Your Opinion on the Brawl Rule Set

Denti · Apr 16, 2012

As somebody who attends tournaments left and right, as well as somebody who hosts many tournaments, I've got quite a bit of exposure to rule sets. In my opinion regarding rule sets, there is a difference between being somebody who runs tournaments and somebody who plays in those rule sets at the tournament winning level.

If the majority of Texas smashers agree to forming a Texas Brawl Rule Set (TBRS), this thread could be a great reference material of our collective opinions for the people making the TBRS.

In the community right now there are a lot of different opinions on what the rules should be. Listed below are my opinions regarding a lot of controversial rule set questions.

* * * * *

Q1. What is your opinion on the metaknight ban?

A1. If anyone knows my tournament series 'Revolution', it is MK legal.

I've had a lot of influence regarding the MK ban from the video Mike Haze created; I highly recommend it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD11l3omQzM

As somebody who attends tournaments all the time, I have noticed all the metaknight mains have all started placing the same, or in some cases better with MK banned. It shouldn't go unnoticed that Infinity has beaten Illmatic, Infern, and I in a set WITH MK banned. Infinity's MK got 2-0'd by Infern the one time they played before. Also Pwii has defeated me this weekend with MK banned (though he has yet to beat me with his MK). Dojo has defeated Megafox and I with MK banned. ALSM, with MK banned, has beaten PJ and has taken me to the last game (even in finals) before.

With this in mind, why are we banning MK? The players are obviously winning with or without MK. Nobody is stealing wins solely because of this character!

Also, all the MK ban has done is make some players within the scene quit or stop trying as hard. I've noticed this particularly in the Dallas scene with Dphat and D4BA. I've also noticed Infinity has stopped training like he use to after the ban. I know some MK mains debate on whether or not to enter MK banned tournaments. With the Amarillo and Lubbock scene, (the panhandle of TX) they don't ban MK because it would kill their region. Anybody who argues that MK banned increases turnouts in Texas is wrong; it is killing some scenes. Also Kon just posted in here saying how he's stopped trying and traveling near as hard since the ban.

Q2. In your opinion, should double metaknight be allowed in doubles?

A2. This is the one character ban I agree with. After the Apex teams results, I think everyone should agree double MK is too broken. I can't think of any non-MK characters that could team together and defeat a top double MK consistently. And if there turns out to be a character or two who can compete against double MK is that all doubles should be? In other words, I think double MK literally ruins the competition in doubles.

Double MK
- has the best stage control in the game
- regains stage control easily and KEEPS IT.
- There are moments when they don't have to assist each other to stay safe . A single MK can reset any situation for himself in doubles at almost anytime.

Q3. In your opinion, what should be the legal stages?

A3.

"If there is anything stealing the wins, it's the stages." -ALSM

I think the counter pick system is too broken. I understand that it is supposed to be a "counter", but sometimes winning game 1 is too important, especially regarding MK. For example, this weekend Pwii beat me on game 3 by pressuring me to choose between two poisons, GaW on Brinstar or ICs on FD, probably the strongest counter picks anyone might have to face. I think Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar are too broken, period, also MK dominates on these stages to the point where they get easy wins. Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar shouldn't be legal.

Q4. In your opinion, how long should the timer be? (Also including the ledge-grab-limit)

A4. I think Brawl needs a 10 minute timer. We need to take a lesson from the Japanese and put a 10 minute timer to use. Now this doesn't mean that I want super long games or something, because games almost never go to time anyways. Brawl just naturally takes time. I've felt like there are some matches that I've played that required more time to end with a kill blow. I'm not saying that time outs aren't legit wins, I'm saying that Brawl is a slow game and some MUs require more time to end without a timeout.

For people who will throw data at me and say time outs rarely happen- you are forgetting one detail. People have to start running in recklessly at the last moments. Of course, very few matches actually end in a time out.

Everyone should have their own universal LGL (50). Also I think MK still needs his own LGL (35) too, as well as a rule discouraging scrooging. This is with a 10 minute timer.

Q5. In your opinion, what should a universal ruleset be?
(Tournament Organizers' Discretion versus Mandatory for Power Ranking Systems)

A5. When I first came into the scene the rule set had options in its recommendations, unlike today.

For example, which neutrals you had used to be an option.

It would be like this:
Final Destination (Neutral)
Battle field (Neutral)
Smashville (Neutral)
Yoshi's Island (Neutral)
Lylat Cruise (Neutral/Counterpick)
Pokemon Stadium 1 (Neutral/Counterpick)
Castle Siege (Neutral/Counterpick)

This means that if you wanted 5 neutrals you would have to choose 1 of the (Neutral/Counterpick) stages to be the extra neutral. Or say you wanted 7 neutrals, then you would have all of them included.

This same system goes for counter pick stages:
Delfino Plaza (Counter pick)
Halberd (Counter pick)
Frigate (Counter pick / Banned)
Rainbow Cruise (Counter pick / Banned)
Brinstar (Counter pick / Banned)

This basically states that it's the TO's decision to have certain stages as a counter pick or as banned.

