Link to original post: [drupal=5199]Why third party characters wont return (an antithesis)[/drupal]
When it comes to the topic of third parties in the next Smash, I find it alarming that people don't think these characters could be removed. It's not that they don't agree with this notion, but that they see it as impossible or improbable. So, I will plaay the grand Devil's Advocate and stake a claim and say
THIRD PARTIES ARE GONE
What I want to start with first is to throw out the notion that they could be gone. I think where we run into problems is that people think these characters couldn't go away. Sakurai has made pretty tight rules on third party characters only allowing one or two after Snake and forcing them to be on a Nintendo console (more about that in a minute). He has also referred to them as “guest,” characters. This may not seem like much, but it's very important. First, taken from Wikipedia: “In show business (music, TV shows, etc.), a guest appearance is a participation of an outsider performer usually called guest artist in an event I.e. the participation of a performer which does not belong to the regular crew
Kind of describes Smash huh? The notion of a guest is that they don't normally participate or don't live somewhere (i.e. someone who is visiting a home is a guest. Someone who lives there is a resident). From the DOJO: “I suppose it only makes sense that Assist Trophies associated with guest characters appear concurrently with those guest characters, doesn’t it.” He mentions this at other times on the site too. Here, you can see that he is calling them guest. Basically, they are not a part of the regular cast. They are not staple characters and he in no way has implied that, but instead implies the opposite.
Now some people will mention that Sakurai did refer to the assist trophy characters like this too. First, it does refere to other characters not in the main cast, but it also implies that the assist trophies are. They are guest. They make a smaall appearance and leave. But like Pokeballs, they may not return (like we haven't seen Beedrill in a while). The big thing is that they are guest to the main cast. It's important that Sakurai makes this distinction of the third party characters. The other 33 characters are not refereed to as such, which should tell you something about their staying. I will say this doesn't prove my argument, but I want to get the idea moving that they could not return.
Now let's move onto another subject: the real world. The limiting factor in all of this is money and legality. Copy right laws have sharp teeth and are not easy to work around. Sakurai can not say “Oh, I want to add X. OK, here we go.” Likewise, he can't just walk up to Kojima and ask for Snake. He can't do the same thing with these third party characters as he does with a Nintendo character. The company has control over the IPS, and it's their call. Remember that these companies are running a business which is trying to make money. Video games are very reliant on IPs to make money. So companies go to great lengths to protect them. They may have certain demands. Snake has to be X or Sonic can't be in without X. There is also going to be demands on the content added and what even trophies might say. Messing up could result in numerous problems and maybe even a lawsuit as you are not holding up the character in their eyes. Heck, they may even just say no. “What,” they say. “Impossible. It's free advertising. Smash is popular. People what them. WHY NOT!?” Like I said, companies are careful with these characters. The company may not want to deal with it or they may feel Nintendo wont do the character justice or that being in Smash would hurt their character. Note that this will line up with their business practice. If, say, Sega felt Sonic was paraded around too much or felt they want to do their own cross over games instead, than they would not want to add Sonic in Smash.
Even still, Nintendo may reject it. “WHAT,” they cry. Nintendo would probably give royalties to the other company that Nintendo may not want to pay Smash is already a big project so it may not make much sense to get into these large agreements for very little extra value. They may also feel that more money would be made ignoring those character and keeping those sales. With Nintendo recent operating loss, they may feel better not paying out for characters rather than use their own. “But why would they have to pay?” The other company isn't going to just give them an IP for free. There is likely to be some trading of deals or money. Nintendo is getting the rights to use another company's character. Konami and Sega may want something in return. They may also not want more cooks in the kitchen. Even after all of this, it will still take time and a lot more work to add the character and make sure the demands of the company are being met. Like I said before, the companies must protect their IP. This means more prying eyes with be in the game making sure that everything is going as they want it. They have to do the character justice, and that's justice to what the owners think. Again, it's not Nintendo's character, so they get a lot less say in what happens. This is just less control Nitnendo has over their own game. So, after jumping though legal and monetary hoops, there is still the hope of the other guy's demands. It is simply not an easy task.
So we've come a long way. I've established why they may not be in at all. But let's see what Sakurai thinks.
I'll number these quotes to keep them in track. They are also starting from earliest to latest.
