Dash Grab Spacing and Why We Suck at Brawl

Delta-cod · Feb 2, 2012

Preface

I'd like to start this thread off by saying that post (and entire thread, actually) was originally created for the Yoshi boards to help us improve and to get some good discussion going. It received a lot of attention from people outside my intended audience, however, and those that have posted have suggested that this be moved to the competitive forum because it's such a universal concept. I agree with this. I'm also sticking with a move instead of a repost because I think the posts that are already here can be helpful to some, and I don't want them lost. They also give a good starting point for discussion.

I'd definitely like to give credit where credit is due, however. While I've understood this concept for quite some time, the terms I'm using (including "We Suck/Everyone Sucks") I pretty much took from Pierce, whom I spend a lot of time practicing with. I think the term Burst Range is a really good way of describing this concept, so I stole it. A lot of what I wrote is basically a combination of what I knew and the way Pierce worded it in his explanations to people that I've heard recently.

I'd also like to thank Iblis for a lot of the feedback he's been giving me and for fueling the discussion up until this move (and onwards, hopefully). He was also pretty much the main person keeping on me to request a move into the competitive forums. Everyone else who asked questions and helped expand on this idea has my thanks as well.

The original post, which will be right below this section, is unchanged from its original posting in the Yoshi boards. A lot of the concepts will have examples given in terms of Yoshi, but people haven't had a problem with this thus far, and questions are always welcome. Enjoy.

Burst Range and Spacing

Okay guys, so I’ve been doing a lot of practice in Teaneck lately, and one of the topics that has been coming up among us is the idea of everyone sucking at Brawl. I don’t exactly agree with the way it’s presented (we don’t suck, exactly), but the idea behind it is entirely true. I’m gonna say this right now: I don’t think any of us are extremely good players. Compared to our competition, some of us are. But in all actuality, we’re not really that good.

The topic at hand is just the simple concept of spacing.

Spacing is something that comes in different forms. I saw a video by a Melee player about it about a year ago, a little after I had “discovered” dash grab spacing, and the video sort of reaffirmed what I had been thought about why the dash grab spacing was effective.

This was the video that I stumbled on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL1F53F1DBA0A24E03

I’m going to explain spacing a bit myself here, but I highly recommend watching the video as well. It’s a Melee video, but it applies practically 100% to Brawl as well.

Spacing is NOT just spacing your moves so you hit with the edge of the hitbox or the sweetspot.

This is a VERY small component of spacing, and thinking of spacing in this manner only demonstrates a lack of good understanding of the game. Basically, if you only think of spacing in terms of hitboxes, you suck. True Spacing comes from understanding a different concept in this game: Burst Range.

Burst Range: The range at which your fastest/most useful approach option is impossible to (reasonably) react to. (For the sake of this discussion, I will assume you cannot react to a Burst Option given proper spacing. Reads/smart positioning obviously affect this, but that’s a different matter).

For Yoshi, Burst Range takes the form of Dash Grab Spacing. There is a good reason why Dash Grab Spacing is so effective, and it’s basically because of the definition of Burst Range: It’s a fast option that is practically impossible to react to at the proper spacing. The other reason why it’s so effective because the Burst Range that Dash Grab gives us is larger than the Burst Range of many other characters.

This brings me back to the concept of True Spacing. True Spacing revolves around the ebb and flow of characters into and out of each others’ Burst Range. You don’t necessarily have to be performing any action to be spacing. You just have to be present on the field. By being aware of your Burst Range, you automatically know that you control a bunch of space around you simply because of the threat of being hit with an option that you can’t really react to.

However, to space according to Burst Range, you need to be aware of the Burst Options of your opponent as well. For MK, it’s Dash Attack/Dash Grab. Snake has his Dash Attack/Mortar Slide. Marth has Dancing Blade. Diddy has Glide Toss (****ing broken). Each option has its own spacing, which is where experience/character knowledge comes in. The more you’re aware of these options, the less you get hit by them and the more you’re able to manipulate the spacing.

This kind of spacing is why you’ll find me just standing still or dashing/walking back and forth at about close-mid range in certain matches. I’m constantly aiming to adjust my spacing to enter my ideal Burst Range while staying out of my opponent’s.

The constant adjustment of spacing is very relevant to the idea of Stage Control. Controlling space, or the stage, is important to playing Brawl. After all, the goal of the game is to knock your opponent off the stage and to prevent him from coming back. This is directly related to how much stage you’re controlling. If you have a lot of stage under your control, you’re less likely to be knocked off stage, putting you far away from death. Conversely, your opponent will have little control, putting him that much closer to dying, and you that much closer to winning.

When you’re spacing according to Burst Range, the idea is to make reads or to find openings with which to approach. Your opponent will be doing the same to you. Whenever you feel pressured by your opponent’s spacing, the ideal option is usually to retreat to reset the spacing. This isn’t directly a bad thing – you end up resetting the situation. Nobody really gains anything that’s very tangible. However, if you end up retreating a couple times in succession, you’ll notice that you’re losing a lot of stage. Eventually, you won’t be able to retreat any further, and you’ll find yourself at the edge, which means you’re no longer at neutral. Having your back to the edge puts more pressure on you because you’re forced to either approach or get onto the ledge, which is further disadvantaged. Basically, the idea is to retreat when you feel pressured, but to also make sure you advance when you see your opponent retreat because he feels pressured.

Projectiles have an interesting effect on Burst Range. Characters like Toon Link don’t really have as much Burst Range as we do. He’s able to make up for that with his projectile game. His projectiles disrupt other characters’ spacing and force them to approach, basically putting them into his ideal range. Egg Toss can be used to a similar effect, although it’s not as safe. It does have very good disruption and leads to essentially an unblockable string (if they approach and shield a low tossed egg, you basically get a free grab). There’s also always the pressure that egg toss provides, since we can still dash grab instead of throwing an egg. Basically, eggs limit the opponent’s ability to get past our ideal spacing and into theirs. The threat of being grabbed still leads to the opponent retreating on occasion.

I noticed that Karamity made amazing use of Egg Toss Slide in this regard. Basically, in moments where I would walk or dash to retreat because I felt pressured or to approach when the opponent backed away, Karamity would Egg Toss Slide, continuing the Egg Zoning Pressure and adjusting his spacing according to Burst Ranges. It’s a really awesome thing, and I’ve been trying to perfect my Egg Toss Slides (you really need to be on point with them) so I can do this as well.

I’m sorta starting to go off on tangents now, so I’ll stop here. The reason I wanted to write this up is because it’s been a recurring discussion point on helping players in my region improve lately, and after having this explained to them, they typically agree that it makes sense. And it does, doesn’t it? I mean, it’s a pretty simple idea: Stay in a range where you can hit your opponent without them being able to stop it while staying in a range where they can’t do the same to you seems like a really ideal way to play. No big deal there. It just seems like most players have difficulty making clear sense of this concept before it’s explained to them. The ideas of spacing and Burst Range apply to every character, by the way. Once you understand this you can play pretty much any character at a more proficient level.

So yes, everyone sucks at this game because in general we’ve failed to grasp a universal concept and simple concept.

TL;DR – READ IT.

But as a summary:

*Spacing is not a hitbox exclusive concept.
*Spacing in terms of Burst Range is much more important.
*Burst Range is the range at which your fastest approach option is impossible to react to.
* The more complex and higher levels of spacing are based on spacing around Burst Ranges.
* This type of spacing has very noticeable effects on stage control, which in turn has a large effect on the outcome of a match.

This thread is meant for serious discussion/questions. If you don’t have anything productive to say, I WILL report you and I will hope you get infracted. This thread is also not meant to offend anyone. I just want to make sure you’re all aware of this concept so you can improve. It’s a very important thing to learn and becoming familiar with it is key to breaking a glass ceiling to advance to another level of play.

Additions

Basically, after the initial discussion from the Yoshi boards, I've decided to quote some posts up here that further explain some things that could have used further clarification. Here they are:

Burst Options

Delta-cod said:
Anyways, a Burst Option would be the option that you can use within a Burst Range that an opponent cannot realistically react to. Every move technically has its own burst range. Jabs, for example, are very fast burst options. However, because they're, well, Jabs, their effective Burst Range is quite small, making them not useful for the idea of spacing that I'm describing.

