. On the other hand, Meta Knight gimps Zelda extremely well. Be careful!
-Reverse Nayru's Love Momentum Cancel is especially helpful!
-Dash attack may help because of its speed and range.

Stage Selection

Counterpicks
-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Pictochat

Stage Bans
-Delfino
-Rainbow Cruise
-Brinstar
-Halberd
-Norfair

Random Facts

-If you grab release Meta Knight while on Smashville's platform moving at full speed, Zelda has many options such as up smash, up tilt, or up air.
(Note: Do not go out of your way to do this.)
[/COLLAPSE]
:olimar: Olimar -4.1 (Close to Unwinnable)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Olimar has a below-average recovery
-Zelda's Down Smash can give Olimar trouble
-Lightweight and dies early from Zelda's attacks

Disadvantages
-Zelda is forced to approach but has no approach options
-Purple Up Smash kills Zelda at 80%-90%
-Very powerful moves, but lack priority which Zelda can not take advantage of
-Olimar's grab options prevent Zelda from approaching successfully
-Yellow Pikmin make Zelda have a harder time shaking them off with all her electrical attacks except Neutral Air. Neutral Air is in fact, one of her most viable ways of getting rid of Pikmin because it is not a laggy move, and staling it is not an issue.
-Zelda's special attacks are slow and are easily punished.

Things to Keep in Mind
-When Pikmin are attached to you or about to land on you, do a quick Neutral Air to shake them off
-Get White Pikmin off you immediately, otherwise they are relatively harmless
-Yellow Pikmin are immune to Zelda's magical attacks minus Din's Fire. They have broken hitboxes so be careful.
-Purple Pikmin can't cling to Zelda but do knockback. Watch out for their powerful Smash attacks that can kill Zelda as early as 80%. If it's safe, kill the Purples immediately.
-Blue Pikmin are slightly less powerful than the Purple. Overall, very powerful.
-At the ledge, Olimar loves to shark an Up Air from under the stage. Be careful of this. Yellow Pikmin have extremely large hitboxes!
-Try to keep your Down Smash fresh, as it's possibly one of Zelda's only useful options against Olimar.
-Olimar's Whistle grants him a temporary Super Armour effect.
-OLIMAR CAN GRAB YOU WHILE YOU HANG ON THE LEDGE so be careful.
-What Pikmin Olimar plucks from the ground varies depending on the stage.
-When Olimar needs his Pikmin Chain to recover (and he doesn't have Purples to throw at you), stay on the ledge and hold up and diagonally away from the stage to prevent Olimar from recovering and stage spiking you.

Stage Selection

Counterpicks
-Rainbow Cruise
-Pokemon Stadium 2
-Castle Siege

Stage Bans
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island

[/COLLAPSE]
:pikachu2: Pikachu -2 (Medium Disadvantage)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Due to her light weight and floatiness, Zelda is immune to both Pikachu's down and forward chain throws.
-Zelda can kill earlier than most other characters despite Pikachu's fast falling and excellent momentum cancelling though it is difficult to land at times.

Disadvantages
-Pikachu's camping game is better than Zelda's, forcing her approach.
-Pikachu is quick and small, which makes it difficult for Zelda to land attacks.
-Pikachu is able to land combos which are difficult to escape.
-Pikachu has good Star KO options, as well as set-ups into them.


Things to Keep in Mind
-The first thing Zelda will encounter is Pikachu's camping game. Powershielding is very useful here!
-Next, Pikachus love to forward throw to up smash at early percents! With excellent buffering/timing, Zelda can escape the up smash with a Love Jump.
-Thunder is an excellent edgeguard move. Be sure not to get hit by it right beside Pikachu - it has broken knockback.
-Thunder is often used as a follow up to a connected down smash, up smash, or up tilt for a KO. Try to predict this and DI, and time your airdodge. Don't be predictable with your DI either.
-Pikachu can approach with his quick mobility and Quick Attack cancelling.
-Another approach is Pikachu's down air. Possible counters to this are her up smash or up tilt.
-You can easily DI out of Pikachu's down smash by holding up. Try to tech the landing.
-Pikachus love going for forward smash hard reads, especially after throws. Be careful!
-Watch out for Pikachu's footstool to quick attack. It'll cause Zelda to "flop" on the ground. It forces her to uncontrollably get up, allowing Pikachu to land any move on her. Pikachu's jab can also do this.
-Din's Fire will stop Skull Bash's momentum. Be sure to use this against a recovering Pikachu.
-If Zelda's up smash isn't stale, don't use it for the kill until 12X%. Pikachu is a fast faller, and lives much longer than you'd think.
-Zelda is able to "reflect" Pikachu's Thunder with Nayru's Love because it is a projectile. It can be helpful if Pikachu uses Thunder on the ground where he will be guaranteed to be hit by the attack.