E3 2006
Did Nintendo approach Konami about Snake in SSBB or vice versa? [1]
Sakurai: What brought about the Snake character, when I was developing SSBM for GC Hideo Kojima contacted me and practically begged me to put him in there, but at that time we were deep in dev and it was too late. I just kind of gave up on the idea, but now that we had time, I remembered he asked me that and we decided to put him in. This is not so much a corporate level discussion, but a personal discussion, between Mr. Kojima and I. We're looking at other possibilities for 3rd party characters. At a corporate level, there may be discussion going on right now. Snake is the only 3rd party character that has been confirmed. But that might open up other opportunities to have other characters available. Its more about having a character thats fun to be in there.
What 3rd party character would you like to see in the next version of SSB?
Sakurai: If there was such a character I would just put them in this version. Its difficult finding the right balance between these characters. I'm sure that everyone has their own opinions about what they'd like to see, so thats while I'll be gathering as much feedback from everyone. Theres a SSB web site that I've been operating in Japanese, but it will be updated in japanese and english as Smash Bros. Dojo, with the movie you've just seen, as well as the main theme.
Notice how in the quote, he is not only cool with the idea but is somewhat happy with it. A big thing you see is he has little to no objection to adding Snake or adding more characters for other companies. This is still very early into making the game. Let's keep moving.
#2 at GDC 2008
IGN: You debuted two crossover characters -- Sonic and Solid Snake -- in Brawl. Awesome additions! But we have to be honest, with all the music from different famed composers in the game, we were expecting even more character crossovers from the likes of Square and perhaps even Capcom. Any reason Brawl doesn't feature even more? (And we know -- Nintendo fans are never happy!) [2]
Masahiro Sakurai: Adding characters from other series and from other worlds, really, outside the Nintendo universe, is an incredibly difficult process. In some ways it's more difficult from just building a game from the ground up because you're really trying to make everything match and in some ways that creates limitations. I hope that people can understand that's the reason we can't include more characters from outside the Nintendo universe. And, of course, I believe that when you increase the number of worlds, you're also increasing the number of people who could potentially enjoy that videogame and the series that you're putting in there. But there are also problems because having these non-traditional characters in there -- even with just Snake and Sonic -- has resulted in a number of people who do dissent in seeing these characters put into the Smash series. It's not a simple matter of adding as many worlds and characters from other games as possible -- you can't be careless in doing that sort of thing, you have to be careful. Internally and externally, there have been people who have raised objections to it.
Now we are looking at what is going on after the game has been made. You'll notice to where, before, he had no negativity about the addition, now he is showing negativism. In fact, most of his answer dealt with the disadvantages of doing it. He only mentioned that more people could enjoy the game as a high note. Of course, right after, he goes right back into the negatives of it. A big thing to note outside of this change of tone is he is point out how difficult the process is. He mentions that getting it all work is hard. He also made a mention about how people who “dissent,” these inclusions and that both internally (like Nintendo perhaps?) and externally there have been problems. This points to that there was differently real opposition to the idea. The big take away here is the huge change in tone over including these characters from our last quote.
But let's move forward.
#3 from E3 2011
During IGN's interview with Masahiro Sakurai, the legendary designer behind the Super Smash Bros. titles and the inventor of Kirby, we asked him about the possibility of a Capcom character crossing over into the next Super Smash Bros., which is coming to both 3DS and Wii U. Here's what he had to say: [3]
"I can't say that it's entirely out of the realm of possibility that some Capcom character could appear in the next Smash Bros. The big problem, though, comes from the idea of trying to get characters from a completely different universe to fit with the style that has been dictated by Nintendo's characters in a fighting game.
"In fact, I actually think it's a miracle that we got Smash Bros. and all the Nintendo characters to work together in the first place. Especially when you bring Pokemon into the mix and a lot of the complications that are caused by that being an almost completely different entity on its own, it's really something. So this is something that obviously will come up more as we get started on the new Smash Bros. development, but keeping those things in mind I think is important."
