Training techskill w/o human opponents

As a falco main, I have most of the basics down. shl, shffl, wd, and teching are all under my belt. I watch a lot of youtube videos of tournaments, so I understand how to weave combos.

Right now I don't have human opponents to train with . I have heard that it is detrimental to train against CPUs, however right now I'm concerned about techskill only. (I figure I get all the techskill I need, then once I get my license to drive, I'll be able to drive myself to some tournys so I can learn the metagame.)

I am currently working on DI, shinegrabbing, shine oos, platforming, and shield pressuring. I can do each, some pretty well, but I have trouble with using them in the right situation and I wish to attain complete consistency. So my question is, how do I train these without human players? Are there drills people use to train these?

Can't really practice DI because it is situational based on what your opponent wants to do. Don't worry about that (though when watching videos you can look for when people combo DI or survival DI [inwards/outwards]). It's easy to get bored practicing stuff you mostly have down, but really push yourself to do the absolute basics as well as possible. From what I have observed, everyone thinks they are doing things "good enough" or even perfectly at the lower level, myself included. I used to think I had even the stuff as simple as jump cancelling my shines down. 10 years later, someone pointed out I was sitting in shine a few frames too long before jumping out. Within a week I had made HUGE improvements in my shield pressure by closing gaps that were normally left open by simple arrogance/obliviousness. Another important thing to keep in mind is HOW you practice. Running around a stage practicing tech is great for improving your overall movement flow, but the REAL improvement of individual techs comes from good ol' fashioned bulk training. When you go to the gym, you don't do a few reps of arms, a few reps of legs, some cardio, then go home for an hour and come back. You focus on a single region and push it with 100% of your energy on it. The same goes for Melee. When you want to work on nair-shine shield pressure, you just crank out as many nair shines as possible. Sit still and nair shine until you live and breath nair shines. Nair shine until your parents walk in the room asking what you want for dinner and you are still nair shining as you ask them "Do we have any leftover nair-shine?"

Tools at your disposal:

1. Name Entry Glitch + Fixed Camera Mode
- Video demonstration
- NEG makes it so you can run around stages by yourself in normal vs. modes as opposed to Training Mode; this is useful because you are then able to practice with the c-stick (which you should be doing at least some of the time for some stuff).
- FCM makes it so the camera doesn't zoom in too far because you are the only character on the screen. Makes more of a difference on some stages than others, but I struggle to line up precise things like ledge cancels where I need to see where I'm going if I'm in default Melee instead of FCM.

2. Increased Handicap + Reduced Damage Ratio
- Increase a CPU's handicap to 9
- Decrease yours to 1
- Set Damage Ratio (I think that's what it's called) to .5 (or w/e the lowest value is). These settings will prevent the CPU from flying away when you hit them, turning them into a sandbag glued to the ground.

3. Training Mode + Starman
- Training Mode's lack of c-stick sucks, but if you want to practice something like nair-shines where you don't need a c-stick, it's way easier than dealing with handicaps and damage ratio. Stand a few character widths from the CPU to spawn a Starman onto him, then proceed to practice your shield pressure. When the invincibility runs out, just spawn another one.

4. Moves Counter
- At the results screen, there is a list of how many moves were executed during the match. I recommend you start up a match on FD, and take the infamous Nairs Per Minute Challenge! I believe the last time I did it I got 110+ or something, so shoot for the stars! Also repeat with any other sort of challenge you like of course.


General Advice:

- (This is what 2 and 3 are for!) A common issue people who practice on their own have is adjusting to hitlag. Hitlag are just a few frames that get added every time you hit a player. Basically, you have to wait a tiny bit longer to input actions after attacks that make contact with an opponent's body or shield. Practicing nair-shines on CPUs is much different than practicing on thin air due to the timing of hitlag messing up FFing. If you input a FF during hitlag, you won't FF, meaning you will miss your L-cancel. When you are just ironing out muscle memory, practice on thin air, but when you have it down really well, test it out on lvl 1 CPUs and see how it compares.

