New Rule Pertaining To MK / Rainbow Cruise + Brinstar (?)

z00ted · Jun 18, 2012

Sync and I have been collaborating over AIM about what to do with the Metaknight situation down here in Texas.. because it's quite apparent that he's no longer being banned on a national level any time soon unanimously.

We have created two new rules:

In the event the stages Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar are chosen as the counter pick stage during a tournament set, the loser of the previous game (i.e. the counter picking party) may NOT choose Metaknight as their character to be played on those stages; meaning the counter picking party must choose another character to play on those stages.

The winner of the previous game (the party being counter picked) may not use Metaknight if counter picked to Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar unless the party won the previous game with Metaknight.

I really want feedback/thoughts from the community about this.
Houston will be experimenting this rule at it's new local series: ASCENSION.

With this rule implemented, Metaknight can no longer counterpick his opponent to Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar (his most beneficial stages) and the MK player can't be counterpicked there in an attempt to switch him off of his main (MK).

I feel as though this solves the problem of completely removing Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar without nerfing characters that actually gain a buff from them being kept in a ruleset (i.e. Peach, Wario, Kirby, etc) and it allows them to nerf higher tiered characters (Diddy, Falco, ICs, Snake, Olimar) who will always have their FD/Halberd/PS1 counterpicking options (because these three stages will likely never be banned on a competitive level).

It allows for a more diverse stagelist, without giving the already best character in the game practically an entirely free win. If you're a fan of the Japanese ruleset and hate Metaknight because of it's removal of Brinstar/RC, this could interest you. If you're a Metaknight main that doesn't mind the Japanese ruleset because it has kept your character legal, this will slightly help you due to more experimentation of a more diverse stagelist (Delfino, Halberd, Frigate, etc).

There are already MK specific rules in place in an attempt to nerf Metaknight without banning him such as LGLs being reduced from 35 to 30, so the claim of "catering to MK" is validated, but obviously needed so he's not polarizing the entire metagame.

Hardcore Pro-ban players may complain about MK being the problem, not the stagelist or ruleset. While I agree, there may not be much we can do about it at this point considering his sudden shift back into a normal tournament setting. This rule at least helps alleviate the problem that is MK and Brinstar/RC.

Zanx8 · Jun 18, 2012

This seems like an interesting rule. I'd want it to be used at tournaments because it'll make things better with the stages legal.

Sync. · Jun 18, 2012

I love this idea and am happy about testing it at my next tournament!

Xyro77 · Jun 18, 2012

this idea is not new.

i remember talking about it back in the bbr a few years back. it never got anywhere though.

it does nothing to solve the mk problem. they will still timeout/scrooge and abuse those few LGs they have left to win a game. and thats on ALL stages. rc/brinstar being banned does nothing to help the rest of the cast.,

the problem is mk. ban him and all is well. stop changing this game to keep mk legal.

UltiMario · Jun 18, 2012

I know something very similar to this was brought up before. It met with very sour reaction, I recall a lot of stuff like "They're not great stages to begin with, just ban one altogether so a player can just ban the remaining stage from being counterpicked" and such. Not to mention pro banners were drooling over it.

It's been quite a while since then though (2 years, maybe?). Let's see how people react to this now.

z00ted · Jun 18, 2012

People talked about banning MK a few years back, too.
Nothing happened until recently, the same could be applied for this.

I'm hoping this rule will be implemented across the board in USA/Canada if Metaknight is legal for a healthier/less polarizing competitive environment.

I've personally never seen any about this up to now. I've had the rule in my head for quite some while without ever really saying anything because I never thought the idea of banning MK was even something that could be pushed forward to begin with. Glad to know that it's at least been considered before, though. Hopefully we'll now see some different feedback and reactions from the public.

Dcold · Jun 18, 2012

I can duck with this. Nice one Ill and Sync.

