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Groosin for a Brusin: The Groose Discussion

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Davidreamcatcha

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That stylish pompadour, that charismatic smirk...could it be? That's right, it's the ever-amazing Groose from The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword!

This character has proven himself to be one of the most memorable characters from his debut game, and has gained some well-deserved popularity with fans. So, why not take it to the next step? Groose does offer some excellent character to make a moveset out of, using moves that showcase his personality and strength. However, there is even moveset potential introduced in the game itself - he could throw eggs for a neutral special and ride his stylish Loftwing for his up special. The other option, though not preferred, is a clone of Ganondorf's moveset with minor animation alterations in order to allow Ganon to have his own moveset. While Groose may be stylish, the Smash mainstay needs a moveset of his own. There is no doubt that Skyward Sword will be the Zelda that Smash 4's Zelda presence is based on, so a Skyward Sword rep would be welcome with open arms. When you think about it, in fact, his only real competition comes from Ghirahim, a character who also debuts in Skyward Sword. However, Ghirahim gets overshadowed by Demise, the main villain in the game - and we already have a central Zelda antagonist, whereas Groose would fill a supporting character slot.

So, what do you think? Are you going to "wake up, straighten up and grow a backbone" and support Groose?
 

Smady

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A+ Dave! Was considering making this thread, I love Groose unconditionally and would main him day 0 in SSB4. He's just such an insanely likeable character and I could see him having a moveset more representative of Skyward Sword itself than Link, who will inevitably have the same set as always. Loftwing up special ahoy! Plus a spin on Link's moveset with Bob-Ombs on the down special could be interesting.

Of course Groose has his fans, but isn't that likely. Still, would be a fantastic surprise pick.
 

Holder of the Heel

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What would a SSB4 Character Discussion thread be without its fair share of no-chance-in-hell picks?

That being said, I love the character to death anyhow. Skyward characters are too good.
 

Davidreamcatcha

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That doesn't mean it couldn't happen. As said, he has more than enough moveset potential, and him being a fairly recent character gives him more leverage than the likes of Vaati.
 

Holder of the Heel

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Actually, no-chance-in-hell does mean it couldn't happen. :laugh:

He doesn't have much going for him compared to Vaati or Ghirahim. Ghirahim is recent, has a lot more set potential (seriously, how does Groose have more than enough set potential?), has a large fanbase, especially in Japan, has more SSB4 demand, and isn't such a small support role. Vaati appears more, has primary roles, and has way more set potential, and more demand for SSB4.

No-chance-in-hell.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Maybe a trophy cameo, but apart from that, I don't see much potential for Groose. Then again, I never played Skyward Sword, so I wouldn't really know.
 

ZelDan

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I definitely can't see Groose being a character in SSB, despite actually liking him.

Maybe Groose and the groosenator will be an assist trophy? I can't even see him being that, but who knows.
 

Davidreamcatcha

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Groose is as recent as Ghirahim, and as said, is more likely due to not being a straight antagonist. When you think about it, it's a Medusa/Hades case. The character built up to be the villain is massively overshadowed by a villain introduced later on in the game. As said, Groose's set potential comes from the Loftwing, Egg Projectiles and his physical strength, it is actually fairly obvious when you think about it. I wouldn't call him a "small support role" either, and he has just as big a fanbase as Ghirahim. Besides, do you have anything to actually back up his fanbase in Japan, specifically?

Vaati's last appearance was in, what, 2005? Three years before Brawl. Would be seven years since his last appearance. If he was to be put into Smash, it would've been in Brawl - he's got less of a chance than Groose does. I've made a similar argument with Skull Kid in the past, saying that he would've been in Melee if he were to appear at all.
 

Kholdstare

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Groose has much more moveset potential than Ghirahim.

That being said, with the liberal mafia controlling the media with an iron fist, they will make sure to have Ghirahim in to represent the LGBT community.

It is a shame that liberal Japan will ruin this great country of United States of America with their liberal propaganda.
 

Holder of the Heel

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Groose is as recent as Ghirahim, and as said, is more likely due to not being a straight antagonist.
Huh?

When you think about it, it's a Medusa/Hades case. The character built up to be the villain is massively overshadowed by a villain introduced later on in the game.
Not even close, Ghirahim is the show until the last few minutes, and even then he is still there as the weapon.

Medusa is the focus of the earliest chapters in Uprising, yet doesn't even appear much there. Hades is pretty much THE villain. Medusa is more like a puffed up typical villain that you see throughout that game.

As said, Groose's set potential comes from the Loftwing, Egg Projectiles and his physical strength, it is actually fairly obvious when you think about it. I wouldn't call him a "small support role" either, and he has just as big a fanbase as Ghirahim. Besides, do you have anything to actually back up his fanbase in Japan, specifically?
Physical strength doesn't really add to the set potential of a person, in fact around that basis it is rather bland. His Loftwing would be strange to incorporate, and egg projectiles isn't very exciting, more like a joke honestly. The subject of LoZ getting a character at all is a controversial thing, must we lend it to a jokey character that does not get as much set potential as pretty much every other contender? Even Impa has more potential in that area, and has recently appeared, and with perhaps a stronger role than him. Oh, and yeah, Groose has a small support role.

As for Ghirahim's fanbase, beyond the obvious fact that he is the stereotype anime-flamboyant type character, we have this that is really really recent. [COLLAPSE="Character popularity poll"]

[/COLLAPSE]

Vaati's last appearance was in, what, 2005? Three years before Brawl. Would be seven years since his last appearance. If he was to be put into Smash, it would've been in Brawl - he's got less of a chance than Groose does. I've made a similar argument with Skull Kid in the past, saying that he would've been in Melee if he were to appear at all.
Yet Skull Kid and Vaati have more demand and have more set potential, being "contemporary" doesn't really get you much, especially when people shoot at those very same characters saying they are one-shot characters and don't deserve to be in.

Groose fits WAY better as a trophy, it really seems unnecessary to put character status on him, it can't be justified.


Groose has much more moveset potential than Ghirahim.
I suggest playing Skyward Sword again. o-o And looking at my set, or trying to make one of your own. You'll see how ******** easy it is.

Unless you are joking, that really seems like something a person would say sarcastically.
 

Kholdstare

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I suggest playing Skyward Sword again. o-o And looking at my set, or trying to make one of your own. You'll see how ******** easy it is.

Unless you are joking, that really seems like something a person would say sarcastically.
How exactly does Ghirahim have more potential than Groose? All Ghirahim has going for him is a rapier and a generic projectile. Guess what? You could easily clone Marth and get whatever Ghirahim would have. Just give him a projectile and a teleport. Done.

Groose, however, has a myriad cornucopia of moves he could draw from. His thug buddies, the birds, his brute strength, his intimidation factor, the Groosenator. He could have the most interesting grab game ever made. Which would you rather have: the closest equivalent of Mike Haggar we could ever get in Smash but with more awesome, or another campy one-shot villain that Ganon once again shoves out of the way? Every argument made for Ghirahim has already been made for both Vaati and Zant.
 