It may not be obvious at first, but notice how his tone has changed. Where in #2 he mentioned some good, here is pretty much saying no. How so? Take a look at the first line. “ I can't say that it's entirely out of the realm of possibility” People will see this as it's possible. What he is saying is it's not impossible. He's giving you negative assurance. Basically, it's very weak and isn't a strong determinate. Even afterward, he moves topics quickly into how it's hard to add them. This time he also calls it a “ completely different universe that has been dictated by Nintendo's characters in a fighting game” Before he said that the characters were just outside of Nintendo. Now he clearly says it's a Nintendo fighting game.
Though all three, he is less confident and sure about adding those characters. In the first quote, he isn't negative about it at all. He thinks highly of it even. In the second one, he is focusing on the negative aspects of it all. This is very different than #1. In the last one, he almost rejects it and quickly focuses on why it really can't work. As you can see, he's not really as cool with it as people think he is. His thinking on it has shifted focus since after Brawl has been released.
But let's talk about a big reason I there Sakurai's change of heart happened. Snake! “What,” they cry. “How did Snake not work?” First, Snake is a character from a totally different type of game than what Nintendo makes. Nintendo doesn't make games like Metal Gear Solid. So Snake is going to stick out. First, Sakurai said Snake would not have guns or knives. Unfortunately, this is mostly what he uses. So right off the bat he is restricted in what he could do. Also, as development went on, there were a few problems. People may have missed these, but take a look at the pictures.
Before
After
Notice the changes. As far as the landmine went, a leaker (who was proven to be right) said the reason for the change was that there were complaints, so it was given more of a futuristic look. Snake's choke hold also looks to be changed, but it may also be different from character to character. It may be hard to find originals, but if you go to Snake's character page on the Dojo, you can see how he does the hold. Compare this to the video and see how he grabs Mario. It's hard to tell, but it defiantly looks like more of a chocking and holding the characters around the neck. But there was some toning down of Snake.
Now, this is theorycrafting, so take it with a grain of salt. Ever wonder why Snake's range is ******** on his forward and up strong? The reason may be the same. Most characters in Smash compensate for short limbs by growing parts of their body. Wario is the most notable as he has very stubby limbs. Snake, however, can't do this. So in order to make his attacks work, something else had to be done. It may seem strange, but notice how he has the worst invisible hit boxes of any characters. A lot of characters have slight ones on the end of their attacks. None of them even come close to Snake's range. This may have been a likely change to make Snake's range be in line with the rest of the cast. If you also notice, the actual extension of his arms is shrot. If the hitbox was the range of his arms, than the attack might have been useless as it was too short. The same is true for his up strong. His legs goes straight up, but it has a large hitbox in front. If his leg was just going up, than the attack would have no range, making it useless. The added range is to compensate for his actual model range which can't extend the attack like the other characters. You can see that, for his up strong, that the hit box does match his motion. But his leg can't extend that way, so the game compensates for this. Some characters who don't extend their limbs can still hit, but usually with different moves (like Captain Falcon's forward strong). The question becomes was it the design team that wanted Snake to do this move (perhaps feeling it fit his fighting style better) or Konami having their hands in it.
Snake is very much a problem with design. Sonic, on the other hand, is a problem of time. Sakurai has gone on record that all of the characters, except for Sonic, were planned to be in this game from 2005 (or 2006 depending on your source).
"The decision to include Sonic was not made until 2007," Sakurai noted.
http://www.destructoid.com/gdc-08-ma...nt-71767.phtml
As he says, it was not done until later. He could mean the team decided to add him at that point or that he couldn't get in until that point. If the former, it comes into question the design behind him. It may have been Sakurai or the team felt they shouldn't add more third party characters, or it could have been that to do so would hinder the project. If the latter, it shows the mess that the law can put into place as well as the agreement phase. Sakurai has a lot of control, but he is still bound by the whims of the companies involved. Like I said before, the real world binds him. He can't walk into Sega and ask for Sonic. It has to go through a lot of executives and lawyers. To us, it seems like a no brainier to add them, but these are executives that are dealing with a lot of goodwill that the series have built up and maintaining their million dollar series.