I think a rule set should be flexible to the TO.

* * * * *

Now what I want from you! YES, YOU!! The reader!

Please post your opinions regarding questions 1-5 whether or not you agree or disagree. Also, please add references to support your arguments.

If anyone has any viable questions for discussion, I can put it up on the OP for easy viewing.

AeroLink_the_SoulMaster · Apr 16, 2012

Interesting read. We've already talked about this before, so you know I pretty much agree with just about everything you pointed out.

Zano · Apr 16, 2012

1. I didn't really care about the MK ban either way cause I just want to play, but it didn't really change anything for the better, as it just resulted in an increase of ICs and Olimars, lol.

2. Double MK should be banned, even anti-ban players would agree with that, and quad MK for GFs every tourney is just ******** to watch so many times.

3. I think everyone should be forced to play Smashville game 1, don't be that guy people.

4. Timer is fine, 2 more minutes won't stop people from trying to time out, it will just make sets longer, but I could be wrong.

5. Neutrals only 4 life. #Marth

Mew2King · Apr 16, 2012

olimar/ICs are better [on neutrals], they dominate Japan and EC (and lately rich has been ****** WC).

dabuz won this weekend, rich got 9th this weekend but won last event he entered before that iirc, and Nietono/Brood got top 2 in Japan last tournament, with Rain/Otori/Kakera getting 4th and 5th (Brood also won teams with Yui).

Besides results, I've felt that olimar was top tier back in 2008 when everyone put him in mid tier due to the moveset he had. High damage output per correct guess, gets out of tornado easily by smash DIing up the beginning of it (and can often Nair -> up smash as a punish for a not-perfect tornado), a grab that beats almost any approach and either combos them or puts them to the ledge (which olimar is really good at abusing by spamming grabs and F smashes from the ledge), and MANY options to land (mixing up aerials w/ high damage output and priority, Nair which changes the timing of blocking, air dodge to spot dodge mixed with air dodge to up smash, and Whistle which is invincible 15/20 frames and starts on frame 2, as fast as a spot dodge) he has GOOD answers to many situations where if they don't guess the situation correctly (which is often like 1/3 chance since he has so many options more than people seem to think) he can punish them hard with high damage output, land, and then camp with more pikmin.

As far as ICs go I just feel the way this game is where many situations can be narrowed down to 50/50s (example - waiting to grab an aerial attack as opposed to grabbing the air dodge landing lag on characters that have to fall to the ground) but getting a 0-death reward off of it for simple muscle memory (which americans don't put enough time into mastering but once you do you can't do anything about it) is just insanely broken, but few great players put the time into mastering them. Example - atomsk is one of the best ICs players but he barely puts time into them compared to other characters yet many consider him 3rd best ICs in USA despite the lack of pure ICs effort (he's more of an all-around player). What would a mastered ICs do? (kill the game cuz they're gay).

MK is really really good but he's very overrated too since many other characters have tons of potential. I think he's top 3 for sure but he's incredibly overrated due to my melee experience when i started this game and tons of people jumping the MK bandwagon and copy-what-they-see bandwagon. I think the current ruleset he'd be number 3, maybe diddy's better but adhd decided to quit and gnes doesn't do much so it's hard to say (but I think diddy's amazing because of his camping game and high damage output, and ability to mix up things such as fast fall air dodge -> spot dodge, mixed with Fair to land, and if they guess wrong he either does 15 damage with fair, or 12 damage with spot dodge to grab to throw away and then pull out bananas). I can't believe there was ever even a ban talk in the first place, everyone just wants to make the game easier for themselves and this kind of split, as I said a long time ago, would be the downfall of the game for regions that decide to ban him (especially since most of the world isn't at this point).

As far as double MK goes, I think that's the 4th best team. I honestly think it goes Lucario GW (OHKO bucket + aura), MK Lucario (Aura), MK Snake (C4), and then MK MK (best teams char alone but isn't complimented with a fast KO ability from his teammate as the other 3 teams are, and fast KOs are EXTREMELY important in the HIGH LEVEL metagame of teams).

With that said, I don't care if double MK is banned if it makes more people enter, as I do not see THAT affecting tournaments in any negative way honestly. The metaknights will show up regardless, they just won't team with each other. More people may even enter teams as a result. Even though it doesn't deserve to be banned, because of it having no negative impacts, I could actually see that helping the game rather than not. I still think it's unneeded though, but I don't care either way as far as that goes and that part should be TO discretion for the reasons I stated above.

Q1. What is your opinion on the metaknight ban?
Stupid; the stupidest thing parts of the smash community have ever done

Q2. In your opinion, should double metaknight be allowed in doubles?
TO Discretion. If not, then BAN DOUBLE MK, but NOT because it's broken, because it's not broken at all. I say no because more people would come to the tournaments with no negative impacts, MKs and non MKs included, MORE PEOPLE WOULD ENTER TEAMS, BOTH MKs and NON-MKS INCLUDED. This is good for the game for that reason ONLY. It's honestly a very overrated team though, because they lack KO power and don't gimmick-help each other the way many other team combinations can do.