Xyro77 · Jun 18, 2012

Illmatic. said:
I'm this rule will be implemented across the board in USA/Canada if Metaknight is legal for a healthier/less polarizing competitive environment.

healthier/less polarizing competitive environment? this trash does the opposite. you are taking away stages and adding MORE rules to mk.

z00ted · Jun 18, 2012

Xyro77 said:
healthier/less polarizing competitive environment? this trash does the opposite. you are taking away stages and adding MORE rules to mk.

You may be mis-reading the rule.
It only takes away the stages for

on his counterpick.

The rule still keeps Brinstar/Rainbow Cruise outside of any tournament set not involving MK.

Player-1 · Jun 18, 2012

well first of mk shouldn't be legal

second off brinstar shouldn't be legal

if brinstar isn't legal then you can just ban RC so not really a problem unless you're just afraid of pocket MKs or something which is then a fair argument i guess

in the event that MK is legal and RC and Brinstar are also both legal then sure this rule could help balance that, but veering away from the mk should be banned argument, brinstar should be banned. It's a bad competitive stage anyway, no tournament should have this legal whether mk is banned or not, and ya i though that this rule was a good idea also back when i thought brinstar should be legal, but it shouldn't so ya.

Cassio · Jun 18, 2012

Keep in mind some people simply dont like RC/Brinstar. Youll have to convince these people another way. And as always Im not the biggest fan of static rulesets.

Excluding that, the only criticism I have is that this is more therapeutic than result based. Thats not necessarily a bad thing if people view this as an acceptable solution theyre willing to implement, but in terms of results I believe overswarm did some data mining and found that the most polarizing stage for MK after Brinstar was Delfino, and Rainbow Cruise tied with Halberd.

z00ted · Jun 18, 2012

Player-1 said:
well first of mk shouldn't be legal

second off brinstar shouldn't be legal

if brinstar isn't legal then you can just ban RC so not really a problem unless you're just afraid of pocket MKs or something which is then a fair argument i guess

in the event that MK is legal and RC and Brinstar are also both legal then sure this rule could help balance that, but veering away from the mk should be banned argument, brinstar should be banned. It's a bad competitive stage anyway, no tournament should have this legal whether mk is banned or not, and ya i though that this rule was a good idea also back when i thought brinstar should be legal, but it shouldn't so ya.

We've had Brinstar / Rainbow Cruise legal for practically ever and no one has really complained about it up to this point other than high tier mains who already have enough counterpicks to benefit from.

That's just like me saying Final Desination/Halberd are too polarizing and we should ban it forever (keeping Smashville/PS1).

This rule solves all those problems.

Cassio said:
Keep in mind some people simply dont like RC/Brinstar. Youll have to convince these people another way. And as always Im not the biggest fan of static rulesets.

Excluding that, the only criticism I have is that this is more therapeutic than result based. Thats not necessarily a bad thing if people view this as an acceptable solution theyre willing to implement, but in terms of results I believe overswarm did some data mining and found that the most polarizing stage for MK after Brinstar was Delfino, and Rainbow Cruise tied with Halberd.

Yeah, those people are usually the higher tiered characters. My argument towards that is basically what I just said to Player-1.

As far as Halberd/Delfino are concerned, we can always experiment with stagelists to see what will bring forth the best results/data. Frigate Orpheon is also thrown in the mix with those stages. Much better than all of those + Rainbow/Brinstar.

Player-1 · Jun 18, 2012

Rainbow Cruise is perfectly fine.

Final Destination only has one quality that is bad for (too polarizing)

Brinstar has lot's of qualities that are bad (random stage hazards, polarizing, etc.)

Halberd is pretty iffy on legalization.

RC/Brinstar have been complained about for A LONG time, so idk where you got that it hadn't been complained about until recently.

z00ted · Jun 18, 2012

Brinstar is not random, read up on it - runs on a timer.

The only characters who would likely counterpick a character to Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar are mid tiers + Wario or Pikachu.

Think Brinstar is too polarizing? Ban it. Now proceed to face a matchup on Rainbow Cruise that is definitely winnable under said circumstances instead of something practically unwinnable (Metaknight).

Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar have been complained about for a long time, but not much has been done about rulesets pertaining to them until recent (due to Japanese/MK controversy).

Like I said, it's something that has been suggested for experimentation.
Really suggest not knocking this until you try it.

Player-1 · Jun 18, 2012

yes it is.

Cassio · Jun 18, 2012

I guess I wasnt clear, but what I meant was I dont really think Rainbow Cruise is so bad itd need an MK specific rule based on what we know, and the rule would be better suited to Delfino Plaza in terms assisting results. But since the community frequently joins Brinstar/RC/MK at the hip it might be best in terms of implementation.

z00ted · Jun 18, 2012

RC is far worse than Delfino, in my opinion.

Player-1 · Jun 18, 2012

at least RC isn't random.

Sync. · Jun 18, 2012

Thanks! I hope it gets used more. I'll ask for feed back at my tournament and let everyone know how my scene likes it.

Also P1, Brinstar isn't random. It's a good stage for aerial characters. It's what a counterpick is.

Laem · Jun 18, 2012

It's far from new, but still liking it. The problem is that you add specific, arbitrary rules to a character, which means he's unfit for competitive play and should be removed entirely. Constructivist vs originalist, all that crap again. Personally I'd say that since MK + B/RC is an exceptionally known, notorious combination, such a rule is justified. Seeing as you apparently do have an 'MK situation' in Texas, it is warranted as well. Unless of course by that you mean there's no unanimity over the ban, and not actually people 'abusing' the rules, cuz in that case this rule is just pointless and unnecessary and you should probably think about other things to do.

Player-1 · Jun 18, 2012

Brinstar is random, prove me wrong.

Laem · Jun 18, 2012

Player-1 said:
Brinstar is random, prove me wrong.

1. You are a frog;
2. Frogs are always wrong;
3. You are wrong.

Player-1 · Jun 18, 2012

you are right.

therefore since since i'm always wrong, you are wrong. Contradiction.

z00ted · Jun 18, 2012

Please not here...

infiniteV115 · Jun 18, 2012

Brinstar is slightly random in both timing and height of the lava but it is nothing drastic and overall the stage is still very, very predictable.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278839
I know the pattern of the stage for like the first 4 minutes because I played adventure mode in Melee a LOT as a kid, and that was years ago (I was probably 8-10 at the time and played casually) and I can still remember. So if you can't learn the stage at this age then you're just bad.

Player-1 · Jun 18, 2012

thread's title is very misleading.

slightly random=random

brinstar is a bad competitive stage, ban brinstar

Dojo · Jun 18, 2012

Not a completely new idea, it just never picked up despite being interesting. Try it out and see how it works. Doesn't hurt anything.

Btw Ill, stop arguing with Xyro about it. Let him say his piece and be done with it. You'll never win. And that's coming from me... lmao.

etecoon · Jun 18, 2012

I don't like it, people -should- have to worry about their opponent going MK if they want to go to a gimmick stage like brinstar. Of course it'd be simpler to just not allow brinstar to begin with, but no one in this community wants to hear that(half of you still want green greens and pictochat back...)

z00ted · Jun 18, 2012

Why should they have to worry about something that's practically unwinnable?
Why not worry about Wario/GW/Peach/ROB/Kirby/Pit instead?

Never really understood that argument at all.

Dojo · Jun 18, 2012

Was just an argument to strengthen proban way back when.

Luxord · Jun 18, 2012

Disagree with Brinstar being on that list. I'd do Delfino/RC over RC/Brinstar. Why is Brinstar legal again?
Just get rid of Brinstar to begin with. Then people can ban RC and they jut have Delfino + Frigate then. They can manage with that.

MEOW1337KITTEH · Jun 18, 2012

Brinstar is a bad stage, but Halberd is worse IMO. By having both of them legal, it is easier to counterpick for character like GnW.

Example with Brinstar banned: Lets say I only use GnW I strike to Smashville (of course) and win game 1. I ban FD and get CP'd to any of the like.. 6 stages that favor the ground and lose. They ban RC and I lose my only effective counterpick. I go to Frigate, a stage far below the other two in terms of counterpicking and I lose.