Either way you cut it, the big picture is that Sonic was not part of the plan. This may not seem like anything, but when you are assembling staff and making a big project, you have to have a good plan. Most IT projects go over budget due to poor planning. Costing is also going to be based on a time line to complete the game. Adding something in late into the game can cause a lot of problems. There is evidence on the disc that Mewtwo was decently far along having a classic screen, attack effects and sounds. Roy may also have been far along. This is one example of content that had to be cut. Also, the release date was moved back until the end of January, bumping the game out of the holiday season. Basically, trying to add a character outside of schedule causes a lot of problems. Extending the time of game development, including the cost, is a big problem. While it may have been a nightmare if Sonic was left out, it is still a big headache in a lot of areas.
One big thing I'm trying to get here is that there is a lot of different people involved in any project. Here, you have your set design staff and their plan. The executives are somewhat involved in overseeing everything. You also have someone like Sakurai, who is pulling the strings in regard to this project. You have accounting dealing with the costing and allocating cost for their financial statements. You have marketing trying to promote this game. You have HR hiring and orienting new staff. While this is mostly because of the mercenary-like staff, it is a reality in any large project when needing outside work. For a project like Smash, you have a lot of different IPs. So you need your legal team ready to go. Now you are adding third party characters into the mix. Since there are no in anyway owned by Nintendo, your lawyer will have to work overtime. There may be some money involved in this agreement, so now the accountants must deal with the extra transactions. The executives will also be negotiating the deal with the other company,. Since we have a character from outside the company, other eyes will be prying on the game to make sure we are doing our character justice. This means more caution must be taken by Sakurai. This is all on top of an already big project.
I want to finish this long endeavor with one last point and one many people will miss. With a cross over game, there is a lot of organization that has to go into it. Games are all about worlds. When I take a game series like Super Mario, it has certain rules. It needs a certain look. It can and can not have certain elements. A very heavy fantasy game needs to adhere to it's rules. It can't have robots in it. It may not always be clear, but the series needs to adhere to certain rules less chaos for disorganization ensues. For cross-over games, it's different. They need to be organized by who gets in. If not, your game quickly becomes MUGEN. This is defense against the cluster ****. Smash has done this by being all about Nintendo. It's organization is Nintendo and their characters. But with third parties, we have a cross road. Guest characters in a game can be fine, but in small doses. Snake, by himself, is a cool addition. He's a surprise. Sonic can also scrap by by being one of the most demanded character ever. But now some people want to add every other character under the sun. Already, Sakurai has set some boundaries by limiting the max number of third parties (which he was still under) and making sure they are video game related (which is maintaining some level of organization). Third party characters in Nitnendo is transformers in Lord of the Rings. Maybe it's cool, but quickly makes no sense and turns people off. Maybe an extreme example, but it gets the point across. As fun as it would be to have Megaman, Viewtiful Joe, Pacman, and Simon, it would end up being too much disorganization and make it all fall apart.
Let me say it a different ay real quick thing about frosting. Frosting is good, but you don’t eat just frosting. You put it on cake. It give the cake a little something more. It acents it. But eating just frosting? It's disgusting. Someone will say “But I eat frosting. Frosting is tasty.” Yeah, but consider how much of it you actually eat. Do you get a jar of the stuff and go at it. No. You get it to make cakes or cupcakes with and eat that. You may have some, but not just it. This is the same thing. A little something different is nice, but not all the time and not all at once. Third parties are nice in small numbers and I think brawl did well with it. But having 1 or 2 more is differently pushing it. I couldn't imaging the game with the sheer number of third parties others are suggesting.
Not good enough. All right. I'll have Plinkett describe it instead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blkx6axytKQ
He's talking about Starwars and the light saber in this one, but he mentions the same thing I did here. The point is the light saber is cool because it's not over used. When Luke takes out his light saber things are about to get real. The same applies to third party characters. Snake was cool because he was different. He was something unique, This is also why Smash tends to have both popular and obscure characters in every game. But having too much of one or the other becomes boring. Third parties are cool because they are different and unique. But adding more and more will just get dull. A lot of people want Megaman, but his inclusion will be met with less enthusiasm than Sonic or Snake because we've seen it before. If you want to know more about this, check out something called the "Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility" It's basically that the more we have something, the less we like it each time.
So I hope I can see my side of the argument. To many people, there seems to be no reason to have no third parties or to remove the ones we have. But I hope I can show you there are a lot of factors at play. I hope you have enjoyed reading this. As always, think for yourself and make your own conclusion. I just hope I have given you another prospective.
