Final Smashes: Meter or Item?

Retroend · Jun 27, 2012

If there'a already a thread for this, or if this type of discussion isn't allowed, please disregard and lock this thread.

So ever since brawl came out, Sakurai actually decided to introduce final smashes. The idea was interesting and new to say the least. However every character had only 1 final smash. and on top of that, you needed an item in order to use it. Seeing how Namco is now getting involved in the development, I've been wondering if there will be a meter for final smashes instead of using a smash ball. If anything, I would like to see meter gain in this smash bros. Final smashes can do ridiculous amount of damage instead of instantly k.o.ing your opponent or give them status ailments or restore their own damage percentage. Also, seeing the variety of fighting games such as umvc3 and sc5, i think each character should have more than 1 final smash, maybe up to 2 or 3. Here's and example:

Kirby:

Level 1 FS: Cook Kirby
Level 2 FS: Mic Kirby
Level 3 FS: Crash Kirby

I think that final smashes should be part of a character's moveset already applied by building meter for it instead of relying on an item for it. And all cases, items are turned off in the tournament scene, and the smash ball would be illegal and final smashes would not be part of the tournament scene; even if you turned the smash ball to appear very rarely, it would still pop up randomly more often than it should. Also pity final smashes? That's debatable.

So anyway what do you guys think? should final smashes be built around meter or still use an item? And should there be more than 1 final smash for each character? Discuss.

Super FOG · Jun 27, 2012

The game should feature the two options, but I prefer that Smash Ball should work just like in Kirby Air Ride and Kid Icarus Uprising: The Smash Ball should be divided in 3 parts, collecting all of them, you''ll able to use your Final Smash.

I like the idea of attacking and breaking an orb to enable your special attack, and I like the power to turn the flow of a match. I think that FSes were banned from tournament scene because it's impossible to determine how much of damage is necessary to break the Ball, you were able to preview the Smash Ball appearence (the screen lightly flashes and the crowd makes a "wow" wailing), you were able to trick your foe to set up some tricky FSes, and you were able to make the opponent fumble the Ball.

I don't care about the effects or power level of Final Smashes (since the move's name is FINAL Smash), but in Brawl I missed some giant beams or massive combos, many of FSes were transformations, and the duration of some transformations was the real problem about the balance of Final Smash game, and also FSes were fired off by just tapping B button without any direction, this command should be changed by an A+B combination.

smashmanx7 · Jun 27, 2012

A meter seems to PlayStation allstar how bout the smashball but with optional specials like how there is optional taunts.
IE:Like right trigger to to so and so.

Zzuxon · Jun 27, 2012

I think the final smash should be activated with a smash ball, but there should be a 6th special introduced, powerful, but not as powerful as a final smash, used by filling a gague

Venus of the Desert Bloom · Jun 27, 2012

I think it should remain an item however it should be improved. I am not sure how it can be improved at this point but it seems to broken to me and based on chance.

A meter seems interesting but it makes Smash seem like a regular fighter. It works hence why the meter is a fighting game staple. But what makes Smash unique is how different it is to other fighters due to it's departure of major fighting elements.

Retroend · Jun 28, 2012

The thing is i speak from a competitive view point, not a casual. although both options could be applied i'd rather have 1 though. And as you said, having the smash ball makes it more based on chance, which wouldn't roll with the tournament scene.

Venus of the Desert Bloom · Jun 28, 2012

Exactly. Maybe in order to get a smash ball, you have to collect smaller ones. Smash Balls wreck the competitive scene and that's a shame because it was one of the selling points of SSBB.

I think it should remain in a similar form but changed to appeal both casuals and competitive. However, it should just be one options and not two in order to keep it simple and unique to Smash.

Retroend · Jun 28, 2012

well you can't please everyone. i still say meter gain. also having more than 1 FS would be interesting, but again i'm brought to my attention the balance of these FS. Umvc3 and SC5 have the right idea with specials and meter, but again does that make them balanced? Can't say they are.

Big-Cat · Jun 28, 2012

Make the Smash Ball as a meter filling item.

soviet prince · Jun 28, 2012

I just say keep the final smashes the way they are and have a critical smash that can be earned by fighting other players. This is one thing I love about psas it's promotes fighting rather then camping

gothrax · Jun 28, 2012

To be honest i think that if making final smashes is really as hard as it seems.
sakurai should just cut them. would you rather nintendo spent months/years extra just to make an attack which is cool the first time you see it, but probably wont be used in actual tourneys? Or story mode for that matter...

