Suggestions & Criticism for the Apex Series

I'm down for suggestions and crits I'm already aware of a lot of the changes that need to take place... TVs, better scheduling, enforced DQs, solid stream schedule in conjunction with the recording staff. But I'm looking forward to hearing anything else anyone has to say.

Also, I'm feeling a bit better just came from the doctors, z pack here we gooooo!

my only suggestion is keep the other fighting games, but handle them better

well...that and better time management of smash. Try to start buying cheap TVs now or something. consoles are much easier to bring than a TV for the traveling player with a setup

One problem I had, I got switched in pools the day of the tournament. This should never happen at such a large tournament. Everyone should have a certain time frame to state whether they are fine with their pool, and then it should be locked from there.

Also, seeing that a lot of hype matches often happen at the same time, you might want to consider having a few bigger TVs on the recording equipement so spectating isn't so painful. It was nearly impossible to view some hype matches due to the super small TVs and people standing up (which causes other people to stand on chairs).

Lastly, I'd prefer if you find a venue that can keep the entire place cold. It's much easier to put on more layers to stay warm, but when it's hot, people get sweaty and start smelling and crap.

Oh yeah, maybe hold on to a speakerphone in case communicating becomes an issue.

GDX covered the FGC issue I wanted to say.

Have a better way to seed the players. Should be minimum human input in my opinion. Leads to bias and all that stuff.

Many players noticed the dubs bracket was made poorly. Some areas were def. more stacked than others.
Round 2 pools seem to be done by a TO's opinion. I know this is done at locals but at huge tourneys like this we need a more official way of doing the bracket.
I also, saw a player helping the TO do the bracket. U need to watch that cuz a player could easily sue for that. Make sure yall protect yerselves

oh also, hold that **** in the summer or something

**** cold weather

GDX said:

oh also, hold that **** in the summer or something

**** cold weather

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Lmao you kidding me?

The summer time? Hmm let's see...Stuck in a venue with hundreds of other sweaty ****....Naw bro...Fall/Winter time is better my opinion. Unless the A/C keeps everyone from sweating.."EVERYONE"

im down for fall

im floridian Kage. Cant take anything below 72

have more faith in proven TO's such as Juggleguy. He already ran an extremely mega regional/ psuedo national through the Big House.

His ideas for this apex were top notch and following them would have fixed many of the problems of Apex. I'm shocked that people dismissed him when he suggested these ideas.

I think the schedule was very attractive on paper, but the Apex 2010 schedule worked out pretty much perfectly. Then again, there weren't as many entrants at 2010 either.

As for space, everyone was worried about day 3 when all of every attendee of every game would be in attendance, but it still was not THAT cramped. People thought they wouldn't be able to move at all, but in the non-stage room, there was still a good amount of walking / lounging space.

If we distribute players/games to each room more evenly, I don't think space will be an issue whatsoever. Roping off sections was also a great idea, but just done a little bit too late. It should be implemented before the tournament begins next time.

-More Set-Ups
-Mark out and clearly label some for pools and brackets and others for friendlies

I wasn't there (like a scrub) but every criticism can simply solved with "get a bigger venue"

Not enough setups? Get a bigger venue.
Too crowded; people just stayed in their hotel? Get a bigger venue.
Games had to alternate days because of space issues? Get a bigger venue.
Only 2 rounds of pools & only 4 people per pool because events had to alternate days? Get a bigger venue.
Players were turned away because there were too many of them? Get a bigger venue.
etc.

Your advertising/community relations was almost too good. Alex is really, really good at that sort of stuff so I'd use him in that capacity (just like Juggleguy is a god damn machine at running tournaments). I'd keep relations with the Rutgers guys (maybe host another, smaller national there a year...call it the i dunno...ZENITH series or something), but APEX has clearly outgrown that venue. This was a major, international event. I'm happy that no overambitious risk was made (see: Pound V), but its pretty clear now that the APEX brand is ready to step it up a notch.

I'm so so so proud of you all for making APEX so huge; the Smash community has needed something like this and 2012 was a step forward, no matter the **** ups. So chin up and be even better next year!

Announce matches on deck on TVs.

