Zoroark vs. Lucario... THE FINAL DEBATE

The Real Gamer · Jul 3, 2012

As we all know, there are multiple match ups between characters that are competing for a spot in Smash 4, but none of them are quite as compelling as the duel between the 2 popular Pokemon: Lucario and Zoroark.

How can we be so sure that they both won't make it? Well we can't be 100% positive, but enough evidence (as well as past history) has shown that the likelihood of both of them making it are pretty slim. One of the biggest pieces of evidence shown so far lies in Sakurai's quote here:

“It isn’t a matter of ‘if the next game has 50 characters, that’ll be enough,’" he said. "There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive…In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. I think a change of direction may be what’s needed.”

Based on the above quote, it's easy to assume that the Smash 4 development team is focusing more on each character feeling distinctive and balanced instead of building a large cast... There are most likely going to be a few cuts if new characters are to be added.

Another big reason we can assume both won't make it is because these 2 have a plethora of similarities: both were some of the first Pokemon revealed during their respective generations (and are seen as iconic to their gens as a result), both have starred in their own movies, both are bipedals and have human-like qualities about them, both have big fan-bases, both have pre-evolutions... The list goes on and on.

So the big questions are all that remain: Will Lucario be axed for Zoroark? Which of the 2 would you rather to see in Smash 4?

Happy debating!

EDIT: I have yet to see any definitive Zoroark vs. Lucario threads but if there is one out there and this thread needs to be locked as a result... SO be it!

Deleted member · Jul 3, 2012

The majority of Veteran cuts have been due to time restraints, so it's unlikely deliberate cuts will be made.
In fact, the only deliberate cuts have been Young Link, who was replaced by Toon Link, and Pichu, who was intended to be replaced by Plusle & Minun, but they too didn't make it for an unexplained reason that may be connected to the reason why Dixie Kong couldn't be a partner to Diddy.
However, unlike Lucario, both were merely clones of existing characters, and the Melee clones other than Ganondorf were expendable.

Also, Lucario is still prominent and advertised, even going as far as to have Zoroark as its rival.
More likely than not, that rivalry will carry into Smash.
Zoroark would also not be a suitable replacement, as her fighting style does not match Lucario's.

Also, I feel I must post this image again....

The Real Gamer · Jul 3, 2012

GoldenYuiitusin said:
The majority of Veteran cuts have been due to time restraints, so it's unlikely deliberate cuts will be made.
In fact, the only deliberate cuts have been Young Link, who was replaced by Toon Link, and Pichu, who was intended to be replaced by Plusle & Minun, but they too didn't make it for an unexplained reason that may be connected to the reason why Dixie Kong couldn't be a partner to Diddy.
However, unlike Lucario, both were merely clones of existing characters, and the Melee clones other than Ganondorf were expendable.

Also, Lucario is still prominent and advertised, even going as far as to have Zoroark as its rival.
More likely than not, that rivalry will carry into Smash.
Zoroark would also not be a suitable replacement, as her fighting style does not match Lucario's.

Also, I feel I must post this image again....

There's very little chance all 3 of the above mentioned will make the cut. Sakurai has said himself that he wants to avoid a huge roster and there will most likely be some cuts as a result.

Spire · Jul 3, 2012

Zoroark aesthetically reflects Lucario, whereas neither mirror Mewtwo. Why Lucario replaced Mewtwo I still don't understand. Lucario being a Fighting/Steel Pokémon should not play a smidgen like Mewtwo, but c'est la vie, that's how it is. Since Lucario currently takes up Mewtwo's slot and Zoroark is now (at least in the public eye) competing for it, I'd say the debate is between Lucario and Zoroark, with Mewtwo as a possible exclusive.

So, as the OP states: Lucario or Zoroark?

Zoroark.

edit: (and Mewtwo)

Curious Villager · Jul 3, 2012

I never really liked Lucario. But I love Zoroark. I loved using her in Pokemon White so I'm fine having her replace Lucario (With Mewtwo joining alongside her).

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pokemon Trainer, Zoroark and Mewtwo would make for quite a lovely Pokemon cast, at least for me.

