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With zero solid gameplay information, zero screenshots or videos of any kind, it's too dang early to even consider worrying what's going to happen in Sm4sh (or truly hype for it for that matter.)

Plus the Sakurai NEVER made any of the 3 Smash games, that are out, with competition in mind. He always made them party games. We, the community, MADE the games competitive ourselves.

Not really

Fighting games by nature are competitive since the goal is always to beat your opponent. Now for tournament play though, I would agree with you

It'd be hard to make a game like this not competitive. As long as they don't add more random stuff like tripping it'll be competitively fun.

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Also "accessible" =\= "family party game". I believe accessibility is more along the lines of what Sakurai wants for Smash 4.

This is Namco Bandai, a company with experience in multiple fighting games, including Tekken, Soul Calibur, and Outfoxies (pretty much the precursor to smash, which included much of the staff of HAL Laboratories, who were the primary developers of Smash 64 and Melee).

Compared to Game Arts, Monolith Soft, and CERO, aka the Brawl developers (who had no experience developing fighting games), this is much better.

Especially since Namco Bandai knows how to make their fighting games fun for everyone, how to make a great online multiplayer experience, make a fairly good story mode (Soul Calibur II!), can make a fairly balanced fighting game (and they're probably pro-patches for glitches, animation bugs, and way overpowered/underpowered stuff), and they know how to add loads of content.

Wario Bros. said:

With zero solid gameplay information, zero screenshots or videos of any kind, it's too dang early to even consider worrying what's going to happen in Sm4sh (or truly hype for it for that matter.)

Plus the Sakurai NEVER made any of the 3 Smash games, that are out, with competition in mind. He always made them party games. We, the community, MADE the games competitive ourselves.

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is that why I hate Brawl so much?

I don't see how there is anything wrong in expecting this game to be terrible random happy camper time to be honest.

Either you're right, and you at least don't have to be disappointed. Plus the whole being right thing can help a fragile ego I guess.

Or you're wrong, and you are, at the VERY least, pleasantly surprised, if not more.

RafeVL said:

The developers already said they are going for a family party game and aren't trying to make it a competitive game. I'm not sure I should even bother with this new game. I'll probably stick with SSBM. I'm worried they're going to ruin it. How do you feel about them trying to take away the competitive scene?

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If you don't buy it, at least give it a shot imo. Worst thing that can happen is you don't like it.

RafeVL said:

The developers already said they are going for a family party game and aren't trying to make it a competitive game. I'm not sure I should even bother with this new game. I'll probably stick with SSBM. I'm worried they're going to ruin it. How do you feel about them trying to take away the competitive scene?

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So Long as there are more characters, I couldnt care less.
Maybe I was to young and to late for melee(got the game 4 years after it came out cuz I couldnt afford a gamecube and I still had Smash for the N64) but I bought a Wii just becuz brawl came out and got brawl on its release date. I thought it was a lot easier than melee because it let you have some sick air time like those pros in the melee combo videos somehow had.

RafeVL said:

The developers already said they are going for a family party game and aren't trying to make it a competitive game. I'm not sure I should even bother with this new game. I'll probably stick with SSBM. I'm worried they're going to ruin it. How do you feel about them trying to take away the competitive scene?

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I'm fine with them doing this. Melee was my least favorite of the three anyway. It wasn't as fun for me to play as the original game, and it doesn't have near as much content as Brawl.

Every game has had it's own feel to it though, so I'm sure SSB4 will too. It's not going to be Melee 2.0 or Brawl 2.0.

DarkShadow20 said:

I'm fine with them doing this. Melee was my least favorite of the three anyway. It wasn't as fun for me to play as the original game, and it doesn't have near as much content as Brawl.

Every game has had it's own feel to it though, so I'm sure SSB4 will too. It's not going to be Melee 2.0 or Brawl 2.0.

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most definitely. this game will be different than both Melee and Brawl. That's how Sakurai likes doing his games, each different from the other. I liked both Melee and Brawl, and I'm sure I'll like the new one, despite whatever differences (unless they really ruin the gameplay).

Accessibility is not the opposite of fast-paced games. Why does Sakurai think that you can't make a game accessible and highly competitive? That doesn't stop noobs from playing Halo. My friend sucks **** at Melee. Pure golden ****. But he says he likes the feel of Melee more than Brawl. He also said he didn't even notice the speed until I pointed it out, multiple friends of mine actually said this. So I mean who the **** does Sakurai want to play this game? Kids with autism? Like even my Grandpa said Brawl sucks.