When it comes to the topic of third parties in the next Smash, I find it alarming that people don't think these characters could be removed. It's not that they don't agree with this notion, but that they see it as impossible or improbable. So, I will plaay the grand Devil's Advocate and stake a claim and say
THIRD PARTIES ARE GONE
What I want to start with first is to throw out the notion that they could be gone. I think where we run into problems is that people think these characters couldn't go away. Sakurai has made pretty tight rules on third party characters only allowing one or two after Snake and forcing them to be on a Nintendo console (more about that in a minute). He has also referred to them as “guest,” characters. This may not seem like much, but it's very important. First, taken from Wikipedia: “In show business (music, TV shows, etc.), a guest appearance is a participation of an outsider performer usually called guest artist in an event I.e. the participation of a performer which does not belong to the regular crew
Kind of describes Smash huh? The notion of a guest is that they don't normally participate or don't live somewhere (i.e. someone who is visiting a home is a guest. Someone who lives there is a resident). From the DOJO: “I suppose it only makes sense that Assist Trophies associated with guest characters appear concurrently with those guest characters, doesn’t it.” He mentions this at other times on the site too. Here, you can see that he is calling them guest. Basically, they are not a part of the regular cast. They are not staple characters and he in no way has implied that, but instead implies the opposite.
Now some people will mention that Sakurai did refer to the assist trophy characters like this too. First, it does refere to other characters not in the main cast, but it also implies that the assist trophies are. They are guest. They make a smaall appearance and leave. But like Pokeballs, they may not return (like we haven't seen Beedrill in a while). The big thing is that they are guest to the main cast. It's important that Sakurai makes this distinction of the third party characters. The other 33 characters are not refereed to as such, which should tell you something about their staying. I will say this doesn't prove my argument, but I want to get the idea moving that they could not return.
Now let's move onto another subject: the real world. The limiting factor in all of this is money and legality. Copy right laws have sharp teeth and are not easy to work around. Sakurai can not say “Oh, I want to add X. OK, here we go.” Likewise, he can't just walk up to Kojima and ask for Snake. He can't do the same thing with these third party characters as he does with a Nintendo character. The company has control over the IPS, and it's their call. Remember that these companies are running a business which is trying to make money. Video games are very reliant on IPs to make money. So companies go to great lengths to protect them. They may have certain demands. Snake has to be X or Sonic can't be in without X. There is also going to be demands on the content added and what even trophies might say. Messing up could result in numerous problems and maybe even a lawsuit as you are not holding up the character in their eyes. Heck, they may even just say no. “What,” they say. “Impossible. It's free advertising. Smash is popular. People what them. WHY NOT!?” Like I said, companies are careful with these characters. The company may not want to deal with it or they may feel Nintendo wont do the character justice or that being in Smash would hurt their character. Note that this will line up with their business practice. If, say, Sega felt Sonic was paraded around too much or felt they want to do their own cross over games instead, than they would not want to add Sonic in Smash.
Even still, Nintendo may reject it. “WHAT,” they cry. Nintendo would probably give royalties to the other company that Nintendo may not want to pay Smash is already a big project so it may not make much sense to get into these large agreements for very little extra value. They may also feel that more money would be made ignoring those character and keeping those sales. With Nintendo recent operating loss, they may feel better not paying out for characters rather than use their own. “But why would they have to pay?” The other company isn't going to just give them an IP for free. There is likely to be some trading of deals or money. Nintendo is getting the rights to use another company's character. Konami and Sega may want something in return. They may also not want more cooks in the kitchen. Even after all of this, it will still take time and a lot more work to add the character and make sure the demands of the company are being met. Like I said before, the companies must protect their IP. This means more prying eyes with be in the game making sure that everything is going as they want it. They have to do the character justice, and that's justice to what the owners think. Again, it's not Nintendo's character, so they get a lot less say in what happens. This is just less control Nitnendo has over their own game. So, after jumping though legal and monetary hoops, there is still the hope of the other guy's demands. It is simply not an easy task.
So we've come a long way. I've established why they may not be in at all. But let's see what Sakurai thinks.
I'll number these quotes to keep them in track. They are also starting from earliest to latest.