Davidreamcatcha

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More specifically, if you look at the Smash Bros char list, you basically have five stereotypes. The Male Lead

1. Male Lead (Mario, Link)
2. Sidekick Character (Luigi, Diddy)
3. Female Lead (Peach, Zelda)
4. Main Antagonist (Bowser, Ganondorf)
5. Rival Character (Wario, Wolf)

Most requested SSB4 chars fall into one of these character archetypes, Groose falls easily within the Rival archetype - Zelda is a series that does not yet have that archetype. Now, does ol' Ghirahim fall into anything but the Antag archetype? For that matter, I've yet to see a series with more than two Antag archetypes.

Not even close, Ghirahim is the show until the last few minutes, and even then he is still there as the weapon.
Oh yes, clearly we shall have Ghirahim in the game as the weapon. Blatant beam sword ripoff.

Physical strength doesn't really add to the set potential of a person, in fact around that basis it is rather bland. His Loftwing would be strange to incorporate, and egg projectiles isn't very exciting, more like a joke honestly. The subject of LoZ getting a character at all is a controversial thing, must we lend it to a jokey character that does not get as much set potential as pretty much every other contender? Even Impa has more potential in that area, and has recently appeared, and with perhaps a stronger role than him. Oh, and yeah, Groose has a small support role.
Explain how, exactly, the Loftwing would be awkward to implement? And the eggs being a joke isn't a bad thing, especially considering how Smash isn't that serious and far more jokey to begin with, considering peels/pratfalls. Groose, just like Ghirahim, is in the game until to the end - and appears even earlier than him. Hardly what I'd call a small support role.

As for Ghirahim's fanbase, beyond the obvious fact that he is the stereotype anime-flamboyant type character, we have this that is really really recent. [COLLAPSE="Character popularity poll"]

[/COLLAPSE]
If we are counting that, we should also count this, which features no Ghirahim, is more recent than the one you linked, and was on Sakurai's Twitter.

Yet Skull Kid and Vaati have more demand and have more set potential, being "contemporary" doesn't really get you much, especially when people shoot at those very same characters saying they are one-shot characters and don't deserve to be in.

Groose fits WAY better as a trophy, it really seems unnecessary to put character status on him, it can't be justified.
Do you see a Vaati or a Skull Kid thread on here? And his character status is well-deserved given his fanbase, as said.

I suggest playing Skyward Sword again. o-o And looking at my set, or trying to make one of your own. You'll see how ******** easy it is.
Challenge accepted.

Also, Kholdstare brings up an excellent point - what DOES Ghirahim have over Zant? They're practically the same generic character, anyway.
 

Kholdstare

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Not to mention Groose could be for Smash the equivalent of a Dan, and everyone would love that.
 

Holder of the Heel

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How exactly does Ghirahim have more potential than Groose? All Ghirahim has going for him is a rapier and a generic projectile. Guess what? You could easily clone Marth and get whatever Ghirahim would have. Just give him a projectile and a teleport. Done.
It is amazing to hear you say this, and you find Groose to be strong in the moveset area.

Ghirahim has projectiles, a sword (sometimes two), the ability to summon enemies and a zweihander, he can teleport, he can cover his body with a black metal, he has actually shown the ability to fight physically, he can summon walls, he has a really cool counter, etc. I've already been praised for my own set, despite my lack of set making skills.

Groose, however, has a myriad cornucopia of moves he could draw from. His thug buddies, the birds, his brute strength, his intimidation factor, the Groosenator.
The first wouldn't really be incorporated in his set, his second is something a bunch of others have and isn't really anything interesting, an intimidation factor... we're talking about move sets right? :laugh: The last one on that list is the only notable one, and that can only work as a final smash, and Ghirahim can top that with a Demise FS.

He could have the most interesting grab game ever made. Which would you rather have: the closest equivalent of Mike Haggar we could ever get in Smash but with more awesome, or another campy one-shot villain that Ganon once again shoves out of the way? Every argument made for Ghirahim has already been made for both Vaati and Zant.
First off, what do you mean Ghirahim is campy? What are you talking about? And interesting you only use the term one-shot for Ghirahim and not Groose, who has much less of a reason to return.

More specifically, if you look at the Smash Bros char list, you basically have five stereotypes. The Male Lead

1. Male Lead (Mario, Link)
2. Sidekick Character (Luigi, Diddy)
3. Female Lead (Peach, Zelda)
4. Main Antagonist (Bowser, Ganondorf)
5. Rival Character (Wario, Wolf)

Most requested SSB4 chars fall into one of these character archetypes, Groose falls easily within the Rival archetype - Zelda is a series that does not yet have that archetype. Now, does ol' Ghirahim fall into anything but the Antag archetype? For that matter, I've yet to see a series with more than two Antag archetypes.
Okay, I fail to see how we can use this to predict who gets in or who doesn't. And Ghirahim kind of fits into both Antagonist and rival, considering Ghirahim is Link's rival throughout the entire game, whereas Groose is that very, very briefly.

Upon the subject of a series with getting more than one antagonist (if you are to consider Metaknight not as a villain, although he is, he just also works as a rival in addition perhaps? More so a villain), who are you to dictate Sakurai can't do that? Especially when not only are we running out of characters to add, but we don't even NEED another LoZ character, plenty of people don't even want one, at all.

Oh yes, clearly we shall have Ghirahim in the game as the weapon. Blatant beam sword ripoff.
Beginning to think I am being trolled... hmm..

Explain how, exactly, the Loftwing would be awkward to implement? And the eggs being a joke isn't a bad thing, especially considering how Smash isn't that serious and far more jokey to begin with, considering peels/pratfalls. Groose, just like Ghirahim, is in the game until to the end - and appears even earlier than him. Hardly what I'd call a small support role.
First off, summoning a bird under you is a bit strange. There is potentially a reason why we haven't received such a poor concept. Having joke moves was not the point, you are dodging what I actually mean, almost nobody wants a joke character, especially if it is to be in a big franchise, and even more especially if it is one that people discuss whether it should get someone at ALL.


If we are counting that, we should also count this, which features no Ghirahim, is more recent than the one you linked, and was on Sakurai's Twitter.
Interesting at how that didn't detract from my point.
Even more interesting that I don't see Groose there, so you can't be trying to defend your stance...

I'm being trolled.

Do you see a Vaati or a Skull Kid thread on here? And his character status is well-deserved given his fanbase, as said.
No, Ghirahim is outclassing them (not to say they won't show up I guess). Using the presence of a thread for a character is a poor argument, especially when you are talking about you having made it, and that there are a lot of joke/poor characters already having been made.


Challenge accepted.

Also, Kholdstare brings up an excellent point - what DOES Ghirahim have over Zant? They're practically the same generic character, anyway.
Not really a challenge, it is easy.

Zant has not gotten the same fanbase for his character or the same demand for Smash Brothers. Zant has also not received nearly as much attention and love as Ghirahim did in Skyward, are you sure you've played either of these games? Not to mention, Ghirahim and Zant both were completely different beings with different goals, the former being much more important to the story. Their personalities only show one similarity, they have eccentric ones. That is far as you can go, and when speaking of Zelda characters, that means even less.

I've honestly never spoken with people who have felt the way you two do, and I've been nestled in the SSB4 discussion thread talking about these characters with dozens of people for quite some time who also care a lot more about the topic than either of you do.
 

Kholdstare

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It is amazing to hear you say this, and you find Groose to be strong in the moveset area.