The Burst Range/Burst Option concept I'm talking about in this thread is at neutral. It has a lot to do with not being right in your opponent's face, as I consider that CQC or "Boxing", which works a lot differently since it's a lot more fast paced and usually deals with more active hitboxes.

Ideally, your Burst Option is the attack with the most range that the opponent cannot realistically react to, thus giving you the most Burst Range. You want to combine speed + range.

Vertical Burst Range

xIblisx said:
This wouldn't just apply to horizontal spacing (ground spacing; tilts and SH aerials) it would apply to vertical spacing to right? So characters that control vertical spacing pretty well like Fox or MK you would look out for moves like Shuttle Loop when you think of Vertical Burst Range true? Knowing things like this would be able to allow you to punish people who dash while their in foxtrot animation and such I'm guessing as well.

Delta-cod said:
Well, the thing is is that I'm describing spacing while at neutral here. Most neutral spacing (neither character has true momentum over the other) occurs with both characters grounded (or near grounded in the case of SHs), meaning that horizontal distance is what's most important.

I think Vertical Burst Range is important for juggling or escaping juggles. This is why Fox is good at escaping juggles because he has high vertical mobility (fast FF, high and fast DJ), but it doesn't give him much Burst Range because he can't move far horizontally with it. Like, if I'm spacing Fox well, I'm not particularly worried about him jumping at me and Dairing because he has to commit pretty hard to closing the gap between us and then Dairing, which makes him more telegraphed and sorta hurts the idea of a Burst Option.

So yeah, being able to Burst Vertically is really different than being able to Burst Horizontally. I'd say Horizontal Bursting is much more useful at a neutral state (and going back to my Fox example, he's good at that too cuz he runs fast. MK is as well), while Vertical Bursting is more useful in follow ups/escaping follow ups.

Shields
Post I referred to: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14032401&postcount=49

Delta-cod said:
Well, as a Yoshi main, I don't shield much in general. But yes, I do agree somewhat. Shielding isn't always the greatest option, but it's also not a terrible one. I do want to say this, though:

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH RUNNING AWAY.

I often find that dashing away when you feel pressured is better because it doesn't force you to commit to an option. It also causes a reset in the situation. You'll both be back at neutral, but you'll just have less stage. Shields usually change the state of the game a bit too much if they're held too long. The only downside to this is that you lose stage control, so eventually you lose the ability to do this.

I'm no expert on shields because I don't really have a conventional one, but I don't see any harm in using them. If you use them too much during spacing like this, I can see you suffering some abuse, because as you said, it is limiting to a degree. I don't see a problem with quick dashing shields to space/bait a Burst Attack (dash attack or whatever) at neutral, as long as it's not overused because your opponent will just start grabbing you. It's a weakness I have when I use a character other than Yoshi - I run in and shield too much and get grab *****.

Long conversation about this concept.

