Falcon vs Ike

Things to note:

1. Disjointed jab with locking potential.
2. You can DI out of Ike's jab lock, but I wouldn't challenge his range to begin with.
3. Above 90%, play defensively. Ike can KO you around this percent.
4. Ike is easy to punish offstage, Respect his Aether but remember you can grab it at the apex of his rise.
5. Falcon dive > Aether
6. Auto cancelled dair is a reasonable approach
7. Like Falcon, Ike lacks projectiles. Camping and punishing is effective.
8. "To give you an idea of how easy to punish QD is, if a Captain Falcon power-shields it and reacts immediately, he can punish it with a Falcon Punch." - Ike boards
9. Overall high range on attacks. Watch out for approaching nair and fair.

Stage Counterpicks:
Lylat
Frigate Orpheon
Smashville

Stage Bans:
Pokemon Stadium 1

If you decide to play offensive against Ike don't stay in for a lot of follow ups unless you can land a grab or a jab. Typically you'll want to hit and run. Keeping him above you in the air and on platforms is ideal but he'll want to be doing this to you as well.

Frigate Orpheon I find one of the better counter picks, If you get Ike out far enough on the right side he'll have to recover high with quick-draw to get back onto the stage. It also has a changing platform we can abuse and keep Ike above us. The only thing I would warn one on this stage is the lowered platform that drops and can act as a wall infinite if Ike gets you there. Stay away during that duration and you will be fine.

Lylat is like Battlefield but has a greater chance of gimping Ike with the tilt of the stage.

Note how frigate goes in the 2nd transformation.

Ike has answers to how you DI his jab

Aight. I know he can **** your **** up when you di away but does he have one when you di behind him? I always get behind and grab, it's just kinda difficult because if I don't make it all the way back I get grabbed :/

-Nair/uair juggle him
-Flub or falcon dive his recovery(be prepared for an epic ike if he techs the stage spike of falcon dive)
-Fthrow is very effective in this mu
-Don't be afraid to jab<jab cancel but when you do do not stop cuz he will jab you(of course if he moves away from jab that is a good time to stop and end with dtilt/dash attack/up b/utilt for safety/down angled ftilt
-I wouldn't bair so much in this mu...it feels odd like there are actually better options...
-not sure about using dair but hey I see some use in it in this mu as long as you don't become predicatble with it
-BE PREPARED WHEN HIT HARD!

Also as a wififalcon I face more ikes than you ever will...EVERY ONE HAS A POCKET IKE ON WIFI LOL

I play good ikes though lol. dtilt might work on wifi but all it ever does is get me shield grabbed. don't dash attack Ike...yeah lol. When he moves back use up angled ftilt it's faster. I can see how you'd think bair to be unsafe, buts really not it has decent priority. I totally forgot to mention forward throw, early percents I seem to have good damage racking with forward throw > down throw > up air.

-Ike has a much better jab play than Falcon, if you get jabbed get out before he starts to cancel jab, he can do 10% or more by this.
-The best aproach way against Ike is Uair with good spacing, bair works too, nair is ok but it can be punished more easy.
-If you grab him, do the up one, with good juggling you can chain a Uair
-Care with Ike´s recovering (Up-B), there are a few frames where you can up b him but most times you will get hit, if he knows to tech get ready to get owned.
-If he is going to recover by side-b put your body in the way, if he hits you before getting the edge he will die, you can try to knee it.
-Care with his backair, its flashy and kills easy

-Practice Practice Practice, theorycraft is good but you need to play good Ikes to learn the match up

I like this, I'm gonna have to find some solid time to update summaries in the index.

Michigan doesn't have any Ikes, but I did play Red-X a lot on weefees back in the day.

I like the idea of using more uthrow. I'm going to have to start trying that.

Lionman said:

-Ike has a much better jab play than Falcon, if you get jabbed get out before he starts to cancel jab, he can do 10% or more by this.
-The best aproach way against Ike is Uair with good spacing, bair works too, nair is ok but it can be punished more easy.
-If you grab him, do the up one, with good juggling you can chain a Uair
-Care with Ike´s recovering (Up-B), there are a few frames where you can up b him but most times you will get hit, if he knows to tech get ready to get owned.
-If he is going to recover by side-b put your body in the way, if he hits you before getting the edge he will die, you can try to knee it.
-Care with his backair, its flashy and kills easy

-Practice Practice Practice, theorycraft is good but you need to play good Ikes to learn the match up

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1. Falcon uairs
2. ike airdodges
3. falcon falcon dives ike during his up b
4. ???
5. profit!

