Which tiers are viable in competitive play?

What game are you guys playing where Zelda isn't complete and total ***?

I play Doc and fox makes me want to quit this game sometimes.

I still wanna play Shroomed. with my Yoshi.

I love your Doc man

Dash dancing in a of itself does not harm Zelda that much. The disadvantages you state of her are true, but you forget to mention that she has an extremely powerful move that has little lag. If you watch Cosmo play, he is put in very little danger from whiffing a kick. In fact you'll often seem he short hop, whiff the kick, opponent tries to counter attack, and gets hit by the second kick of that same short hop. You're making a gross overexaggeration of Fox's abilities if you think that dash dancing is all he needs to do to win the match up.

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Dash dancing does cripple her because she can't interact with it that much (most of the time her only real option is to wait for her opponents to attack her out of dash dance and guess when they're gonna do that). She doesn't have even mediocre tools like Mario's fireballs to force the opposing character to do something. She can approach (risky), or fake approach (bait). That's it.

Fox clearly can't just dash dance for eight minutes and win the match. But combined with the incremental advantage of sparingly used lasers and the fact that he resets to neutral really easily (because she sucks at engaging people on platforms, people above her, etc.) and you have a crappy MU.

The whole bit about second aerial sounds like nonsense. Everyone should know Zelda can kick twice. If you suck at timing, you aim to punish the second kick (or continue to camp if she retreats and build advantage). That's anti-Zelda 101. Alternatively, you aim for her face because her up moves suck and doing an arc to hit her face and avoid her kick zones isn't hard with Fox because... he's Fox. Momentum and stuff.

I also feel to stress that part of the reason we still have this fallacious thinking that Fox is clearly number one is because people seem to think laser camping if done right is nearly invincible. You'd think after watching enough of Axe vs Jman, people would see the error in this thinking but I guess not. The problem with laser camping in this matchup(any match up really) is that it forces Fox to the EDGE. If Zelda kicks him at the edge he is as good as done for. Zelda's dsmash is great for edge guarding Fox because it will beat his up B everytime(Cosmo's words, not mine) so it just isn't that much of a problem. Laser camping isn't that effective which is why you don't see to many foxes commit to it(except vs Puff) you may notice the one player that pioneers that style is Jman who also happens to be the best Fox playe rin the country. The reason he is able to make it work(sometimes) is because he is the best fox main out there, it's an extremely risk strategy that needs to be done right to be effective.

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I never said laser camping done right is invincible. I said that in a lot of MUs Fox is best played to control certain positions that rob the opponent of their ability to interact with him in a meaningful way. This does not necessarily involve lasers. They're relevant in Zelda's case because, well, Zelda has no approach. And terrible zoning. All she can do it bait. Once you realize this, and realize she can bait in a lot of situations that other characters cannot bait in, her abilities decline sharply.

Your whole bit about the edge completely disregards that Zelda is not Pikachu, Ganon, Peach, Sheik, or whatever and she does not have a beastly game underneath Fox (or other characters) because she literally lacks good moves that hit above her. Again, this narrows her range. Alternative defense & positional strategies therefore become buffed against her and it removes the need to back up so much (because "above" is a real option against her; if you say she can FJ kick I'm gonna slap you because Fox positioning to preemptively counter that strat is expected of him).

The fact that she can't approach quickly and her ground game is vulnerable to a whole bunch of common defensive stuff (and even offensive stuff, but that's another matter entirely) exacerbates these issues.

The only thing I kind of think you're correct on is that if Fox is stupid it probably is easier to just pelt her with pressure until she dies (and she's pretty crap against that as long as you space to not get kicked) because of how bad she is in close range. I think it's probably the easier strategy for most Fox players, but that's got more to do with this game's defensive (and stereotypically "gay") avenues being underused among many of its top players because, well, it's more fun to hit people.

Honestly KK it seems as if you just want to believe that Zelda is an awful character instead, of making a fair analysis.