Random Facts
-Zelda actually has a better chance against Pikachu than Sheik due to Pikachu's chaingrab.


Stage Selection

Counterpicks
-Yoshi's Island
-Castle Siege

Stage Bans
-Pokemon Stadium 1
-Halberd[/COLLAPSE]
:snake: Snake -4 (Close to Unwinnable)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Snake's recovery can be exploited for an early gimp.

Disadvantages
-Snake beats Zelda in all distances of play.
-Snake also beats Zelda in every other way, besides being bad.
-Snake's high damage output, and early KO moves devastate Zelda.
-When trading damage, Snake always wins.

Things to Keep in Mind
-Patience is key. Snake takes damage like a tank so chances are he'll live after whatever you can throw at him.
-Watch the damage trading. Ideally, you want to hit Snake twice as much as he hits you.
-Snake forces Zelda's approach with his grenade game. Watch your spacing (especially that up tilt when at 100%+) and mix up your moves.
-Snake excels in the ground but struggles in the air.
-Keep your eyes on the grenades. Snake loves to hold on to grenades to trade damage!
-Snake keeps maintains his mobility and pressure with DACUS. Be prepared to shield or intercept if your reads are good.
-Snake's forward tilt does ridiculous damage. Try to shield the second hit.
-Snake's up tilt kills at ridiculously low percentages. Watch your spacing.
-Snake's down throw is good for tech chasing and follow ups in general. Watch out for a buffered up tilt after a down throw.
-Snake's down and neutral airs do crazy amounts of damage. Focus on SDI-ing out of them.
-Snake's back air is good edge guarding tool for those that don't know about it. Watch out!
-Always keep an eye on Snake's C4. It lasts approximately 25 seconds and can even be hidden on the side of the ledge on stages like Battlefield.
-Snake's final jab can be power shielded somewhat easily.
-Snake applies enormous edge pressure with his down smash, C4, Nikita, and impending up tilt.
-Snake's recovery is terrible. Exploit this with a kick!

Random Facts
-Did you know that Snake players will always go for the 4th controller port? This is so Snake's grenade will always KB the opponent and not himself when one is grabbing the other.
-Down tilt can spike Snake while he is recovering. Aim for where Snake's hands are grabbing the Cypher.

Stage Selection
Pick what stage suits your playstyle the most. If you feel like you want to keep close to Snake, then pick a stage like Battlefield. Be careful for up and forward tilts. If you wish to keep your distance from Snake, try a stage like Smashville or Final Destination. Be prepared for grenades and DACUS though.
[/COLLAPSE]
:wario: Wario -2 (Medium Disadvantage)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Zelda has one of the most devastating grab release follow ups with her guaranteed forward air

Disadvantages
-Wario excels in the air and has excellent aerial approaches which gives Zelda a difficult time.
-Wario can be unpredictable.
-Powerful attacks such as forward smash, up air, and Wario Waft.

