MU Discussion: Falco

According to the MU chart, we have a -1 in this MU.
If you disagree in any way, post.
If you agree at all, post why.

Discuss the Falco MU. I will try to stay out of MU discussions and let the other players talk.

I felt this match goes evenish. Don't really care about that part too much though.

As an overview, Falco prefers to take the fight to the ground as much as possible and prevent ZSS from getting a solid positional advantage over Falco. Once she does with the right moves, its pick or cover the right option against Falco when he is in the air or recovering and profit.

At the start of the match, I feel Falco will want to get rid of the suit pieces as much as possible. If he eats too much damage early on, he'll get hit offstage and potentially gimped since he has to rely on phantasm for his recovery if he cannot 2nd jump to the stage. UpB usage should be an auto-death. Time a suit piece right to hit him out of phantasm and he's dead.

If he ever short hops double laser, glide toss a suit piece at him and hit him out of his jump. Otherwise, he'll want to short hop laser. Save the option to reflect if ZSS tosses prematurely or laser if otherwise.

When dealing with lasers, I suppose you can try to duck under them. But, their more of a nuisance at a distance and really only important up close where if you are hit by one it gives falco that frame advantage into some attack (Usmash, dash attack, ftilt, etc). At those distances, power shield. Phantasm should be another thing you shield on reaction if he does it on stage and try to bait his landing or attack if its laggy enough. Otherwise, your goal is to hit him out of phantasm when he is offstage.

If he ever Rapid Jabs, SDI up and behind, then Uair. Alternating control stick behind, and c-stick Up mashing should work nearly every time.

I'd sort of like to know how to edgeguard ZSS. Going out and trying to get her to waste her 2nd jump or get to the ledge is about all I can think of reliably. The threat of her SideB spike sort of makes me apprehensive about trying to hit her out of it from the ledge.

Just wondering why would you stay out of the discussions?

Your opinion would be the most valued of the ZSS players lol

I wait for other people to talk. If somebody says anything I really disagree with, I'll post. Then, when it looks like it has died down, I'll post something at the end.

Fair enough.

I don't really think Falco is going to easily edgeguard ZSS anytime soon. Unless you can get her to momentum cancel with her downB, then maybe you can edgehog, wait for her to use her 2nd jump and attempt to hit her out of it..but other than that I don't see anything that Falco can do except for shooting lasers to build damage.

-1, close to even. I'd say this is ZSS' easiest MU that she still loses. Falco can force her to approach with lasers and beats her up-close with his jab and grab, so unless ZSS has a stock lead I feel like Falco doesn't really have to approach. However, ZSS does have some things going for her, like being able to gimp Falco, and she also has superior kill power I feel. Once Falco hits ~120% ZSS can kill him with bair, fair, uair and sideB rather easily (off of something as simple as reading an airdodge) whereas I feel Falco has to 'fish' for a kill with his usmash, or kill with something like bair or ftilt at around 150.

Falco is dumb.

-2

Luckily nobody gives a penis about you

I'm okay with accepting no penis'

It's -1 for sure. We will be destroyed by lasers if we don't approach and our approach game isn't great. Other than that, no huge threats offstage, really, we want him in the air as zss always does, and we can gimp him well if he makes a poor offstage decision. Lasers are the biggest hurdle, but they can be managed if we explore all of our options. The most useful of which are crawls, SHADs maybe, or CPing a cramped stage where he can't laser camp well. Prioritize approaching Falco while anticipating his annoying frame trap attempts from lasers and predicting his phantasm patterns (which he should usually be doing the moment we start closing in on him). And, of course, be looking for an opportunity for a ledgegrab gimp at all times if he ends up forced to upB offstage. The main thing about this MU is to catch on to Falco's patterns early because they should be noticible if camping is his primary option lol. Figuring them out will allow us to approach consistently and have more opportunities to exploit our strengths.

In terms of matchup-specifics, look for an opening for a 0-60~% Dsmash chain. He'll be attempting Dthrow chain grabs when we're at low percents, so watch out for that, too. If we Dsmash Falco offstage, a footstool-to-timely ledgegrab will gimp him. Jab will stop phantasm, which is useful at the ledge. Ban FD.