- Don't practice vs. lvl 9s. They aren't any more human-like, and will only create bad habits. Lvl 1s are just dummies for testing stuff, and lvl 4s have the most random DI from what I can tell. Overall, don't worry too much about what the CPUs do. You mostly want to just be focused on their character physics as you hit them.

- Don't practice vs. the same characters. It's easy to just want to combo Fox on FD every time you turn your cube on, but it hurts you in the long run. Like with techniques, you should focus on one character at a time, but don't practice vs. the same one everyday. You will obviously want to focus on the top tiers because they are the most common, but I would also throw in low tier practice because it helps develop good combo improvisation which is A LOT more necessary vs. humans than with CPUs. I typically pick a character and practice for a few minutes on each stage (the 5 neutrals + PokeStadium).


Specific Techniques to Focus On:
- SHing (if Falco is too easy, try a character with a faster jump like Fox/Sheik/ICs/Samus/Pichu; check M2K's "SSBM Statistics List" for all of the jumping frame data)
- SHFFLing (both standing still and from dashes)
- SHFFLs + shines
- JCing Shine (like I said, I was doing this incorrectly for years, so make sure you can jump out of shine ASAP and it will really help your speed)
- JCing grabs quickly (Falco is in the jump-squat animation for 5 frames when you jump; you can grab/usmash after only 1)
- Shine grabs
- Usmash OoS (highly recommend up + c-stick)
- DDing (use different distances w/ Fox Trots mixed in; Fox Trots are when you dash and reset the stick to neutral so that you can repeatedly dash in the same direction; I like to DD and see how fast I can get across the stage by dashing as far right as possible, dashing left, then back to a long right dash, etc.)
- WDing (be able to control the distances; go for those max distance ones!)
- DDing+WDing
- Wavelanding (both jumping up and WLing onto plats, and jumping down and WLing onto the ground)
- Waveshining (learn to control which way you are facing by turning around or not turning around in the shine; make sure you are JCing your shine asap and WDing at all possible distances on command)
- Shine OoS
- SHL (be able to control laser height by adjusting when you press B, not when you FF; if you have a spare controller, snipe that crouching Kirby until you are pro at it)
- LHDL (be able to use any variation of heights; both high, both low, both medium, first high & second low, etc.)


More Advanced Ones:
- Ledge cancelling Phantasms and aerials
- Moonwalking
- Aerial shine+bair/dair
- Multishining
- Shining OoS (staying grounded by shining exactly on frame 6 after jumping [like in a multishine])
- Reverse SHL (can be tricky to do it out of shine, but it is essential for covering certain options during shield pressure)
- Reverse LHDL/run off DL
- Isai dropping (most useful with lasers)
- Ledge dash (wavelanding onto the stage with leftover ledge invincibility)
- Shield dropping (both out of a dash and out of a stand)
- PC drop (turning around as you walk to the ledge so that you fall onto it quickly)
- Ledge Shine/Shinehog (using JCed shine turn arounds so that you fall off during jump squat; use for either grabbing the ledge very quickly or even attacking)


I might have missed one, but I think all of the truly useful ones are there. If you're not sure what one of them is, try and search YouTube/Smashboards (I know there are tutorials for Isai and Shield dropping on YT). If you still don't know just ask in PP's thread since it has the highest traffic.

Bones that was ridiculously in-depth, you are my new favorite poster

Wow bones,

Thanks so much. I'm going to spend the next month combing over this information. For the past few months I've been playing and just getting generally better. I've maxed out and hit a wall with this. A few weeks ago I read a guide post somewhere on smashboards talking about how there isn't an excuse for messing up technique. I believe technique should not be an issue, ever. To continue your working out metaphore, I think it's time for hardcore gym work instead of going on walks here and there and expecting results.

You hit the nail on the head about ajusting to hitlag.

A couple Quick questions:

I do play against lv 9 foxes a lot, I know I shouldn't but I want a challange while I'm training, anyway somehow I shine the fox and they will be launched upward but many times with no hitstun, even at very low damage. Is this just some funky way the lv 9 DI's or is it possible to do this? Often times I'll waveshine them then go to follow w/ an attack and the cpu just nairs me as soon as I do. I'm sitting there like "wtf I just shined you, you should be stunned" It's starting to really mess with me.