Q3. In your opinion, what should be the legal stages?
don't care anymore lol, but changing the timer should help the stages either way. OR, IF YOU REALLY WANT TO USE FUN STAGES, THEN SIMPLY DON'T ALLOW A METAKNIGHT TO PICK A NON-NEUTRAL WHICH SOLVES ALL PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT

Q4. In your opinion, how long should the timer be? (Also including the ledge-grab-limit)
10 min (don't care anymore)

Q5. In your opinion, what should a universal ruleset be?
(Tournament Organizers' Discretion versus Mandatory for Power Ranking Systems)
TO discretion

KoNfucius · Apr 16, 2012

i havent been practicing much since the ban or even made an attempt to attend out of city tournaments or even tournaments with more than 5$ entrance fee. (just to add to you point about mk mains not making effort)

Edit: holy crap m2k typed a ****ing book better get reading.

Edit: it was a good read.

Denti · Apr 16, 2012

KoNfucius said:
i havent been practicing much since the ban or even made an attempt to attend out of city tournaments or even tournaments with more than 5$ entrance fee. (just to add to you point about mk mains not making effort)

I'll add this to my list. Thanks

Sanji Himura · Apr 16, 2012

Taking this concept from eyes that have never played Brawl competitively, most other gaming communities wouldn't even consider, in answer to question 2, to allow the same characters on the same team. I know that most people consider Smash as a different animal, but we ought to consider to stop allowing teams that make up the same character. I mean, if we ban double MK, we should ban them all.

The MK ban itself did more harm than good on the sole charge that it was not adopted internationally. By the URC forcing the ban on every TO's throats in the US, it effectively cut the scene in half, both nationally and internationally. The only way to restore that balance is to make the ban TO optional.

That is all that I am willing to weigh in on tonight. I'll have more in the morning.

Mew2King · Apr 16, 2012

Ban shouldn't ever exist in the first place. It's stupid, and he is overrated, and not the best at all with this current ruleset either. I'm not saying that to be biased, it's truely what I think, and recent results have also backed this up coincidentally anyway. Double MK is overrated as hell, and the only reason I think it's okay to ban that (TO Discretion) is because it would not split the community in ANY way, because MKs and non MKs all won't care (and those that care will be < 1% of people, compared to many others that would enter teams) and it can ONLY help entrants in ANY region imo. I gave reasons for everything I said; hope you all read them because it's important and true.

Sanji Himura · Apr 16, 2012

Mew2King said:
Ban shouldn't ever exist in the first place. It's stupid, and he is overrated, and not the best at all with this current ruleset either. I'm not saying that to be biased, it's truely what I think, and recent results have also backed this up coincidentally anyway. Double MK is overrated as hell, and the only reason I think it's okay to ban that (TO Discretion) is because it would not split the community in ANY way, because MKs and non MKs all won't care (and those that care will be < 1% of people, compared to many others that would enter teams). I gave reasons for everything I said; hope you all read them because it's important and true.

I have read what you said, but all I was saying was if you are going to ban one pair of the same character(MK) some serious thought should be given to ban same character teams. I personally think that the current ruleset has MADE MK overrated and broken. I understand the need to have rules in place to have some sort of regulations over the game, but a balanced fighter requires little to no interference from the community. And this is what Denti is pointing out to I suspect, but the URC is trying to act like the government in regulating Smash in the US, and that brings up my second point about the ban, unless there is an international agreement with what to do with him, the MK ban problem will never go away.

Mew2King · Apr 16, 2012

No character teams should be banned, that's stupid. Double MK included; it's just so many people are ******** and BECAUSE IT HAS NO NEGATIVE IMPACT TO ALMOST ANYBODY by catering to their newb-ass-wants, I think it's fine for that reason ALONE. That's the only reason. ONLY. But it doesn't really matter anyway.

You can't compare smash to other fighters. Smash wasn't designed with tournaments in mind like the other fighting games were. It's also not even similar in any way at all. It's like comparing clouds to apples. They aren't similar at all. (smash is a much better game though by far /bias,but-truth

Sync. · Apr 16, 2012

Wow nice thread lol. I was drafting rules already today after we talked this weekend Denti. I'm still working on it but I'm glad to see a thread asking people's opinion on things. Generally from what I learned from Allan it doesn't always work out...

Anyway, my answers are:

1. Idgaf MK legal or not I'm still attending tournaments

2. If MK is legal he should be legal all the way so yes double MK

3. By gods good grace PLEASE keep RC and Brinstar. I play Olimar so this isn't helping me. Characters that need those stages as CPs become a lot less viable. I don't want **** ~16 characters just because of one. And CPing isn't broken. It's what this game is. If you feel like you're getting CPed that hard, adapt and pick up another character to handle those CPs. Brawl and smash has ALWAYS been about CPing.