It's been said, but I think one of the most important things to do against an Ike is juggling and getting out of harm's way.
I also think that if you just jab Ike once, shorthop over him and hit him with a bair, it'll hit, since lots of Ike prefer spotdodging when you attack real close to them.

Maybe that was a bad percent to place. It's also stage dependent. You'd be surprised how many moves Ike can kill with. I've been killed with bair, back throw to dash attack, d-tilt....-.-, forward air, f-tilt. On platforms his smash options are even greater. That probably should have been like 90% realistically.

up throw seems interesting as well as the b-air after spot dodge.

>Ftilt being a good option for Ike

....It's a move that extends his hurtbox before his hitbox. Its usable, but you won't be seeing it much at all unless it from the ledge generally speaking.

Bthrow -> Dash Attack = true combo. Jab -> Grab = either true combo or one frame short of a true combo depending on what you do. Dash Attack also actually kills at a not bad percentage when fresh, so it's perfectly possibly to be killed by it. And as you already mentioned it puts Falcon in a horrible position: very easy to walk-off fair him at this point.

If you SDI the jab upwards, you're setting yourself to be combo'd into Utilt or possibly Combat Walked. Never do that. SDIing behind Ike just forces us to turnaround jab, which Jab 1 still true combos into and you're going to take more jab hits getting to that point. Don't do that. Best bet is to just SDI as far away as possible without going up, though we can still land several jabs on you while you do that.

Fair is a great spacer for Ike when used with retreating. Even with Falcon's speed I'm not sure he can beat a retreating Fair. If he can Ike will stick to Nair instead which I believe outranges your aerials anyways.

Jab Jab shield from Falcon isn't the smartest thing to do either. We can delay our Jab 1 -> Jab 2 quite a long time and catch you if you try to do much OoS. You're just hoping for a gamble that pays off instead of doing anything solid. It is a possible mixup, but you probably shouldn't use it more than once or twice.

Falcon should probably just stick to jabs + aerials for most of the match.

Lylat isn't a bad stage for Ike, and most Ikes like Smashville. Frigate I think most of them like as well.

I'm not sure if edge grabbing an ike is a good idea but one time when I was playing one on frigate I did it right when he was about to use his up-b and then I diagonally hold the control stick to the down right and actually got a knee of justice on him(down left works too but only if you're on the other side). And it worked on other ikes too, timing is the key however because ike has some vulnerable frames in his up-b (and it doesn't matter if you land a regular knee on him because at least it pushes him back a little and that's enough space to give him a hard time to get back on the stage)

Also keep in mind that ike's second and third jabs can lock you if they're canceled if you get locked just DI through Ike, or outside of the jab's range by moving backward and pulling up a shield before the jab is able to hit again. Watch out for his F-air and Nair pressuring game and don't roll behind him when he is using his Nair.

I like angled up ftilt and u-tilt. Dtilt is situational, jab game is a double edged sword but I agree with the aerials. di'ing straight away has also lead me into a f-tilt lol. Also I have never met and Ike that willing goes to lylat or frigate, it was my understanding that those are some of his worse stages vs falcon anyway. What stages would you say exploit his weaknesses?

teluoborg said:

Bthrow > DA true combo from 50 to like 90%. And dash attack is DIable upwards to avoid the "free Fair" position.
"not a bad percentage" = 140% in this matchup, Falcon is heavy.
Jab > grab isn't a true combo if you SDI, but it's realistic to say not everyone SDIs the first jab.

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It's a larger percent range than 50-90. I think the latest any character starts is like 35% and it wasn't Falcon. I'd have to dig up a video to be sure about the %s. Even with DIing upwards, you're most likely going to be in Fair position or right on the border of it, which limits your recovery options.

Again, the kill % varies on the stage and position. It's still feasible.

Frame wise, Jab to grab is a true combo under certain conditions. I'm fairly sure that for a character like Falcon you'd need Mr.Doom's SDI to get away if those conditions come up. However, Ike most likely is going to go for more jabs instead of grab because its not easy to see on our end always if its going to true combo or not.

SDI straight away opens up for a dash grab, that's why SDIing up and away is the best solution, the only thing Ike can do to follow up is jab3, which is the least dangerous thing to get hit by.

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SDIing up and away still keeps you in Utilt range, which Jab 1 can true combo into. You're just setting yourself up for the kill by doing that. SDIing away and/or up and away on the other hand also sets you up for turnaround Bair, which is also a true combo though tricky to pull off.