And according to what I have seen of videos, If you shine a fast faller at 0% damage they should be launched upward and fall on the ground. All they can do when landing back on the ground is tech or mis tech (disregarding the di). Yet a lv 9 cpu can sometimes fit a nair in right before he lands. Again, is this just because its a cpu f.ing me up or should I be worrying at all?


Thanks for the feedback. I can't wait to improve.

Squirt said:

Wow bones,

Thanks so much. I'm going to spend the next month combing over this information. For the past few months I've been playing and just getting generally better. I've maxed out and hit a wall with this. A few weeks ago I read a guide post somewhere on smashboards talking about how there isn't an excuse for messing up technique. I believe technique should not be an issue, ever. To continue your working out metaphore, I think it's time for hardcore gym work instead of going on walks here and there and expecting results.

You hit the nail on the head about ajusting to hitlag.

A couple Quick questions:

I do play against lv 9 foxes a lot, I know I shouldn't but I want a challange while I'm training, anyway somehow I shine the fox and they will be launched upward but many times with no hitstun, even at very low damage. Is this just some funky way the lv 9 DI's or is it possible to do this? Often times I'll waveshine them then go to follow w/ an attack and the cpu just nairs me as soon as I do. I'm sitting there like "wtf I just shined you, you should be stunned" It's starting to really mess with me.

And according to what I have seen of videos, If you shine a fast faller at 0% damage they should be launched upward and fall on the ground. All they can do when landing back on the ground is tech or mis tech (disregarding the di). Yet a lv 9 cpu can sometimes fit a nair in right before he lands. Again, is this just because its a cpu f.ing me up or should I be worrying at all?


Thanks for the feedback. I can't wait to improve.

Click to expand...

If a CPU is hitting you with an aerial then it's not a combo, which means you should re-evaluate if you are performing it correctly or if what you're doing is not safe at all. If a move like Nair is hitting you out of it then any other player could have probably escaped it by jumping or shining or whatever. Bear in mind that a lot of times that the computer did not Nair you, it may have had the opportunity to do so, but did not. This is an element of the bad habits that can develop.

The goal behind training techskill against CPUs is not to defeat the CPU, but to monitor your own timing and consistency. That's why level 1s and 4s are suggested, because they interfere less with this. If you want a challenge, then you should seek out another person to play with. You probably already know this, but the AI in Melee will react to your play rather than anticipate it, so it's easy to find the weak point of a computer and abuse it. The core problem here is that the computer has specific (and unrealistic) weak points, while weak points in humans derive more from their play (and constantly change). A specific example could be that your grab game will suffer tremendously because a level 9 rarely gives opportunities to land an offensive grab. This is an element of the bad habits that can develop.

Don't trust videos of what you see too often. After watching videos of top level Falco players, I myself thought that I was impervious if I could pillar someone's shield at a correct timing, but after getting shieldgrabbed/stomped/shined out of shield so many times I realize that I have to be more conscious about my opponent's reactions to shield pressure. It may be that the people playing in the video (be it the Falco shining or the Fox getting shined) know something that you may be missing a piece of the puzzle to. Luckily, in this specific case, this is something you can find out yourself. Plug in 2 controllers, shine Fox with Falco, and press jump on the other controller to see if you can do anything (I'd check myself but I'm at school right now ). If he can't, then the Fox may be doing something different, such as SDIing the shine upwards to fly slightly higher than usual, CCing the shine to reduce the hitstun (he would fly lower though so I don't think that would help), or you're actually shining at a slightly higher percent than 0% and you're deceiving yourself lol.

Thatguy,

Thanks for the feedback. Up to this point I have used lv 9's jsut because they punish the best. Since I play by myself most times I feel like I can only learn from my mistakes if I get killed because of them. I'm starting to understand that playing CPU's in general is weakening me. I like the idea of playing lv 1's and 4's. I do know that they react to you, that's why a simple pivot or DD can mess them up.

I'll try your suggestions.

Thanks.