Honestly, this matchup has not changed at all for us, as most of this should be known. Apparently, the only difference as of late is that zss has proven her potential in this matchup enough to not make Falco a counter character. As such, once we are able to approach Falco consistently, this matchup is very manageable.

BioDG said:

We will be destroyed by lasers if we don't approach and our approach game isn't great.

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Nope.

BioDG said:

Other than that, no huge threats offstage, really, we want him in the air as zss always does, and we can gimp him well if he makes a poor offstage decision.

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Nope.

BioDG said:

Lasers are the biggest hurdle, but they can be managed if we explore all of our options.

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Contradiction to your first statement.

BioDG said:

The most useful of which are crawls, SHADs maybe, or CPing a cramped stage where he can't laser camp well.

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Have those EVER worked for you?

BioDG said:

Prioritize approaching Falco while anticipating his annoying frame trap attempts from lasers and predicting his phantasm patterns (which he should usually be doing the moment we start closing in on him).

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I approve.

BioDG said:

And, of course, be looking for an opportunity for a ledgegrab gimp at all times if he ends up forced to upB offstage.

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This won't ever happen.

BioDG said:

The main thing about this MU is to catch on to Falco's patterns early because they should be noticible if camping is his primary option lol. Figuring them out will allow us to approach consistently and have more opportunities to exploit our strengths.

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Except Falco shouldn't PURE camp at all. His superior CQC is actually one of his if not his biggest boon in the match-up.

BioDG said:

In terms of matchup-specifics, look for an opening for a 0-60~% Dsmash chain.

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PLEASE don't actively do this. PLEASE.

BioDG said:

He'll be attempting Dthrow chain grabs when we're at low percents, so watch out for that, too.

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He'll only be actively looking for it if he's bad though.

BioDG said:

If we Dsmash Falco offstage, a footstool-to-timely ledgegrab will gimp him. Jab will stop phantasm, which is useful at the ledge. Ban FD.

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Word, nice funny gimmick. Jab is legit though. Just don't ban FD. Ban BF or SV.

BioDG said:

Honestly, this matchup has not changed at all for us, as most of this should be known. Apparently, the only difference as of late is that zss has proven her potential in this matchup enough to not make Falco a counter character. As such, once we are able to approach Falco consistently, this matchup is very manageable.

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This match-up changed tons. You just haven't changed and you're probably pretty darn terrible. Your analysis looks like it's from 2007 or something and it's about as uninformative as a day in an American school.

o.o
Why do you think Falco does better on BF/SV than on FD?

Falco profits more from having platforms for his recovery, camping, getting off the ledge, landing and scoring kills.

Which are all his main strengths/weaknesses.

I should know, I've been a long time Falco main. FD is one of our worst neutrals.

Are you sure you're not the only successful Falco main that thinks FD is one of his worst neutrals?

..No offense, but are you even successful with Falco? Cause honestly, the only reason I know you exist is because you post on these boards and I've seen a few clips of you in Mr.R's combo video...XD

And maybe on SV, but I don't see how BF's platforms help Falco recover. There's more than enough lag for ZSS to punish.

Edit: And I don't I've ever seen a Falco use a platform to help him get on stage from the ledge..not on BF.

Larry's favorite stage with Falco is Battlefield.

How's that for successful Falcos?

Then again, Canadian Falcos are pretty bad.

FD vs BF/SV
Falco has fewer recovery options on FD for one. He's going to be using 2nd jump and phantasm for basically all his recovery. Without platforms, he has to either go low to the stage for little lag or for the ledge. Its almost like a 50/50 shot at that point.

On BF and SV he has more options for landing phantasm such as the upper platform or lower platforms on BF. On SV, the moving platform can give him another option such as 2nd jump to it if it moves offstage.

I think BF platforms give Falco a really good advantage when ZSS is in the air. No character can air-dodge or use aerials above a platform and go through it. The platform will stop them and give the character landing lag if they try. You first have to pass through the platform before using an aerial or air dodge to avoid the landing lag.