Ghirahim has projectiles, a sword (sometimes two), the ability to summon enemies and a zweihander, he can teleport, he can cover his body with a black metal, he has actually shown the ability to fight physically, he can summon walls, he has a really cool counter, etc. I've already been praised for my own set, despite my lack of set making skills.
Let's break down what you said Ghirahim has and what Groose has that's equivalent, shall we?

Ghirahim | Groose
Projectiles (diamonds) | Projectiles (bombs)
Weapon (sword) | Weapon (fists)
Summon enemies (keese) | Summon enemies (his buddies)
Recovery (teleport) | Recovery (Loftwing)
Defensive buff (black metal) | Defensive buff (Groose's theme)
Can fight physically | Can fight physically
Can summon walls | Can summon walls
Really cool counter | Really cool counter


The first wouldn't really be incorporated in his set, his second is something a bunch of others have and isn't really anything interesting, an intimidation factor... we're talking about move sets right? :laugh: The last one on that list is the only notable one, and that can only work as a final smash, and Ghirahim can top that with a Demise FS.
What do you mean you can't incorporate his buddies into his set? Assist trophies exist. And the intimidation factor means he could have a move that intimidates the foe. Who wouldn't be intimidated by Groose? And Groosenator final smash would be way better than a Demise final smash. This is fact.

First off, what do you mean Ghirahim is campy? What are you talking about? And interesting you only use the term one-shot for Ghirahim and not Groose, who has much less of a reason to return.
campy [ˈkæmpɪ]
adj campier, campiest Informal
1. effeminate; affected in mannerisms, dress, etc.
2. relating to or considered characteristic of homosexuals​

One-shot is much more relevant in describing Ghirahim as Ghirahim is a classic flat villain the Zelda series loves to use, that will never show up again. Groose has potential for more appearances, as he doesn't freaking die and is more memorable AND more liked than Ghirahim. I challenge you to find more Ghirahim videos on youtube than Groose videos.

Okay, I fail to see how we can use this to predict who gets in or who doesn't. And Ghirahim kind of fits into both Antagonist and rival, considering Ghirahim is Link's rival throughout the entire game, whereas Groose is that very, very briefly.
Ghirahim is in no way Link's rival. He doesn't compete as Link's equal.

Upon the subject of a series with getting more than one antagonist (if you are to consider Metaknight not as a villain, although he is, he just also works as a rival in addition perhaps? More so a villain), who are you to dictate Sakurai can't do that? Especially when not only are we running out of characters to add, but we don't even NEED another LoZ character, plenty of people don't even want one, at all.
Sakurai has consistently shown in the past he will not make more antagonists for a series unless he really likes it. Thus why Kirby got two. And we DO need another LoZ character. I want one. I don't want more clones.

First off, summoning a bird under you is a bit strange. There is potentially a reason why we haven't received such a poor concept. Having joke moves was not the point, you are dodging what I actually mean, almost nobody wants a joke character, especially if it is to be in a big franchise, and even more especially if it is one that people discuss whether it should get someone at ALL.
Strangeness isn't a problem with Smash Bros, the series is wacky in itself. It's the fighting game equivalent of TF2's equal to FPSes. Nobody wants a joke character? Captain Falcon is very popular. I'm sure if we had a Dan Hibiki people would love it.

No, Ghirahim is outclassing them (not to say they won't show up I guess). Using the presence of a thread for a character is a poor argument, especially when you are talking about you having made it, and that there are a lot of joke/poor characters already having been made.

Zant has not gotten the same fanbase for his character or the same demand for Smash Brothers. Zant has also not received nearly as much attention and love as Ghirahim did in Skyward, are you sure you've played either of these games? Not to mention, Ghirahim and Zant both were completely different beings with different goals, the former being much more important to the story. Their personalities only show one similarity, they have eccentric ones. That is far as you can go, and when speaking of Zelda characters, that means even less.
Zant had the exact same size fan base as Ghirahim. You just don't see it now because TP is so long ago and SS is so recent. Ghirahim pales in comparison to the fanbase Groose has. Just look at Youtube, again. Ghirahim and Zant both had the same base goals, and personalities. They were both insane, and they both were working for a master like Ganon. They're both forgettable in the long run, as Groose isn't. Zant is in fact much more important to the story as he was the antag for 95% of Twilight Princess. Groose was the antag for, what, 90% of Skyward Sword? Zant was mentioned more, he appeared more, and he made players hate him more. He was more memorable than Ghirahim. Ghirahim was a campy minion. Zant was a maniacal, genocidal, power-hungry ******* who wrecked entire dimensions.

I've honestly never spoken with people who have felt the way you two do, and I've been nestled in the SSB4 discussion thread talking about these characters with dozens of people for quite some time who also care a lot more about the topic than either of you do.
This is a Groose discussion thread. We are defending Groose. That's what we do here.
 

MasterWarlord

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Holder of the Heel said:
I've honestly never spoken with people who have felt the way you two do, and I've been nestled in the SSB4 discussion thread talking about these characters with dozens of people for quite some time who also care a lot more about the topic than either of you do.
I sympathize with you being the only one to seriously argue down a thread like this. . .

But never, ever use experience in the SSB4 thread as something to brag about ever again.

Most of us fled that hellhole years ago, back when it was still called "Official SSB4 discussion thread". We are only out here because that infernal place exploded over.
 

Junahu

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The big problem with Ghirahim, is that Ganondorf exists. He exists and.... has a very dull moveset. If Ghirahim were to show up flaunting his diamonds and swords and metal box status effect, it'd be totally incongruous to the general 'feel' of Ganondorf (what, with him being a completely physical punch/kick fighter despite using NOTHING but magic and swords in all of his appearances).
To Groose's credit, he could have the most straight forward moveset ever, and still feel entertaining to use simply because of his strength of character. He could easily be cast as a parody of Link, using similar items like bombs, but in completely silly ways.


Besides, neither character is especially likely to show up as a Newcomer, since they have not shown up in more than one game.

Now Tingle on the other hand....
 

MasterWarlord

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The big problem with Ghirahim, is that Ganondorf exists. He exists and.... has a very dull moveset. If Ghirahim were to show up flaunting his diamonds and swords and metal box status effect, it'd be totally incongruous to the general 'feel' of Ganondorf (what, with him being a completely physical punch/kick fighter despite using NOTHING but magic and swords in all of his appearances).
To Groose's credit, he could have the most straight forward moveset ever, and still feel entertaining to use simply because of his strength of character. He could easily be cast as a parody of Link, using similar items like bombs, but in completely silly ways.


Besides, neither character is especially likely to show up as a Newcomer, since they have not shown up in more than one game.

Now Tingle on the other hand....
. . .This is a pretty bloody good anti-Ghirahim point. I should've known you'd have some actual insight on SSB4 were you to actually discuss the topic, Junahu.

More impressive, you know the correct Zelda rep.
 

Holder of the Heel

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I sympathize with you being the only one to seriously argue down a thread like this. . .
Why thank you.

But never, ever use experience in the SSB4 thread as something to brag about ever again.