4. 8 minute timer please. If we hav a 10 minute timer, it's just another one and half minutes we have to wait until people start running in recklessly. People that have the intention to time out don't care about two more minutes. (name search this Tesh) It'll just make tournaments longer unnecessarily. The Japanese don't have everything right...look at their Metagame. It's just like Melee over there with like 6 characters

5. I think a ruleset should be flexible to a TO. Everything is ultimately the TOs discretion.

5.

AeroLink_the_SoulMaster · Apr 16, 2012

M2K, what about MK Wario team? I would imagine that team would do well against double MK as well.

I heard that Otori and Kakera lost to a double Wario team.

Mew2King · Apr 16, 2012

yeah wario's really good. I personally prefer Snake (ally) and I feel the C4 tornado and C4 up throw make MK Snake better (also i team way way better with ally's snake than his wario) but I also have difficulty fighting warios. Inui's wario was ****** me in team friendlies this weekend but I was 3 stocking his MK like nothing. MK Wario might be 4th, or 5th. Idk. It's up there though.

Okuser · Apr 16, 2012

1. I don't really care whether he's banned or not, I will attend tournaments regardless and so will the MK players in my state. I'm not sure about higher levels of play, but I don't lose matches because someone is using MK, it's because they outplayed me. Although there is certainly a substantial amount of evidence for a ban.

2. MK should WITHOUT A DOUBT be limited to 1 per team in doubles.

3. RC and Brinstar should be legal, along with other general counterpicks. Certain characters benefit far too much from an absence of specific counter pick stages. The counter picking system WORKS and is also extremely fun.

4. 8 minute timer is fine. why in the world would people want a possible 30 minute bo3? all this will accomplish is making individual games last 2 minutes longer when you are getting timed out by someone.

5. TO's discretion. each region is unique and requires specific things.

edit: lol I can tell m2k has been waiting to say all this **** for a WHILE

Sanji Himura · Apr 16, 2012

Mew2King said:
No character teams should be banned, that's stupid. Double MK included; it's just so many people are ******** and BECAUSE IT HAS NO NEGATIVE IMPACT TO ALMOST ANYBODY by catering to their newb-***-wants, I think it's fine for that reason ALONE. That's the only reason. ONLY. But it doesn't really matter anyway.

You can't compare smash to other fighters. Smash wasn't designed with tournaments in mind like the other fighting games were. It's also not even similar in any way at all. It's like comparing clouds to apples. They aren't similar at all.

I like how you played the "you can't compare Smash to other Fighters" card when you do not have anything smart to say. The Backroom's expressed intention is to make a tournament fighter out of something that it is not, and everybody griped and complained when EVO didn't follow the community trend and allowed item play in its only Brawl tournament in 2008. And when someone, namely me, questions one of the cardinal tenants of the Brawl ruleset, you attack like Obama did Joe the Plumber.

Mew2King · Apr 16, 2012

Also, to be honest, players in USA are mostly dumb and VERy biased when it comes to the MK topic. If a MK player ***** someone badly by being really smart, precise, etc., or wins in ANY WAY, unless he's japanese, he's just "gay" or "mk is broken"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-19NssjjZQ - I was playing perfect (I picked examples that people called "gay" because I pressed B a lot and that's all they could see because 99% of people are n00bs that don't understand anything and can't see all the little little things I did all perfectly)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zn8vA8zxw - I was playing perfect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Y9pRs4zFw - (most recent set was not recorded unfortunately, it was 2 months before apex2012, and i 2 and 3 stocked going ALL aggro, but even in those sets it wasn't even gay what I did and the comments and crowd said otherwise)

and if 9b does this muscle-memory where he gets 3 grabs to get on a japanese MK player, he's the best player in the world - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1DGV1wozCQ

extreme example but you guys get the idea (I see this all the time)

because everyone is brain washed from all the newb's preaching long ago.

There was never a problem (except newbs who lose to only tornado and don't DI shuttle loops and don't know anything about high level play and why things work or how to beat them), until chillin made a thread in BBR in late 2008 after i won a bunch of tourneys saying to ban MK and then suddenly every person debates this and then splits occurred. Had chillin/overswarm never done that back then it probably wouldn't be a problem today. Had 9b lived in USA ICs would be banned by now for making tournaments lame. No hate on him he's probably an awesome guy and I respect his very high skill level but you get the idea (hopefully anyway).

KoNfucius · Apr 16, 2012

Q1. What is your opinion on the metaknight ban?

Im anti ban mk.

Q2. In your opinion, should double metaknight be allowed in doubles?

Im for it even though i love watching 4x mk on screen. it can get repetitive when it happens tournament after tournament.