In this way, Falco can easily cover any landings near the platforms without much risk to himself. His short hop with Nair/Bair covers practically the entire lower platforms. His full hop can get him to the upper platform quickly. He can follow ZSS into the air and attempt to bait her into doing something, if not, he can fall through the platform and be safe waiting for her to land. If you do not try to land on the stage and drift to the sides, your on the ledge. Falco still has a really good advantage at that point.

I'm agreeing that as falco, I'd rather play on SV or BF rather than FD. The lack of platforms and therefore lack of options on FD is a pain for getting back on stage.

Phantasm
What moves do you all usually try to time to hit Falco out of phantasm? Any move hits him out of it so long as its a hitbox and you actually time it right. Long lasting hitboxes and large ones are best usually. You can try jab, but you have to time it pretty well.

I'd say Dash attack or Utilt is best. Both have hardly any prep. time compared to say jumping start-up, then aerial start-up. And they are fairly large at ground level and last awhile.

Dash attack will probably trade since it's transcendent and doesn't really have any disjoint.
Utilt is probably good, though I've never tried it.

About Falco being good on BF cause he can harass you in the air...I get that, but, wouldn't you say the platforms benefit ZSS more? They turn upB and usmash into safe options, her upB and sh nair (back hitbox) hit the top platform perfectly, and, you know, ZSS has amazing aerials.

Eh, I'm probably gonna end up banning FD anyway. BF is like my favourite stage.

You can dTilt, which is what I usually use.

You can hold jab, which makes timing easier.

Dash Attack overall is good.

And damn why do people write out paragraphs like that? You should just tell someone something and then belittle them until you get your right. That's how Smashboards works.

infiniteV115 said:

Dash attack will probably trade since it's transcendent and doesn't really have any disjoint.
Utilt is probably good, though I've never tried it.

About Falco being good on BF cause he can harass you in the air...I get that, but, wouldn't you say the platforms benefit ZSS more? They turn upB and usmash into safe options, her upB and sh nair (back hitbox) hit the top platform perfectly, and, you know, ZSS has amazing aerials.

Eh, I'm probably gonna end up banning FD anyway. BF is like my favourite stage.

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Babe, I play both characters. Let me tell you, when ZSS dashes at me on FD I'm so much more scared than when on BF. I also feel way more intimidating when I'm ZSS in that situation.

One big wall o' text. Get it all out there at once.

Dash attack wouldn't trade I imagine. Falco's hitbox in phantasm is behind his hurtbox. Kick the beak.

Yeah, the stage works both ways. Who spends more time in what position is the victor.

Falco is easier on FD than on BF. Platforms are lame vs. him.

Also, time jab to stop side-b. It's one frame, just press A at the right time.

It's possible to gimp Falco... but it's not easy. I've been doing jab > d-smash edgeguard since 2010. Get at my level.

Also, Xonar, crawling and air-dodge weaving is actually how I get around most projectiles nowadays... so don't knock it too hard.

Air dodge weaving is bad against Falco because he has SideB >_>

If he isn't on auto-pilot laser mode it'll **** you up.

Not if you don't mindlessly use it. Wiggles.

I have not seen much on how ZSS exactly wants to tackle Falco at approaching or baiting him.

I'll admit I didn't think it has changed significantly (very few falcos around me, honestly) so forgive me for my rather poor analysis, guys. But I will say that air dodging on approach on occasion does help me at times (I wouldn't call myself terrible, though).

Xonar: Since you think air dodging is bad, what are your suggestions for approach?

Walk, run, predict sideB patterns, intimidate.

If falco grabs you and strats playing like it's melee again LMAO with Down throws and DAirs hitting you back into the ground you're ****ed especially if he finishes with a D smash/F smash you will reach 80% in no time.

Someone said falco can't ledge guard tilts mofo tilts and Jabs like he does oli.

Also Bio said -1 should be -2.

Dunno how you're gonna edgeguard with jabs and tilts when we have the longest tether in the game but okay XD

That's a good point that I was not thinking of just goes to show how much knowledge I lack and or how much I don't stay hanging on the ledge to my advantage.