Most of us fled that hellhole years ago, back when it was still called "Official SSB4 discussion thread". We are only out here because that infernal place exploded over.
I've always found it remarkable about how bad the reputation of that place is. The people there REALLY REALLY know their Nintendo stuff. Like, it is seriously crazy. Some of them are in a constant serious discussion mode they cannot break out of.

The only reason it can have a bad reputation is two things: newcomers flooding in all the time that don't think too much about what they suggest, and they are almost always ignored or attacked (not proud of that feature, but saying it is a sad truth), and that since there are only so many things to talk about there, a lot of it is filled with pockets of joking and chit chat, but topics are recycled and examined very critically there at times. Take it from me, who really likes to do that (which is why I'm irked at the idea of Groose being not only possible, but a better addition than Ghirahim). I'm not even the most critical of the people there, actually, not even close.


Ghirahim | Groose
Projectiles (diamonds) | Projectiles (bombs)
Weapon (sword) | Weapon (fists)
Summon enemies (keese) | Summon enemies (his buddies)
Recovery (teleport) | Recovery (Loftwing)
Defensive buff (black metal) | Defensive buff (Groose's theme)
Can fight physically | Can fight physically
Can summon walls | Can summon walls
Really cool counter | Really cool counter
First off, Groose does not have a really cool counter (Ghirahim flips over you then does a side round house kick, Groose does not seem fit enough to do something like that, and quite frankly, it'd look awful). Groose does not have a defensive buff, you have just made that up. Ghirahim has a more to use to fight physically, he is very nimble and lean, and has three different weapon sets (single sword, two swords, Zweihander), and with them he can shoot energy as well. Bomb projectiles aren't very new. Groose can't summon walls.

Ghirahim has just thrashed your idea of Groose.

What do you mean you can't incorporate his buddies into his set?
Summoning buddies to battle sounds very FS like, and honestly, seeing it outside of that sounds a little too... MYM. >___> It is also telling that he needs to rely on other generic characters to fight with him to be interesting. Not to mention your dependence on this:

And the intimidation factor means he could have a move that intimidates the foe. Who wouldn't be intimidated by Groose?
You are now relying on something half the cast can do, including Ghirahim. Not to mention, it is something very generic. Clearly grasping at straws.

And Groosenator final smash would be way better than a Demise final smash. This is fact.
Not at all, the latter is far more original and beautiful.


campy [ˈkæmpɪ]
adj campier, campiest Informal
1. effeminate; affected in mannerisms, dress, etc.
2. relating to or considered characteristic of homosexuals​
First off, it is horrible to try and use that as something against his character, especially when that "type" is popular in Japan. Not to mention, he is much more androgynous, if you actually take a look at his character. (I've seen people properly note that online a lot).

One-shot is much more relevant in describing Ghirahim as Ghirahim is a classic flat villain the Zelda series loves to use, that will never show up again. Groose has potential for more appearances, as he doesn't freaking die and is more memorable AND more liked than Ghirahim. I challenge you to find more Ghirahim videos on youtube than Groose videos.
Haha there is so much to say here. One, Ghirahim is not classic at all. He is given more attention and detail than ANY villain has EVER in LoZ. More than Ganondorf, more than Vaati. Not to mention, it is terrible to say Ghirahim died, let alone can't show up again. We've already been officially confirmed that there are earlier Links, and that Demise has obviously been out with Ghirahim prior to Skyward Sword. And to touch on the notion that he died, er, nothing really says that. He disappeared mysteriously when Demise lost. To say he dies when Demise is sealed is paradoxical considering... Ghirahim has been present throughout the entire Skyward game. So to say he suddenly died from dealing the submitting blow to Demise is not only strange but presumptuous.

Groose does not come up on the character polls here, not the popularity one in Japan (Ghirahim did), and almost all Groose videos are jokes/memes, enforcing my view that Groose is in fact... a joke character.

Oh, and I searched Ghirahim Zelda and Groose Zelda on youtube, Ghirahim has more than 1,000 videos over Groose. I have beaten that challenge quite easily, even though to pretend it is an actual argument is a bit silly, eh? :laugh: So I won't even give myself points for that.



Ghirahim is in no way Link's rival. He doesn't compete as Link's equal.
Not the definition of rival. Ghirahim is seen fighting Link throughout out his entire journey, that is what people call a rival. Not to mention, they are both fighting over someone only one can possess, Zelda. Groose does that too, but like I said, far briefer, and he even gives up at the end.


Sakurai has consistently shown in the past he will not make more antagonists for a series unless he really likes it. Thus why Kirby got two. And we DO need another LoZ character. I want one. I don't want more clones.
I had no idea your demands hold so much weight in Sakurai's heart, my apologies friend!


Strangeness isn't a problem with Smash Bros, the series is wacky in itself. It's the fighting game equivalent of TF2's equal to FPSes. Nobody wants a joke character? Captain Falcon is very popular. I'm sure if we had a Dan Hibiki people would love it.
You aren't listening to what I am saying at all. Few people want a joke character, more so new franchises, added characters to franchises, or retros. Then there are some who want WTF characters, but they do NOT want them in the bigger franchises. You avoided my point that people don't want them in those, or that people debate whether Zelda should get one or not.


Zant had the exact same size fan base as Ghirahim. You just don't see it now because TP is so long ago and SS is so recent. Ghirahim pales in comparison to the fanbase Groose has. Just look at Youtube, again. Ghirahim and Zant both had the same base goals, and personalities. They were both insane, and they both were working for a master like Ganon. They're both forgettable in the long run, as Groose isn't. Zant is in fact much more important to the story as he was the antag for 95% of Twilight Princess. Groose was the antag for, what, 90% of Skyward Sword? Zant was mentioned more, he appeared more, and he made players hate him more. He was more memorable than Ghirahim. Ghirahim was a campy minion. Zant was a maniacal, genocidal, power-hungry ******* who wrecked entire dimensions.
Zant does NOT have the same demand. Ghirahim has exploded on tumblrs, has almost as many youtube videos (seriously, what is your obsession with that?) despite being known for a lot less time and his game not selling as much. Deviantart people go crazy over Ghirahim, like seriously, you have NO clue. I have yet to dig through all of the content of Ghirahim on the internet, and believe me, I dig DEEP. Ghirahim also has more fans on Facebook than either Groose or Zant (so he wins in your youtube, deviant, tumblr, facebook, and on smashboards).

As for their goals and personalities, prepare to be corrected (I actually played the games? or perhaps you forget, that's okay). Zant wanted to rule his land and worshipped Ganondorf like a God because he gave him the power to do so. Ghirahim wanted to revive his sealed master to unleash darkness on the world. Zant's personality is hardly fleshed out, and it is not flamboyant (in style, behavior, mannerisms), bloodlusting, and not so noble acting. He is more bratty and well... sadly he has little more, just as I said, he isn't given much love and attention. Ghirahim is though. Moving on to your belief that Ghirahim is forgetable and Groose isn't... how do you have the authority to say that? They are both still lingering in the memories of people, its just that you can tell more so with Ghirahim because he so far has been more memorable. How can you put your view so high that you would try and predict the future and pick how people feel/will feel? Da hell?


This is a Groose discussion thread. We are defending Groose. That's what we do here.
That was... not at all my point. I'm letting you know that everyone who thinks heavily about this topic does not feel the way you do. You are in a very tiny minority that exists among people that haven't thought about it as much as the others.