xIblisx said:
OH here is a nice ~~long~~ little convo I had with Gheb over the subject.
[COLLAPSE="Burst Spacing Conversation"][2/7/2012 4:23:07 PM] GBizzle: k
[2/7/2012 4:23:49 PM] GBizzle: fyi i not good at randomly starting conversations 0_0
[2/7/2012 4:24:01 PM] GBizzle: if you wanna chat just go ahead <_<
[2/7/2012 4:24:22 PM] Jaleel Turner: ohhh I assumed so
[2/7/2012 4:24:26 PM] Jaleel Turner: after your k
[2/7/2012 4:24:30 PM] GBizzle: XD
[2/7/2012 4:24:35 PM] Jaleel Turner: hahaha
[2/7/2012 4:24:42 PM] Jaleel Turner: but um
[2/7/2012 4:24:55 PM] Jaleel Turner: Actually I guess I do have a reason to messsage you
[2/7/2012 4:25:42 PM] Jaleel Turner: What Japanese videos would reconmend for me to watch if I wanted to look at the use of footsies?
[2/7/2012 4:25:51 PM] GBizzle: what is that?
[2/7/2012 4:26:31 PM] Jaleel Turner: Footsies?
[2/7/2012 4:26:38 PM] GBizzle: yea
[2/7/2012 4:26:41 PM] Jaleel Turner: Basically, a different form of spacing
[2/7/2012 4:26:57 PM] Jaleel Turner: Eh, you've seen Delta-Cod's thread on Burst Spacing?
[2/7/2012 4:27:22 PM] GBizzle: i didn't read deeply into it
[2/7/2012 4:27:26 PM] GBizzle: I know what he means though
[2/7/2012 4:27:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah
[2/7/2012 4:27:37 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's the same thing
[2/7/2012 4:27:54 PM] GBizzle: wait a sec
[2/7/2012 4:32:13 PM] GBizzle: found it
[2/7/2012 4:32:22 PM] GBizzle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R5zjdmGTLA
[2/7/2012 4:32:27 PM] GBizzle: watch this
[2/7/2012 4:32:35 PM] GBizzle: and take a close look at his laser game
[2/7/2012 4:32:39 PM] GBizzle: especially from 2:40 onwards
[2/7/2012 4:32:39 PM] Jaleel Turner: aight
[2/7/2012 4:33:10 PM] Jaleel Turner: oh I've seen this
[2/7/2012 4:33:17 PM] Jaleel Turner: I watch the whole upload of this tourney
[2/7/2012 4:33:26 PM] GBizzle: you haven't seen it closely enough
[2/7/2012 4:33:32 PM] Jaleel Turner: here
[2/7/2012 4:33:39 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'll tell what he is doing then
[2/7/2012 4:33:44 PM] GBizzle: k
[2/7/2012 4:33:56 PM] Jaleel Turner: so you can see that I've started to get a grasp on this concept
[2/7/2012 4:34:04 PM] Jaleel Turner: (learned about 2 days ago)
[2/7/2012 4:34:15 PM] GBizzle: heh
[2/7/2012 4:34:25 PM] GBizzle: now i'm intrigued
[2/7/2012 4:34:31 PM] GBizzle: I wonder if we realized the same thing
[2/7/2012 4:34:35 PM] Jaleel Turner: so
[2/7/2012 4:34:38 PM] Jaleel Turner: he is lasering
[2/7/2012 4:34:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: not to camp
[2/7/2012 4:34:46 PM] Jaleel Turner: but waiting for an reaction
[2/7/2012 4:34:55 PM] Jaleel Turner: and he is playing outside MK's max range
[2/7/2012 4:35:04 PM] Jaleel Turner: i.e. Dash Attack/Dash Grab
[2/7/2012 4:35:06 PM] GBizzle: yes, that's part of it
[2/7/2012 4:35:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: and actually
[2/7/2012 4:35:26 PM] Jaleel Turner: at this point about 3:4-
[2/7/2012 4:35:28 PM] GBizzle: but take a closer look at ALL follow-ups to lasers
[2/7/2012 4:35:30 PM] Jaleel Turner: 3:40*
[2/7/2012 4:35:34 PM] GBizzle: from 2:40 onwards
[2/7/2012 4:35:43 PM] Jaleel Turner: he is outside of MK's tornado too
[2/7/2012 4:35:46 PM] Jaleel Turner: and okay
[2/7/2012 4:37:15 PM] Jaleel Turner: okay I'm done yet but I'm going to make a say on what I've seen so far (I'll continue though, it's hypothesis). So he is basically staying grounded for the follow up, only dashing in
[2/7/2012 4:37:30 PM] GBizzle: it's ... a lot more fundamental
[2/7/2012 4:37:49 PM] GBizzle: it's about what happens at the very core of the game
[2/7/2012 4:37:52 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah he did it again
[2/7/2012 4:37:54 PM] Jaleel Turner: ?
[2/7/2012 4:37:58 PM] GBizzle: watch the match again
[2/7/2012 4:38:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: I keep seeing him dash sheild grab
[2/7/2012 4:38:28 PM] Jaleel Turner: well not grab
[2/7/2012 4:38:32 PM] Jaleel Turner: but dash sheild
[2/7/2012 4:38:34 PM] GBizzle: from 2:40 onwards his follow up to laser don't get punished any more
[2/7/2012 4:38:44 PM] GBizzle: for the rest of the game
[2/7/2012 4:38:54 PM] GBizzle: whatever option he chooses straight after the laser
[2/7/2012 4:39:03 PM] GBizzle: he always ends up not getting punished
[2/7/2012 4:39:04 PM] GBizzle: that's pretty insane
[2/7/2012 4:39:12 PM] Jaleel Turner: Wait hold on
[2/7/2012 4:39:31 PM] Jaleel Turner: I saw him get punished though
[2/7/2012 4:39:43 PM] GBizzle: maybe one time
[2/7/2012 4:40:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: I see what you mean though
[2/7/2012 4:40:43 PM] Jaleel Turner: his mix-ups
[2/7/2012 4:40:47 PM] Jaleel Turner: are
[2/7/2012 4:40:52 PM] Jaleel Turner: well actually
[2/7/2012 4:40:56 PM] Jaleel Turner: psuedo-perfect
[2/7/2012 4:41:11 PM] Jaleel Turner: first his wasn't getting punished for dash sheilding
[2/7/2012 4:41:12 PM] Jaleel Turner: so
[2/7/2012 4:41:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: El switched to spotdodge to avoid what he taught was an incoming grab
[2/7/2012 4:41:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: but instead Yui dash attacked
[2/7/2012 4:42:09 PM] GBizzle: after 2:58 none of his direct follow ups to laser get punished
[2/7/2012 4:42:18 PM] Jaleel Turner: Yeah it's like
[2/7/2012 4:42:23 PM] GBizzle: and after that he stopped taking damage almost completely
[2/7/2012 4:42:27 PM] Jaleel Turner: he is inside El's mind completely
[2/7/2012 4:42:43 PM] GBizzle: from like 2:40 onward he wouldn't drop a stock anymore
[2/7/2012 4:42:51 PM] GBizzle: it's not even so much about being in his mind
[2/7/2012 4:43:05 PM] GBizzle: than about understanding when you can follow up with what
[2/7/2012 4:43:18 PM] GBizzle: Fox lasers have no stun
[2/7/2012 4:43:50 PM] GBizzle: yet he gets an upsmash or two, two or three grabs and at least three dash attacks in
[2/7/2012 4:44:24 PM] GBizzle: im pretty sure that has something to do with the "footsies" you're talking about
[2/7/2012 4:44:41 PM] GBizzle: because he doesn't just poop on MKs "burst spacing" range
[2/7/2012 4:45:04 PM] GBizzle: but he also enhances Fox "burst range"
[2/7/2012 4:45:10 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah he does!
[2/7/2012 4:45:22 PM] GBizzle: it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense
[2/7/2012 4:45:36 PM] GBizzle: but Fox' laser looks like a great spacing / zoning tool
[2/7/2012 4:45:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: probably because it doesn't do stun
[2/7/2012 4:45:57 PM] Jaleel Turner: physically
[2/7/2012 4:46:05 PM] GBizzle: im not sure about that
[2/7/2012 4:46:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: I think it's a psych thing
[2/7/2012 4:46:12 PM] GBizzle: possibly
[2/7/2012 4:46:17 PM] GBizzle: but really
[2/7/2012 4:46:27 PM] GBizzle: El has so much experience in this match-up
[2/7/2012 4:46:32 PM] Jaleel Turner: true
[2/7/2012 4:46:42 PM] GBizzle: I don't think he's unaware of MKs options against it
[2/7/2012 4:47:05 PM] GBizzle: [incidentally, this is one of the vey few sets vs MK that Yui ends up losing]
[2/7/2012 4:47:21 PM] GBizzle: [winning record vs El, Rain and Otori]
[2/7/2012 4:47:59 PM] Jaleel Turner: wow
[2/7/2012 4:48:15 PM] Jaleel Turner: Hmmm, I really want to know what's behind that then
[2/7/2012 4:48:27 PM] Jaleel Turner: everything works for a reason
[2/7/2012 4:48:36 PM] Jaleel Turner: once I can learn that reason, I could apply it
[2/7/2012 4:49:01 PM] Jaleel Turner: same with burst spacing/footsies, that's why I'm trying my best to understand it now
[2/7/2012 4:49:30 PM] Jaleel Turner: so as I apply it, I don't apply it the wrong way. In other words make my game worse because I added something I don't grasp