Things to Keep in Mind
-Take advantage of Wario's grab release weakness with a forward air, down air (at ledge), up tilt, or an up smash.
-Watch your spacing! (as usual)
-Careful with Zelda's smashes. They last a while and allow Wario to easily punish her.
-Wario's forward smash is very powerful with super armour. Watch out and punish the ending lag!
-Wario's neutral air can easily cancel Din's Fire.
-Watch out for Wario's up air (the clap!!), it has combo potential at lower percents, KO potential at mid-high percents and can shieldpoke a nearly full shield.
-Wario can DACUS. Thankfully it's not difficult to escape with DI and it can also be stopped with a down tilt.
-Watch out for Wario Waft. It is the most dangerous just before it is fully charged so watch the timer, and the attack has hitboxes all around him (even above). It's perfect to punish any of Zelda's laggy moves. Aim Farore's at the ledge to stay safe from the Waft.
-Play very defensive, and pivot grab! This can possibly make Wario think twice about approaching.
-Stay grounded where Zelda excels, unless you are sure you can safely punish.
-Watch out for a bouncing tire! The hitboxes are still active and are good for spacing and for devastating followups such as a forward smash.
-Watch out for Bite mindgames. Watch your spacing since the move lands more easily than you think and it can bypass Zelda's shield.
-Stay safe and be patient.
-Observe how Wario approaches you and what he does to stay safe. Learn these habits and punish.
-Watch the timer and keep in mind which moves are stale and fresh.

Random Facts
-When Wario's bike is on the floor, it has similar properties like the pillars in Luigi's Mansion or the statues in Castle Siege? By using a forward/up smash on the bike, the duration of those hitboxes extend and may fool Wario. (Keep in mind this also makes you vulnerable)
-Wario's Waft fully charges in approximately 1 minute and 50 seconds. It has the most knockback potential just before it is fully charged, and less knockback when fully charged. It activates on frame 3.

Stage Selection

Counterpicks
-Final Destination
-Smashville

Stage Bans
Any stage that most inhibits your grab release options.

-Battlefield
-Brinstar
-Rainbow Cruise
-Yoshi's Island
[/COLLAPSE]
 

KuroganeHammer

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-3

Things to watch out for:

Glide attack outranges EVERYTHING we have. And it kills. Have fun.
D-smash is as fast as ours, stronger, less laggy with more range and transcendant priority. F-smash *might* beat it sometimes.
Zelda has nothing on well spaced dtilt and ftilt
His dair beats our up-smash when spaced properly at the side (not directly above, where out up-smash will win easily)
Din's Fire doesn't work. Don't try it unless he's offstage.
Tornado/Shuttle loop is bayd. If they spam it, even Zelda can punish it. If they don't, then it's pretty safe.

We kill him at 100%.
Press down b. Even if you can't use Sheik. It goes from -3 to -1. srsly. Only use Zelda to kill.

Sleep well!
 

Fuujin

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Double posting in ur threads.
Sheik
MK
-1




O lawd,
this will not end well.
Isn't it best to start with the lower tiered less important characters first?
usually when these things start with all the high tiers, after they get done no one cares about the bad characters and everyone stops contributing.

but this is the real match up thread?
Like the serious one right?
I WILL TRY to contribute....

MK -4
Glide attack is the least of our concerns...
Zelda has nothing on a spaced, D tilt, f tilt, D air, Nado...
this is a pretty bad MU.
If the MK player is super defensive Zelda can't get in (un surprisingly).
If the MK is super aggressive Zelda can't really do anything either.
She has no answer to a spaced F tilt on the ground and no answer to a spaced D air in the air.
You just have to pretty much hope the MK doesn't know the match up very well.
Try your best to stay on the ground, though a good MK won't let that happen.
If you can score a sweet spotted LK or spike really early and maybe throw the MK off his game that could help with the match.
MKs often don't know how to approach Zelda very well as most of them approach from the ground which makes things easier for Zelda.
If you get knocked offstage while playing a good MK, you're either dead or expect to eat a good 30 damage.
Stage wise...it doesn't really matter.
There aren't enough bans to nullify Meta Knight.
If you ban RC, there's always Brinstar, Delfino, etc.
I sometimes just CP Pictochat in hopes something dumb will happen to the MK.
Tilt your shield up to block Nado, don't try to punish it if the MK knows what they're doing.