The big problem with Ghirahim, is that Ganondorf exists. He exists and.... has a very dull moveset. If Ghirahim were to show up flaunting his diamonds and swords and metal box status effect, it'd be totally incongruous to the general 'feel' of Ganondorf (what, with him being a completely physical punch/kick fighter despite using NOTHING but magic and swords in all of his appearances).
What are you talking about? Why does he have to have the same feel as Ganondorf? Neither Link, Zelda, or Toon Link have the same feel as him? Ghirahim would more so resemble those other three with his weapons and magic.

I'm really confused.
 

Davidreamcatcha

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Too MYM is a very good thing. Dedede summons his minions and still has a full moveset. Ice Climbers is also too MYM, considering it is 2 characters at once.

Besides, it seems a little hypocritical for you to be saying that, considering you used minions as a point in Ghirahim's favor and submitted your moveset to an MYM contest.
 

Holder of the Heel

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No, you will not see movesets similar to the ones you see in MYM. Not even close, people purposefully go over the top to make it more interesting and impressive. No character in Smash bears the slightest resemblance to the sets you see there. Besides, Groose working like Ice Climbers does not seem okay, and him pulling out his buddies and throwing them like that doesn't either. Don't you think that too? XD

Ironically, I never put the fact that he can summon minions in my set, it could be an easy FS, but I opted for Demise. But if the latter couldn't work for whatever reason, then minions will do. I was listing all of the possible things you can choose from when making him. (Whereas with Groose you could use that as a FS where maybe everyone gets on their Loftwing and pelts eggs at the stage, but then that means no Groosenator, and no summoning your friends, which sapped two potentially "interesting and possible" things in the set). With Ghirahim I have too many options, in fact my set is almost too MYM because it just has SO much.

But anyways, you didn't address the bulk of what I have said, it is probably best to step away from this for tonight, taking the idea of Groose too seriously. >_< My fault really, used to having that community in the SSB4 thread that took things very seriously and bad ideas have already been cut off from us, and now we have this set up, these things are bound to happen.
 

Davidreamcatcha

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Soooo because MYM ensures that their movesets actually represent the character well instead of being generic like the vast majority of Sakurai sets, it's "over the top?"

Though then again, I'm trying to talk to the guy who listed "fabulous" as a point in Ghirahim's favor.
 

Kholdstare

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First off, Groose does not have a really cool counter (Ghirahim flips over you then does a side round house kick, Groose does not seem fit enough to do something like that, and quite frankly, it'd look awful). Groose does not have a defensive buff, you have just made that up. Ghirahim has a more to use to fight physically, he is very nimble and lean, and has three different weapon sets (single sword, two swords, Zweihander), and with them he can shoot energy as well. Bomb projectiles aren't very new. Groose can't summon walls.
It doesn't matter what Ghirahim actually did in the game. It's all about characterization. Copypasting only things they actually did is a bad idea with movesetting. You need to capture the essence of the character, what they would do in Smash Bros, and make unique actions. Groose has the potential to do amazing counters, and that's what matters. Groose could also have a defensive buff. If he is flailing, or acting goofy, his theme would kick in, overwriting the background music, and give him superarmor/other buffs. He has the potential for that. Using a sword isn't new. Groose could use various forms of unarmed combat. And Groose can in fact create walls - how do you think he kept Link's Loftwing penned up? He made a plank wall.

Ghirahim has just thrashed your idea of Groose.
No, he hasn't. Quit acting smug like you've already won the debate when you haven't.

Summoning buddies to battle sounds very FS like, and honestly, seeing it outside of that sounds a little too... MYM. >___> It is also telling that he needs to rely on other generic characters to fight with him to be interesting.
Summons are not new in Smash Bros. King Dedede can do it. Why not Groose?

You are now relying on something half the cast can do, including Ghirahim. Not to mention, it is something very generic. Clearly grasping at straws.
Not the way it could be implemented would be generic. Imagine an intimidation aura. Anyone in front of him cowers or is pushed back based on how much damage/combos/offense he can keep up. It increases as your offense increases, giving you "confidence", but when you blunder, like try to hit a dodging enemy then get hit in ending lag, you lose confidence and intimidation and the aura disappears.

Not at all, the latter is far more original and beautiful.
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

First off, it is horrible to try and use that as something against his character, especially when that "type" is popular in Japan. Not to mention, he is much more androgynous, if you actually take a look at his character. (I've seen people properly note that online a lot).
Femme, pseudo-gay antagonists will not be as popular with the neckbeards that play Smash as someone as awesome as Groose. Just ask MasterWarlord. And he is clearly campy, not just androgynous. Envy from FMA is androgynous, but not campy. Ghirahim is campy. See the difference?

Haha there is so much to say here. One, Ghirahim is not classic at all. He is given more attention and detail than ANY villain has EVER in LoZ. More than Ganondorf, more than Vaati. Not to mention, it is terrible to say Ghirahim died, let alone can't show up again. We've already been officially confirmed that there are earlier Links, and that Demise has obviously been out with Ghirahim prior to Skyward Sword. And to touch on the notion that he died, er, nothing really says that. He disappeared mysteriously when Demise lost. To say he dies when Demise is sealed is paradoxical considering... Ghirahim has been present throughout the entire Skyward game. So to say he suddenly died from dealing the submitting blow to Demise is not only strange but presumptuous.
More attention and detail? How many games has Ghirahim been in? One? How many has Vaati and Ganon been in? Several. The entire ****ing canon is based around Ganon. Your first point is a flat out lie. You're grasping at straws here. Ghirahim will never return. NEVER. This is a fact.

Groose does not come up on the character polls here, not the popularity one in Japan (Ghirahim did), and almost all Groose videos are jokes/memes, enforcing my view that Groose is in fact... a joke character.
Groose is more popular than Ghirahim. Prove me wrong.

Oh, and I searched Ghirahim Zelda and Groose Zelda on youtube, Ghirahim has more than 1,000 videos over Groose. I have beaten that challenge quite easily, even though to pretend it is an actual argument is a bit silly, eh? :laugh: So I won't even give myself points for that.
Search for Ghirahim. Then search for Groose. Groose has more videos.

Not the definition of rival. Ghirahim is seen fighting Link throughout out his entire journey, that is what people call a rival. Not to mention, they are both fighting over someone only one can possess, Zelda. Groose does that too, but like I said, far briefer, and he even gives up at the end.
No, that is an antagonist. A rival is someone that starts where the protagonist is, is very similar, is equal in power, and is for the same goal, and is not working for the "big bad". Groose is more of a rival than Ghirahim. He and Link grew up together, have been rivals for Zelda's love, but in the end Link gets the girl and he doesn't.

I had no idea your demands hold so much weight in Sakurai's heart, my apologies friend!
Stop being a pompous douche because I questioned Ghirahim being in SSB4.

You aren't listening to what I am saying at all. Few people want a joke character, more so new franchises, added characters to franchises, or retros. Then there are some who want WTF characters, but they do NOT want them in the bigger franchises. You avoided my point that people don't want them in those, or that people debate whether Zelda should get one or not.
I am listening to what you are saying. I think what you are saying is wrong. You don't know what "people want". You only know what YOU want.