As far as I can see, removal of L-canceling and the wavedash (which was a glitch based on the directional airdodge and ground interacting) were good ideas, just done poorly. Slow characters who needed the old L-cancel got worked over hard by this change. Speed up their recoveries before buffing recoveries on the speed demons, and they'll be viable.

Give us a game that's slightly faster-paced than Brawl (but not to Melee's 'turbo 10', thank you), with decent, but not excessive hitstun, and REMOVE THE GODDAMNED TRIPPING, and I think there won't be any barriers to the game's entry into a competitive scene.

I'm not trying to argue, but aren't you people a little obssessed with competitiveness? I agree on removing tripping, but glitches are glitches, if the developers see these so-called "advanced techniques" as game breaking and ruining their views on the game, they have the legitimacy to remove them as they will. after all, the creator has the right to tweak his own creation if it's not what he originally intended, so...

if you don't get what I mean, then I'll leave this to you: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreatorBacklash

brawl has plenty of skill. People need to stop acting like any joe can jump on brawl and do just fine vs good players. A good player will 3 stock them every time. Brawl has a different kind of skill, a different kind of fight than melee does. Still has plenty of skill. My only problem with brawl is chain grabs.

Also about meta knight, He is the only S tier character brawl has, how many does melee have?

^
Spoke the ****ing truth.

If you ask me I say the reason why Namco Bandai are in on this project is because maybe Sakurai cant seem to find a way to make this game both competitive to vets and accesible to newcomers who just like playing for the Nintendo mascots and the fun of it all.

I think thats why NB was asked to help achieve that goal. Which maybe would explain why Sakurai would leave character balancing in their hands and maybe many more mechanics in the game like wavedashing, removing tripping etc. It may be up to NB to assist Project Sora to find that perfect balance between making a great somewhat deep fighting game and a game just to play with friends. Look at Mortal Kombat....They found a pretty good way to please both crowds and it was a very successful game both reviews/fan feedback and sales wise.

AIM0001 said:

If you ask me I say the reason why Namco Bandai are in on this project is because maybe Sakurai cant seem to find a way to make this game both competitive to vets and accesible to newcomers who just like playing for the Nintendo mascots and the fun of it all.

I think thats why NB was asked to help achieve that goal. Which maybe would explain why Sakurai would leave character balancing in their hands and maybe many more mechanics in the game like wavedashing, removing tripping etc. It may be up to NB to assist Project Sora to find that perfect balance between making a great somewhat deep fighting game and a game just to play with friends. Look at Mortal Kombat....They found a pretty good way to please both crowds and it was a very successful game both reviews/fan feedback and sales wise.

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I must agree with this. If Project Sora and Namco Bandai achieve that balance and Nintendo gives good amount publicity to the game, there's no shred of doubt that this game could be the most successful entry on the Smash Bros. franchise.

sonus said:

brawl has plenty of skill. People need to stop acting like any joe can jump on brawl and do just fine vs good players. A good player will 3 stock them every time. Brawl has a different kind of skill, a different kind of fight than melee does. Still has plenty of skill. My only problem with brawl is chain grabs.

Also about meta knight, He is the only S tier character brawl has, how many does melee have?

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actually brawl's tierlist is down 1 spot each, probably to avoid a s***storm like from list #2.

it goes:
SS=God
S=Top
A=High
B=Upper/High mid
C=middle
D=low Mid
E=Low
F=Bottom
G=Gimmick/Joke

just move each character up a spot and the list is this. they just don't like using the term "God tier."

Well they can't continue down the same path as Brawl for the following reasons:

• The well of Nintendo nostalgia has run dry. What's left to pull from is not as exciting to the audience at large. They need another big selling point beyond simply more fan service content.
  
• Parts of the gaming press have adopted the criticism of Brawl. You see it in some of playstation All-star's mixed previews, and Project M's positive press. Brawl has to some extent become a reference point for an approach to avoid.
• The mechanics jump from 64 to Melee was a large. Faster pacing, more moves/approach options, added depth and longevity. In retrospect, Brawl did far more retooling and cutting than expanding on the core gameplay. Under the circumstances, repeating that approach won't pass again.
• SSB4 will inevitably be compared to not only Brawl and Melee, but also Project M and Playstation All-stars. If Sora and Namco want to exceed expectations, they'll have to drop some of the goals with Brawl and focus purely on making the best smash tittle yet.