Q3. In your opinion, what should be the legal stages?

i like our current starter list i would however change the counter pick stages by banning brinstar and rainbow. Rainbow becuase this is the stage i always see time outs. like its sole purpose for being picked is to time someone out. Brinstar because i have literally stole wins because of it, even with out mk. TL on brinstar is almost auto win most matchups with mk banned imo.

Q4. In your opinion, how long should the timer be? (Also including the ledge-grab-limit)

i like 8 min nothing else really.

Q5. In your opinion, what should a universal ruleset be?
(Tournament Organizers' Discretion versus Mandatory for Power Ranking Systems)

i think it should be up to the TO. any how every time i go to a tournament or see a tourny thread its always " ruleset is modified unity" with the TO banning brinstar and rainbow, changing the starters or counter picks even banning the unity approved coaching. so why even call it unity if every TO is gonna modify it.

Mew2King · Apr 16, 2012

Sanji Himura said:
I like how you played the "you can't compare Smash to other Fighters" card when you do not have anything smart to say. The Backroom's expressed intention is to make a tournament fighter out of something that it is not, and everybody griped and complained when EVO didn't follow the community trend and allowed item play in its only Brawl tournament in 2008. And when someone, namely me, questions one of the cardinal tenants of the Brawl ruleset, you attack like Obama did Joe the Plumber.

how is smash similar to other fighters? You have freedom of movement, platforms, combos and setups using a system of hitting the person farther as their % increases, different ways of winning (KOing on the sides, top, or bottom of the stage), and stages that can heavily impact the flow of the game. None of this is like any other fighter.

Sanji Himura · Apr 16, 2012

Mew2King said:
Also, to be honest, players in USA are mostly dumb and VERy biased when it comes to the MK topic. If a MK player ***** someone badly by being really smart, precise, etc., or wins in ANY WAY, unless he's japanese, he's just "gay" or "mk is broken"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-19NssjjZQ - I was playing perfect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zn8vA8zxw - I was playing perfect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Y9pRs4zFw - (most recent set was not recorded unfortunately, it was 2 months before apex2012, and i 2 and 3 stocked going ALL aggro, but even in those sets it wasn't even gay what I did and the comments and crowd said otherwise)

and if 9b does this muscle-memory where he gets 3 grabs to get on a japanese MK player, he's the best player in the world - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1DGV1wozCQ

extreme example but you guys get the idea (I see this all the time)

because everyone is brain washed from all the newb's preaching long ago.

There was never a problem (except newbs who lose to only tornado and don't DI shuttle loops and don't know anything about high level play and why things work or how to beat them), until chillin made a thread in BBR in late 2008 after i won a bunch of tourneys saying to ban MK and then suddenly every person debates this and then splits occurred. Had chillin/overswarm never done that back then it probably wouldn't be a problem today. Had 9b lived in USA ICs would be banned by now for making tournaments lame. No hate on him he's probably an awesome guy and I respect his very high skill level but you get the idea (hopefully anyway).

I'll admit that I thought, and still think to this day that whoever started the MK ban debate was an idiot. I think that back then, everybody didn't know the MK match up, and rather than play the game, they rather ban.

Mew2King · Apr 16, 2012

I'll tell you about the backroom, and most of them are NOT in it for the interest of anyone but themself. Back room is filled with tons of biased people (everyone is baised, but if you actually look how none of the URC even mains MK that's pertty pathetic when they can vote on a MK ban) trying to make rules that cater to them. I've been through this topic like 100 times and I don't wanna go into it, but if you need to know IN DETAIL how corrupt they are, you can either search my post history or talk to me privately cuz I don't want to repeat it all again here. Trust me, most of them are in it for themselves though. that's the tl;dr

Sanji Himura said:
I'll admit that I thought, and still think to this day that whoever started the MK ban debate was an idiot. I think that back then, everybody didn't know the MK match up, and rather than play the game, they rather ban.

pretty much

Mew2King · Apr 16, 2012

I'm going to sleep now since I have to wake up in 3 hours for college. message me on facebook (facebook.com/mew2king) and send me a msg if you need more explanation and I'll get around to it some time. Night. I think I said everything I had to (the truth of everything) anyway.

Dojo · Apr 16, 2012

Okay M2k, you've explained your point. Stfu.

NeoBatou · Apr 16, 2012

Denti, Aerolink and the DFW Community, I will say that I do owe you and the community an apology. I will admit that at first I had a biased dislike for Metaknight. That was because I was merging from melee to brawl still, and I didn't know how to go against Metaknight.

I didn't know what to do initially, and so a player with limited experience will not know what to do against Metaknight. But over the years I've been developing into a smarter play style. I've learned to be more patient, make better plays, read frame data, etc.

I have developed into a better player by playing against Metaknight mains alike, and I've come with the conclusion that MK is not my main competition, it's the other set of characters like ZSS, Diddy (especially), Snake, Wario, and especially IC's/Olimar that seem to sneak up wins against me, so I have to become a overall better player against ALL characters.