Like:

Player A vs Player B on TV 1
Player C vs Player D on deck on TV 1 (meaning they play right after Player A vs B)

That way people should be waiting on that TV for their turn. No one will take the TV for friendlies then. Once the first match is done and reported, the 2nd one is already starting and you go from there.

lets go

i agree with the idea of getting a bigger venue. It is certainly true that apex has outgrown the rutgers venue. Seeding should be done in a way thats more considerate to the players that arent as good as others. Im not saying seed all good players separate from the less skilled, but just consider that theyre the backbone of the event because they come to try their best and try to at least beat someone so scrub vs. Scrub should be done more often. Maybe do something like have pools for random scrubs and leave all the top players alone till brackets? Its just a suggestion im not a T.O or anything so i dont know why or why not that would be bad and as for who would qualify for top players. I suppose just checking the recent tournament results. That would prolly even give smashers more motivation to attend and place higher in more tournaments so they can "qualify out of pools" again shut me up if im wrong cause idk how T.O.'ing works but that seems to me like a viable thing to dp. Anyway, as for setups go. Having smashers air mail set ups to the venue also sounds viable. Idk if thats already done or if its a sucky idea but, i feel it could work as long as smashers are willing to pay for the shipping cost. Yurp.

^You might as well have a amateur bracket to cover this.

Apex 2013 huh? I can't wait! Also, more set ups I guess.

so i told my buddy about some of the problems with organizing apex and he was like "why dont they do it just like yugioh?" i laughed but then realized i didnt have an amazing answer.

if a printer is available you could just print out all the pools with who is the ref and which tvs they are on (obv multiples pools per page) then post multiple copies of the lists at 2-3 different locations. of course the tvs will have to be in an obvious order, but mainly it puts all the responsibility on the players to find where they need to be. none of that "well i know i can be late and just wait for dm to give me a warning". the pools will have a time limit, and when time's up its up.

this is the same way card game tournaments (among other things im sure) handle 800+ people through 9 or w/e rounds of swiss. of course if not all the pools can be handled at once with how many setups are there, the latter pools with secondary spots on setups would prob have to have a time posted for when to be there. and otherwise i would just say have a clearer mic/sound system for announcing junk lol

I went to a career fair at the same exact venue on the day before Apex and they handed out maps of the venue. Like, there was a directory saying that so-and-so employer was at table 57, and then I was able to look on the map to see where it was (more precisely it showed me what row of tables contained tables numbered 5X). I think that nationals could benefit from something like this in conjunction with systematic numbering.

In the main room, there were like 5 rows of TVs and then one row on each side. I think it would have been easier to find specific TVs if all TVs in the row closest to the stage had "1" as the first digit and then the second digit ascended as you moved right. So, TV 10 would have been at the front left. Let's say this row had 13 TVs. The front right TV would then be called TV 113. If someone brings a TV and puts it in between TVs 14 and 15, call it TV 14a. All TVs in the second row would have "2" as the first digit. For the ones on the left and right, just make L and R the respective first "digit." (so you'd have like TV L1, for example).

That's just an example - it can be modified into something more intuitive. What I'm trying to get at is something similar to how they number seats at an auditorium or stadium, or rooms in a building. In an auditorium, typically all seats in the orchestra section start with 1. Seats in the mezzanine start with 2 and seats in the balcony start with 3. Then whether or not the 3rd digit is odd or even designates if the seat is on the left or right side.

treat us like ******* and put a map of the TV's with corresponding numbers and point to the tv on the map when u call out our matches

Thanks for the suggestions guys, keep em' coming!

It sounds like the issues at Apex were due to the sheer volume of players. You need to make sure you have sufficient authoritative staffing to keep smashers in line and have a pool captain on every pool. It is also very important to rotate between teams and singles rounds of pools so that you have sufficient time while one is being done to input results into TIO and arrange the next round of pools for the teams/singles.

Really though until smashers grow up and realize they are largely contributing to preventing the community from moving forward there isn't all that much you can do. Smashers must learn to actually be on time, wait for their matches while in a pool/on deck rather than leaving for WHATEVER reason (friendlies, food, sleep, weed, etc), and record/report their matches accurately. Without these basic fundamentals being solved then we will continue to have this problem in any large scale national. This directly impacts the amount of time consumed, setups needed, and the amount of friendlies players get to play. It seems like everyone is so quick to rationalize why it is okay to make the tournament wait 10 minutes for you. "It's only 10 minutes!" Yes, but TOing for so long I can contest to the fact that it is another player looking for a reason for an extension every 5 minutes.