BSP · Jun 28, 2012

Meter built FSs would give them more of a shot at being used in tournaments since it wouldn't be random

If they go with meter, I just hope the FSs are optional and balanced, because if not...oh boy.

Retroend · Jun 28, 2012

BSP said:
Meter built FSs would give them more of a shot at being used in tournaments since it wouldn't be random

If they go with meter, I just hope the FSs are optional and balanced, because if not...oh boy.

true thats what i'm concerned about. meter would be less of chance being involved, unless some FS are revolved around that, which is something that would be avoided. i mean come on, i've seen the latest fighting games and they use supers in tournaments without the need of an item. i'd like to see that in smash bros. this time around.

Big-Cat · Jun 28, 2012

BSP said:
Meter built FSs would give them more of a shot at being used in tournaments since it wouldn't be random

If they go with meter, I just hope the FSs are optional and balanced, because if not...oh boy.

Here's what I've thought to be the best solution. Instead of making the Final Smash the super move, make it more like the Astral Finishes of BlazBlue. These would be cinematic K.Os and can only be activated if it's down to two people left and the opponent has one stock left. As a result, you now also have the Super Smash which is pretty much your typical super you see in other fighters - a more balanced Final Smash if you will. A lot of the current Final Smashes could be tamed down to this state.

Mario & Sonic Guy · Jun 28, 2012

I'm all fine with the Smash Ball, but I think it should just be grabbed, instead of players having to relentlessly attack it. Final Smashes should also be categorized as the following...

Offensive: The Final Smash is an actual attack. Examples include Mario Finale, Triforce Slash, Volt Tackle, and Aura Storm. Zero Laser and Power Suit Samus would also count as offensive type Final Smashes, but with the added effect of changing Samus into Zero Suit Samus and vice versa.

Power-Up: The Final Smash offers various equipments to the character. Examples include Super Dragon, Landmaster, Octopus, and Super Sonic.

Transformation: The Final Smash causes the user to transform, while being able to execute the same kind of attacks as the normal characters; f-smash, u-air, specials, etc.. Examples include Giga Bowser and Wario-Man.

Retroend · Jun 28, 2012

Mario_and_Sonic_Guy said:
I'm all fine with the Smash Ball, but I think it should just be grabbed, instead of players having to relentlessly attack it. Final Smashes should also be categorized as the following...

Offensive: The Final Smash is an actual attack. Examples include Mario Finale, Triforce Slash, Volt Tackle, and Aura Storm. Zero Laser and Power Suit Samus would also count as offensive type Final Smashes, but with the added effect of changing Samus into Zero Suit Samus and vice versa.

Power-Up: The Final Smash offers various equipments to the character. Examples include Super Dragon, Landmaster, Octopus, and Super Sonic.

Transformation: The Final Smash causes the user to transform, while being able to execute the same kind of attacks as the normal characters; f-smash, u-air, specials, etc.. Examples include Giga Bowser and Wario-Man.

i'm naive about this, maybe, but has there ever been a competitive fighting game that has used items in the tourney scene? if not, i dont expect the smash ball to be allowed in tourneys. like i said, having the smash ball on would make a match rely on chance, rather than skill.

BSP · Jun 28, 2012

IIRC Melee did use them for a bit, but they got shut off of course.

Mario & Sonic Guy · Jun 28, 2012

retro gamer said:
i'm naive about this, maybe, but has there ever been a competitive fighting game that has used items in the tourney scene? if not, i dont expect the smash ball to be allowed in tourneys. like i said, having the smash ball on would make a match rely on chance, rather than skill.

Well that's why the Smash Ball is classified as an item. If it's turned OFF, Final Smashes would be disabled.

The meter would not be a smart move if you asked me. After all, in Mario Sports Mix, you can't turn off Special Shots at all.

Lechteron · Jun 28, 2012

I had an idea earlier this week. Crowd Pleasing. From the very beginning there's always been an unseen crowd watching every match so why not incorporate them in to the match? Have a meter that slowly fills up as you make the crowd gasp as you barely make it back to the stage, or as the crowd cheers your KOs, or as you taunt and get the crowd riled up. Final Smashes should probably be toned down a bit though and there should be an option to have them on or off, of course.