CP: FD, SV, Picto
Ban: Delfino, RC, Brinstar, Halberd, Norfair


Praying for this thread right now.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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-3

Things to watch out for:

Glide attack outranges EVERYTHING we have. And it kills. Have fun.
D-smash is as fast as ours, stronger, less laggy with more range and transcendant priority. F-smash *might* beat it sometimes.
Zelda has nothing on well spaced dtilt and ftilt
His dair beats our up-smash when spaced properly at the side (not directly above, where out up-smash will win easily)
Din's Fire doesn't work. Don't try it unless he's offstage.
Tornado/Shuttle loop is bayd. If they spam it, even Zelda can punish it. If they don't, then it's pretty safe.

We kill him at 100%.
Press down b. Even if you can't use Sheik. It goes from -3 to -1. srsly. Only use Zelda to kill.

Sleep well!
Once again Sheik isn't the magic cure pill to fix Zelda's problem the MU is horrible for sheik and Zelda both either way you're going to get ***** by MK.

-3
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
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O lawd,
this will not end well.
Blame the BBR for their matchup chart kthx.

Edit:

Oh dear! It appears I was wrong!

Okay, I hearby boost Zelda's matchup up to -4 and Sheik's to -2.

Basically what Fuujin said is pretty accurate.

But I'd already said most of it. lol
 

Alacion

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Alacion
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I"m starting from the top because the personal mu thread started from the bottom up.

One more thing, I'll take the average ratio from everybody and round the result (ie. 0.49 and below rounds down, and 0.50 and up round up).
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Okay so... let's try to keep this thread less cluttered by trying not to repeat things other people have already said.

To that end, I'll have to say that, so far, I agree with things Fuujin and Aerodome have said so far about the matchup.

As for other considerations, here are some things not said yet:
Din's Fire:
--- It CAN beat tornado . . . but not consistently, so it's not worth using if he is close enough to punish her for Din's's (yeah... that's how I'm gonna make that word posessive) cooldown. If he's retreating with it though as part of a mind game, feel free to try.
--- NEVER use Din's when MK can reach you, because if he CAN, he will, and it will hurt.
--- MK will almost always make it back to the stage anyway , so feel free to throw dins at him for some potential free damage.
--- If you hop first, A downward-angled Din's Fire will stage spike MK if he tries to loop under the stage (some do just to show off and they often forget it isn't safe Vs. Zelda)

Spacing is the KEY to this matchup. Zelda and metaknight have similar ranges but metaknight can more safely poke. In fighting MK, DO NOT GET FRUSTRATED. There WILL be occasions in the matchup where he manages to outspace your attacks or pull some **** that you REALLY don't think he should have been able to. The worst thing you can do is start to get frustrated due to this and play recklessly like you are OWED some free damage since you feel that you were cheated out of it earlier.

As for Dsmash, I think ours comes out in 4 frames and his in 5 . . . not that that's a huge difference, but I think, actually, only ROB's is as fast as ours.

Thank God MK is banned now since he's just a terrible matchup for us. In any case, I think the most important thing said so far was said by Fuujin:
If you get knocked offstage while playing a good MK, you're either dead or expect to eat a good 30 damage.
This matchup is certainly not in our favour ON the stage, but ON the stage it's probably only about 40:60 give or take . . . . the problem is, once he gets us in the AIR (especially off the stage) we just BEG to be destroyed, or, at least, heavily damaged. That is what does us in this matchup.

Sheik is harder to Gimp, but at least Zelda can kill. Using either alone doesn't really work. Using both in tandem makes the matchup winable (though a BAD sheik is going to get destroyed worse than a BAD Zelda, in my experience) so don't play as Zelda/Shiek if you CAN'T.


As for what the matchup ratio is . . . . I'mma say 75:25 in MK's favour . . . as for your "+1, -3, etc." ratios . . . find out where you wanna put that. It's definitely easier for Zelda/Sheik though, but it is STILL not "close". I meanm it is clearly in MK's advantage even then.
 

Alacion

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Thanks everybody for contributing so much to this thread. When the discussion starts to die down, I'll be changing the discussion to the next character.