Squirt said:

Wow bones,

Thanks so much. I'm going to spend the next month combing over this information. For the past few months I've been playing and just getting generally better. I've maxed out and hit a wall with this. A few weeks ago I read a guide post somewhere on smashboards talking about how there isn't an excuse for messing up technique. I believe technique should not be an issue, ever. To continue your working out metaphore, I think it's time for hardcore gym work instead of going on walks here and there and expecting results.

You hit the nail on the head about ajusting to hitlag.

A couple Quick questions:

I do play against lv 9 foxes a lot, I know I shouldn't but I want a challange while I'm training, anyway somehow I shine the fox and they will be launched upward but many times with no hitstun, even at very low damage. Is this just some funky way the lv 9 DI's or is it possible to do this? Often times I'll waveshine them then go to follow w/ an attack and the cpu just nairs me as soon as I do. I'm sitting there like "wtf I just shined you, you should be stunned" It's starting to really mess with me.

And according to what I have seen of videos, If you shine a fast faller at 0% damage they should be launched upward and fall on the ground. All they can do when landing back on the ground is tech or mis tech (disregarding the di). Yet a lv 9 cpu can sometimes fit a nair in right before he lands. Again, is this just because its a cpu f.ing me up or should I be worrying at all?


Thanks for the feedback. I can't wait to improve.

Click to expand...

Squirt said:

Thatguy,

Thanks for the feedback. Up to this point I have used lv 9's jsut because they punish the best. Since I play by myself most times I feel like I can only learn from my mistakes if I get killed because of them. I'm starting to understand that playing CPU's in general is weakening me. I like the idea of playing lv 1's and 4's. I do know that they react to you, that's why a simple pivot or DD can mess them up.

I'll try your suggestions.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

The shine thing you are talking about where the opponent flies out straight up as opposed to tumbling is a result of staling. When you've used a move multiple times, it is said to have staled. This reduces the knockback and % done by the move. It was added in to discourage simply spamming the same move over and over. Easiest way to see this is to go into Training mode. Shine your opponent over and over and keep an eye on the damage they took and whether or not they went into tumble. This happens with all moves, so you can also test it with your bair or utilt or whatever. If your opponent is lying on the ground from a missed tech, even a shine that is barely staled at all will still make them float away.

I know what you mean when you say you want to play lvl 9s for a challenge, but it's really not worth it because of the bad habits you'll get, and it also distracts you from the REAL challenges you should be facing when training. None of the CPUs DI as well as humans, but you can challenge yourself to 0-death a lvl 1/4 and it will be much more applicable when you play humans. A good place to start is the low % combos which are guaranteed on a lot of characters. I would recommend working on comboing Falcon on FD, then move on to Fox and Falco. From these very strict combos, you can branch out into different variations for higher %s or different characters which can't be comboed the same.

You should really just be watching matches of top Falcos and trying to emulate their combos. So if you see someone combo a Marth on FD by shine, DJ dair, utilt, etc. focus on the details. How does he jump out of the shine? How does he delay the dair to ensure the Marth stays stunned? How does he use turning around to ensure his utilt hits? Every combo has a million little nuances you can pick up on, so if you can learn the gist of them and become comfortable with them when you are playing comps, the next chance you get to play a human you will begin seeing opportunities to apply these nuances much faster, and you will also see ways in which you can mix up nuances. For instance, if you learn to turn-around utilt for pillar combos, when you go to nair combo someone across the stage you will notice, "Hey, I could turn-around utilt to lead into ____!" The possibilities in Melee are almost endless, so familiarizing yourself with all the nuance and detail possible is the only way you can learn to properly emulate good players, and make innovations of your own.

I don't think there is any information I can provide that has not already been said. However, I practice my Falco tech skill EVERY DAY for at least an hour. Things I've learned when doing this:

First, switch up the timings each day when you practice (sometimes noon, night, etc.) This will help your body adjust to play at optimum level throughout most times of the day.

Second, while its great to become so experienced with your tech skill to the extent where you don't need to think to do it, when you play human players always change up the timings of your tech skill, otherwise your shield pressure among other things will become extremely predictable.

Third, it's not a horrible idea to just keep a controller handy in your car, just so you can do silent practice and keep your neurological receptors familiar with certain movements on the controller and to help your overall economy of motion.