Retroend · Jun 28, 2012

Lechteron said:
I had an idea earlier this week. Crowd Pleasing. From the very beginning there's always been an unseen crowd watching every match so why not incorporate them in to the match? Have a meter that slowly fills up as you make the crowd gasp as you barely make it back to the stage, or as the crowd cheers your KOs, or as you taunt and get the crowd riled up. Final Smashes should probably be toned down a bit though and there should be an option to have them on or off, of course.

lol, just like paper mario 2! thats a really interesting idea. i still think that if you're blocking, taking damage or doing damage to your opponent you should have meter gain but crowd pleasing... thats an interesting twist.

Big-Cat · Jun 28, 2012

I agree with retro. The normal means of building meter should be there, but this crowd pleasing/underdog aspect of meter building seems like something Nintendo would do - a different spin on the tried and true meter. Another thing would be that certain acts such as reversals could exchange meter points between each person - highlighting the momentum behind every fighting game match.

Mario & Sonic Guy · Jun 28, 2012

From what I recall, the crowd tends to cheer for the leading player when his/her current damage is over 100%. Of course, this is just an aesthetic scenario with no real purpose (except in Melee, where it offers the player bonus points).

DakotaBonez · Jun 28, 2012

I think there should be a different button to activate the final smash besides the characters Neutral B.
Lotsa new buttons on the WiiU Pro controller. One of the bumpers maybe?
Wiimotes could be changed to shake to activate final smash (Sorry For Those Who Use Shake Smash

) And the tablet has those clicky sticks so maybe? The possibilites are endless!
One of the best things to come outta Brawl was the ability to assign the buttons to do whatever ya want!

Big-Cat · Jun 28, 2012

Who's to say it can't be changed into an integrated gameplay mechanic?

Frostwraith · Jun 28, 2012

they could put a Final Smash meter that once filled, it would activate the FS aura (like getting the Smash Ball). the Smash Ball would fill the meter instantly, giving immediate access to the move.

I'm not opposed to the idea of various Final Smashes per character. these could be selected before the match (like selecting Ultra combos in Street Fighter 4).

every character could have 2 or 3 Final Smashes...

a set for Luigi:
Negative Zone - same as Brawl
Poltergust 3000 - vaccums the foe then launches him in the stick's direction, default would be to his front
Lightning Finale - based on Mario & Luigi RPGs and similar to Mario's Mario Finale, Luigi unleashes a massive bolt on his front.

Mario & Sonic Guy · Jun 28, 2012

For the Wii U Pro Controller and Game Pad, you can just press ZR to execute your character's Final Smash. That way, the standard special can still be utilized if you have the Smash Ball.

Super FOG · Jun 28, 2012

BSP said:
Meter built FSs would give them more of a shot at being used in tournaments since it wouldn't be random

If they go with meter, I just hope the FSs are optional and balanced, because if not...oh boy.

I just expect more giant beams and massive combos as Final Smashes. The main cause that FSes are disbalanced is because many of them are transformations. Mario and Ike have the most visually beautiful FSes in the game, but in terms of power they're ridiculous compairing them with a Landmaster or Super Sonic.

they could put a Final Smash meter that once filled, it would activate the FS aura (like getting the Smash Ball). the Smash Ball would fill the meter instantly, giving immediate access to the move.

Agreed, but I would change some Smash Ball rules:

Smash Balls shoud be get ONLY with direct and physical attacks;
A small text line on screen will warn about Smash Ball appearence (just like the Daybreak parts on KIU);
To build the Final Smash gauge, it will be required attack your opponent with more standard moves than special moves;
Extremely precise dodges and sweet-spotted smashes will boost the FS gauge filling.

~ Valkyrie ~ · Jun 28, 2012

Lechteron said:
I had an idea earlier this week. Crowd Pleasing. From the very beginning there's always been an unseen crowd watching every match so why not incorporate them in to the match? Have a meter that slowly fills up as you make the crowd gasp as you barely make it back to the stage, or as the crowd cheers your KOs, or as you taunt and get the crowd riled up. Final Smashes should probably be toned down a bit though and there should be an option to have them on or off, of course.