Zant does NOT have the same demand. Ghirahim has exploded on tumblrs, has almost as many youtube videos (seriously, what is your obsession with that?) despite being known for a lot less time and his game not selling as much. Deviantart people go crazy over Ghirahim, like seriously, you have NO clue. I have yet to dig through all of the content of Ghirahim on the internet, and believe me, I dig DEEP. Ghirahim also has more fans on Facebook than either Groose or Zant (so he wins in your youtube, deviant, tumblr, facebook, and on smashboards).
Oh, clearly tumblr was popular when Twilight Princess was released. Silly me. And you're bringing in the DEVIANTART community as support for Ghirahim? The same community dedicated to drawing furry artwork and glazing over homosexual idols like exactly what Ghirahim is? Groose has just as much if not more fans than Ghirahim. Zant was very, very popular when Twilight Princess was released, so much that people were furious when Ganon booted him out of the picture. He was a much better villain than Ganondorf, and in the end he turned out to be another puppet. But unlike the puppet you defend, Ghirahim, he had round personality, whereas Ghirahim is generic flamboyant insane character. Nothing redeemable or likeable about him.

As for their goals and personalities, prepare to be corrected (I actually played the games? or perhaps you forget, that's okay). Zant wanted to rule his land and worshipped Ganondorf like a God because he gave him the power to do so. Ghirahim wanted to revive his sealed master to unleash darkness on the world. Zant's personality is hardly fleshed out, and it is not flamboyant (in style, behavior, mannerisms), bloodlusting, and not so noble acting. He is more bratty and well... sadly he has little more, just as I said, he isn't given much love and attention. Ghirahim is though. Moving on to your belief that Ghirahim is forgetable and Groose isn't... how do you have the authority to say that? They are both still lingering in the memories of people, its just that you can tell more so with Ghirahim because he so far has been more memorable. How can you put your view so high that you would try and predict the future and pick how people feel/will feel? Da hell?
Zant did not worship Ganondorf. In fact, he scorned him, because Zant wanted to be ABOVE Ganondorf. He was limited by Ganon's power. Zant was the ultimate Usurper. He planned on plunging the land in Twilight so he thought he'd have enough power to destroy Ganon and reign forever. He slaughtered his own people, and had no problem destroying two dimensions for his own sadistic pleasure. He was insane, though, and that part of his personality was sealed within himself. Only when he let it flow freely through him in order to be truly powerful, it consumed and led to his downfall.

Ghirahim is a puppet. A blind follower of his precious master Demise. He tries to act flamboyant to intimidate, but it just ends up being creepy and disgusting. Guess what? Acting campy is not a good thing to have for an antagonist. It undermines their role as antagonist. He didn't have any depth. What you saw on the outside was basically all there was to him. Nothing to ponder over, nothing to delve into deep discussion about. Nothing to respect from one side and hate from the other. Groose, on the other hand, is hilarious, likeable, and very much memorable. He shows up more than Ghirahim, and has a unique personality. He's the most unique personality Zelda has seen in AGES. In a few years, more people will remember Groose than Ghirahim.


That was... not at all my point. I'm letting you know that everyone who thinks heavily about this topic does not feel the way you do. You are in a very tiny minority that exists among people that haven't thought about it as much as the others.
But you questioned why we had this opinion. I explained why.

What are you talking about? Why does he have to have the same feel as Ganondorf? Neither Link, Zelda, or Toon Link have the same feel as him? Ghirahim would more so resemble those other three with his weapons and magic.

I'm really confused.
It matters because Ganondorf is the "big bad" of the series. If a lower antagonist that's appeared in one game had a more interesting moveset, it'd be a freaking disgrace.
 

Junahu

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No, you will not see movesets similar to the ones you see in MYM. Not even close, people purposefully go over the top to make it more interesting and impressive. No character in Smash bears the slightest resemblance to the sets you see there.
That is a bit of an overgeneralisation. Just like how you feel insulted when the "Official SSB4 Discussion Thread" is overgeneralised as being an amateur yes-man concert, it's not very pleasant to have MYM overgeneralised as being a circlejerk of cloud-cuckoo-landers

What are you talking about? Why does he have to have the same feel as Ganondorf? Neither Link, Zelda, or Toon Link have the same feel as him? Ghirahim would more so resemble those other three with his weapons and magic.
In regards to Link, Toon Link and Zelda, they don't have the same feel as Ganondorf... because they are protagonists. It's the reason why Mario isn't randomly breathing fire and performing hip drops and suicide KOing the opponent. To include a series antagonist, they need to feel fundamentally different to play when compared to the series protagonist. This is why Ganondorf DOESN'T use his magic and swords, even in spite of having every reason in the world to do so
 

ClinkStryphart

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I could easily see Groose being in the SSB4 due to in SkywardSword he is primarly Links rival in every way shape and form. Not to mention Nintendo has very very few Parody Characters which could apply to more audiences.
 

Holder of the Heel

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That is a bit of an overgeneralisation. Just like how you feel insulted when the "Official SSB4 Discussion Thread" is overgeneralised as being an amateur yes-man concert, it's not very pleasant to have MYM overgeneralised as being a circlejerk of cloud-cuckoo-landers
Er, that is not what I said. I said that they make movesets that you wouldn't get in Smash Brothers because they are far more complex and tend to have things that a character we actually have would do.

Each move has a lot of depth in the MYM, people pretty much dedicate a paragraph or two for each one, while in actuality, the moves characters get don't really have too much to say about them. I couldn't describe Mario's special moves like that without basically repeating myself.

I've watch MYM and seen the sets, I also see sets that SSB4 speculators makes, I also see the sets that are actually in the games. There are differences, very, very, obvious differences.

In regards to Link, Toon Link and Zelda, they don't have the same feel as Ganondorf... because they are protagonists.
And not because they fundamentally work different? I've never heard anyone feel that because Ghirahim is not like Ganondorf, he shouldn't be in and would have a negative impact.

Though what I've said above is enough to refute that, just look at D3 and Meta. They are both antagonists... they don't seem similar at all. One is much more sinister and deadly while the other seems rather cuddly and lazy.

It's the reason why Mario isn't randomly breathing fire and performing hip drops and suicide KOing the opponent.
Actually, we don't Mario doing that because he can't do that.

To include a series antagonist, they need to feel fundamentally different to play when compared to the series protagonist. This is why Ganondorf DOESN'T use his magic and swords, even in spite of having every reason in the world to do so
I'm so glad you know what is going on in Sakurai's head. .__. Why do all of these people pretend that their opinion is correct? Learn some humility people. D:

It doesn't matter what Ghirahim actually did in the game. It's all about characterization. Copypasting only things they actually did is a bad idea with movesetting. You need to capture the essence of the character, what they would do in Smash Bros, and make unique actions. Groose has the potential to do amazing counters, and that's what matters. Groose could also have a defensive buff. If he is flailing, or acting goofy, his theme would kick in, overwriting the background music, and give him superarmor/other buffs. He has the potential for that. Using a sword isn't new. Groose could use various forms of unarmed combat. And Groose can in fact create walls - how do you think he kept Link's Loftwing penned up? He made a plank wall.
Your thinking is way too linear with this, which is surprising because with the character you support you are very incredibly liberal in thinking. I didn't copypaste exactly what Ghirahim has done, I never said that, I have a lot of moves inspired from what he does, you know, basically what every character does in Smash that is actually in. The fact that Groose actually has nothing to draw from isn't actually a plus, it is widely considered a negative, and he doesn't even have the plus of having huge potential of having original moves because he is similar to a boring human, whereas you could actually design Ghirahim ignoring every type of attack he has done in the game and simply give him dark magic, and it wouldn't even be inappropriate.