Personally, I don't know what to say about the MK ban. I"ll leave it up to everyone else, but ultimately I'll be going to tournaments anyways regardless if Metaknight is banned or not.

I run MK banned tournaments as an option now. I may switch it up from time to time so we'll have to see how that goes. But I do know that I hope you all accept my apology. Back then I let my emotions get to me, so it effectively blinded me from becoming a better player back then.

Sanji Himura · Apr 16, 2012

Mew2King said:
how is smash similar to other fighters? You have freedom of movement, platforms, combos and setups using a system of hitting the person farther as their % increases, different ways of winning (KOing on the sides, top, or bottom of the stage), and stages that can heavily impact the flow of the game. None of this is like any other fighter.

Basic principles in any fighter: you have a set life bar. You control spacing to execute your attacks, combos. Finally, you have special attacks that does damage to your enemy.

Smash has about a 300% life per character stock, platforms can effect movement, and that movement affects spacing, and thus attacks. Finally, Smash uses a combination of B Smash attacks and Items(which are banned in a normal match anyways) that inflict damage to your enemy.

Everything else is just gameplay design.

Mew2King said:
I'll tell you about the backroom, and most of them are NOT in it for the interest of anyone but themself. Back room is filled with tons of biased people (everyone is baised, but if you actually look how none of the URC even mains MK that's pertty pathetic when they can vote on a MK ban) trying to make rules that cater to them. I've been through this topic like 100 times and I don't wanna go into it, but if you need to know IN DETAIL how corrupt they are, you can either search my post history or talk to me privately cuz I don't want to repeat it all again here. Trust me, most of them are in it for themselves though. that's the tl;dr

No need to tell me.

Leaf. · Apr 16, 2012

1: I don't care either way for MK being banned, I will attend tournaments regardless of him being legal or not. I've never really thought MK "stole wins" from me as a character, and the ONE time I did feel that way, I was on one of the potential banned stages which MK does great on.

2: I agree with double MK being banned. I don't care for doubles much, but when I do play I don't want to get steamrolled by two bats that push me off stage and kill me early, it feels almost impossible to stand up against that.

3: I feel that there should be 5 starters, BF, SV, FD, YI, and PS1. When it comes to counterpicks, I do not really have a care on what would be legal between the things listed in the OP. I recently had a talk which caused me to rethink the way I looked at RC/Brinstar/PS2, and I am indifferent on what would be legal.

4: An eight minute timer is fine for the game, I don't feel like ten minutes encourages anything or discourages anything. If someone has real plans to time someone out (i.e. this weekend, Sync vs Tesh) it will be very obvious regardless of the extra two minutes. 50 LGL/35 MKLGL is fine, and so is the rule against scrooging.

5: TO's choice. Variety would be cool to see.

Vinnie · Apr 16, 2012

Q1. What is your opinion on the metaknight ban?
Metaknight is good enough to be banned, but I think he should remain legal, due to international purposes.
Q2. In your opinion, should double metaknight be allowed in doubles?
No. But same reasoning as the first answer, it should remain legal for international purposes.
Q3. In your opinion, what should be the legal stages?
SRBT ruleset (fd-bf-sv neutrals, yi-ps1-lylat CPs).
Q4. In your opinion, how long should the timer be? (Also including the ledge-grab-limit)
10 minutes, 50 LGL.
Q5. In your opinion, what should a universal ruleset be?
Answer to question 3.

Zano · Apr 16, 2012

Dojo said:
Okay M2k, you've explained your point. Stfu.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14331594&postcount=96992

NeoBatou · Apr 16, 2012

Q1. What is your opinion on the metaknight ban?

I'm still debating on my opinion to the ban. I think this question should be asked to people who actually play metaknight.

Q2. In your opinion, should double metaknight be allowed in doubles?

I really don't see a problem with it. I've seen a variety of teams mesh well together so I think double metaknight won't be a really big issue. Teamwork is key and if you and your opponent are on the same page, you can do marvelous things regardless if your metaknight players or not.

Q3. In your opinion, what should be the legal stages?
Smashville, Final Destination, Battlefield, Lylat and Yoshi's Island for starters

Q4. In your opinion, how long should the timer be? (Also including the ledge-grab-limit)
The timer didn't matter to me, I tried to end the game as quick as possible, but a ten minute timer wouldn't hurt either.

Q5. In your opinion, what should a universal ruleset be?

No comment on this yet...

sheikamaru · Apr 16, 2012

question, asking everyone their opinions, where is this leading?

and i'll give my opinions.

subbed

Sync. · Apr 16, 2012

To ME ultimately drafting the rules BWAHAHAHAHAH deal with it shmeel with it new gens!!!!!

WAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAHHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Malice Chains · Apr 16, 2012

Ever since mk got banned Ive lost custody of my kids...I can't sleep at night and I'm starting to like black girls.

Dabuz · Apr 16, 2012

Q1. What is your opinion on the metaknight ban?