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I am open to the idea that I have some bias against her, but I think you're also latching onto extremely limited aspects of the argument and not paying attention to everything else. Including alternative strategies, easy transitions between strategies, and important zones. This is particularly evident when you bust out AXE vs Jman and try to use that as a means to explain why Zelda might be underrated. Pikachu and Zelda fare very differently versus that strategy (and are extremely different in general), and it has a lot to do with speed and Pikachu's up air being massive.

I really enjoyed this post about ranges/zones I do feel far what You've said that a sh kick still has room for mix-ups other than retreating kick could double jump backwards kick to avoid a full hop nair(thinking fox). Keep going forward with the kicks to hit them if they expect You to retreat and are closing in for that(small range change, but i'd think if you used this small mix-up it might help). and of course waveland back.

However I only sometimes play the zedla vs marth match-up so I can't comment on it too much, becuase he likes to fair and abuse throws.

I would like to think in zones a bit more at times different way to look for me. I really enjoy How much smash focus on smart movement.

I was really hoping to play Donkey Kong, I would play him in Smash 64 where he's a bit more viable but in all honesty I can't stand using him because he looks like he has down syndrome in that game.

At which point do tiers begin to matter?

Does the average person even reach a state where the lower tier characters are completely outclassed by the top tiers?

Are there any examples of DK players who have won respected tournaments?

DK is infinitely more fun in 64/Brawl than Melee, so much more substance than just bair > up throw > uair

That's definitely not true, just because all you see is DK going cargo to uair only, doesn't mean that's the only thing he has, his hitboxes are huge.

Station said:

At which point do tiers begin to matter?

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Very shortly after advanced tactics come into play. Without ATs available the best character would arguably be Sheik.

Station said:

Does the average person even reach a state where the lower tier characters are completely outclassed by the top tiers?

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Yes, it becomes apparent very quickly once you have reached the level of incorporating wavedashes and l-cancels into the game. Characters like Fox or Falco will be getting what seem like easy KOs while you will feel like you're working a lot harder to get them with the lower-tiered characters.

Station said:

Are there any examples of DK players who have won respected tournaments?

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Nope, not any large tournaments. I can't even think of one where a DK main was top 10.

Practice real hard and your DK will one day be as good as... Strong Bad, lol.

Hmm.. I guess you forgot Bum and Pkm.

Here's how I see it: Low tiers are always viable to some degree, but to be successful with a low tier you need to be *much better* than your opponent. In other words, if you're at an equal skill with your opponent and it's a high tier vs. a low tier, you'll have trouble putting up a serious fight. But, as long as there is room for you to improve and become a better player than your opponent, you can win out with a low tier.

So, I think the player's skill level matters much more than character tier, at least until you're hitting top-level play.

Divinokage said:

Hmm.. I guess you forgot Bum and Pkm.

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It's hard to forget when you've never even heard of them.

PKM got 9th at OC3 going all DK fyi. How can you be from 2006 and not know these things? Psh.

Never heard of Bum or Pkm? That's embarrassing

I'm not too fantastic with names to begin with.

Luckily I have other talents which more than make up for that minor deficit.

honestly dk mains don't even matter it's nbd if you let them drop off your radar they're not gonna be real good suddenly someday

A tier list is essentially a list of a character's known capability.

No matter how skilled the player, they simply can't go beyond a character's capability. Luckily no person can even reach that threshold.

Essentially, the lower tier your character is the more difficult it is to be successful because you have to get closer to that maximum capability of your character to be on par with high tiers. Reaching that maximum capability gets almost exponentially more difficult. (But this is obviously generally speaking, hypothetical, and very character specific.)

A good way to think of this is like Axe using Pikachu at 90%+ efficiency vs. a player using Sheik at ~70% efficiency. (Lets assume a 50:50 MU for now) This match would, hypothetically, be an even match but it's clear that Axe put a lot more work and practice into his character. Therefore 90%+ Pikachu is equal to ~70% sheik because Sheik has more capability.

These are, of course, opinions. Also, this doesn't even begin to mention the disadvantages of matchups.

lol i loooove when pepole talk about zelda

and I always miss putting imput when the steak gets juicy

I had my A1 and everything

but now...

i grow hungrier

and weak...

zeldaisntthatbadtehe

Zelda's down+b is one of the best moves in the game. :3

what do you think of zelda vs. peach?

puff wins.
10 bairs.