Deleted member · Jul 3, 2012

The Real Gamer said:
There's very little chance all 3 of the above mentioned will make the cut. Sakurai has said himself that he wants to avoid a huge roster and there will most likely be some cuts as a result.

Saying that they've probably reached the limit of what's feasible does not translate into "there will not be a large roster".

He's already said that Smash 4 will have less new characters than Brawl, which is a given.
But at the same time, he counts Zero Suit and the Trainer's Pokemon as seperate entities, which means Brawl had 18.
So we know it's at most 17. Probably less like around the 12 range.

Opossum · Jul 3, 2012

Honestly, Golden's right. There's no reason they can't coexist. Easy as that.

Holder of the Heel · Jul 3, 2012

Yeah, this isn't a debate. We can just have both.

Or better yet, keep Lucario and get Mewtwo, because Mewtwo > Zoroark, case closed.

Bowserlick · Jul 3, 2012

While both can get in, I see Lucario (the new, exciting pokemon with a movie at the time) getting replaced with a pokemon with similar credentials.

Lucario offered the mechanic aura, as well as a fresh popular face.

Zoroark offers Illusion.

With the roster limit set to be around Brawl's roster size(alluded to by Sakurai himself), I think the likelihood of Lucario being cut for Zoroark higher.

Deleted member · Jul 3, 2012

Again, there is not "set limit". Unless he flat out says "The number of characters will be near the same as the previous game" or something like that, it's just people looking too much into what Sakurai has said. As usual.

Spire · Jul 3, 2012

How might Zoroark's illusion work? Might the side, down, and default specials be quasi-counters that copy the corresponding move of the opponent, only for an instant, rather than storing it a la Kirby?

The Real Gamer · Jul 3, 2012

Holder of the Heel said:
Yeah, this isn't a debate. We can just have both.

Or better yet, keep Lucario and get Mewtwo, because Mewtwo > Zoroark, case closed.

In your scenario Gen 5 gets no new rep.

I have a question for those who think for them both to make the roster: If Mewtwo got cut from the Brawl roster does that not mean Lucario has a good chance of meeting the same fate? And if Lucario does stay, why should Zoroark be chosen over another possible generation 5 rep that could differentiate itself from Lucario more?

Although Lucario and Zoroark are indeed different you can't deny their similarities.

Holder of the Heel · Jul 3, 2012

They are both humanoid-like, that is about it, but people don't really care.

And we don't NEED a fifth generation representative, people want Mewtwo more than anything. If Sakurai is willing to add TWO newcomers, then I'm all about getting me some Zoroark, but the likelihood he will kick out Lucario or sneak in before Mewtwo appears slim.

In terms of Zoroark versus other fifth generations, he has the most demand, fits really well and has a lot of unique and good set potential, and has plenty of spotlight. Betting on others is hoping Sakurai does one of those things where he does what he wants and happens to want exactly what you wanted, in other words, stabbing in the dark.

Awesome Triple Dash, just awesome.

--- · Jul 3, 2012

My reaction to the fact that this thread actually exists.

The Real Gamer · Jul 3, 2012

Well regardless of whether any of you think both will make it or not, it's still debate, so if you think both with make it then just argue why you think both will make it.

I just wanted to get some good discussion over the two.

SSGuy · Jul 3, 2012

neither. Dragonair!

Bowserlick · Jul 3, 2012

GoldenYuiitusin said:
Again, there is not "set limit". Unless he flat out says "The number of characters will be near the same as the previous game" or something like that, it's just people looking too much into what Sakurai has said. As usual.

Sakurai's quote: "‬In terms of quantity, ‬we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. ‬I think a change of direction may be what’s needed".

I think this means that the focus is going to be more on mechanics and flavors of the characters and maybe a de-emphasis on roster padding. Forty-two characters(move-sets) at the most I will guess.

The pattern between Smash games seems to point at around fifty characters for the next edition and I think Sakurai wanted to make sure that people do not expect this.

fogbadge · Jul 3, 2012

personally, seeing as how gen VI will have most likely stated by the time the next smash bros come out id say neither is likely and we'll have some one from gen VI

however if this is not this case then id be fine with either

Mario & Sonic Guy · Jul 3, 2012

There are no duplicate threads for this topic, so it'll stay active. However, please make sure that you keep all of your conversations clean.