Pro-Ban. I don't support the ban because of personal hate for the character, I support it because it's what a majority of the community favors. In the EC, the past few months have show MK ban tourneys have gathered larger numbers than MK legal tournaments, and the MK ban ruleset is what people want.

Q2. In your opinion, should double metaknight be allowed in doubles?

No, too centralizing and ruins the motivation to enter teams.

Q3. In your opinion, what should be the legal stages?

I found the Apex ruleset stage list to be perfect for MK legal. With MK banned, RC and Brinstar should be added to the CPs.

Q4. In your opinion, how long should the timer be? (Also including the ledge-grab-limit)

8 minutes. It has been the standard for too long and changing the timer by 2 minutes will not and does not affect the game as drastically as people think. If time is a problem, stocks need to be lowered.

Q5. In your opinion, what should a universal ruleset be?
(Tournament Organizers' Discretion versus Mandatory for Power Ranking Systems)

TO's discretion. There can't be a perfect ruleset in Brawl, so sticking to one national ruleset only creates problems. Each region and group of players want to play a certain way.

Nike. · Apr 16, 2012

Idk why, but m2k using colors in his posts now warms my heart.

clowsui · Apr 16, 2012

Mew2King said:
Ban shouldn't ever exist in the first place. It's stupid, and he is overrated, and not the best at all with this current ruleset either. .

???

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

RAIN and Otori are p good examples of how to beat Olimar and ICs respectively even w Japanese ruleset. 9B made quite a few mistakes as did Nietono but RAIN has probably some of the most flawless strategies vs Olimar ever. You should know this best from studying him. It doesn't really hurt that he has a positive/even record vs both the Olimars

I mean I don't really care about the ban at this point but I kinda wanted to call this out =/

Reizilla · Apr 16, 2012

MK-legal

Double MK is cool

PS2 needs to be a starter and japes and norfair need to come back

10 minute timer is master race timer

I believe in ruleset diversity

Xyro77 · Apr 16, 2012

Denti said:
Q1. What is your opinion on the metaknight ban?

A1.

As somebody who attends tournaments all the time, I have noticed all the metaknight mains have all started placing the same, or in some cases better with MK banned. It shouldn't go unnoticed that Infinity has beaten Illmatic, Infern, and I in a set WITH MK banned. Infinity's MK got 2-0'd by Infern the one time they played before. Also Pwii has defeated me this weekend with MK banned (though he has yet to beat me with his MK). Dojo has defeated Megafox and I with MK banned. ALSM, with MK banned, has beaten PJ and has taken me to the last game (even in finals) before. With this in mind, why are we banning MK? The players are obviously winning with or without MK. Nobody is stealing wins solely because of this character!

Im sorry but you are just play uneducated from A-Z and use the classic anti-ban case.

1. MK mains are NOT placing the same/better. Look at results from all over the usa(which you clearly dont) and you will discover you are wrong. Tx cant really be counted cause A. mk never dominated here. B. Dojo has never been to a HOBO with gnes/razer/trela/illmatic since mk was banned. C. you claimed infinfity beat illmatic with out mk but you failed to mention it was illmatic that beat him in 2 sets of GFs. Please tell the WHOLE story instead of selectively choose pieces that fit your anti-ban agenda.

Also, you are using the term "mk steals wins" wrong, as expected. Its a term that means IN GENERAL thier wins are not skill based its due to mk being 1000000x better than the character/skill of the foe.

Also, all the MK ban has done is make some players within the scene quit or stop trying as hard. I've noticed this particularly in the Dallas scene with Dphat and D4BA. I've also noticed Infinity has stopped training like he use to after the ban. I know some MK mains debate on whether or not to enter MK banned tournaments. With the Amarillo and Lubbock scene, (the panhandle of TX) they don't ban MK because it would kill their region. Anybody who argues that MK banned increases turnouts in Texas is wrong; it is killing some scenes. Also Kon just posted in here saying how he's stopped trying and traveling near as hard since the ban.

Again, your lack of exp/common sense/anti-ban agenda cloud your eyes from the truth.

The tx scene has been dying MONTHS AND MONTHS before the MK ban.

1. People have been saturated with smash. They have been going to 37 HOBOs, 10-12 Phases , 10-11 Revolutions, 8-9 final smashes, 16 DMTs, 3 whobos and HUNDREDS of fests. All of these things have pretty much been happening every other week for the past 4 years(at one point, sunc was having fests/torunaments at his house EVERY WEEKEND for like 2-3 months). At one point tx was the most active state in the USA. People are sick of it.

2. People are tired of losing to the same people. GNES/RAZER/TRELA and some of DOJO. For the past 2.5-3 years these people have claimed top 3-4 in EVERY tournament(not whobo) they go to. So why do people want to travel when they know AT BEST they will get 5th(aka no money or very low money).

THOSE^ things are why the scene was dying.