It's easier to reach the max potential of lower tiers because they are more limited imo. There's simply less to understand to master. lol. For example, being consistent with Ganon tech skill is much easier than Fox technical (Of course) There's just less things to worry about.

When I play Falco in friendlies, my hands hurt after only 2 hours and also my mind is hurt too because of the amount of options this character has, it's freaking crazy... which is why I think it's much harder to master.

Divinokage said:

It's easier to reach the max potential of lower tiers because they are more limited imo. There's simply less to understand to master. lol. For example, being consistent with Ganon tech skill is much easier than Fox technical (Of course) There's just less things to worry about.

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With low tiers they're easier to play from a technical standpoint (minus Yoshi) and have a narrower range of options to master but on the same note they are harder to play mentally it seems because they require you to play fundamentally better than your opponent to hide your own weaknesses. This requires more guess work and knowledge of your opponent's character and how they are going to try and use their character's advantages in the matchup and getting around their advantages over you and turning them on themselves.

Well I mean everyone trying to reach the top level will need to understand everything about their character anyways.. how their tools work and why certain tools suck in certain situations and why they are good in others. I mean I did practice crazy amounts of time before because I really wanted to improve, basically every 2nd day I would go to play Vwins/Bam/Pkm/Chester for minimum 8 hours a day (It went up to 15 hours at times lol) to try to beat them and understand why I'm getting owned all the time. It's impossible to be pro without grinding a lot. The way I did it is basically pick out the situations where I'm getting punished in and try not to do it again. Like for example, doing a downtilt on someone's shield with Ganon, I knew eventually that this is unsafe and this is why like Fox for example would be able to do an aerial before I'm able to recover. (Though it doesn't mean it's unsafe on every match-up, again lots of practice with every match-up because certain characters would be too slow to punish it.) Things like that, oh ya and also fixing habits of course, like rolling from the ledge often or like rolling away from the opponent when he's invincible. lol.

Eventually, I understood their strength amd weaknesses, yes. I knew I was slow so I needed to be extra precise with my moves, I knew I can't be off-stage because I would die 100% for sure so I trained to have more control in general. I know he has a lot of range so I used it to it's max potential.. I knew his hitboxes are pretty ridiculous so I tried to find ways to abuse it. (Shield-stabs on full shields) =)

I normally always wanted to fight players better than me because I thought I would learn the most from them. I guess I'm lucky to have had really strong players to begin with, they definitely understand the game at a high level. Everytime I played them I travelled 3 hours to get to them, I REALLY wanted it, do you? =)

I dunno that we're on the same page... I was trying to say that playing low tiers requires more knowledge or predictions of your opponent and your opponent's character, as opposed to knowing how your own characters abilities can win the matchups because there are less techniques and advantages to abuse. So while technically lower tiers are easier to play, mentally they are more difficult because to beat a high tier you are going to have to outplay and out-guess your opponent... Or you have to get in their head lol.

Hmm I don't think so because regardless for example Fox is Fox and he's going to throw things at you, so if you understand your character then you'll know how to counter-attack and do things in a way to deceive him.

Ice Climbers can win a national, with or without Wobbling. Wobbles and Fly have beaten all sorts of top players, but they still haven't done superbly well (except Wobbles at Apex 2010). They even make the Peach match-up look doable.

Everyone down can't in my opinion.

Divinokage said:

Hmm I don't think so because regardless for example Fox is Fox and he's going to throw things at you, so if you understand your character then you'll know how to counter-attack and do things in a way to deceive him.

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If you and your opponent are of the same skill level though and he plays Fox and you play a low tier how are you gonna beat him without some trickery or a well thought out strategy coming into the set how are you going to win since you're taking two players of even skill and giving one more tools to win?

I'm not sure if it's necessary to over-complicate it like that. I'll try to say it in the way I understand the match-ups.

