Mu Discussion: MetaKnight

According to the MU chart, we have a -1 in this MU.
If you disagree in any way, post.
If you agree at all, post why.

Discuss the MK MU. I will try to stay out of MU discussions and let the other players talk.

Perhaps this is just me being inexperienced in the MU, but I really feel like this is our hardest MU and it might be -2.
MK's ground game is very good, by mixing up his followups out of ftilt1, ftilt2 and dtilt, I feel like he can really pressure us hard and eventually he gets something like a grab/dsmash.

I disagree, i think this is a -1.
I may have fought only subpar MK's, and Seibrik, but i think that our GR options and counters to his attacks make this only a -1. Really, we get ****ed on our landings and recovery, the rest isn't THAT bad.

We have logical counters for a lot of MKs stuff. We are SO GOOD at edgeguarding him, and we have a good time bringing him there. We juggle him pretty darn well.

MK plays low risk medium reward
We play medium-high risk high reward

It's a fair claim to think MK is her worst matchup, V115, but I don't have a reason to think it's -2. Shuttle loop is the worst thing about this matchup while everything else can be managed to some extent. So...-1 sounds accurate.

We're beaten offstage, but we still do well when we get under him in the air and we have the GR. Fighting him on the ground can be tricky, but it seems more like a matter of using our options properly.

For instance, downB appears to be a great option for Tornado. I feel like this is something we should be working on. Dakpo has a great example of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFiDfZB4vtg

Should we come up with a format like SFP and others did in the old board? It might be a great tool for archiving Nick's "central" thread.

Whatever works.

Does anyone use Down B OoS?

edit: I changed my R to special so i could jump shine with wlf and OoS Rest with puff, buti'm not sure how it benefits zss yet.

I feel like OoS Down B may be able to get us out of corners and even that nice footstool to get distance we need.

Just don't know if anyone's tried it.

I have used jump downB OoS before.

I do that mainly vs. Snake. I'll try it more in this MU if there are possibilities....

btw you can Down B out of shield while tornado is on your shield

If they move away, sure.

Xonar said:

If they move away, sure.

Click to expand...

nope, they can be straight on your shield

Tornado hits every two frames.

Jump startup is 5 frames.
Shield drop is 7 frames.

It's physically impossible.

but your not dropping your shield or jumping, its like marth's up B out of shield

No it's not. You can cancel jumps in upB, but you can't cancel jumps in downB. That's, once again, physically impossible.

downb oos

what the hell are you guys smoking LOL

Lord Chair said:

downb oos

what the hell are you guys smoking LOL

Click to expand...

Its called being innovative, its the kind of thinking that moves the metagame along, thanks

Xonar, I'll just have to do more testing. I could have sworn I already tested it.

I've thought about it before, Dakpo. It really is impossible. Please do note that Tornado hits less often if you're not spamming the B button, iirc.

Well, if it really doesn't work, you could always spotdodge-->buffered downB...that has fewer vulnerability frames, right?

That's basically the same as jumping but when your opponent sees a spotdodge you're sure that they won't move away.

2-20 / 25 Zero Suit Samus -> 5 frames of spotdodge cooldown

You could in theory do it during the frames prior to the last hit

But I'm sure we have better punish options

Couldn't you just grab the approaching tornado?
that only thing i've every really been able to do about that annoying **** is jab spam , manage to just clash several tornado's.

If the nado's in the air then jabbing will not cancel the nado (and you'll get hit), unless you jab the startup of it.

MK's approach high with nado cause everyone can grab (usually pivot grab) through it, and cause grounded nados will stop if you clash with it.

Gonna sound noobish but I feel that this match up is hard to a point it just depends on how aggro you are as a Zss player. Imo you shouldn't approach MK much at all unless you are sure or positive about making the hit if in my opinion never, leave yourself at an out.

I have played some spammy aggressive mk's on wifi the occasional good ones and I usually have trouble with them but from my experience MK really doesn't seem that hard at all the problem with him is that facing him you have to play different and I mean almost totally. To me it boils down to a point of rock, scissors, paper and MK will always have the rock and apparently that beats everything.

Playstyle is one thing it seems butI noticed in all of my matches against him that regardless of my playstyle I usually get beaten down to the rock, scissors, paper attacks wherein I make a choice and if it's wrong I get hit I know most matches can be played like this or this game could just be played Oos but he seems to be the number one character it must be done on.

So my advice like I read Dakpo say before Camp camp camp camp camp camp camp camp. However I will say Camp camp camp camp HIT Run away camp camp camp camp camp.

Don't believe me? I found a very good video of Patg versus Ally at KTAR5 oh and a small reminder hold on to 1 armor piece as long as you can and not for hitting for moving.

Here's the link watch the 1st match : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyyM0oGcrH4&feature=related

I like stunning him in his dash.