Fourth, work on your reaction time. Believe it or not this can be improved! I take martial arts so I always keep my reaction levels at their physical peak. Like anything at a high level of play, congruence between mind and body are essential for success.

Fifth, keep your controller clean and always wash & dry your hands before playing, it really does make a difference.

Sixth, find three types of human players. One that's extremely worse than you so you can work on sandbagging and basic punish game, a rival who is equal in skill level to you to push you and always motivate you to get better, and someone better than you to help you overall become more aware of your bad habits.

Seventh, never keep playing in an angry or frustrated state, this will ground negative feelings when practicing or playing.

Eighth, if you can, play across multiple televisions, this will help your coherence and visual spatial skills when adapting to new environments.

Ninth, get a capture card and computer and record yourself playing human opponents to analyze your mistakes and habits.

Tenth, play and practice in different physical positions. For example, sitting, standing, laying down, from a side view angle, etc. Once again your body becoming used to playing across multiple physical states will keep you prepared to play at your optimum level for nearly any scenario.

Eleventh, replace your controller every 4-6 months. Use your judgment on this one. 4-6 months is how often I usually need to replace my controller.

Twelfth, I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but don't play too many games on the side, it will confuse your subconscious. For example, Street Fighter, Soul Caliber, Super Smash Brothers Brawl, etc.

Thirteenth, workout! This is a must, studies have proven that your cognitive and physical abilities peak much higher when your muscles and blood flow are working more efficiently. This also means you should eat correctly.

Fourteenth, this is about reaction time, pay attention, don't go on autopilot when playing. Watch Armada, it always looks like he's making amazing come backs, but in reality his adaption is superb because he doesn't play mindlessly and he watches the habits and mistakes of his opponents and calibrates accordingly.

I hope all this info helps, from a fellow Falco main who practices tech skill on his free time often lol. Good luck, hope we eventually get some sets together.

Squirt said:

I do play against lv 9 foxes a lot, I know I shouldn't but I want a challange while I'm training, anyway somehow I shine the fox and they will be launched upward but many times with no hitstun, even at very low damage. Is this just some funky way the lv 9 DI's or is it possible to do this? Often times I'll waveshine them then go to follow w/ an attack and the cpu just nairs me as soon as I do. I'm sitting there like "wtf I just shined you, you should be stunned" It's starting to really mess with me.

Click to expand...

Hey I just reread this and I think I misinterpreted what you said earlier. I believe this is caused because you used the shine while Fox was in the process of hitting the floor (during his flopping animation). When you shine someone at this time, they fly straight up as if they had jumped, rather than get stunned.

This would happen if, for example, you were practicing your pillaring on Fox, and used Dair -> Shine ~4 times, where the 4th Dair would cause him to hit the floor forcing a knockdown, and you shined him anyway, making him fly straight up with no hitstun. Perhaps this is what you were referring to?

You definitely shouldn't replace your controller every few months. It makes it extremely difficult to stay consistent when you are getting a new controller every time your previous one is mostly broken in. Not to mention it's way too expensive to buy a new controller that often.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Bones0 said:

You definitely shouldn't replace your controller every few months. It makes it extremely difficult to stay consistent when you are getting a new controller every time your previous one is mostly broken in. Not to mention it's way too expensive to buy a new controller that often.



It doesn't have anything to do with Fox lying on the ground. Read my last post.

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I think breaking in your controller is a great thing as well. That's why I included, "use your judgment." However, for me personally, my analog stick after about 6 months is no longer centered correctly, and my buttons start to sink into the controller too much and lose their "clickiness." I suppose the control element here is just how often you play and how hard you ride your controller.

Okay, I can understand if you keep getting controllers that drift. You just haven't found a good one yet. I definitely got lucky. I am still using the same controller from the original four I bought with my cube 10 years ago. I broke the rubber pad for my L button, but I easily replaced that, and the control stick still doesn't drift.

Unbelievable 10 years! I wish I got one of those controllers. The best one I had to date was a white one brand new off eBay that ended up lasting 1.5 years.