I think the matchup is -4. It seems Meta Knight completely outspaces Zelda on the ground, and since Zelda's game relies so heavily on the ground / lower air space things get really difficult for her. Meta Knight's tornado is a huge problem for him. Din's Fire can beat Tornado, but MK shouldn't be at a far distance enough for Din's Fire to win to begin with. Zelda's air game is abysmal. Meta Knight completely destroys Zelda in the air. Juggling, quick attack speed... Zelda's only possible saving grace is the power in her attacks. Landing a lightning kick or up air at a mid-high percentage can take a stock.

Recovering is a huge problem for Zelda. Farore's Wind lags so much and definitely makes recovering hard. Mixing things up with diagonal love jumps may be helpful for a short while. In the end, Zelda banks the most on the opponent not knowing much about Zelda. Once Meta Knight knows the few tricks Zelda knows, she's in trouble.

Honestly, using Sheik against Meta Knight is probably the wiser decision. With needles, better mobility, and versatile recoveries, Sheik is the way to go. Grab release to DACUS is completely amazing. Think the kill is guaranteed if you can grab MK at 95%?
 

MechaWave

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I don't know what any of that stuff means.
I know, I just put it there. The only line you should read is the first one. That tells the game how many frames to wait until the hitbox can hit another character. In this case, Zelda waits 2 frames, and then executes the hitboxes. It's a proof image, really.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I know, I just put it there. The only line you should read is the first one. That tells the game how many frames to wait until the hitbox can hit another character. In this case, Zelda waits 2 frames, and then executes the hitboxes. It's a proof image, really.
So what does the other stuff mean? I see three different asynchronous values and two different synchronous value. Not to mention that other stuff. Also how can you tell from that the frame advantage on shield.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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This is one of the few match ups that Sheik actually has a reliable kill set up on.
I get that, but I don't find it too easy to "reliably" grab metaknight. Zelda, on the other hand, can kill with half of her moveset.

None of her attacks are as reliable as sheik's grab-release DACUS, but she does, again, have more options. Outside of that setup, I really don't think shiek has many kill options on MK. I'm not sure how easy it is for MK to avoid getting grabbed by shiek, but if MK can play cautiously enough to avoid that, don't think you'll be killing him until fairly high %'s.

Once MK has hit triple digit damage, if you haven't killed him yet, I would think it would be easier to land a killing blow with Zelda than it would be to DACUS with shiek. Then again, I have a better Zelda than I do Shiek, so I could be off base. In any case, having the OPTION to use Zelda is never a bad thing. At worst, it's incosequential.
 

Fuujin

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Double posting in ur threads.
I get that, but I don't find it too easy to "reliably" grab metaknight. Zelda, on the other hand, can kill with half of her moveset.
Ganon can kill with about 80% of his moveset.
By your logic Ganon has an easier time killing MK than Peach, Sheik, Samus, Pit, etc.

None of her attacks are as reliable as sheik's grab-release DACUS, but she does, again, have more options.
I'd love to hear this myriad of options she has.

Once MK has hit triple digit damage, if you haven't killed him yet, I would think it would be easier to land a killing blow with Zelda than it would be to DACUS with shiek.
You've never played a super defensive MK, have you?

If MK can play cautiously to avoid Sheiks grab then he sure as hell can play cautiously to avoid 90% of Zelda's moveset.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Ganon can kill with about 80% of his moveset.
By your logic Ganon has an easier time killing MK than Peach, Sheik, Samus, Pit, etc.
that's not really the same comparison at all.

Turning to Zelda for the kill from sheik is like playing pit for the majority of the match and then, at your command switching to bowser or ike to land a killing blow. It doesn't mean you'd want to play as bowser or ike for the majority of the matchup, it just means that, once your foe is to a certain point, bowser or ike would kill him with prety much anything they connect with.

(terrible ghetto GIF)

That's a very...optimistic viewpoint.
No. It's undeniable fact. Being ABLE to play two characters as oposed to one character cannot be WORSE than playing either one alone if you are not FORCED to play both. It means, at worst, one character is not helpful to the matchup and so won't be used and, at best, use of both characters in tandem creates a better result than either alone or you get a free counterpick mid-match, but having additional options that you are not obligated to use can, in no possible way, be a negative thing. Only a fool would argue otherwise.