[2/7/2012 4:49:31 PM] GBizzle: SLS is also quite amazing at it [with Falco]
[2/7/2012 4:49:43 PM] GBizzle: even against MK
[2/7/2012 4:49:54 PM] GBizzle: his baits and approaches hardly ever get punished
[2/7/2012 4:50:05 PM] GBizzle: that's quite remarkable considering Falco's character design
[2/7/2012 4:50:20 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm listening
[2/7/2012 4:50:35 PM] Jaleel Turner: I trying to take this in right now
[2/7/2012 4:50:40 PM] GBizzle: let's see
[2/7/2012 4:50:47 PM] GBizzle: there's his two sets vs Kakera
[2/7/2012 4:50:51 PM] GBizzle: both best of 3
[2/7/2012 4:50:56 PM] GBizzle: he wins all 4 of them
[2/7/2012 4:50:59 PM] GBizzle: 3 of them are two stocks
[2/7/2012 4:51:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: Link please?
[2/7/2012 4:51:11 PM] GBizzle: not sure which one to look at first though
[2/7/2012 4:51:18 PM] Jaleel Turner: oh, okay
[2/7/2012 4:51:46 PM] GBizzle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-w2ZwKTC60
[2/7/2012 4:52:30 PM] Jaleel Turner: okay, let's see
[2/7/2012 4:53:13 PM] Jaleel Turner: Okay
[2/7/2012 4:53:25 PM] Jaleel Turner: soo at first glance (what I'm getting right now)
[2/7/2012 4:53:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: so he is burst spacing obviously
[2/7/2012 4:53:44 PM] Jaleel Turner: but he is slowly giving away his stage control
[2/7/2012 4:54:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: when in actuality he is lurring Kakera into spacing punishing him
[2/7/2012 4:54:20 PM] Jaleel Turner: but when SLS lasers
[2/7/2012 4:54:37 PM] Jaleel Turner: Kakera is in Falco's range to punish
[2/7/2012 4:54:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: *continues the match*
[2/7/2012 4:55:05 PM] GBizzle: hmm maybe that's not the best match
[2/7/2012 4:56:12 PM] Jaleel Turner: OK
[2/7/2012 4:56:19 PM] Jaleel Turner: now it's really obvious i think
[2/7/2012 4:56:21 PM] Jaleel Turner: look
[2/7/2012 4:56:22 PM] Jaleel Turner: at
[2/7/2012 4:56:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: 1:16
[2/7/2012 4:56:41 PM] Jaleel Turner: to
[2/7/2012 4:57:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: 1:28
[2/7/2012 4:57:13 PM] Jaleel Turner: so Kakera is offstage
[2/7/2012 4:57:30 PM] Jaleel Turner: but SLS is keeping the range I noticed earlier the same
[2/7/2012 4:57:43 PM] Jaleel Turner: even when he SH'd towards him and retreated DJ'd away
[2/7/2012 4:57:53 PM] Jaleel Turner: he made sure landed right back into that zone
[2/7/2012 4:58:17 PM] Jaleel Turner: and when Kakera landed on stage, SLS moved slightly back to retain that zone
[2/7/2012 4:58:29 PM] GBizzle: let's see if I can find something better
[2/7/2012 4:58:38 PM] Jaleel Turner: aight
[2/7/2012 4:58:43 PM] Jaleel Turner: but what I'm saying
[2/7/2012 4:58:47 PM] Jaleel Turner: does it make sense?
[2/7/2012 4:59:01 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm asking cause I want to know if I'm getting this concept right
[2/7/2012 4:59:02 PM] Jaleel Turner: haha
[2/7/2012 4:59:12 PM] GBizzle: it somewhat does
[2/7/2012 4:59:44 PM] Jaleel Turner: where is it lacking?
[2/7/2012 5:00:02 PM] GBizzle: you understand the concept
[2/7/2012 5:00:18 PM] GBizzle: but you're perhaps unaware of the extent and the minor details of it
[2/7/2012 5:00:26 PM] GBizzle: *the extent to which it matters
[2/7/2012 5:00:31 PM] Jaleel Turner: and that's what I really want to know
[2/7/2012 5:00:59 PM] GBizzle: OK, here's what I think is the best vid for that:
[2/7/2012 5:01:03 PM] GBizzle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsEeSIRijGM
[2/7/2012 5:01:06 PM] Jaleel Turner: okay
[2/7/2012 5:02:09 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm kind of seeing the same stuff from the last vid
[2/7/2012 5:02:22 PM] GBizzle: it's more extreme here
[2/7/2012 5:03:18 PM] Jaleel Turner: yes it is a lot
[2/7/2012 5:03:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: SLS is holding that zone
[2/7/2012 5:03:31 PM] Jaleel Turner: and every time Kakera tries to close it
[2/7/2012 5:03:38 PM] GBizzle: right
[2/7/2012 5:03:42 PM] Jaleel Turner: it doesn't work out most of the time
[2/7/2012 5:04:07 PM] GBizzle: he just doesn't find a way to get
[2/7/2012 5:04:19 PM] GBizzle: one thing I'll point out in particular once I watched the match
[2/7/2012 5:04:52 PM] Jaleel Turner: aight what's that?
[2/7/2012 5:05:38 PM] GBizzle: around ~0:40
[2/7/2012 5:05:59 PM] GBizzle: you'll see that he doesn't laser as soon as he's "out" of the zone
[2/7/2012 5:06:32 PM] GBizzle: between 0:37 and 0:38 it is
[2/7/2012 5:06:37 PM] GBizzle: where he does an empty SH
[2/7/2012 5:06:42 PM] GBizzle: not going for the laser
[2/7/2012 5:06:50 PM] GBizzle: because kkr was withing the burst range
[2/7/2012 5:07:29 PM] GBizzle: it's extremely calculated
[2/7/2012 5:08:47 PM] Jaleel Turner: seemed like he waiting for an reaction
[2/7/2012 5:09:53 PM] Jaleel Turner: while baiting him because he was in a SH, seemingly preparing to laser
[2/7/2012 5:10:13 PM] GBizzle: na he just didn't laser because he would've gotten punished
[2/7/2012 5:10:22 PM] GBizzle: once again take notes on the laser follow-ups:
[2/7/2012 5:10:34 PM] GBizzle: hardy does he get punished by anything worse than a mere dtilt
[2/7/2012 5:10:44 PM] GBizzle: after whiffing laser -> grab
[2/7/2012 5:10:48 PM] GBizzle: very calculated risk
[2/7/2012 5:11:50 PM] Jaleel Turner: because of his spacing correct?
[2/7/2012 5:11:57 PM] GBizzle: right
[2/7/2012 5:12:05 PM] GBizzle: he just stays "in the zone" as you say it
[2/7/2012 5:12:38 PM] Jaleel Turner: Mhhmm exactly
[2/7/2012 5:13:51 PM] Jaleel Turner: so I got to start noticing more defined details like that?
[2/7/2012 5:13:58 PM] GBizzle: well
[2/7/2012 5:14:10 PM] GBizzle: the first thing I watch out when observing players
[2/7/2012 5:14:13 PM] GBizzle: is punishment
[2/7/2012 5:14:18 PM] GBizzle: what did they get punished for?
[2/7/2012 5:14:32 PM] GBizzle: and what did they get punished by?
[2/7/2012 5:15:22 PM] Jaleel Turner: okay, I'm listening
[2/7/2012 5:15:31 PM] GBizzle: really, looking at those matches again
[2/7/2012 5:15:42 PM] GBizzle: as long as SLS / Yui remained in a neutral position
[2/7/2012 5:15:56 PM] GBizzle: the punishing options the opponents had seemed rather pathetic
[2/7/2012 5:16:22 PM] GBizzle: they just control the space
[2/7/2012 5:17:13 PM] GBizzle: which lies exactly one step behing the opponent's powershield
[2/7/2012 5:17:39 PM] GBizzle: that's the burst range they cover
[2/7/2012 5:17:52 PM] GBizzle: a very interesting approach to match-up
[2/7/2012 5:18:02 PM] GBizzle: and probably more conclusive than a lot of what has been discussed so far
[2/7/2012 5:18:34 PM] GBizzle: .... Falco and Fox can cover that space vs MK really well
[2/7/2012 5:19:12 PM] Jaleel Turner: listening
[2/7/2012 5:19:16 PM] GBizzle: all their powerful options lie within that space and MKs options to get in are all somewhat suspectible [sp?] to one option or the other
[2/7/2012 5:19:30 PM] GBizzle: it still comes down to reading
[2/7/2012 5:20:01 PM] GBizzle: but those two being able to force MK to constantly have to deal with some sort of "powerplay" must be hard to deal with
[2/7/2012 5:20:20 PM] Jaleel Turner: I see
[2/7/2012 5:21:09 PM] GBizzle: breaking the burst spacing of the opponent ... might just be the very key to effective offensive play
[2/7/2012 5:21:26 PM] Jaleel Turner: Which I think so too! I just wasn't sure
[2/7/2012 5:21:35 PM] GBizzle: setting up a good burst spacing zone against the opponent ... might just be the very key to effective defensive play
[2/7/2012 5:22:07 PM] GBizzle: both - breaking and setting it up - are related to each other