E3 2006
Did Nintendo approach Konami about Snake in SSBB or vice versa? [1]
Sakurai: What brought about the Snake character, when I was developing SSBM for GC Hideo Kojima contacted me and practically begged me to put him in there, but at that time we were deep in dev and it was too late. I just kind of gave up on the idea, but now that we had time, I remembered he asked me that and we decided to put him in. This is not so much a corporate level discussion, but a personal discussion, between Mr. Kojima and I. We're looking at other possibilities for 3rd party characters. At a corporate level, there may be discussion going on right now. Snake is the only 3rd party character that has been confirmed. But that might open up other opportunities to have other characters available. Its more about having a character thats fun to be in there.
What 3rd party character would you like to see in the next version of SSB?
Sakurai: If there was such a character I would just put them in this version. Its difficult finding the right balance between these characters. I'm sure that everyone has their own opinions about what they'd like to see, so thats while I'll be gathering as much feedback from everyone. Theres a SSB web site that I've been operating in Japanese, but it will be updated in japanese and english as Smash Bros. Dojo, with the movie you've just seen, as well as the main theme.
Notice how in the quote, he is not only cool with the idea but is somewhat happy with it. A big thing you see is he has little to no objection to adding Snake or adding more characters for other companies. This is still very early into making the game. Let's keep moving.
#2 at GDC 2008
IGN: You debuted two crossover characters -- Sonic and Solid Snake -- in Brawl. Awesome additions! But we have to be honest, with all the music from different famed composers in the game, we were expecting even more character crossovers from the likes of Square and perhaps even Capcom. Any reason Brawl doesn't feature even more? (And we know -- Nintendo fans are never happy!) [2]
Masahiro Sakurai: Adding characters from other series and from other worlds, really, outside the Nintendo universe, is an incredibly difficult process. In some ways it's more difficult from just building a game from the ground up because you're really trying to make everything match and in some ways that creates limitations. I hope that people can understand that's the reason we can't include more characters from outside the Nintendo universe. And, of course, I believe that when you increase the number of worlds, you're also increasing the number of people who could potentially enjoy that videogame and the series that you're putting in there. But there are also problems because having these non-traditional characters in there -- even with just Snake and Sonic -- has resulted in a number of people who do dissent in seeing these characters put into the Smash series. It's not a simple matter of adding as many worlds and characters from other games as possible -- you can't be careless in doing that sort of thing, you have to be careful. Internally and externally, there have been people who have raised objections to it.
Now we are looking at what is going on after the game has been made. You'll notice to where, before, he had no negativity about the addition, now he is showing negativism. In fact, most of his answer dealt with the disadvantages of doing it. He only mentioned that more people could enjoy the game as a high note. Of course, right after, he goes right back into the negatives of it. A big thing to note outside of this change of tone is he is point out how difficult the process is. He mentions that getting it all work is hard. He also made a mention about how people who “dissent,” these inclusions and that both internally (like Nintendo perhaps?) and externally there have been problems. This points to that there was differently real opposition to the idea. The big take away here is the huge change in tone over including these characters from our last quote.
But let's move forward.
#3 from E3 2011
During IGN's interview with Masahiro Sakurai, the legendary designer behind the Super Smash Bros. titles and the inventor of Kirby, we asked him about the possibility of a Capcom character crossing over into the next Super Smash Bros., which is coming to both 3DS and Wii U. Here's what he had to say: [3]
"I can't say that it's entirely out of the realm of possibility that some Capcom character could appear in the next Smash Bros. The big problem, though, comes from the idea of trying to get characters from a completely different universe to fit with the style that has been dictated by Nintendo's characters in a fighting game.
"In fact, I actually think it's a miracle that we got Smash Bros. and all the Nintendo characters to work together in the first place. Especially when you bring Pokemon into the mix and a lot of the complications that are caused by that being an almost completely different entity on its own, it's really something. So this is something that obviously will come up more as we get started on the new Smash Bros. development, but keeping those things in mind I think is important."