But, you know, whatever. Obvious troll is obvious. No more food for you.
 

KuroganeHammer

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DACUS is only reliable if you can do it. Obviously.

But we're talking Zelda here guize.

Just do the damage racking (majority of the work) with Sheik, kill with Zelderp.
 

Fuujin

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Double posting in ur threads.
Lol so what do you do?
Play with Sheik until MK gets to 100 and switch to Zelda and do a running up smash?

Or maybe mind game him into running into forward smash?

Or spam back air until the MK runs into it right?

All much more reliable than GR to Dacus apparently.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Hm... where do Sheilda discussions belong?
Honestly, I think that any discussion of a Zelda OR a Shiek matchup should assume sex-changing will be used when necessary so I think whe should cover the best choices in every matchup here (though, of course, we can give “Zelda only” ratings as well for all the purists out there)
 

KuroganeHammer

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Lol so what do you do?
Play with Sheik until MK gets to 100 and switch to Zelda and do a running up smash?

Or maybe mind game him into running into forward smash?

Or spam back air until the MK runs into it right?

All much more reliable than GR to Dacus apparently.
Of course. :)

My point was, this is the ZELDA boards.

You cannot expect every Zelda player to know how to DACUS out of a GR with Sheik.

Honestly, we need a Sheilda board, but I know it wouldn't get enough attention. lol

But yeah. ~

Edit:

OH LOOK I JUST LOST A STOCK TRYING MY BEST TO GRAB MK AND DACUS HIM

BUTT I CANT DACUS SO WHY AM I TRYING THIS??
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Honestly, I think that any discussion of a Zelda OR a Shiek matchup should assume sex-changing will be used when necessary so I think whe should cover the best choices in every matchup here (though, of course, we can give “Zelda only” ratings as well for all the purists out there)
I'll disagree with this for some of us that only go Zelda (or shiek) it's rather pointless to see a MU discussion that goes press down B. That really doesn't tell anyone the MU as Zelda (or sheik).


Of course. :)

My point was, this is the ZELDA boards.

You cannot expect every Zelda player to know how to DACUS out of a GR with Sheik.

Honestly, we need a Sheilda board, but I know it wouldn't get enough attention. lol

But yeah. ~

Edit:

OH LOOK I JUST LOST A STOCK TRYING MY BEST TO GRAB MK AND DACUS HIM

BUTT I CANT DACUS SO WHY AM I TRYING THIS??
If you can't Dacus then get into training mode and learn how to DACUS. If you can't GR DACUS then get into training mode and learn how to do it. I seriously see know reason why you wouldn't learn this if A you play shiek and B are a tourney player. When you have kill set ups on one of the best and most played characters (region dependant) you need to learn anything possible in order to get an edge in said MU. God knows sheik needs all the help she can get in the MU.


Hm... where do Sheilda discussions belong?
The shielda boards....oh wait.
 

AlanHaTe

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well, everyone has said pretty much of the problems we have, but isn't there anything to make it a little not that horribly bad?

the spaced tilts... well, the only things I can think of we can do are:

A) PS and Dsmash
B) get out of there

Glide attack isn't much of a trouble as Fuujin already said... we can easily Usmash it...

Nado isn't a big problem if you know what you're doing or he's not using it when we try to land...

What to do?

A) PS the nado and tilt our shield up to avoid getting shield poked

B) time and perfectly space Fsmash if and only if you know he will use nado to aproach... our Fsmash can hit through nado but as I just said it needs to be perfectly timed and spaced or else you will trade... try to time and space it so the last hitbox is the one that will hit(remmeber that hitbox is slightly bigger)

C) Usmash OoS

D) if we get popped up from nado we can Nair, Bair(not sure how to sweetspot it but can happen) and Nayru's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43m9ifAQmbY&feature=channel_video_title

this video has some "evidence" of what I said is true(at least the nado stuff), not the best MK though but still shows that we can actually do someting about nado.

Fsmash nado punish 0:09

Nayru's nado punish 0:15

if we get off stage... well there's not much we can do to survive... the best thing to do is to mix-up our options to get back on stage

stage wise MK's generally ban FD, so if you're lucky and have pictochat as an option I think it's the best option against him, or any stage you feel super confortable with, anyways it will be a super hard MU.