[2/7/2012 5:22:15 PM] GBizzle: to some extent at least
[2/7/2012 5:22:28 PM] GBizzle: wait
[2/7/2012 5:22:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: listening
[2/7/2012 5:22:48 PM] GBizzle: no i'm pretty sure that's right
[2/7/2012 5:22:56 PM] GBizzle: although the terminology might be off
[2/7/2012 5:23:23 PM] GBizzle: there might be a better word for "offensive" and "defensive" play
[2/7/2012 5:23:34 PM] GBizzle: ... Sonic isn't a very "offensive" character
[2/7/2012 5:23:58 PM] GBizzle: even though his play is all about breaking the "burst zone" as I will call it from now on
[2/7/2012 5:24:37 PM] GBizzle: no, I'm pretty sure I'm right
[2/7/2012 5:24:42 PM] GBizzle: XD
[2/7/2012 5:25:25 PM] GBizzle: yeah, I stick to what I said earlier about "offense" and "defense"
[2/7/2012 5:25:29 PM] GBizzle: I like that concept^^
[2/7/2012 5:26:20 PM] Jaleel Turner: I think it sounds pretty solid too
[2/7/2012 5:26:32 PM] GBizzle: ... you should talk to TKD about it
[2/7/2012 5:26:35 PM] GBizzle: if you have contact with him
[2/7/2012 5:26:45 PM] GBizzle: I'm sure he's very interested in that kind of stuff
[2/7/2012 5:26:45 PM] Jaleel Turner: Trying my best try to connect it to Fox
[2/7/2012 5:26:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah he is
[2/7/2012 5:26:54 PM] Jaleel Turner: next he gets AIM
[2/7/2012 5:26:58 PM] GBizzle: Yui gives you a good example how to do it
[2/7/2012 5:27:04 PM] Jaleel Turner: (probably in two months)
[2/7/2012 5:27:10 PM] GBizzle: Fox seems good at ... both
[2/7/2012 5:27:15 PM] GBizzle: setting it up and breaking it
[2/7/2012 5:28:05 PM] GBizzle: maybe that's why "conventional" characters without special gimmicks
[2/7/2012 5:28:16 PM] GBizzle: seem to be unable to go beyond even with him
[2/7/2012 5:28:24 PM] GBizzle: same as Falco who is also very good at both
[2/7/2012 5:29:21 PM] GBizzle: hmmm, and come to think of it
[2/7/2012 5:29:34 PM] GBizzle: characters that are really strong at setting up a "burst zone"
[2/7/2012 5:30:02 PM] GBizzle: are the ones I believe to either go even with MK or being potentially able to go even with him
[2/7/2012 5:31:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm still here
[2/7/2012 5:31:35 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm not sure if you want me to throw back my thoughts or so
[2/7/2012 5:31:45 PM] GBizzle: of course
[2/7/2012 5:31:53 PM] GBizzle: opposition is the most interesting thing in life
[2/7/2012 5:32:00 PM] GBizzle: everything else isn't a challenge
[2/7/2012 5:32:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: Well honestly
[2/7/2012 5:32:45 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's where I was going with my train of thought for burst zoning
[2/7/2012 5:33:00 PM] GBizzle: about what exactly?
[2/7/2012 5:33:09 PM] Jaleel Turner: the offensive and defensive
[2/7/2012 5:33:23 PM] GBizzle: ok
[2/7/2012 5:33:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: if you got a character that has solid options
[2/7/2012 5:33:43 PM] Jaleel Turner: not gimmicks
[2/7/2012 5:33:50 PM] Jaleel Turner: this concept will always work
[2/7/2012 5:34:02 PM] Jaleel Turner: because it's not something that is an extension of a gimmick
[2/7/2012 5:34:03 PM] GBizzle: hmmm
[2/7/2012 5:34:08 PM] Jaleel Turner: once a gimmick is learned
[2/7/2012 5:34:22 PM] Jaleel Turner: it's either useless or greatly diminished
[2/7/2012 5:34:45 PM] GBizzle: diminished being equal to "situational"
[2/7/2012 5:34:56 PM] Jaleel Turner: yep
[2/7/2012 5:36:46 PM] Jaleel Turner: so
[2/7/2012 5:36:56 PM] Jaleel Turner: characters like
[2/7/2012 5:37:09 PM] Jaleel Turner: let's ZSS or Lucario might benefit as much from this
[2/7/2012 5:37:16 PM] Jaleel Turner: as the previously mentioned Falco and Fox
[2/7/2012 5:37:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: I can see Lucario's defense being up but his offensive and I only see it as an add-on gimmick for ZSS
[2/7/2012 5:38:11 PM] GBizzle: hmmm
[2/7/2012 5:38:48 PM] GBizzle: I'm not sure if that's really true
[2/7/2012 5:38:53 PM] GBizzle: I'll think about it a little
[2/7/2012 5:39:19 PM] GBizzle: but you're probably right about Lucario
[2/7/2012 5:39:32 PM] Jaleel Turner: I could possibly be wrong I don't a lot about them besides the MU
[2/7/2012 5:40:27 PM] GBizzle: Lucarios burst zone ... it doesn't seem like its anything special
[2/7/2012 5:40:29 PM] GBizzle: in terms of space
[2/7/2012 5:40:36 PM] GBizzle: or in terms of powerful options within it
[2/7/2012 5:40:41 PM] GBizzle: it seems very average overall
[2/7/2012 5:40:47 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's what I think
[2/7/2012 5:41:18 PM] GBizzle: his ability to break an opponent's burst zone
[2/7/2012 5:41:27 PM] GBizzle: seems somewhat limited as well
[2/7/2012 5:41:31 PM] GBizzle: I'll give you that
[2/7/2012 5:42:20 PM] GBizzle: ZSS seems to be better at both overall
[2/7/2012 5:43:02 PM] GBizzle: I guess there are solid characers ... whose burst zone she can break through
[2/7/2012 5:44:05 PM] GBizzle: better than Lucario can
[2/7/2012 5:46:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: mus coming into play
[2/7/2012 5:48:19 PM] GBizzle: this allows for a somewhat fresh approach to characters
[2/7/2012 5:48:25 PM] GBizzle: and reevaluate some of them
[2/7/2012 5:48:49 PM] GBizzle: based on their ability to set-up or break the burst zone
[2/7/2012 5:49:32 PM] Jaleel Turner: Oh really?
[2/7/2012 5:49:47 PM] GBizzle: yeah, why not? <_<
[2/7/2012 5:50:49 PM] GBizzle: ... let's see
[2/7/2012 5:51:29 PM] GBizzle: as long as your own burst zone ... is as strong as your opponents ability to break it
[2/7/2012 5:51:40 PM] GBizzle: the match-up is [potentially] not in the opponent's favor
[2/7/2012 5:52:14 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'm just trying to get you to speak more haha
[2/7/2012 5:52:19 PM] GBizzle: lol
[2/7/2012 5:52:26 PM] GBizzle: It's really hypothetical
[2/7/2012 5:52:28 PM] Jaleel Turner: worked
[2/7/2012 5:52:35 PM] GBizzle: I haven't gone really deeply into it just yet
[2/7/2012 5:52:56 PM] GBizzle: but looking at characters ... I can see a lot of ends meet
[2/7/2012 5:53:12 PM] GBizzle: let's look at MK
[2/7/2012 5:53:27 PM] Jaleel Turner: okay
[2/7/2012 5:53:27 PM] GBizzle: his ability to break the opponent's burst zone ... is outstanding
[2/7/2012 5:54:01 PM] GBizzle: ... the burst zones of ... Fox, Falco, Olimar can stand against it
[2/7/2012 5:54:11 PM] GBizzle: potentially that of Snake if he plays on point
[2/7/2012 5:55:21 PM] GBizzle: Pikachu, Wolf and Diddy aren't quite there
[2/7/2012 5:55:25 PM] GBizzle: but somewat close to him
[2/7/2012 5:55:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: because mobility and other factors right?
[2/7/2012 5:55:52 PM] GBizzle: those are factors that are part of the overall entity we labeled as burst zone
[2/7/2012 5:56:13 PM] GBizzle: is it a big coincidence that these 7 characters are pretty much agreed to be MKs most difficult match-ups?
[2/7/2012 5:56:54 PM] Jaleel Turner: dont think so
[2/7/2012 5:56:56 PM] GBizzle: marth might be in that mix as well but I'd base that more on gimmicks tbh
[2/7/2012 5:57:25 PM] Jaleel Turner: I'd agree
[2/7/2012 5:58:00 PM] GBizzle: ICs is goes into a different extreme
[2/7/2012 5:58:53 PM] GBizzle: it's probably the character that lies away the furthest from this concept
[2/7/2012 5:58:56 PM] GBizzle: for obvious reasons
[2/7/2012 5:59:29 PM] GBizzle: it seems neither being able to set up ... nor breaking a zone has an actual impact of the match-up
[2/7/2012 5:59:34 PM] GBizzle: or a lot less than any other
[2/7/2012 6:00:56 PM] GBizzle: im not sure how it applies here