Again, I can tell you are from the MYM thread without even having to go and confirm it, overwriting the music in the background is a FS-like move, the only time where over the top things are justified, but you can only have one. Sadly just about everything Groose related would work as an assist trophy, at best. Groose faces the problem of not being justifiable as a character in a franchise that isn't too popular with the idea of receiving a newcomer. There is too much for Groose to handle to get in, it isn't going to happen. I'm not saying Ghirahim will happen, but I do believe there is an actual chance in comparison to Groose. It's sad to have the character you are passionate about not have a chance, but you will accept it all in due time.

As for sword-wielding not being new, it is actually more original than using fists, and no one uses two swords, and no one uses a zweihander. Groose can bring nothing new and has to use what a lot of others do. :laugh: As for him making walls, he has to build them, he can't summon them. Isn't that obvious? Though that is only further proof that you are grasping for straws, since he did that in one small part in the game.


No, he hasn't. Quit acting smug like you've already won the debate when you haven't.
Just because you want to believe in Groose doesn't mean that I haven't beaten you in this debate. You can't say, "Oh, you haven't convinced me, so you certainly haven't shown a better argument!" Surely you know this.

Summons are not new in Smash Bros. King Dedede can do it. Why not Groose?
Because pulling his buddies out of his pocket doesn't work as well as King Dedede pulling out Doos and Dees. If it involves him calling them in on there Loftwings, how can you not see that that is like an assist trophy or a Final Smash? Do you know what those two things are and what they are like?


Not the way it could be implemented would be generic. Imagine an intimidation aura. Anyone in front of him cowers or is pushed back based on how much damage/combos/offense he can keep up. It increases as your offense increases, giving you "confidence", but when you blunder, like try to hit a dodging enemy then get hit in ending lag, you lose confidence and intimidation and the aura disappears.
It doesn't seem like a move, more like a passive ability like Lucario has. Though the latter has that exclusively, intimidating seems like a thing that pretty much every character could have.


Femme, pseudo-gay antagonists will not be as popular with the neckbeards that play Smash as someone as awesome as Groose. Just ask MasterWarlord. And he is clearly campy, not just androgynous. Envy from FMA is androgynous, but not campy. Ghirahim is campy. See the difference?
Yeah, well like, that is your opinion, man.

O_O;

More attention and detail? How many games has Ghirahim been in? One? How many has Vaati and Ganon been in? Several. The entire ****ing canon is based around Ganon. Your first point is a flat out lie. You're grasping at straws here. Ghirahim will never return. NEVER. This is a fact.
Ganondorf is never given much of a personality, and the games he is in he rarely appears. So no, that is not a lie. Sorry, everyone will agree that Ganondorf is a generic bad guy. :laugh: You are the first to think otherwise.

Again, you inflate your opinion as fact. I've only shown that Ghirahim is far more likely to return. And sadly, you haven't even provided a reason why that he will not return. You simply say it. It is unfortunate to take someone so seriously who just says things and feels that their opinion has the ability to alter reality and pierce truth.

Groose is more popular than Ghirahim. Prove me wrong.
Already have, we have resorted to polls and the internet, and Ghirahim won in both. Also, in the two SSB4 character poll we had, Groose was not high in either, whereas Ghirahim was the highest Zelda character in the latter and I believe Vaati was the highest in the former (with Ghirahim the second highest).

Search for Ghirahim. Then search for Groose. Groose has more videos.
Haha I told you I just did! I'll post the exact numbers: 4,970 for Groose, 6,290 for Ghirahim. You lost, it's okay. ^^
Also checked Google, Ghirahim has more results than Groose does, which is pretty predictable, but I just thought I'd also add THAT on top of everything else internet related.


No, that is an antagonist. A rival is someone that starts where the protagonist is, is very similar, is equal in power, and is for the same goal, and is not working for the "big bad". Groose is more of a rival than Ghirahim. He and Link grew up together, have been rivals for Zelda's love, but in the end Link gets the girl and he doesn't.
Your definition of a rival is oddly specific, are you deriving it from the Pokemon games? Anyways, this is semantics, I shouldn't have even entertained this idea of being worthy in a serious discussion to begin with.


Stop being a pompous douche because I questioned Ghirahim being in SSB4.
Oddly enough I've been the only one here to not inflate my opinion and provide thorough reasoning for everything. Am I then a pompous douche, in comparison to the person who is likening their opinion as the same as Sakurai's?

Not that I am thinking you are that, that is a tad rude, I just think you are a fanboy of Groose, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

I am listening to what you are saying. I think what you are saying is wrong. You don't know what "people want". You only know what YOU want.
Interestingly enough I am providing the view of more people, whereas you simply speak for yourself but pretend it is everyone. I've spoken to many people about this, have looked online, and I know that my view is definitely the majority. It's okay to be in the minority, just realize that there is no chance and the idea of Groose being in is just a fancy.

Oh, clearly tumblr was popular when Twilight Princess was released. Silly me. And you're bringing in the DEVIANTART community as support for Ghirahim? The same community dedicated to drawing furry artwork and glazing over homosexual idols like exactly what Ghirahim is?
Oh man, you are hating on two sources of the public that I've added to youtube (that also has more Ghirahim)? Groose is not as popular on either of those, in addition with Facebook, which you have ignored (and is a better judge than those two and I'd perhaps say youtube, which once again, you have lost).

Groose has just as much if not more fans than Ghirahim. Zant was very, very popular when Twilight Princess was released, so much that people were furious when Ganon booted him out of the picture. He was a much better villain than Ganondorf, and in the end he turned out to be another puppet. But unlike the puppet you defend, Ghirahim, he had round personality, whereas Ghirahim is generic flamboyant insane character. Nothing redeemable or likeable about him.
You're doing that thing again where you say things but then stop at the part where you back them up.

Zant did not worship Ganondorf.
Zant called Ganondorf his God. Everyone on the internet also says he worshiped Ganondorf. In fact, the last thing he says is that he will be resurrected infinitely by his God.

The only time he actually had anything against Ganondorf was a "symbollic" moment where you see Zant who is dead snap his neck the moment Ganondorf passes.

Zant was the ultimate Usurper.
Being an usurper doesn't translate as being the ultimate Usurper.

He planned on plunging the land in Twilight so he thought he'd have enough power to destroy Ganon and reign forever.[/QUOTE]

You just made that up dude. o-o

He slaughtered his own people, and had no problem destroying two dimensions for his own sadistic pleasure. He was insane, though, and that part of his personality was sealed within himself. Only when he let it flow freely through him in order to be truly powerful, it consumed and led to his downfall.
Oddly enough he didn't give the player anything about his personality until he started having a temper tantrum in the final encounter (which is basically like the real first one).