Woow, best idea I've ever heard. Indeed sounds like what TTYD did but this would give an all new depth for the ever-old meter mechanic. I don't see how this would end up looking wierd, it's more like situationally occurring event and encourages the players to fight at their best.

volbound1700 · Jun 30, 2012

I am a fan of making it a requirement that each character has to hit the ball 3-4 times. So no having Wario pound it 3 times without getting it and then Lucas sending his pk ball and getting it after one hit (I have a friend who uses Lucas in item matches and Lucas always seems to get the ball, usually in one hit, with his pk ball attack). Yoshi also seems to get it easier.

Also no ****ting ones (a la Jigglypuff and DK). No ones you can do mid-air (a la Sonic, Lucas, Ness) or make them all mid-air. No similar Smash moves (Fox, Wolf, and Falcos final smash for example).

stan423321 · Jun 30, 2012

Bunch of ideas of mine. Let's say we want to leave basic idea of Smash Ball, but we recognise current implementation is bad.

Current problems with Smash Balls, as recognised by me:

They appear too often, leading to too often F.Smashes, leading to reduction of epicness of those
They appear in random places, randomly aiding people on bigger stages (like all items)
They break in an unfair way (as mentioned above)

The issue 2 is pretty much the easiest to deal with in specific case of Smash Ball. As it's supposed to be an epic McGuffin thing, we may add a "portal opening" animation before it's appearance. This reduces randomness. One could say it would be easy to win the race to the ball, but if ball is hard enough, this is not really a major advantage.

The obvious solution to issue 1 is reduction of frequency smash balls appear, but there is a better way to deal with the thing, and we already know it as Dragoon. Players didn't found it hard to understand the concept of this, so let's make it so you need to break 3 balls. This is a kind of a meter, but easy enough to be understood by everybody. The exact number may be of course changed. Smash Balls shall be not knocked out however. They should slowly come and come. I'm not sure shall someone using Final Smash reset the Smash Ball meters of other people, but this could again be an option.

I have a solution to issue 3. But some math follows.

Math heavy shortened version: For n players playing, Smash Ball contains a simulation of a point travelling through (n-1)-dimensional regular simplex, starting from center of it. A hit by a player moves the point towards the corner of simplex representing the player, with distance of travel depending linearly on force of attack and depending linearly on linear function of distance. If the point gets close enough to that corner, the ball is broken.

The players don't need to care about this, except hits by other players never help them. Ball could be colored so players know who's winning now, but it's not required.

Some math explanations. What is regular simplex, you ask? Well, for 2 players it's a line segment, for 3 a triangle with all edges equal, for 4 a regular tetrahedron better known to most of you as four-sided dice, and for more players it jumps to hyperspace but you get the idea. And there's a thing in the middle of it, that goes to vertex of the player who hits it.

The harder is the hit, the more it helps you. Moreover when you're winning - with the BALL, not the match - your hits get weaker, basically. This effect could diminish over time.

This obviously doesn't solve all problems, like Final Smash balancing. But it's a start, I guess.

The proposed crowd cheering controlled system is interesting, but I'd need more details to judge it. Specifically, does it work as a meter really, or you try to escalate the crowd's emotion to the level of basically mad? In both cases cheering system would need a significant revamp.

SmashChu · Jun 30, 2012

Venus of the Desert Bloom said:
Exactly. Maybe in order to get a smash ball, you have to collect smaller ones. Smash Balls wreck the competitive scene and that's a shame because it was one of the selling points of SSBB.

The game should not be designed around the competitive scene. Smash's success was it went away from competitive fighting games. Before Smash, every fighting game was focused only on pleasing the few tournament goers (it's why Street Fighter went dark for 10 years). Fixing the Smash Ball for competitive play is going backwards. It's why Brawl removed L-Canceling and wavedashing.

What I just described is why this topic is flawed. The only people who had a problem were competitive players who wanted "balance," or something. The Smash Ball fits into the context of Smash. It's an item, so it can be turned off if you don't like it. It also adds a new dynamic in that anyone could get their FS at anytime. That's how it works. These "solutions" don't work because they are trying to fix a problem that is defined wrong.