[2/7/2012 6:01:02 PM] Jaleel Turner: 2 characters are akward
[2/7/2012 6:01:20 PM] GBizzle: but it's probably necessary to be able to break a zoning game REALLY well to beat them
[2/7/2012 6:01:34 PM] GBizzle: but atm I can't even tell who does beat them at all
[2/7/2012 6:01:55 PM] GBizzle: there seems to be no logical correlation between the hierarchy of how good characters are
[2/7/2012 6:02:04 PM] GBizzle: and how difficult a match-up is
[2/7/2012 6:02:10 PM] Jaleel Turner: Yeah
[2/7/2012 6:02:22 PM] GBizzle: usually that's not the case
[2/7/2012 6:02:31 PM] GBizzle: the better a character the more likely he is to be a tough match-up
[2/7/2012 6:02:48 PM] GBizzle: only ICs seem to be ... abnormal within that pattern
[2/7/2012 6:03:34 PM] GBizzle: they have a harder time with Peach than with ... like Diddy Kong
[2/7/2012 6:03:44 PM] GBizzle: at least atm I'd say so
[2/7/2012 6:04:01 PM] Jaleel Turner: Character attributes?
[2/7/2012 6:04:48 PM] GBizzle: i think their ability to 0 death any character ... is simply a more effective way to approach a match-up
[2/7/2012 6:05:37 PM] GBizzle: than the "traditional" or "standard" concept we've just established to be the main basis for most characters
[2/7/2012 6:05:57 PM] GBizzle: there are different concepts to play it
[2/7/2012 6:06:04 PM] GBizzle: but ICs are the only ones that actually benefit from it
[2/7/2012 6:06:19 PM] Jaleel Turner: I think this brings me to another tagent
[2/7/2012 6:06:46 PM] Jaleel Turner: while America has been focusing on who camp the best and make solid reads every now and then
[2/7/2012 6:07:03 PM] Jaleel Turner: while Japan has been focused on burst spacing
[2/7/2012 6:07:18 PM] GBizzle: hmmm
[2/7/2012 6:07:20 PM] Jaleel Turner: adapting came with their single elim. ruleset
[2/7/2012 6:07:23 PM] GBizzle: the thing is
[2/7/2012 6:07:33 PM] GBizzle: focusing on burst spacing = camping the best
[2/7/2012 6:07:44 PM] GBizzle: america ... has never been that good at camping all in all
[2/7/2012 6:08:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: honestly I think most americans camp mindlessly
[2/7/2012 6:08:07 PM] GBizzle: somebody mentione that at the apex commentary
[2/7/2012 6:08:18 PM] GBizzle: I think it was when Nietono played ADHD
[2/7/2012 6:08:22 PM] GBizzle: that vid is on youtube
[2/7/2012 6:08:41 PM] GBizzle: and somebody mentions how japan just camps "differently"
[2/7/2012 6:08:47 PM] GBizzle: mindlessly is a good word to put it
[2/7/2012 6:08:58 PM] GBizzle: or it's just that japan focus on the "burst zone" more
[2/7/2012 6:09:22 PM] GBizzle: and that's when choosing options becomes more effective, maybe more consistent or logical
[2/7/2012 6:09:38 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah
[2/7/2012 6:09:47 PM] Jaleel Turner: as I've started implementing this into my game
[2/7/2012 6:10:03 PM] Jaleel Turner: reads, and baiting and a lot other fundementals became suddenly easier
[2/7/2012 6:10:28 PM] GBizzle: interestingly ... some japanese player - I believe suinoko - made a blog about that on aib
[2/7/2012 6:10:55 PM] Jaleel Turner: Wow, I wish would could find that
[2/7/2012 6:11:19 PM] GBizzle: it's nothing groundbreaking lol
[2/7/2012 6:11:26 PM] GBizzle: just some ... confirmation
[2/7/2012 6:11:29 PM] Jaleel Turner: I just want to read
[2/7/2012 6:11:30 PM] Jaleel Turner: XD
[2/7/2012 6:11:47 PM] GBizzle: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=131846
[2/7/2012 6:11:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: I learn the best by hybrid techniques
[2/7/2012 6:11:50 PM] GBizzle: that's it
[2/7/2012 6:11:50 PM] Jaleel Turner: oh
[2/7/2012 6:11:54 PM] Jaleel Turner: cool
[2/7/2012 6:11:57 PM] Jaleel Turner: and quick
[2/7/2012 6:11:59 PM] Jaleel Turner: LOL
[2/7/2012 6:12:04 PM] GBizzle: he calls it "measure" and "countermeasure"
[2/7/2012 6:12:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: I see
[2/7/2012 6:13:16 PM] GBizzle: i think that + delta cod's thread are really a good foundation for some advancements
[2/7/2012 6:13:45 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's why I'm taking such a big investiment into it
[2/7/2012 6:13:52 PM] Jaleel Turner: and I wish others would too actually
[2/7/2012 6:13:58 PM] Jaleel Turner: instead of viewing it
[2/7/2012 6:14:06 PM] Jaleel Turner: I mean look at the view to post ratio
[2/7/2012 6:14:19 PM] Jaleel Turner: 600+ views but only 2 pages worth of post
[2/7/2012 6:14:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's complete BS
[2/7/2012 6:14:33 PM] GBizzle: .... only 10x times as much views as posts
[2/7/2012 6:14:46 PM] GBizzle: other have 20x or more
[2/7/2012 6:15:41 PM] Jaleel Turner: Still
[2/7/2012 6:15:49 PM] Jaleel Turner: I just think it shouldn't die
[2/7/2012 6:15:53 PM] GBizzle: true
[2/7/2012 6:15:59 PM] Jaleel Turner: so I'm trying my hardest to keep it alive
[2/7/2012 6:16:07 PM] GBizzle: why is this wasted on a place as obscure and pathetic as the yoshi board anyway?
[2/7/2012 6:16:16 PM] Jaleel Turner: Idk
[2/7/2012 6:16:23 PM] Jaleel Turner: that's why I pushed for the move!
[2/7/2012 6:16:41 PM] Jaleel Turner: but now that I think about it, I don't want people like Doc King walking in
[2/7/2012 6:16:52 PM] GBizzle: lol
[2/7/2012 6:16:55 PM] Jaleel Turner: because the thread will drop
[2/7/2012 6:17:04 PM] GBizzle: can't people be topic banned? XD
[2/7/2012 6:17:17 PM] Jaleel Turner: because he will change it to D3 and you know the routine
[2/7/2012 6:17:18 PM] Jaleel Turner: and yeah
[2/7/2012 6:17:25 PM] Jaleel Turner: but his stupidity isn't bannable
[2/7/2012 6:17:28 PM] Jaleel Turner: :/
[2/7/2012 6:17:52 PM] GBizzle: people in that thread focus too much on dash attack XD
[2/7/2012 6:17:59 PM] Jaleel Turner: yeah
[2/7/2012 6:18:07 PM] Jaleel Turner: I did too day 1
[2/7/2012 6:18:10 PM] Jaleel Turner: not anymore
[2/7/2012 6:18:17 PM] GBizzle: most of them didn't understand the message XD
[2/7/2012 6:18:24 PM] GBizzle: or ... what lies beyond that message
[2/7/2012 6:18:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: yep, yep
[2/7/2012 6:18:40 PM] Jaleel Turner: I don't know if Delta even knows
[2/7/2012 6:18:51 PM] GBizzle: he might learn
[2/7/2012 6:18:58 PM] GBizzle: idk how intelligent a person he is
[2/7/2012 6:19:02 PM] Jaleel Turner: most likely
[2/7/2012 6:19:09 PM] Jaleel Turner: if the move happens
[2/7/2012 6:19:10 PM] GBizzle: be he has realized the first step
[2/7/2012 6:19:13 PM] Jaleel Turner: I want it to be good
[2/7/2012 6:19:20 PM] GBizzle: so ... the second should follow in due time
[2/7/2012 6:19:22 PM] Jaleel Turner: not Doc King ruined
[2/7/2012 6:19:33 PM] Jaleel Turner: I would hope so
[2/7/2012 6:22:50 PM] Jaleel Turner: continue though
[2/7/2012 6:23:04 PM] GBizzle: sorry I just read through the thread
[2/7/2012 6:23:20 PM] GBizzle: it's a scratch on the surfact I guess XD
[2/7/2012 6:23:31 PM] Jaleel Turner: mhm!
[2/7/2012 6:23:45 PM] GBizzle: if I were somebody ...
[2/7/2012 6:23:58 PM] GBizzle: and if I weren't a lazy SOB I might post something about this
[2/7/2012 6:24:10 PM] GBizzle: but I will try to improve upon this
[2/7/2012 6:24:14 PM] Jaleel Turner: you are somebody
[2/7/2012 6:24:14 PM] GBizzle: and gain first-hand experience
[2/7/2012 6:24:18 PM] GBizzle: not yet
[2/7/2012 6:24:19 PM] Jaleel Turner: but idk about the lazy part
[2/7/2012 6:24:29 PM] Jaleel Turner: oh you mean high level player?
[2/7/2012 6:24:40 PM] GBizzle: yeah
[2/7/2012 6:24:45 PM] GBizzle: give me a little more time
[2/7/2012 6:24:47 PM] GBizzle: I'll be there soon :3
[2/7/2012 6:24:57 PM] Jaleel Turner: Aight
[2/7/2012 6:25:06 PM] Jaleel Turner: and I'll reach mid-level
[2/7/2012 6:25:13 PM] Jaleel Turner: hopefully high-mid level
[2/7/2012 6:25:14 PM] Jaleel Turner: :D[/COLLAPSE]