As for the people saying "get a bigger venue" it is WAY easier said than done. There is a huge gap between the price of larger venues at colleges/fairgrounds and even bigger venues. There is also a lot more to the contracts that you have to really pay attention to when you go to bigger venues like hotels, event plazas, etc (as I learned first hand). Not to mention when you scale up size of venues they tend to be at more refined places which is obviously not what the smash community is about (as I learned first hand).

Bottom line is before you point blame and asks the TO's to grow and make more and more improvements, make sure you are willing to do your own part as well.

Plairnkk said:

As for the people saying "get a bigger venue" it is WAY easier said than done.

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Oh no doubt. There is a reason I'm sitting behind my computer critiquing rather than hosting a large, international event. This ****s hard.

But they can't just host another 1000+ person event (and I'm assuming next year will be even BIGGER) and expect different results. Its just not going to work.

愛sight said:

How does getting a bigger venue get us more setups, out of curiosity? Unless by bigger venue you mean a warehouse full of CRTs lying around.

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A warehouse full of CRTs? *swoon*

I was under the impression that much of the reason there weren't enough setups was because there wasn't enough ROOM for more setups. Plenty of people just kept their CRTs in their car/hotel room.

The Smash community is pretty freaking amazing in regards to bringing setups tbh. Just emphasize it in the month leading up to the tournament, and maybe buy a few of your own, and you'll be fine. The important thing is to have the space to put the setups lol.

TheCrimsonBlur said:

A warehouse full of CRTs? *swoon*

I was under the impression that much of the reason there weren't enough setups was because there wasn't enough ROOM for more setups. Plenty of people just kept their CRTs in their car/hotel room.

The Smash community is pretty freaking amazing in regards to bringing setups tbh. Just emphasize it in the month leading up to the tournament, and maybe buy a few of your own, and you'll be fine. The important thing is to have the space to put the setups lol.

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wrong, but i can't really blame you since you weren't there. There was in my opinion enough space even if we used one room, just that we used that space quite inefficiently

i suppose a bigger venue works in the sense that even if you ****ed up like apex management the room is so freaking big it doesn't matter

I don't think the community is as amazing at bringing setups as you are giving credit for. VGBC has provided a lot of the setups at previous nationals as well as the TO's.

At all my nationals I have had to BRIBE people to bring setups (mainly TVs) to get people to bring any. Even at that, the amount of setups is extremely sub-par. It is understandable since those flying obviously can't bring TV's, nor those driving 500 miles with a full car and tons of baggage. As a TO, I feel it is my responsibility to ensure there are sufficient setups, so I have always gone to good wills around Maryland and bought a ton of setups for $10-20 each depending on size and then stored them until the tournament. This allows you to have TV's that have no chance of being moved around/taken at night and messing up your numbering convention. It also gives you the opportunity to set up a ton the night beforehand and be more organized/save money. I think this should be a precedent in any national tournament. There is no more important factor to consider for the majority of people in the community than making sure you have sufficient setups to allow people to have optimal time playing the game they traveled so far to play. Not even prize money. :fuuu:

Plairnkk said:

I don't think the community is as amazing at bringing setups as you are giving credit for. VGBC has provided a lot of the setups at previous nationals as well as the TO's.

At all my nationals I have had to BRIBE people to bring setups (mainly TVs) to get people to bring any. Even at that, the amount of setups is extremely sub-par. It is understandable since those flying obviously can't bring TV's, nor those driving 500 miles with a full car and tons of baggage. As a TO, I feel it is my responsibility to ensure there are sufficient setups, so I have always gone to good wills around Maryland and bought a ton of setups for $10-20 each depending on size and then stored them until the tournament. This allows you to have TV's that have no chance of being moved around/taken at night and messing up your numbering convention. It also gives you the opportunity to set up a ton the night beforehand and be more organized/save money. I think this should be a precedent in any national tournament. There is no more important factor to consider for the majority of people in the community than making sure you have sufficient setups to allow people to have optimal time playing the game they traveled so far to play. Not even prize money. :fuuu:

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Where are all your setups anyway? Still in a storage facility or something? lol

I gave a bunch of them away to smashers who wanted them after each tourney and a few to VGBC.... Out of what was left over VGBC kept a few and then I gave the rest back to good will.