DakotaBonez · Jul 3, 2012

So many reps from older pokemon generations. Either keep them ALL from older generations or EVEN the number of each out!
We got 5 reps from gen 1, and Lucario is from the 4th gen! Whatabout 2nd gen and 3rd gen!?!
Blaziken!!!

So in conclusion I'm all for Zoroark

Robert of Normandy · Jul 3, 2012

Well Lucario is a Fighting/Steel type, so he does have type advantage....

Kidding. No reason why they can't both be in, unless Sakurai doesn't want more than 5-7 newcomers and doesn't want to deal with people whining about clones, in which case Lucario will be in since porting a veteran is easier than adding a newcomer.

Opossum · Jul 3, 2012

I feel it is pretty important to mention that Sakurai has stated before that he likes all of Brawl's characters. This includes Lucario. Because he is fond of them, I find it unlikely that they will be excluded for anything other than lack of time.

Sunnysunny · Jul 3, 2012

Lucario did not replace mewtwo.

Both would have unique fighting styles (Lucario's aura gimmick and amazing frame traps, and zoroarks illusions) and both have large fan bases behind them. so I believe both would make the cut.

If I had to choose, i'd stick with Lucario. Gotta stick with my main.

I love em both equally though of course~ The other half of my avatar has Zoroark in it. =w=

Polimario · Jul 3, 2012

Personally, if Luke or Zoroark had to be cut, I wouldn't mind who made it, as I love both.

Although...I can see a lot being done with Zoroark and Illusion. What if Illusion was her Dspecial? She'd transform into another character, with the same weight, smash attacks, you know the drill. But, as Zoroark can't become a perfect copy, her specials don't become the ones of the one she copied.

The Real Gamer · Jul 3, 2012

Mario_and_Sonic_Guy said:
There are no duplicate threads for this topic, so it'll stay active. However, please make sure that you keep all of your conversations clean.

Sweetness. Will do.

Deleted member · Jul 3, 2012

Bowserlick said:
Sakurai's quote: "‬In terms of quantity, ‬we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. ‬I think a change of direction may be what’s needed".

I think this means that the focus is going to be more on mechanics and flavors of the characters and maybe a de-emphasis on roster padding. Forty-two characters(move-sets) at the most I will guess.

The pattern between Smash games seems to point at around fifty characters for the next edition and I think Sakurai wanted to make sure that people do not expect this.

Read the word that I underlined. That isn't a "set limit".
But you are right in that focus is going to be more on a change in gameplay rather than a crapton of Newcomers.

yani · Jul 3, 2012

Holder of the Heel said:
Yeah, this isn't a debate. We can just have both.

Or better yet, keep Lucario and get Mewtwo, because Mewtwo > Zoroark, case closed.

/thread

Kink-Link5 · Jul 3, 2012

I never understood what made random non-legendary Pokemon special enough to warrant inclusion, but then I've always liked Jiggz too, so I'm at a bit of a conundrum.

Isn't like Scizor or something the most popular Pokemon atm?

The Real Gamer · Jul 3, 2012

Kink-Link5 said:
I never understood what made random non-legendary Pokemon special enough to warrant inclusion, but then I've always liked Jiggz too, so I'm at a bit of a conundrum.

Isn't like Scizor or something the most popular Pokemon atm?

If we're talking about competitive Pokemon battling, yes.

But we're not, so no.

SmashChu · Jul 4, 2012

The Real Gamer said:
There's very little chance all 3 of the above mentioned will make the cut. Sakurai has said himself that he wants to avoid a huge roster and there will most likely be some cuts as a result.

Your taking it too literally. He's saying they are not just going to add characters, which is what they've always done.

Tollhouse · Jul 4, 2012

GoldenYuiitusin said:
Saying that they've probably reached the limit of what's feasible does not translate into "there will not be a large roster".

He's already said that Smash 4 will have less new characters than Brawl, which is a given.
But at the same time, he counts Zero Suit and the Trainer's Pokemon as seperate entities, which means Brawl had 18.
So we know it's at most 17. Probably less like around the 12 range.