Practicing

xIblisx said:
Soon, we should find ways general ways to practice it. Besides human opponents, wifi sucks for this in particular or at least bad connections do because of it's precision it entails. So I went to ask Orion for some help and the way he practices it since he doesn't have people 24/7to play, he sets a lvl 3 MK and walks in and out of the MK's burst range, and he uses this train his reaction time for when the MK commits to a tilt he punishes. Same with when the MK pushes into Orion's range he will punish it. That's the main focus during the whole time.

Overall it teaches you, your burst zone, basic concept of an opponents burst zone, and when you want to get a read, you'll naturally be ready to place yourself into your burst zone or will already be in your burst zone. Thus, making the read a lot easier.

Video Links:
Lucien's Melee Spacing Guide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL1F53F1DBA0A24E03
Kakera vs. Otori - Time given being an example of Burst Range/Option usage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbOAFyDcw0E&feature=related#t=4m40ss

Mr. game and watch · Feb 2, 2012

Thanks so much for the write up, delta.

I do suck at brawl. Horribly. This helps explain why.

My moves miss, the opponents moves hit, and I run back tithe ledge where I feel safe for 5 egg tosses. I pretty much give them the whole stage in hopes that I can chill on a ledge. I agree with this thread and everything in it.

Edit: "Get as close to the fire as you can, without getting burned."

Scarlet Jile · Feb 2, 2012

This is why I've been preaching the importance of not ignoring DR for so long now. It's one of the most important tools Yoshi has for fine-tuning his spacing (especially in a game that punishes dash dancing).

Other than hitboxes, good spacing is most valuable in making it harder to determine punishable distances for your opponent; with DR, that line becomes even more difficult to interpret. Although, on the same token, it's not something that can be purely intuited--a lot of it is just years and years of conditioning.

Delta-cod · Feb 2, 2012

Mr. game and watch said:
Edit: "Get as close to the fire as you can, without getting burned."

That quote fits well.

Scarlet Jile said:
This is why I've been preaching the importance of not ignoring DR for so long now. It's one of the most important tools Yoshi has for fine-tuning his spacing (especially in a game that punishes dash dancing).

Other than hitboxes, good spacing is most valuable in making it harder to determine punishable distances for your opponent; with DR, that line becomes even more difficult to interpret. Although, on the same token, it's not something that can be purely intuited--a lot of it is just years and years of conditioning.

I think that DR can only be applied well once the basic concept is understood. Kinda like a learning to walk before running thing. The spacing concept I described is universal, and it's like, a mid-level idea. Once you have that down pat, you can work in character specific tools to raise the level of play even higher. DR is one of those important tools.

For example, I was playing Jrugs this past Saturday at Collision, and I 3 stocked him twice the first two matches we played (friendlies). He asked me for advice, and I basically explained to him how I was spacing and stuff, and one of the comments he made was that he's never dealt with a Yoshi that stresses spacing like this so much (this really is a major part of my game). The two Yoshis he mentioned were Slush and Polt. He told me that Slush was really flashy and fast, but once you actually realized what he was doing (DR) it was easy to just punish him for it.

It shouldn't be easy to punish DR, because you should be using it to further stress the basic spacing that you can get by just walking or trotting back and forth. It has certain close quarters usage, but it really is an amazing spacing/baiting tool.

Sorry to use you as an example Slush, but it was relevant and it's all that came to mind. Much love. <3

And yeah, my beliefs on tech progression aside, I agree with your post, Jile.

Silent Beast · Feb 2, 2012

Delta-cod said:
I noticed that Karamity made amazing use of Egg Toss Slide in this regard. Basically, in moments where I would walk or dash to retreat because I felt pressured or to approach when the opponent backed away, Karamity would Egg Toss Slide, continuing the Egg Zoning Pressure and adjusting his spacing according to Burst Ranges. It’s a really awesome thing, and I’ve been trying to perfect my Egg Toss Slides (you really need to be on point with them) so I can do this as well.

So this was the so-called "Karamity Zone?"

Delta-cod · Feb 2, 2012

The Karamity Zone was the usage of really lightly tossed eggs at an angle that pretty much blocked both SH and grounded approaches. It ended up outcamping me, even. >_>''

The use of ETS allowed him to move his zone while continuing to throw eggs, instead of stopping to walk forward/backward and then resume.

PZ · Feb 2, 2012

I am still learning the dash timing for repetitive egg zoning or Karamity zone. Welp just another technical thing to learn. O hai guyz and this burst range is something I have a hard time learning with falcon but with yoshi it is indeed something we should have noticed sooner.

Z'zgashi · Feb 2, 2012

Vids ?

Jrugs · Feb 2, 2012

excluding the part where I got ***** XD lol. great post.
Delta mentioned this to me and it really helped me get better.

~Firefly~ · Feb 2, 2012

Loved this thread as soon as I saw the title. Excellent read, and your definition of Burst Range stood out to me as being very well phrased. Great job.

I've been trying to make better use of dash grabs since Apex, but I feel like I have a better idea of WHY they can be so effective after reading this. I also realize that I often mess up egg toss slides, inputting b-reverse egg tosses instead; it was a little technical error I often shrugged off, I'm going to make it more of a priority to fine tune that as well. I've got a tournament this weekend in the states, and a smashfest tomorrow to prepare; I'm looking forward to playing with this for a while to see what I can do with it. I'm going to make it my goal to become the first Yoshi in NA to incorporate spacing using Burst Range into his game in a way that makes proper use of DR as well.

For now though, I have to go work on my paper so I can actually go to the smashfest tomorrow... ;-;

Delta-cod · Feb 2, 2012

PZ said:
I am still learning the dash timing for repetitive egg zoning or Karamity zone. Welp just another technical thing to learn. O hai guyz and this burst range is something I have a hard time learning with falcon but with yoshi it is indeed something we should have noticed sooner.

Dash timing? Could you be clearer please?

And this is something I've known about for a while. I didn't initially understand the larger picture behind why Dash Grab Spacing worked, but I figured it out over time. I just finally decided to write up a post for it.

Z'zgashi said:
Vids ?

The video I linked in my post was a good start. I don't have a video specifically about this, and I'd have to go digging through some of my videos to find a good example of this...

I might consider uploading one of my matches against Marth that I have recently, since I believe that MU highly stresses this concept.

Jrugs said:
excluding the part where I got ***** XD lol. great post.
Delta mentioned this to me and it really helped me get better.

Dat name search.

Talking with you actually helped motivate me to write this up. It was nice to meet you.

Z'zgashi · Feb 2, 2012

I actually meant vids of the Karamity stuff, I get what you meant in the post. It was actually a great post, and it's made me realize that I need to Dash Grab a bit more lol.

Delta-cod · Feb 2, 2012

~Firefly~ said:
I've been trying to make better use of dash grabs since Apex, but I feel like I have a better idea of WHY they can be so effective after reading this.

Learning the reason behind WHY something works is a much more significant accomplishment than simply applying the technique. It's easy for me to tell you "Get to this spacing and Dash Grab, it'll work." And sure, you'll do it, and it'll work, but you won't know why, and you'll suffer against opponents that actually understand this concept.

As another example, I'll mention my friend Riz. He was the first one in recent history that had this explained to him, and one of the things brought up was that he could take games off of me or other people that understood this concept because he "knew" how to space. Like, he understood don't run into the **** and how to zone with Marth, which allowed him to compete to some degree. But once he had this explained to him, I noticed that he was fighting against my spacing MUCH better. It's not so easy to camp him anymore. XD

So yeah, mission accomplished. I'm glad you understand now. I want everyone here to know it because it's HUGE.

Z'zgashi said:
I actually meant vids of the Karamity stuff, I get what you meant in the post. It was actually a great post, and it's made me realize that I need to Dash Grab a bit more lol.

I don't have any videos recorded of me playing him or anything. Anybody notice any of this in any of his pools matches?

Sinister Slush · Feb 2, 2012

I noticed him using it a bit in his pools matches.