Ganon vs Fox. How I'm winning is basically learning to not be in positions where my weaknesses are glaring, for example, getting comboed by him. I always have to be careful to not let him inside or on me because that's where I'm the weakest, since Ganon has no options oos so I can't really counter-attack him in that position, I'm going to have to roll or wavedash in or away before he hits me. And also learning to DI and SDI to escape the combos, absolutely needed for me. Also, I definitely have less tools to work with of course which is why I said before I have to be extra precise, I'll have to probably bait him to attack me first by tricking him. Like empty safe jumps where he can't hit me, DDing close to him, or poke him on his shield to force something out. That means yes I always have a plan when I'm fighting... but that's also because I trained every situation countless times.

PP said before plenty of times that you need to work with positional advantage and I believe i know what he means now. Part of it is basically knowing what tools you CAN use at certain ranges in between you and your opponent. Sometimes I'll have to waveland off the platform to add to my trickeries, though that's not really only limited to Ganon but it helps a lot since I can throw a huge hitbox out there sometimes to keep my opponent close to the ledge. Also, I have to be careful NOT to always throw out a move because if I do, I know I can get punished before I'm able to throw it out or after it has been thrown out. Again that's another plan I have when I play... it's really about understanding your character to the maximum.

I hope this makes it more clear for you.

I think I get what you're saying, like understanding you opponent's character and the strategies you can have coming in to a match with that character is a part of understanding your own character and also that reads and tricks are also are about understanding the tendencies of how other characters play your character and therefore further understanding of your character.

You have to know what the opponent is looking for in certain positions. The game is about putting the character off-stage asap. So when you both are in the middle, then you can think like.. Will he try to grab? Will he try to DD to bait me? Will he Nair me or Dair me? Will he laser away from me? Will he try to jump above me to again bait another aerial so he can counter attack me with his own? Examples, like that. You have to know how to counter-attack all possible situations. Like if he does Nair me then now I know I can back-jump Fair. If he full jumps I know I can upair him away. If he DJs above then maybe I shouldn't throw out anything and wait before he lands.

Eventually, yes you can definitely pick out the player's tendencies and you can abuse that fact to make your strengths more visible for your character. Absolutely with any character you play, you have to know what he's looking for that's how you hide your weaknesses and that of course depends on the match-up. This is exactly why I may tend to make bad match-ups look like they are more even.

So ya, the battle going on if I can describe it.. would be like a spiral of adaptation. =P

Of course, this mindset is about my character which looks like a more defensive mindset, if I want to pressure him then I can pressure him with tilts or quick jabs to disrupt his movement which may result in him being panicked and it will be easier to read him inside this position.

Well actually.. if I do play Falco, I mean there's hell of a lot more things that you can look for, for sure.. so I guess it's the same principle in the end.. except you can think of x100 more things to do lmao.

I agree with warhawk...

I feel like at higher level, its more player vs player than character vs character.
the character is a factor, of course, but its not the main thing.

Players must completely understand their characters of course, but they also need to understand their opponent and the game, and take advantage of that knowledge, that is why people win matches.

Low tier players must outplay their opponent, because they can't count on their character's natural ability as much as a high tier.

When a match-up is 90-10.. the weaknesses are everywhere, how do you hide that, huh? Impossible lol.

That's why in such matchups though you have to resort to a lot of strategy and prediction and maybe even trickery to give yourself a chance because your character is so disadvantaged. Mentally you have to play harder than your opponent. Its just whether you consider those particular predictions and tricks to be a part of knowing your own character or knowing your enemy or maybe both.

Whatever you need to know to win. =P

I can't even recall how many times I've heard Kage say almost exactly: "Falco has so many options. It's freakin' crazy!"

I lulz so hard every time because in my head, it sounds like his wack-*** 'Canadia meets Christopher Walken' accent. I think his voice is directly influenced by the massive amounts of warrior wisdom he is constantly dropping.

Well.. that's because the feeling never goes away when I play Falco, I'm always like "Holy ****" every time I play him lol. I don't know about you but it looks cool as hell when you go from platform to platform and then to the ground to follow up a combo with whatever you have in mind. I'm sure you guys enjoyed this actual Melee knowledge a bit. =P