Nair very good for Ike in this matchup but it's slow, so Ike has to choose wisely when to use it or he'll get Uair'd/dash attacked.
Fair isn't good except for zoning and punishing, I mean once Falcon understands that he shouldn't be straight in front of Ike in the air it's not safe to throw it out (Falcon can dash attack/grab the landing lag).

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Nair isn't that slow. We're going to be using it low to the ground so there is barely landing lag, and we're only going to be moving forwards with it if we see an opening.

And Ikes always use Fair for zoning and punishing. That it main uses...so we'll be using Fair like always.

I didn't understand the bolded part very well, but I have no problem shieldgrabbing jab1 on reaction, and since Ike leans so much forward during jab1 it's easy to grab, even with Falcon's garbage range.
And yes, I believe that's it's the smartest thing to do since jab cancels can be interrupted most of the time and full jab combo is punishable as hell.
Yeah, Jab1>2 does only 4 % but it's clear that Falcon loses the jab game percent wise. So doing 4% and being safe is more interesting than doing 6-8% and risking to take 10 to 20% if we get counterjabbed.
Agreed, Utilt and Dtilt are fine too.

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Bolded part means exactly what I said. We can Jab 1, and wait longer than expected before we have to hit A if we want to use Jab 2. Its basically a mixup of our own basic jab combo, one that can catch those trying to be fancy OoS. Or just to screw with people in general.

Ike does lean forward when he jabs, but he also snaps back quickly. You can shield grab the jab, but it's not something that is going to be done reliably. If we're doing jab cancels, we're most likely going to be doing the true combo ones if the Jab 1 hits, or we're either going to stop or try to go for a grab mix up if it hits the shield.

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Lylat and Frigate aren't Ike worst stages, its just that we nearly always have better options so we don't go there often. I personally think that in almost every MU (Falcon included) that Smashville is our worst stage due to the lack of space but honestly basically every Ike main has their own selection of stages they like and dislike for various MUs. We have some that love RC for example and as far as I know I'm in the minority about SV. Ike isn't exactly Diddy or ICs where there are clear cut good and bad stages. FD is considered a weaker stage for Ike generally speaking, but in this MU he wouldn't really gain a disadvantage from fighting Falcon here.

I guess the safe bets for Falcon would be SV and FD? Beyond that probably just go for w/e stage you feel the most comfortable with for this MU.

Also with nair it has short range compared to his other aerials and while the hitbox protects him when he lands the landing lag coupled with the short range of the move will allow falcon to shield grab it.

Like I've always said, Ike is about not messing up the spacing. Ike's Nair is -9 on shield if he cancels with the landing perfectly, so the only thing OoS move that is faster than 9 frames is Falcon's grab and that doesn't work if Ike spaces his Nair well enough. I know that he can space Nair outside the shield grab range of almost every non-tether grab, so Ike's Nair doesn't really have short range in any way. It's safe and outranges almost every move Falcon has. Frame 15 may sound slow but considering the range it has it isn't really that "slow" IMO, just like Ike's Fair. Most Ikes mess the spacing too much which makes him Ganon punishable, however if the Ike has good spacing and only uses his safest moves like Fair, Nair, Bair and jab for spacing, that really isn't the case.
And as Falcon, also beware of Ike's jab 2 range, it has almost the same range as his Ftilt and the hurtbox he extends during the move last for a very short time and isn't extended until the hit frame, so it's great for interrupting Falcon's approach from the ground. It also has very little ending lag and can get comboed to jab 3 for 12% damage.
If you as Falcon are near the edge, beware of Ike's Fair and Nair as they're great for punishing ledge get ups or even for staying on the edge when the invincibility frames are gone.


I feel this matchup is like Ike against a very bad Wario or Sheik. Falcon baits stuff with his superior mobility while being outside Ike's range (though it's not as good for baiting) while Ike's moves completely outrange and outpriorise just about everything Falcon has. But Falcon isn't as good at pressuring as Wario or Sheik is and he has worse grab range than both of them (which means Ike doesn't have to space his Nair nearly has well and even Ike's mediocre grab range outranges Falcon's). And not to forget, Ike's moves hit a lot harder than Falcon's.

About CPs, I dunno but Ike loves plataforms because he can Quick Draw into them for good mobility and more options when recovering and more.

teluoborg said:

No it doesn't, if SDI away gets you out of Utilt, then up and away does too. The reason for that is that SDI in Brawl works in a square, where diagonal SDIs are the sum of vertical and horizontal ones.

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SDIing away doesn't get you out of Utilt range reliably. Ike mains use Jab 1 to Utilt all of the time.