Retroend · Jun 30, 2012

the thing that i dont like about the smash ball is because of 2 things: its an item, and it distracts players from focusing on the match. meter is much better just because depending on your actions or if you take damage, you gain meter to use your final smash. now i think there should be 3 different levels of final smashes.

lvl 1 FS- causes huge damage percentage, but doesn't knock your opponent out (unless they have really high percentage damage.)

lvl 2 FS- should cause some stauist ailment, much like how luigis negative zone would put you to sleep, make your character dizzy, or put a flower on you. basically cause some kind of status ailment which could be anything depending on your character.

lvl 3 FS- should be a K.O. move. either by transformation or having the move do massive and knockback. this FS would be the hardest to build up, but its the most rewarding.

still thinking about how the crowd could be involved in meter gaining. if anything i always liked it when the crowd would cheer for my favorite character. kirby! kirby! kirby! kirby!

SmashChu · Jun 30, 2012

retro gamer said:
the thing that i dont like about the smash ball is because of 2 things: its an item, and it distracts players from focusing on the match. meter is much better just because depending on your actions or if you take damage, you gain meter to use your final smash. now i think there should be 3 different levels of final smashes.

1)Items are a part of Smash.
2)Items always take focus when they appear. It's not different than Pokeballs in the other two games.

stan423321 · Jun 30, 2012

SmashChu, I dare to disagree with your "There is no problem" stance. Let's put it this way - I'm in no way competetive player, my friends are not, and we all basically moan when Smash Ball appears for the fifth time during a 6-stock 2v2 match. If it's not a problem, I have no idea what is a problem, actually.

Super FOG · Jun 30, 2012

stan423321 said:
SmashChu, I dare to disagree with your "There is no problem" stance. Let's put it this way - I'm in no way competetive player, my friends are not, and we all basically moan when Smash Ball appears for the fifth time during a 6-stock 2v2 match. If it's not a problem, I have no idea what is a problem, actually.

6 STOCKS?!

This is a stock count for free-for-alls! Your matches should endure more than 7 minutes.

stan423321 · Jun 30, 2012

We have a simple system of basically lowering stock when matches end up being too long and the other way around. When we're tired (aka we play badly even by our standards), 6 stocks 2v2 match can take less than 5 minutes, and we don't believe it's too long.

Back to the argument, yes, we're casual Smash players and we find Smash Balls to frequent and not enough of a challenge to break.

Super FOG · Jun 30, 2012

stan423321 said:
We have a simple system of basically lowering stock when matches end up being too long and the other way around. When we're tired (aka we play badly even by our standards), 6 stocks 2v2 match can take less than 5 minutes, and we don't believe it's too long.

Back to the argument, yes, we're casual Smash players and we find Smash Balls to frequent and not enough of a challenge to break.

I also consider myself a casual Smash player, and I love FSes, I play with them always on.

Smash Balls are rarier when turned on alongside another items and set to Low spawn.

SmashChu · Jul 1, 2012

stan423321 said:
SmashChu, I dare to disagree with your "There is no problem" stance. Let's put it this way - I'm in no way competetive player, my friends are not, and we all basically moan when Smash Ball appears for the fifth time during a 6-stock 2v2 match. If it's not a problem, I have no idea what is a problem, actually.

1)You have yet to mention a problem
2)Your playing a 6 stock match. It's going to take a while.

BSP · Jul 1, 2012

Super FOG said:
I just expect more giant beams and massive combos as Final Smashes. The main cause that FSes are disbalanced is because many of them are transformations. Mario and Ike have the most visually beautiful FSes in the game, but in terms of power they're ridiculous compairing them with a Landmaster or Super Sonic.

That's not a bad idea and that would help with the balancing.

Johnknight1 · Jul 3, 2012

Honestly, I think if there is time, there should be an option for a Final Smash meter, just like there is an option for us to turn on the Smash Ball item. Who knows, maybe we could have both at the same time for additional madness, and we could even have multiple Final Smash attacks happen at the same time!

Going off my idea of having two final smashes (one super attack, one super transformation), there could be two levels; the first, a super attack; the second, a super transformation.

Maybe on the flip side for the Smash Ball, if you grab it, you can use your super attack, break it after several hits, you get your super transformation.

SmashChu said:
The game should not be designed around the competitive scene. Smash's success was it went away from competitive fighting games.

And making Smash Balls into a meter changes all of that all of a sudden=??? Adding it as an option changes one minute detail that many casual fans want, not the entire game.

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