El Duderino said:

Well they can't continue down the same path as Brawl for the following reasons:

• The well of Nintendo nostalgia has run dry. What's left to pull from is not as exciting to the audience at large. They need another big selling point beyond simply more fan service content.
  
• Parts of the gaming press have adopted the criticism of Brawl. You see it in some of playstation All-star's mixed previews, and Project M's positive press. Brawl has to some extent become a reference point for an approach to avoid.
• The mechanics jump from 64 to Melee was a large. Faster pacing, more moves/approach options, added depth and longevity. In retrospect, Brawl did far more retooling and cutting than expanding on the core gameplay. Under the circumstances, repeating that approach won't pass again.
• SSB4 will inevitably be compared to not only Brawl and Melee, but also Project M and Playstation All-stars. If Sora and Namco want to exceed expectations, they'll have to drop some of the goals with Brawl and focus purely on making the best smash tittle yet.

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agreed. Project Sora and Namco Bandai must be aware of all this. if they fail to create a game that balances well the gameplay and the characters, it may be a flop. but I trust that they will bring a great game. Namco Bandai has a good reputation with fighting games (and gaming in general) to defend, so this is a good opportunity for them to show their worth.

It definitely won't flop, but they run the risk of loosing strength of the brand if they fail to move the series forward commercially, critically, and competitively to an extent.

RafeVL said:

The developers already said they are going for a family party game and aren't trying to make it a competitive game.

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we knew this since 1999-2000

double post *facepalm*

The way I believe SSB4 wil turn out is two-fold.

- They will make it thrilling and fun, so that noobies and families can have easy access to the enjoyment of it all.

- There will be many competitive move sets and ways to play, however even though these exist the families will like them not for the competitiveness, but for the thrill.

We will use it for the competitiveness.

^ So Pretty much they turn it into Pokemon. I'm cool with that.

sonus said:

brawl has plenty of skill. People need to stop acting like any joe can jump on brawl and do just fine vs good players. A good player will 3 stock them every time. Brawl has a different kind of skill, a different kind of fight than melee does. Still has plenty of skill.

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The thing with Brawl is it requires less technical and strategic skill than Smash 64 or Melee. I practically mastered Brawl technically within the first year of its' release. With Melee, it takes loads of skill and practice to come anywhere near mastering that game. I haven't played Brawl competitively in years, but I bet I could master the technical aspects quickly.

As for strategically, with Melee, you and your opponent have a lot more viable options (as well as a larger % of the roster), so it is very hard to counter all of that. With Brawl, most of the strategic game comes down to shield-attack-grab-run away, which is much easier to translate. With a quick mastery of the technical game, viewing a few great videos of each character, and going to a few tournaments, I could much more easily get a grasp of Brawl than I could really any other fighting game... by being patient and stalling.

sonus said:

Also about meta knight, He is the only S tier character brawl has, how many does melee have?

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I believe 4 or 5, none of which are much better than the other. Also, Meta Knight is a "SS" tier last I checked.

sonus said:

brawl has plenty of skill. People need to stop acting like any joe can jump on brawl and do just fine vs good players. A good player will 3 stock them every time. Brawl has a different kind of skill, a different kind of fight than melee does. Still has plenty of skill. My only problem with brawl is chain grabs.

Also about meta knight, He is the only S tier character brawl has, how many does melee have?

Click to expand...

I play both Brawl and Melee. I can literally play everyone in Brawl without any problems and still win just because I can play intelligently and adapt, which is a crucial aspect of Brawl's metagame, but the fact of the matter is the game is extremely easy from a technical perspective, which is one of the main issues; there is a skill ceiling. While you can become good in that game and win, everyone usually ends up playing in the same manner, which is just being extremely defense oriented, and its honestly not that exciting. Brawl literally forced players to play in a singular fashion.

Brawl has many more problems than Chain Grabs. It has extremely overpowered shielding that rewards the player for camping, jab/laser locks, Meta Knight planking, Terribly placed hitboxes on characters, dumb stage spikes, super armor on all grabs, characters don't carry momentum when running and jumping and the design itself seems like it was half finished and flawed. Why would a character like Ganondorf even exist in the same engine as a character like Meta Knight? Who literally has unlimited freedom of mobility and offense.