For the sake of this argument, lets say we get just as many attendants as this year for the next Apex (it will probably only go up, tbh).

On the Smash side of things:

1. Setups. There was obviously a lack of setups this year considering how many people we had. Brawl had to borrow the Melee TVs/Wiis just to get finished at a respectable time. The problem: CRTs are heavy, take up space, and are no longer manufactured. It's not as easy as bringing your little 20 inch LCD monitor you got for <$200. I can't wait for Nintendo to make the jump to HD with the Wii U, as this problem will be in the past. But until then, setups will remain a problem...

2. Space. As mentioned, the CRTs require a huge amount of space. Which sucks. Not to mention we had a good 800 Smash players at the venue over the weekend.

These two are really the main concerns. If we had more setups, we wouldn't have had to play Melee round 2 pools til about 2am on Friday. Not to mention we could have finished the bracket on Friday, as scheduled. Brawl has this problem even worse than Melee, of course. They didn't even finish Round 2 pools on their day, and that was with the Melee Wiis/TVs.

Additionally, with more space and setups, we could have done Melee/Brawl on both Friday and Saturday, instead of relegating each game to a single day. Probably would have got everything done on time, and before 2AM.

Friendlies aren't going anywhere. It's been mentioned before, but unlike the FGC, the Smash community finds themselves in a tough spot. No online play means the only way we could play with people across the world is through friendlies or money matches at an event like this. Again, this just goes back to setups. More setups we have, quicker we get the tournament done, more time we have for friendlies. It's as simple as that.

All in all, I think the Smash events were still run very well despite all these setbacks. People are failing to realize just how huge this event was. Even if the first two days were somewhat of a grind, day 3 was awesome and ultimately everything was done on time. To be honest, day two for Melee players wasn't that bad. I had a blast at the hotel, shooting the **** with the community. It was good stuff.

Onto the FGC:

Clearly the FGC portion of the tournament caught everyone off guard. I totally don't blame Alex, Brandon and the rest of the Apex staff for this. Apparently a bunch of the FGC staff members... didn't show up. Lets start with that.

1. Staff members need to show up. Come on now. Clearly the tournament was dismissed as a silly Smash tournament with fighting games as a side event. Then a little tournament called EVO deemed it "Road to Evo" worthy. This brings me to my next point...

2. Road to Evo. Awesome stuff. However... 3 days before the tournament? Yeah, not so awesome. Brandon mentioned that they weren't expecting the FGC to show up. And, if this wasn't an Evo event, I'm sure that room beside the Smash room would have been fine. But alas, it became an Evo event. And as soon as that happened, FGC attendance probably doubled. And I'm sure if the news broke earlier, we would have had way more. Ultimately, if we are going for the Road to Evo again next year, these guys are going to need a room on par with the Smash room. That means: air conditioning, space, microphones and all that good stuff. Again, I don't blame the staff for this, cause it clearly caught them off guard. But for next year, you guys have to be ready.


But ultimately, despite the delays, boiling hot, tiny room and lack of staff, the FGC events did end up getting done, and on time. Learning experience. Once again, I believe members of the community are blowing things out of proportion. If you look at how day 3 was handled, you wouldn't even believe all the crap that went down on Saturday. Learning experience.

Finally, something that effects both communities:

THE STREAM:

Ultimately, I have to thank Jaxel and 8wayrun for what was easily the most successful Melee/Brawl stream of all time. Although I wasn't there, I'm making my way through the archives right now and it is some great stuff. This is the standard future Smash streams will be held to.

The controversy comes in with what games are being streamed when. People wanted to see Ocean vs. M2K, and it didn't help that you could hear the hype from the other side of the room over the stream microphones. "I thought this was supposed to be a Smash event, why is Marvel on the stream?"

First of all, that was a bracket match. A bracket match that was supposed to be done on Saturday, which I'm sure would have been on the stream. But, once again, due to a lack of setups, Brawl ran way over schedule, and round 2 pools and bracket had to be done on Sunday, at the same time as top 8 for every other game. Lets not forget that this is a Road to Evo event. There is no chance in hell a bracket match from any game is going to get priority over top 8 on the stream. **** happens, and this wouldn't have been a problem if Brawl didn't run over time.