3. MK ban. First of all, look at all the MK mains/mk 2ndaries(Their numbers are less that 15). Yea i agree it cause some of those people to stop playing/not travel(not all of them however). I also agree me banning him recently was a bad idea. I should have done it was back when attendance improved because he was gone(and it did, look up hobo results) but because item 1 and item 2 is happening and then i added item 3(mk ban), it didnt help anything in TEXAS. And since it was bad timing, i may make mk legal for whobo 4. ill think about it.

Me banning their character did not kill the scene.

Q2. In your opinion, should double metaknight be allowed in doubles?

A2. This is the one character ban I agree with. After the Apex teams results, I think everyone should agree double MK is too broken. I can't think of any non-MK characters that could team together and defeat a top double MK consistently. And if there turns out to be a character or two who can compete against double MK is that all doubles should be? In other words, I think double MK literally ruins the competition in doubles.

I agree mk should be banned in doubles.

Q3. In your opinion, what should be the legal stages?

I think the counter pick system is too broken. I understand that it is supposed to be a "counter", but sometimes winning game 1 is too important, especially regarding MK. For example, this weekend Pwii beat me on game 3 by pressuring me to choose between two poisons, GaW on Brinstar or ICs on FD, probably the strongest counter picks anyone might have to face. I think Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar are too broken, period, also MK dominates on these stages to the point where they get easy wins. Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar shouldn't be legal.

The current stage list is fine. Stages are not the problem, mk is. those stages only become nearly impossible to win on when MK is there. New Gens(aka 08 melee/brawl players and on) have this insane/uneducated idea that stages that move or stages with ANY hazard (this may be a stretch but i sometimes think they just wanna ban things they dislike) should all be banned. RC/Brin/Japes/Delf/Castle/Halberd are all fine and always have been.

Q4. In your opinion, how long should the timer be? (Also including the ledge-grab-limit) I think Brawl needs a 10 minute timer. We need to take a lesson from the Japanese and put a 10 minute timer to use. Now this doesn't mean that I want super long games or something, because games almost never go to time anyways. Brawl just naturally takes time. I've felt like there are some matches that I've played that required more time to end with a kill blow. I'm not saying that time outs aren't legit wins, I'm saying that Brawl is a slow game and some MUs require more time to end without a timeout.

For people who will throw data at me and say time outs rarely happen- you are forgetting one detail. People have to start running in recklessly at the last moments. Of course, very few matches actually end in a time out.

Everyone should have their own universal LGL (50). Also I think MK still needs his own LGL (35) too, as well as a rule discouraging scrooging. This is with a 10 minute timer.

I agree to 35 LGL and 50 for the rest of the cast.
8min timer is still and will always be fine.

Dojo · Apr 16, 2012

@Xyro:

I've been losing to those 3 for the past year now. I'd still be placing the same.

Xyro77 · Apr 16, 2012

Dojo said:
@Xyro:

I've been losing to those 3 for the past year now. I'd still be placing the same.

come prove it. currently u are sticking to easy cities

Cassio · Apr 16, 2012

1. People have been saturated with smash. They have been going to 37 HOBOs, 10-12 Phases , 10-11 Revolutions, 8-9 final smashes, 16 DMTs, 3 whobos and HUNDREDS of fests. All of these things have pretty much been happening every other week for the past 4 years(at one point, sunc was having fests/torunaments at his house EVERY WEEKEND for like 2-3 months). At one point tx was the most active state in the USA. People are sick of it.

2. People are tired of losing to the same people. GNES/RAZER/TRELA and some of DOJO. For the past 2.5-3 years these people have claimed top 3-4 in EVERY tournament(not whobo) they go to. So why do people want to travel when they know AT BEST they will get 5th(aka no money or very low money).

THOSE^ things are why the scene was dying.

Hope this doesnt sound like Im being picky and choosy, but very interesting points. I think this applies to a lot of regions outside Texas too, both as examples (PNW is turning into a ghost town) and counter-examples (socals tournaments have been consistently hitting over 50 this year after some adjustments compared to essentially none last year). I agree that these are big reasons why the brawl scene wears thin, and there needs to be some form of reality check/active effort to counter-act these issues. IMO most ruleset debates/'disagreements are red-herrings for the real issues that plague the community, such as the ones quoted.

Mew2King · Apr 16, 2012

clowsui said:
???

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

RAIN and Otori are p good examples of how to beat Olimar and ICs respectively even w Japanese ruleset. 9B made quite a few mistakes as did Nietono but RAIN has probably some of the most flawless strategies vs Olimar ever. You should know this best from studying him. It doesn't really hurt that he has a positive/even record vs both the Olimars

I mean I don't really care about the ban at this point but I kinda wanted to call this out =/

yeah i know, and the fact that BROOD AND NIETONO BOTH beat + outplaced them both recently shows how good olimar really is. I keep up with japanese, and I also know nietono is like 8-1 or better vs otori, as well as the top 2 olimars good recent results vs the top 2 japanese mks

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