Melee on the other hand requires you to be more diligent with each character. Everyone was able to play in their own way without being forced to play in a specific fashion. The fact that there was only 1 S tier character doesn't necessarily help your argument, as this character can almost effortlessly beat 75% of the entire cast. Even though you had Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik etc as high teirs they weren't unbeatable and shared their flaws. Fox and Falco were easy to combo and gimp, and if you didn't space well with Marth you would get punished. Sheik doesn't necessarily have any glaring weaknesses besides her bad short hop, which stopped her from applying as much SH aerial pressure.

Even though this was the case, Melee characters all had the potential to beat top tiers. People like Timmy & Tommy, Masashi, Ultra Luigi, Eggz, Simbda, Jmex, Gimpyfish, were all capable of playing low tiers and beating most people. Not only were the players intelligent, they wren;t held back by an extremely limited system.

I mean, just look at Ganon from Melee to Brawl...that was an awful transition.

Frostwraith said:

I'm not trying to argue, but aren't you people a little obssessed with competitiveness? I agree on removing tripping, but glitches are glitches, if the developers see these so-called "advanced techniques" as game breaking and ruining their views on the game, they have the legitimacy to remove them as they will. after all, the creator has the right to tweak his own creation if it's not what he originally intended, so...

if you don't get what I mean, then I'll leave this to you: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreatorBacklash

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It sounds more like the developers are just whining about things for no reason. Anyone who played competitive smash played the way they anted and casual people played the way they wanted. It didn't affect the sales or popularity what so ever.

We aren't really concerned with Advanced Techniques as we are concerned with balancing issues. There was a lot behind Melee beyond the typical "glitches" that people tend to poke at just to try and aggravate people.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=97603

Above all else we are concerned about Sakurai's absurd philosophy about competitive smash as a whole, as he tends to pick every bad apple from the bunch and focus on the negative aspects of a competitive gaming atmosphere. I was there at E For All among many of the veteran smashers. The Brawl demo was an amazing game. It featured Dash Dancing in it's Melee form, you were capable of wavelanding by doing a momentum carrying aerial low to the ground, like Mario's back air (You were able to SH back bair, back air again immediately to waveland and jab/utilt or whatever), fast falling aerials canceled them and some characters retained some properties from their Melee movesets, such as peaches F-throw being able to kill. It also had chargeable smashes with the C-stick, double stick DI, crouch canceling and Meta Knight's only solid kill move was his Forward smash, which killed on a 130% average at edge. The demo had a very ideal balance of competitive aspects while remaining accessible The Nintendo representatives took advantage of this and narked on us about every thing we found.

I'm thankful that Sakurai is making another smash. I love smash whether it's competitive or not. I just don't appreciate how Sakurai has deliberately made his long time fanbase suffer while embracing the fan base who will stop playing the game after a couple of months. This is very hypocritical coming from a man who is constantly spouting about his creativity.

just laying it out here: in an interview for Kid Icarus, Sakurai stated he was catering to make the game for a hardcore market.

along with his statement about focusing on enhancing the game over roster, this may be hints that his philosophy has changed.

lordvaati said:

just laying it out here: in an interview for Kid Icarus, Sakurai stated he was catering to make the game for a hardcore market.

along with his statement about focusing on enhancing the game over roster, this may be hints that his philosophy has changed.

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I hope you're right. Sakurai created something that most developers can only dream of, a game that can be competitive, casual, innovative and frantic. I would hate to see him simplify his system.

Eternal phoenix Fire said:

I hope you're right. Sakurai created something that most developers can only dream of, a game that can be competitive, casual, innovative and frantic. I would hate to see him simplify his system.

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guess if the game can cater to all types of players... they're gonna print money, a lot of money.

Frostwraith said:

guess if the game can cater to all types of players... they're gonna print money, a lot of money.

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Wrong analogy. Printing money is used to describe cheap tricks like "Gotta catch 'em all" while making you buy both games to do so, or making a family-party game that little Suzy and Grandpa Joe can pick up while throwing away any amount of longevity to the game.

Catering to more than one group of players is called "good strategy."

You mean catering to more than one group of players is called "flawed", I hope.

Catering to both Hardcore Max and Grandpa Herbert never works.

You're right, Melee was an awful game. Just the worst. Almost as bad as aLttP.