All in all, Apex was a fantastic experience being overblown by salty Smash and fighting game players alike. With a couple more setups and some more space, the tournament would have probably ran flawlessly.

TO's need to "grow a pair" and just DQ people who aren't gonna show up to their matches within 5-10 mins barring crazy circumstances. The fact it keeps happening easily sets back tournies from finishing on time. The delays stack up by a few hours.

TO's should also just DQ ppl who aren't willing to give up a friendly tv if a tourny match needs to be played. Yeah you paid to enter and get into the venue, but there are rules.

I would have liked more setups/time to play friendlies/money matches. There were many times I tried to play someone, and we just couldn't (No TV's availables or refs kicking us out).

And well, the tournament not going on so late at night (saturday) and then starting SO early the next day (Sunday) because that affects your sleep, and that directly affects your tournament performance. Which is not good for the players, because they can't do anything about it. I know that the TO's did their best to run and finish the tournament in time, which is something I appreciate a LOT, but again, I think that more TV's could have helped A LOT with Time/MM'es/Friendlies.

Besides from that. Everything was perfect.

TO's should also just DQ ppl who aren't willing to give up a friendly tv if a tourny match needs to be played. Yeah you paid to enter and get into the venue, but there are rules.

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This is reasonable. This:

theeboredone said:

TO's need to "grow a pair" and just DQ people who aren't gonna show up to their matches within 5-10 mins barring crazy circumstances. The fact it keeps happening easily sets back tournies from finishing on time. The delays stack up by a few hours.

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Is not. Mages DQ is great in theory, but if you've been waiting 3-5 hours for your match, and suddenly get hungry, or thirsty, or whatever, and end up out for half an hour, and then get DQ'd... Well, it's kind of a *****slap to say "We may have your match up at any time within the next few hours, no promises" and then turn around and say "if you're more than 5-10 minutes late after it's called, you're getting DQ'd".

Budget Player Cadet_ said:

Is not. Mages DQ is great in theory, but if you've been waiting 3-5 hours for your match, and suddenly get hungry, or thirsty, or whatever, and end up out for half an hour, and then get DQ'd... Well, it's kind of a *****slap to say "We may have your match up at any time within the next few hours, no promises" and then turn around and say "if you're more than 5-10 minutes late after it's called, you're getting DQ'd".

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You're right. I wasn't thinking about people who need to go get food and such despite the fact I've done it myself. However, it is the player's responsibility to notify the TO or whoever is in charge of calling matches. Hell, even let their opponent know, "Yo, I'm gonna go get food." However, people tend to just disappear for no reasons, and no one knows why they are gone or how. You can assume they are getting food, but they may as well just be taking a walk around or simply not reporting to their match, because they are playing friendlies.

I know what Xyro did was have a "lunch hour" so to speak. Basically, very few matches would be called, and everyone was free to leave and get something to eat. Thought it worked well for the most part. Also opened up a chance to play friendlies.

I'd say just take Plank's advice. Dude knows what's up.

Mekos said:

Have a better way to seed the players. Should be minimum human input in my opinion. Leads to bias and all that stuff.

Many players noticed the dubs bracket was made poorly. Some areas were def. more stacked than others.
Round 2 pools seem to be done by a TO's opinion. I know this is done at locals but at huge tourneys like this we need a more official way of doing the bracket.
I also, saw a player helping the TO do the bracket. U need to watch that cuz a player could easily sue for that. Make sure yall protect yerselves

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Kind of agree with this. Mekos, the doubles bracket was made using Apex qualifier points which was the reason it was so stacked in some places (so I heard) since some teams had qualifier points and others didn't. This was also a problem in first round pools where some people definitely shouldn't have gotten a higher seeding over others but did because of the qualifier points. I think either getting rid of qualifier points all together next time could work, but make sure that the people doing pools contacts someone from each region to actually give input on seeding. This could all be just bias though since the Atlantic South didn't even have a qualifier of their own, instead it was just the south which was a HOBO or WHOBO I forget. From GA to TX is almost as far as it is from GA to NJ we're not really the same region or anything. So if you do have qualifier points then a Road to Apex event should be in the Atlantic South this time. You even gave qualifier points to wifi over the Atlantic South which is pretty ridiculous (btw, take Road to Apex off of wifi, seeding based on how well you do wifi is pretty ****ing stupid).