I think that this is a great idea, the only problem is that it is making an exception to one character on two stages, which is a bit too specific. I don't personally have a problem with that, but a lot of people do.

My favorite solution is to completely revamp the stage list to make it unbiased as much as possible. Some of the best things in this world were once radical ideas.

infiniteV115 · Jun 18, 2012

There's nothing wrong with Brinstar/RC other than the fact that MK is ridiculously strong there.

MEOW1337KITTEH · Jun 18, 2012

The only bad part is the lava that interrupts and can save people. Even though it isn't random and can be easily avoided, it is still a down point.

BSP · Jun 18, 2012

Yoshi's can do both of those too, although it can't directly put % on you.

z00ted · Jun 18, 2012

MEOW1337KITTEH said:
The only bad part is the lava that interrupts and can save people. Even though it isn't random and can be easily avoided, it is still a down point.

Nah, just avoid it.
Brinstar isn't worthy of being bannable (unless you take MK's polarization into consideration).

BSP said:
Yoshi's can do both of those too, although it can't directly put % on you.

Exactly.

I really question why people attempt to ban Brinstar, yet they want to keep Yoshi's Island legal. Yoshi's has a platform that tilts randomly, shy guys fly in randomly (extend hitboxes, refreshes moves, block projectiles), a platform that can save people randomly, buffs Lucario, DK, Sonic, and Olimar tremendously, and on top of all of that kills plenty of Peach, Ness, Lucas, and Samus' options. Probably the 2nd most banned "neutral" next to Final Destination.

Then you have Brinstar where everything runs on a timer/is avoidable.

etecoon · Jun 18, 2012

MEOW1337KITTEH said:
Example with Brinstar banned: Lets say I only use GnW I strike to Smashville (of course) and win game 1. I ban FD and get CP'd to any of the like.. 6 stages that favor the ground and lose. They ban RC and I lose my only effective counterpick. I go to Frigate, a stage far below the other two in terms of counterpicking and I lose.

lose on neutrals, complain that the counterpicks aren't bent in your favor enough

[/brawl community's competitive mentality]

[FBC] Papa Mink · Jun 18, 2012

fgcu viper used a system like or very similar to this a year or 2 ago. his rule was that any stage with a transparent floor can not be counterpicked if counterpicking with mk. Or if you're using mk you can't counterpick any stage with mk.

Ban mk.

MEOW1337KITTEH · Jun 18, 2012

Illmatic. said:
Nah, just avoid it.
Brinstar isn't worthy of being bannable (unless you take MK's polarization into consideration).

I never said it was, I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of reasons to hate it. I am pro like.. everything.

And the difference with Yoshi's is that it only happens off the stage.

etecoon said:
lose on neutrals, complain that the counterpicks aren't bent in your favor enough

[/brawl community's competitive mentality]

Please tell me where I said I got taken to a neutral. Either way, the current stagelist for neutrals and counterpicks are less favorable of the air.

z00ted · Jun 18, 2012

etecoon said:
lose on neutrals, complain that the counterpicks aren't bent in your favor enough

[/brawl community's competitive mentality]

It's not really a "neutral" when the opponent is counterpicking it against you, lol.
Besides, he didn't even state the stage he would hypothetically have been taken to.
Many of the stages already favor ground based characters (high tiered).

Papa Mink said:
fgcu viper used a system like or very similar to this a year or 2 ago. his rule was that any stage with a transparent floor can not be counterpicked if counterpicking with mk. Or if you're using mk you can't counterpick any stage with mk.

Ban mk.

That rule is a lot different when compared to mine.

Metaknight is not being banned unanimously at this point. I agree, MK should be banned. However, it's not realistic and there will always be tournaments where he is legal. This ruleset could provide for more balanced competition if that happens.

New Rule Pertaining To MK / Rainbow Cruise + Brinstar (?)

Are You In Favor Of This Rule?

Yes (I'm cool)

No (I'm lame)

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