No, it's easy to shieldgrab a Jab if you're expecting it. And it's easy to expect it because it's Ike's best option in this situation.
Now I won't say that CQC is straightforward and easy to put down on paper because of the number of mixups and how things change depending on the spacing. But Jab jab shield is a thing that Ike will struggle a lot against.

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If it was easy, it would happen often in every MU and Ike wouldn't be nearly as feared in CQC. It doesn't happen often. On paper its possible, in reality it's fairly uncommon unless the Ike goes on auto-pilot when jabbing and does the full combo. Even against characters like D3 who are going to be fishing for that grab and expecting the jab we don't struggle much against it.

Saying "its easy to shield grab against his jab game" is pulling an Inui. You don't want to do that considering how much of a fool he always sounded like.

Its not a blowout MU or anything like that, but it's not even either.

How many MUs do you interrupt jabs cancels with jabs? Can you reword this so it's a bit more clear? I don't have a clue as to what you're trying to say.

Second...no, shield grabbing is not the most common outcome. The most common outcome is taking jabs to the face. No clue where you got that idea...and then you say Falcon can't do that easy in the next section right after saying its the most common outcome...

....

waitaminute, are you talking about Falcon going Jab -> Jab -> Shieldgrab, or Ike going Jab -> Jab, and then Falcon shieldgrabbing? Because I've been seeing it as the later this whole time.

Nidtendofreak said:

How many MUs do you interrupt jabs cancels with jabs? Can you reword this so it's a bit more clear? I don't have a clue as to what you're trying to say.

Second...no, shield grabbing is not the most common outcome. The most common outcome is taking jabs to the face. No clue where you got that idea...and then you say Falcon can't do that easy in the next section right after saying its the most common outcome...

....

waitaminute, are you talking about Falcon going Jab -> Jab -> Shieldgrab, or Ike going Jab -> Jab, and then Falcon shieldgrabbing? Because I've been seeing it as the later this whole time.

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Ivysaur's jab cancel is pretty horrible...I like MK's n D3's better lol

Yaaaaaaaaaaa, and that would explain my answers. >_> <_<

SDI isn't fool proof against Ike. Ike has 3 frames to jab 1 after the first jab 1 so he can essentially mix up the timing of his jabs. Then come the mind games of predicting the SDI and jab later than normal. Ike's long jab hitstun lets him mix up the timings since he can mix up true combo timings as well as going the risky timing of jabbing past the 3 frame leeway which can be escaped if the person isn't SDIing but trying to escape via jump > AD or something.

Ike's jab has 6/7 frames of hitstun if you are trying to jump, while 13 if you aren't jumping, so SDIing means you aren't jumping, which means Ike can alter the timing even more.

Again this is mindgames, but this is basically Ike's answer to SDI.


Also, Niddo thinks SV is Ike's worst stage, I tend to disagree because SV has slanted ledges which are such a big thing for spacing aether.

While the slant benefits Ike, I've gotten to the point to where I either stay away from Ike while he's doing his aether games or grab him at the apex of his jump. On SV I don't have many problems grabbing him, but his ability to space it helps Ike out a lot more. Ike has a way more options from jab than us, which is honestly why I try to stay away from him as much as possible. Falcon dive is a neat option for his jabs, but not very practical in most cases. I'm still inclined either way to say his best option is to di behind Ike's jab, we just have to step up or sdi. I still like frigate, but I seem to take Ike's to SV most of the time anyway.

Ussi said:

SDI isn't fool proof against Ike. Ike has 3 frames to jab 1 after the first jab 1 so he can essentially mix up the timing of his jabs. Then come the mind games of predicting the SDI and jab later than normal. Ike's long jab hitstun lets him mix up the timings since he can mix up true combo timings as well as going the risky timing of jabbing past the 3 frame leeway which can be escaped if the person isn't SDIing but trying to escape via jump > AD or something.

Ike's jab has 6/7 frames of hitstun if you are trying to jump, while 13 if you aren't jumping, so SDIing means you aren't jumping, which means Ike can alter the timing even more.

Again this is mindgames, but this is basically Ike's answer to SDI.


Also, Niddo thinks SV is Ike's worst stage, I tend to disagree because SV has slanted ledges which are such a big thing for spacing aether.

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^What he said for SDI.

And slants don't help when the main stage is too freaking small to space constantly on, and you can't rely on the platform being there as a way out if needed.

Stage control better.

Also, always DI up jab regardless DIing away or behind Ike you don't want to DI horizontally only against Ike's jab... Its really dumb where you go after jab 3 otherwise.

Though DIing up and behind puts you in prime bair position and jab > turn around bair works on people as it is..