I don't remember that ever being mentioned. Where was it ever confirmed there would be less newcomers?

Dark 3nergy · Jul 4, 2012

While i havent touched Zoroark in BW how exactly does his illusion ability work? and how would it work in terms of the SSB4 mechanics? Thats really the questions i need to have answered as far as Zoroark goes.

I love Lucario alot, got the t-shirt/plush and everything and i play him abit in brawl. If he gets replaced by Zoroark it wont make much of a difference to me i will try out the whole cast in SSB4 to see what changes were made.

Thrillhouse-vh. · Jul 4, 2012

Peaceful coexistence is not an option. The children of the original 150 must not be tainted by the Black

and White version

Pokemon.

Mewtwo must be back by any means necessary

Holder of the Heel · Jul 4, 2012

Less newcomers considering Sakurai questions the balance and distinction of the game, and the fact that the major characters have all been pretty much covered, so we are stuck with the residual majors, minors, and retros, so it is very possible we won't get too much in the character department. Sakurai also mentions 50 characters as an example of what could be done, and if you factor in transformations as he does, that still means 11 characters/transformations, which is less than what we got with Brawl, which was 17 I think.

ElvishSpirit · Jul 4, 2012

So, ya, I was thinking about this.

What about the wonders of downloadable content?

I can predict that Zoroark will be on-disc.
Mewtwo, can go either way.
But Lucario is a perfect candidate for DLC. He will be that character that wouldn't (at this very moment) be important to put back on the on-disc roster, but as a subject of fan service, 4-6 months later, Sakurai gives us the gift of Lucario!

Jhonnykiller45 · Jul 11, 2012

Mewtwo

MasterMushroom · Jul 11, 2012

ElvishSpirit said:
So, ya, I was thinking about this.

What about the wonders of downloadable content?

I can predict that Zoroark will be on-disc.

No, just no. Stop right there. Stopped reading, closed the tabs, ccleaner'd my computer, wiped my hard drive, threw laptop out the window, lit it on fire, recycle to contribute for humanity

ON DISK DLC? This is NOT capcom nor would anyone with common sense would ever accept, let alone want that road down the line

Jhonnykiller45 said:
Mewtwo

Cut Lucario, don't include Zorark, don't bring back mewtwo; add meowth :troll:

Aaven · Jul 11, 2012

Mewtwo.

Seriously though I really don't mind whether it's Lucario or Zoroark, I prefer Zoroark's design overall but I'm fine with either one.

Frostwraith · Jul 11, 2012

ElvishSpirit said:
So, ya, I was thinking about this.

What about the wonders of downloadable content?

I can predict that Zoroark will be on-disc.
Mewtwo, can go either way.
But Lucario is a perfect candidate for DLC. He will be that character that wouldn't (at this very moment) be important to put back on the on-disc roster, but as a subject of fan service, 4-6 months later, Sakurai gives us the gift of Lucario!

seriously, what kind of stupid idea is this? are you suggesting ON-DISC DLC?

like MasterMushroom said, this is NOT C(r)apcom, so don't even dare suggest such an abomination.

Sunnysunny · Jul 11, 2012

Hey, hey, chill out dude.
He didn't mention on disc dlc. He's saying since its unlikely for all 3 of the humanoid pokemon trio to be on the initial disc, if one of em doesn't make the cut they can be DLC once the development team has enough time to make the character they left out.

Its highly unlikely all will get in from the start~

When he says "on disc" he means if you buty the game, you get them on disc, without DLC. Kay?

Zoroark vs. Lucario... THE FINAL DEBATE

Smash Hero

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Hero

III

Puzzles...

Deleted member

Guest

Thread Title Changer

Fiat justitia, pereat mundus

Smash Hero

Deleted member

Guest

III

Smash Hero

Fiat justitia, pereat mundus

鉄腕

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Obsessed

Old rivalries live on!

The Depraved Optimist

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thread Title Changer

Blue-nubis

Smash Cadet

Smash Hero

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Banned via Warnings

Smash Journeyman

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Fiat justitia, pereat mundus

Smash Apprentice

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Vagabond With Flowers ~

The Demon King

Blue-nubis

Information

Network