It may not be obvious at first, but notice how his tone has changed. Where in #2 he mentioned some good, here is pretty much saying no. How so? Take a look at the first line. “ I can't say that it's entirely out of the realm of possibility” People will see this as it's possible. What he is saying is it's not impossible. He's giving you negative assurance. Basically, it's very weak and isn't a strong determinate. Even afterward, he moves topics quickly into how it's hard to add them. This time he also calls it a “ completely different universe that has been dictated by Nintendo's characters in a fighting game” Before he said that the characters were just outside of Nintendo. Now he clearly says it's a Nintendo fighting game.
Though all three, he is less confident and sure about adding those characters. In the first quote, he isn't negative about it at all. He thinks highly of it even. In the second one, he is focusing on the negative aspects of it all. This is very different than #1. In the last one, he almost rejects it and quickly focuses on why it really can't work. As you can see, he's not really as cool with it as people think he is. His thinking on it has shifted focus since after Brawl has been released.
But let's talk about a big reason I there Sakurai's change of heart happened. Snake! “What,” they cry. “How did Snake not work?” First, Snake is a character from a totally different type of game than what Nintendo makes. Nintendo doesn't make games like Metal Gear Solid. So Snake is going to stick out. First, Sakurai said Snake would not have guns or knives. Unfortunately, this is mostly what he uses. So right off the bat he is restricted in what he could do. Also, as development went on, there were a few problems. People may have missed these, but take a look at the pictures.
Before
After
Notice the changes. As far as the landmine went, a leaker (who was proven to be right) said the reason for the change was that there were complaints, so it was given more of a futuristic look. Snake's choke hold also looks to be changed, but it may also be different from character to character. It may be hard to find originals, but if you go to Snake's character page on the Dojo, you can see how he does the hold. Compare this to the video and see how he grabs Mario. It's hard to tell, but it defiantly looks like more of a chocking and holding the characters around the neck. But there was some toning down of Snake.
Now, this is theorycrafting, so take it with a grain of salt. Ever wonder why Snake's range is ******** on his forward and up strong? The reason may be the same. Most characters in Smash compensate for short limbs by growing parts of their body. Wario is the most notable as he has very stubby limbs. Snake, however, can't do this. So in order to make his attacks work, something else had to be done. It may seem strange, but notice how he has the worst invisible hit boxes of any characters. A lot of characters have slight ones on the end of their attacks. None of them even come close to Snake's range. This may have been a likely change to make Snake's range be in line with the rest of the cast. If you also notice, the actual extension of his arms is shrot. If the hitbox was the range of his arms, than the attack might have been useless as it was too short. The same is true for his up strong. His legs goes straight up, but it has a large hitbox in front. If his leg was just going up, than the attack would have no range, making it useless. The added range is to compensate for his actual model range which can't extend the attack like the other characters. You can see that, for his up strong, that the hit box does match his motion. But his leg can't extend that way, so the game compensates for this. Some characters who don't extend their limbs can still hit, but usually with different moves (like Captain Falcon's forward strong). The question becomes was it the design team that wanted Snake to do this move (perhaps feeling it fit his fighting style better) or Konami having their hands in it.
Snake is very much a problem with design. Sonic, on the other hand, is a problem of time. Sakurai has gone on record that all of the characters, except for Sonic, were planned to be in this game from 2005 (or 2006 depending on your source).
"The decision to include Sonic was not made until 2007," Sakurai noted.
http://www.destructoid.com/gdc-08-ma...nt-71767.phtml
As he says, it was not done until later. He could mean the team decided to add him at that point or that he couldn't get in until that point. If the former, it comes into question the design behind him. It may have been Sakurai or the team felt they shouldn't add more third party characters, or it could have been that to do so would hinder the project. If the latter, it shows the mess that the law can put into place as well as the agreement phase. Sakurai has a lot of control, but he is still bound by the whims of the companies involved. Like I said before, the real world binds him. He can't walk into Sega and ask for Sonic. It has to go through a lot of executives and lawyers. To us, it seems like a no brainier to add them, but these are executives that are dealing with a lot of goodwill that the series have built up and maintaining their million dollar series.