Ghirahim is a puppet. A blind follower of his precious master Demise.
Actually he is Demise's Dark Master Sword, the exact opposite of Fi.

He tries to act flamboyant to intimidate, but it just ends up being creepy and disgusting.
Actually he acts aloof because he has pride and likes to pretend he doesn't care and that he is just having fun and messing with you. It is only when his nerves are pulled on too tightly does he show a bottled up rage and bloodlust. The latter part it well, your opinion, don't forget that tidbit. :laugh: Though you keep doing that.

Guess what? Acting campy is not a good thing to have for an antagonist. It undermines their role as antagonist. He didn't have any depth. What you saw on the outside was basically all there was to him. Nothing to ponder over, nothing to delve into deep discussion about. Nothing to respect from one side and hate from the other.
Actually there are many debates about his character. For example, does he truly fake his emotions, or are they real? They draw comparisons to Fi who is a humanoid weapon and ask if he is emotional because he is the opposite, or that he is simply evil and that he really is faking the emotions. They also debate as to WHAT exactly he is and what he means. With Zant you can't really do that, which is partly because of his character, but mostly that TP doesn't give him enough attention, which sucks, because Zant seems great as well, I love Zelda characters.

Groose, on the other hand, is hilarious, likeable, and very much memorable. He shows up more than Ghirahim, and has a unique personality. He's the most unique personality Zelda has seen in AGES. In a few years, more people will remember Groose than Ghirahim.
Groose is not the most unique personality. What Groose DOES have is the most character development in the sense that he goes from being a bully to becoming a nice guy and who isn't jealous of Link getting Zelda anymore. Which I do certainly love, it was great.

...Again you pretend to have psychic powers? Da heck?


But you questioned why we had this opinion. I explained why.
Ooooh, that explains a lot. You simply want him in because you like him, so my theory was right. You guys are just Groose fanboys.

It matters because Ganondorf is the "big bad" of the series. If a lower antagonist that's appeared in one game had a more interesting moveset, it'd be a freaking disgrace.
Are you serious with this? Are you serious?

I'm actually going to stop here, because I am keeping this thread alive, once I go away it will possibly be put to rest due to lack of genuine supporters. The people who have posted here have said they don't see him as a character, even when they like him, as I do as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_cDA_wJz40
 

Smady

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I think I see why you left Make Your Move now, Heel. All due respect, you made an okay Ghirahim and Okami moveset, but the community over there has been making movesets for four years and we know our stuff. You may have taken a tertiary glance at some sets you were interested in and posted a couple of your own, but it's very unfair to label the entire contest as you have in this thread. Please, let's not get into a mud flinging contest between MYM and SSB4 thread.

Be that as it may, it is plausible to have something like a Loftwing in even the Brawl engine - all you need is a second model (the Loftwing) and have it act as a vehicle for Groose. The minions could be in the background like Pokémon Trainer or come out intermittently on Groose's command. This is a stretch for a character like Groose realistically, but without real-world restraints could be fun - it's entirely fine in the context of, like, memory on disc, just not in-line with the sets Sakurai makes.
 

SmashChu

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Wow, this is some discussion. Holder is going at it. I'll read it when I get the chance.

EDIT:Want to point something out. Groose's character was that he wasn't as tough as he seemed. He was a big bully, but he couldn't go out and fight like Link could. The only time he was actually in combat was when he manned a slingshot but Link was there too. Ghirahim fought you three times and you saw him more than that. In terms of fighting potential, Ghirahim has him beat.
 

ndayday

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Looks like several cases of ruffled pompadours to me.
 

Shorts

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I was thinking Groose and Tingle could be the LoZ assists.
 

Davidreamcatcha

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You get pissed off when SSB4 is generalized, then go on to generalize MYM. You basically criticize the only legit point in this thread by saying that Ghirahim deserves a better set than Ganon. So, to summarize, you're buttmad because we dare to think of having someone other than your Tumblr god in Smash 4.

That's a pretty cool story, bro. Go back to the Ghirahim thread.
 

SmashChu

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You get pissed off when SSB4 is generalized, then go on to generalize MYM. You basically criticize the only legit point in this thread by saying that Ghirahim deserves a better set than Ganon. So, to summarize, you're buttmad because we dare to think of having someone other than your Tumblr god in Smash 4.

That's a pretty cool story, bro. Go back to the Ghirahim thread.
There you have it folks. The first drama of the season. Stay tuned for more!
 

Holder of the Heel

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You get pissed off when SSB4 is generalized, then go on to generalize MYM. You basically criticize the only legit point in this thread by saying that Ghirahim deserves a better set than Ganon. So, to summarize, you're buttmad because we dare to think of having someone other than your Tumblr god in Smash 4.

That's a pretty cool story, bro. Go back to the Ghirahim thread.
I can only hope for your mental state that you actually didn't read my post and think that was what I said. And like what Smashchu said, chill with the drama. Why am I being accused of being buttmad? :laugh: When I say you guys are fanboys, your reaction is suppose to be to defend that and prove me wrong, not prove me RIGHT with a reaction like that haha.

What is extra funny, is that I did go back to the Ghirahim thread, AND YOU FOLLOWED ME.

Bahahah!~
 

Lucidthought

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girls...girls. you're both fighting for characters who aren't likely to get in...kiss and makeup. call it a day :)
 

Holder of the Heel

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I'm sorry if I've offended anyone here. *kisses and makes up*

Tingle does get props though because he does exemplify the joke character more than Groose, and reoccurs. That and the items Groose would have to use Tingle could do better and has more. Though if he had to be a character, it'd be best to just make him his own franchise. Still see him more so as an assist once more, he made for a good one in Brawl in all honesty. And also Tingle does have a lot of people hating on him, he needs to stay in a smaller position that he does better.
 

Junahu

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Er, that is not what I said. I said that they make movesets that you wouldn't get in Smash Brothers because they are far more complex and tend to have things that a character we actually have would do...

...I've watch MYM and seen the sets, I also see sets that SSB4 speculators makes, I also see the sets that are actually in the games. There are differences, very, very, obvious differences.
And that's an overgeneralisation. A lot of MYM content does take that route, but not all of it does.

I'm so glad you know what is going on in Sakurai's head. .__. Why do all of these people pretend that their opinion is correct? Learn some humility people. D:
I don't know how the development of SSB4 works, nor do I know the decisions or issues that arise during it. But I do attempt to look at the clear strings of logic left behind in Brawl, and use those as a platform to help predict elements of SSB4's design. It's called Forecasting, and it's a particularly important skill to develop for speculation threads such as this.
Ganondorf in his current moveset form is a barrier to Ghirahim's inclusion in SSB4, I am very certain of that.




And on topic: while I didn't have any strong opinion on the topic before, the informative discussion in this thread has convinced me; Groose will be an Assist Trophy, and there won't be any further Zelda additions to the roster (outside of a possible Toon Zelda/Tetra)
 

BKupa666

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As long as Groose's Theme becomes selectable music on the inevitable Skyward Sword stage, I am perfectly content. All other content related to the character is icing on the cake.
 

Jakor

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I don't think Groose would make an interesting character in Smash, since his moveset would be way too generic. There are also tons of more deserving Zelda characters which should get in before him.
 
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