-3
 

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AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
If you can't Dacus then get into training mode and learn how to DACUS. If you can't GR DACUS then get into training mode and learn how to do it. I seriously see know reason why you wouldn't learn this if A you play shiek and B are a tourney player.
WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE MISSING THE POINT GARGARGARGAR

*ragequits*

:phone:
 

KuroganeHammer

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DACUS is only reliable if you can do it. Obviously.

But we're talking Zelda here guize.

Just do the damage racking (majority of the work) with Sheik, kill with Zelderp.
My point was, this is the ZELDA boards.

You cannot expect every Zelda player to know how to DACUS out of a GR with Sheik.
read plz

My point was if you have never used Sheik before (like yourself; AL) you are not going to magically be able to DACUS at any time you want. It takes months of practise to get it even at the 80% mark.

Okay?

You understand? If you don't, Fuujin, plz post an appropriate gif.
 

MechaWave

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So what does the other stuff mean? I see three different asynchronous values and two different synchronous value. Not to mention that other stuff. Also how can you tell from that the frame advantage on shield.
OK, I'll explain in simple terms.

The synchronous value means how long the hitboxes above should stay out. Terminate Collisons means... well, terminate the hitboxes above. The other async. timer is for the other hitboxes for when Zelda hits behind her.

So the first hitboxes take 2 frames to execute (async.), lasts 3 frames (sync.), and the other hitboxes take 8 frames to execute (async.) and lasts 5 frames (sync.).

The other stuff isn't really important.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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read plz

My point was if you have never used Sheik before (like yourself; AL) you are not going to magically be able to DACUS at any time you want. It takes months of practise to get it even at the 80% mark.

Okay?

You understand? If you don't, Fuujin, plz post an appropriate gif.
I never used sheik before? Anyways your point is still mute since you're going to have to practice it and go into training mode if you want to be able to do it.

I understand.
What I don't understand is why were talking about Sheik....
Well when the accepted consensus around the boards & in the guide that Zelda's best move is to down B this is what you get. You can't say the type of things you've said and then ask why sheik is being talked about.
 

Alacion

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... why must AL derail every productive thread in the Zelda boards? It goes without saying that Sheik > Zelda in almost every situation maybe except against the Ice Climbers and Pikachu. Despite this, yes we are still talking about Zelda's matchups.

Let's get back on track please. Diddy to be discussed in 1-2 days.

Edit: DACUS is very difficult. I think I have a 75-80% success rate with it, and let me tell you it was NOT easy getting consistent with it. Why don't you get it down first AL before saying learning and being consistent with it is as easy as going into Training?
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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... why must AL derail every productive thread in the Zelda boards? It goes without saying that Sheik > Zelda in almost every situation maybe except against the Ice Climbers and Pikachu. Despite this, yes we are still talking about Zelda's matchups.

Let's get back on track please. Diddy to be discussed in 1-2 days.

Edit: DACUS is very difficult. I think I have a 75-80% success rate with it, and let me tell you it was NOT easy getting consistent with it. Why don't you get it down first AL before saying learning and being consistent with it is as easy as going into Training?
because back when I was learning sheik that's what I did? I don't play sheik and wouldn't bother switching to sheik right now so there's literally no reason for me to learn it. However, you guys believe sheik is the magic cure pill for Zelda so you're going to need to learn things like GR > DACUS. As for derailing the thread the MU discussion is pretty much talking about Sheik, crying about not being able to GR DACUS, or wondering why sheik is being discussed.....sorry to derail that.

Down B is Zelda's best option in 90% time tho....
So Courier you may as well change the title to Sheik match up discussion.
If that's how you feel then there's no need to ask why sheik is being discussed in the MU thread is there? People are just going with what they think is Zelda's best option in the MU.
 

KuroganeHammer

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So yeah. -4.

Edit: Yeah, I must apologise. Apparently suggesting to go Sheik because the matchup for solo Zelda is pretty much impossible isn't allowed.

Carry on.
 
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