Either way you cut it, the big picture is that Sonic was not part of the plan. This may not seem like anything, but when you are assembling staff and making a big project, you have to have a good plan. Most IT projects go over budget due to poor planning. Costing is also going to be based on a time line to complete the game. Adding something in late into the game can cause a lot of problems. There is evidence on the disc that Mewtwo was decently far along having a classic screen, attack effects and sounds. Roy may also have been far along. This is one example of content that had to be cut. Also, the release date was moved back until the end of January, bumping the game out of the holiday season. Basically, trying to add a character outside of schedule causes a lot of problems. Extending the time of game development, including the cost, is a big problem. While it may have been a nightmare if Sonic was left out, it is still a big headache in a lot of areas.
One big thing I'm trying to get here is that there is a lot of different people involved in any project. Here, you have your set design staff and their plan. The executives are somewhat involved in overseeing everything. You also have someone like Sakurai, who is pulling the strings in regard to this project. You have accounting dealing with the costing and allocating cost for their financial statements. You have marketing trying to promote this game. You have HR hiring and orienting new staff. While this is mostly because of the mercenary-like staff, it is a reality in any large project when needing outside work. For a project like Smash, you have a lot of different IPs. So you need your legal team ready to go. Now you are adding third party characters into the mix. Since there are no in anyway owned by Nintendo, your lawyer will have to work overtime. There may be some money involved in this agreement, so now the accountants must deal with the extra transactions. The executives will also be negotiating the deal with the other company,. Since we have a character from outside the company, other eyes will be prying on the game to make sure we are doing our character justice. This means more caution must be taken by Sakurai. This is all on top of an already big project.
I want to finish this long endeavor with one last point and one many people will miss. With a cross over game, there is a lot of organization that has to go into it. Games are all about worlds. When I take a game series like Super Mario, it has certain rules. It needs a certain look. It can and can not have certain elements. A very heavy fantasy game needs to adhere to it's rules. It can't have robots in it. It may not always be clear, but the series needs to adhere to certain rules less chaos for disorganization ensues. For cross-over games, it's different. They need to be organized by who gets in. If not, your game quickly becomes MUGEN. This is defense against the cluster ****. Smash has done this by being all about Nintendo. It's organization is Nintendo and their characters. But with third parties, we have a cross road. Guest characters in a game can be fine, but in small doses. Snake, by himself, is a cool addition. He's a surprise. Sonic can also scrap by by being one of the most demanded character ever. But now some people want to add every other character under the sun. Already, Sakurai has set some boundaries by limiting the max number of third parties (which he was still under) and making sure they are video game related (which is maintaining some level of organization). Third party characters in Nitnendo is transformers in Lord of the Rings. Maybe it's cool, but quickly makes no sense and turns people off. Maybe an extreme example, but it gets the point across. As fun as it would be to have Megaman, Viewtiful Joe, Pacman, and Simon, it would end up being too much disorganization and make it all fall apart.
Let me say it a different ay real quick thing about frosting. Frosting is good, but you don’t eat just frosting. You put it on cake. It give the cake a little something more. It acents it. But eating just frosting? It's disgusting. Someone will say “But I eat frosting. Frosting is tasty.” Yeah, but consider how much of it you actually eat. Do you get a jar of the stuff and go at it. No. You get it to make cakes or cupcakes with and eat that. You may have some, but not just it. This is the same thing. A little something different is nice, but not all the time and not all at once. Third parties are nice in small numbers and I think brawl did well with it. But having 1 or 2 more is differently pushing it. I couldn't imaging the game with the sheer number of third parties others are suggesting.
Not good enough. All right. I'll have Plinkett describe it instead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blkx6axytKQ
He's talking about Starwars and the light saber in this one, but he mentions the same thing I did here. The point is the light saber is cool because it's not over used. When Luke takes out his light saber things are about to get real. The same applies to third party characters. Snake was cool because he was different. He was something unique, This is also why Smash tends to have both popular and obscure characters in every game. But having too much of one or the other becomes boring. Third parties are cool because they are different and unique. But adding more and more will just get dull. A lot of people want Megaman, but his inclusion will be met with less enthusiasm than Sonic or Snake because we've seen it before. If you want to know more about this, check out something called the "Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility" It's basically that the more we have something, the less we like it each time.
So I hope I can see my side of the argument. To many people, there seems to be no reason to have no third parties or to remove the ones we have. But I hope I can show you there are a lot of factors at play. I hope you have enjoyed reading this. As always, think for yourself and make your own conclusion. I just hope I have given you another prospective.