Deleted member · Feb 2, 2012

Awesome thread delta. Lots of good stuff for all levels of player in here. I used to say how epicly good dash grab was, but I didn't know why haha it just worked

Yikarur · Feb 3, 2012

awesome write-up, I did applicate stuff like that already in my game but still working on it, it's really effective and awesome.
this is one of the reasons I love Yoshi :D

-LzR- · Feb 3, 2012

This isn't too Yoshi specific, so I am glad I decided to check it out anyways. I have never heard anyone mention Burst Range before. That is an amazing thing to know, I have always thought just being away at good distance to do stuff is the best, but now I see why I suck against Marth, his burst range is amazing.
Amazing read thanks.

hadesblade · Feb 3, 2012

Good write up, I wish you made this wayyy back when you first started talking about dash grab spacing because I started implimenting it and it worked really well and then I played a marth that camped right ouside the spacing and baited me really well and I'm like wow I really don't know what to do. He stayed in that range where a dash grab could work, but he is likely to move back just enough to not get hit by the dash grab, but also in a spot where he could punish, or move in on an egg toss.

This is something I have been implementing against olimar a lot too (though I definitely didn't think about it as in depth. I'm just like stay where he can't hit, then dash grab him LOL). Olimars counter to our dash grab is usually fsmash if he has time to see us running. Sitting right out of his burst range (fsmash/grab range) makes it a lot easier to get that first hit in to start the juggle.

Delta-cod · Feb 3, 2012

Sinister Slush said:
I noticed him using it a bit in his pools matches.

Okay. I'll look through them for examples later (unless someone wants to do it for me.

)

burntsocks said:
Awesome thread delta. Lots of good stuff for all levels of player in here. I used to say how epicly good dash grab was, but I didn't know why haha it just worked

Thanks. I wanted to make sure everyone knew why dash grab worked because knowing why things work is so much better than just knowing they work. Glad it helped.

Yikarur said:
awesome write-up, I did applicate stuff like that already in my game but still working on it, it's really effective and awesome.
this is one of the reasons I love Yoshi :D

Yessssssss. Yoshi stresses this really well.

-LzR- said:
This isn't too Yoshi specific, so I am glad I decided to check it out anyways. I have never heard anyone mention Burst Range before. That is an amazing thing to know, I have always thought just being away at good distance to do stuff is the best, but now I see why I suck against Marth, his burst range is amazing.
Amazing read thanks.

I know it's not Yoshi specific, I just gave most of my examples in terms of Yoshi since I wrote this up for the Yoshi boards. Feel free to share it around.

hadesblade said:
Good write up, I wish you made this wayyy back when you first started talking about dash grab spacing because I started implimenting it and it worked really well and then I played a marth that camped right ouside the spacing and baited me really well and I'm like wow I really don't know what to do. He stayed in that range where a dash grab could work, but he is likely to move back just enough to not get hit by the dash grab, but also in a spot where he could punish, or move in on an egg toss.

This is something I have been implementing against olimar a lot too (though I definitely didn't think about it as in depth. I'm just like stay where he can't hit, then dash grab him LOL). Olimars counter to our dash grab is usually fsmash if he has time to see us running. Sitting right out of his burst range (fsmash/grab range) makes it a lot easier to get that first hit in to start the juggle.

Well, the problem is that back when I first started talking about dash grab spacing I didn't have as good an understanding of why it worked, so I never would have been able to write something up like this. I've been able to do a writeup like this for a while now, but recent events (like explaining it to different people individually) gave me some motivation to do this.

As for Olimar, his counter to our dash grab spacing is LITERALLY spamming Fsmash. There isn't enough of a window to get a dash grab in between Fsmashes, so we're sorta forced to commit to the air... This is one of my larger issues with the MU. Olimar ****s with our ideal spacing options pretty well.

Sharky · Feb 3, 2012

~firefly~ said:
i'm going to make it my goal to become the first yoshi in na to incorporate spacing using burst range into his game in a way that makes proper use of dr as well.

NOT IF I DO IT FIRST!!!

caps

Scatz · Feb 4, 2012

Good stuff Delta.

Sarix · Feb 4, 2012

Great thread, definitely universal to all the characters in the game, especially for characters where spacing is the most crucial. My only question is what exactly is a Burst Option? I read the thread over a few times and I'm assuming it's a response to Burst Range but I'd just like to be corrected so I don't have the wrong idea.

Z'zgashi · Feb 4, 2012

Your burst options would be moves that come out faster than they can react too.

Mr. game and watch · Feb 4, 2012

Wouldn't DA also be a Burst option for us?

Can someone please post a vid of some nice dash grab action, because I've been trying all week. I can only land pivot grabs. I land those all day though.

Z'zgashi · Feb 4, 2012

^ Yes it would.

PZ · Feb 4, 2012

Delta-cod said:
Dash timing? Could you be clearer please?

And this is something I've known about for a while. I didn't initially understand the larger picture behind why Dash Grab Spacing worked, but I figured it out over time. I just finally decided to write up a post for it.

The video I linked in my post was a good start. I don't have a video specifically about this, and I'd have to go digging through some of my videos to find a good example of this...

I might consider uploading one of my matches against Marth that I have recently, since I believe that MU highly stresses this concept.

Dat name search.

Talking with you actually helped motivate me to write this up. It was nice to meet you.

Where you slide while doing a egg toss I can't do that repeatedly.

Z'zgashi · Feb 4, 2012

Input a jump right before using Up B, but you have to be fast about it.

Mr. game and watch · Feb 4, 2012

A lot of people set jump to L to do it. I shield with L and R... So I can't.

Z'zgashi · Feb 4, 2012

Or you can just set Specials to X and slide your thumb from Y to X, thats what I do.

Sharky · Feb 4, 2012

I used to use L to jump, but I find it much easier to insta-throw with L rather than R, so I switched back to normal recently. I've found that I accidentally wavebounce a lot more using y to jump, however. =( Maybe it's just that I'm still adjusting, idk.

Scatz · Feb 4, 2012

PZ said:
Where you slide while doing a egg toss I can't do that repeatedly.

Input jump, up+B before Yoshi's foot get off the ground from his initial jump (6 frame window).

Delta-cod · Feb 4, 2012

Sarix said:
Great thread, definitely universal to all the characters in the game, especially for characters where spacing is the most crucial. My only question is what exactly is a Burst Option? I read the thread over a few times and I'm assuming it's a response to Burst Range but I'd just like to be corrected so I don't have the wrong idea.

I think I mentioned it in the OP, but I didn't really draw specific attention to defining it.

Anyways, a Burst Option would be the option that you can use within a Burst Range that an opponent cannot realistically react to. Every move technically has its own burst range. Jabs, for example, are very fast burst options. However, because they're, well, Jabs, their effective Burst Range is quite small, making them not useful for the idea of spacing that I'm describing.

The Burst Range/Burst Option concept I'm talking about in this thread is at neutral. It has a lot to do with not being right in your opponent's face, as I consider that CQC or "Boxing", which works a lot differently since it's a lot more fast paced and usually deals with more active hitboxes.

Ideally, your Burst Option is the attack with the most range that the opponent cannot realistically react to, thus giving you the most Burst Range. You want to combine speed + range.

Sharky · Feb 4, 2012

DR jab could make for a nice burst though, I'd think. It comes out with similar speed at that range.

Delta-cod · Feb 5, 2012

That's true. If it had similar range, it'd be a broken mixup with dash grab.

On an unrelated note, you do know there's text on that avatar, right?

PZ · Feb 5, 2012

Scatz said:
Input jump, up+B before Yoshi's foot get off the ground from his initial jump (6 frame window).

Hmm that's right. Thanks.

Sharky · Feb 5, 2012

Delta-cod said:
That's true. If it had similar range, it'd be a broken mixup with dash grab.

On an unrelated note, you do know there's text on that avatar, right?

why yes I do~~uche~~ =D

Scatz · Feb 5, 2012

Would you consider having a burst option while we're in the air?

Also, I believe our spacing was correct with most moves that don't have extreme cooldown. D. Grab (as you mentioned before) fits this bill properly since trying to space with it is futile when we're going to get punished for missing.

Yikarur · Feb 5, 2012

I wish we had something like dash grab in the air :/

Sinister Slush · Feb 5, 2012

DJC Egglay. Dashan towards them with the risk of being hit offstage with no DJ.

Yikarur · Feb 5, 2012

no you can't compare dash grab with egg lay, egg lay is slow and easily reacted to if the opponent knows Yoshis tools.

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