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Floaties need a counter-pick stage.

Get Low

Get Low

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Obviously, the only legal counter-pick stage, Stadium, is geared mainly for use by spacies, as well as a few other random matchups (I like doing Peach dittos on Stadium, tehe). But as a floaty main, I find it unfair that I have to ban Stadium every time I play against a spacey player, and then they have the entire list of neutral stages that they can choose to counter-pick me to. Now this wouldn't be such a prominent issue if there weren't so many space animal players, but I'm guesstimating that nearly 50% of competitve Melee players either main, or have a pocket Fox or Falco. Therefore, I think it would be a little more fair if us floaty players, and possibly even some middle-weight characters, had their own counter-pick stage that they could rely on.

Personally, I love Mute City, but Brinstar would be neat too.

What are your guys' opinions on this?
 
Wake

Wake

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Thank you Based Mimi.
Yeah I think either PS should be banned, or floaties should get a non neutral counter pick as well. I personally hate Brinstar though :(. lol

Though I suppose it all depends on the TO anyways.
 
Get Low

Get Low

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JOS.fm said:
ummm, dreamland is a great counter pick stage. floaties can come back much more easily than ff's
Click to expand...
In my experience, spacies wreck floaties on Dreamland. They can just maneuver around the whole stage while our slow ***** try to catch up with them.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

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Bring back Mute City.

Oh wait then normal characters need a counterpick stage.

Bring back...

Uhh...

...Gimme a minute...

*tumbleweed*
 
oliman

oliman

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bring back mute city. it would be a breath of fresh air

plus its a fun stage dont even deny it
 
Froggy

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Get Low said:
Obviously, the only legal counter-pick stage, Stadium, is geared mainly for use by spacies, as well as a few other random matchups (I like doing Peach dittos on Stadium, tehe). But as a floaty main, I find it unfair that I have to ban Stadium every time I play against a spacey player, and then they have the entire list of neutral stages that they can choose to counter-pick me to. Now this wouldn't be such a prominent issue if there weren't so many space animal players, but I'm guesstimating that nearly 50% of competitve Melee players either main, or have a pocket Fox or Falco. Therefore, I think it would be a little more fair if us floaty players, and possibly even some middle-weight characters, had their own counter-pick stage that they could rely on.

Personally, I love Mute City, but Brinstar would be neat too.

What are your guys' opinions on this?
Click to expand...
Yup. Brinstar should come back. I hope more tournies follows FC example and bring more of the counterpick stages. Seemed like the people who attended the tourney really liked it.
 
Kink-Link5

Kink-Link5

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Wake said:
I say, all games on BF and YS.
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BF is mad ******** as a stage. Why is it even considered neutral with those walls and massive platforms? YS's dumb blast zones and Shy Guys are also questionable for a legal, let alone neutral, stage.

As for the OP, FD and FoD are already neutral stages that spacies have to choose between banning in several matchups (i.e. two of them: Peach and Marth). It isn't that floaty characters don't have a counterpick, it's that they don't have a strong, universal counterpick like Fox gets.
 
Prince_Abu

Prince_Abu

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peach already has a cp stage vs spacies (FD)

none of the other stages give spacies as much of an advantage as pokemon so its not a big deal to play on any of them or CP to any of them when spacies ban FD
 
Kal

Kal

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Yeah, stop trying to balance the game. Let's just agree that some **** isn't fun or worth competing in, like tiny amounts of variance as a result of negligble randomness, and get rid of it. But don't ever claim that an unbalanced game isn't fun or worth competing in. If you start banning stuff for that reason, then you're abusing the system.
 
Bones0

Bones0

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You may not agree with my threshold for what amount of randomness is tolerable, but whatever is chosen, it affects all characters as equally as possible. Will different stage lists benefit different characters? Obviously. What is important is that the benefits and detriments are not the reasons you are making those decisions. If you think Brinstar's randomness is tolerable enough for competition, fine, that's completely your opinion. But if you're going to suggest we play on Brinstar because it makes it easier for certain characters to win, then you're just being biased and ignorant of the fact that the game changes over time.
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

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The stage list is not an opportunity to balance the character roster.
 
Kimimaru

Kimimaru

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If the stage list favors some characters over others then I don't see why not, as long as the new stage choices are reasonably fair (ex. Brinstar).
 
Mahone

Mahone

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I love this thread...

Its so true i always have to autoban ps and jiggs cant cg on fd so im skrewd

Also dreamland being good isnt relevant becuse they just auto ban that

Dreamland does **** for floaties though getlow but unlike ps its not just strictly better for us, they can alter their playstyle to potentially negate some of the advantage

But others are right in sayin u dont use the stagelist to balance mus

HOWEVER i find it beyond ******** that ps is still around...

Why do we have ONE cp, doesnt that seem super odd, like at that point why not just have no cps

But ofc the counterargument i always hear is its neutral but u need an odd number for stage striking

Bull****. I cant believe that anyone really believes ps is as neutral as the main 5 (maybe fd is bad too with cg, im not gettin into that...)

But honestly i thought both rc and corneria were more fair than ps as cps... How has it lasted so long??????

Just cuz the nontransformed part is good doesnt justify its huge flaws... Ive listed them all like 100 times on this site so i wont do it again but i will say...

U can get infinited and u can ****ing fall through the goddamn stage! Is that not enough???

Ps NEEDS to be banned

I personally would like bf only or like all stages on... Anything in the middle honestly is awful cuz its soooo subjective... And i realize bf only kinda is too but **** that we all know in our hearts its the one TRUE stage

:phone:
 
EPsilon933

EPsilon933

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Corneria sucks. The floor isn't flat. Rainbow Cruise sucks. It's a plyaground to play tag on

Pokemon Stadium is almost a neutral. 3/5 stages are actually legit. It's only rock and fire that suck when players are separated by the walls. So like, 75+% of the time it's legit. Do we have to ban it for the sake of removing the counter pick rules?

What if Fox didn't exist or sucked in this game. Would anyone want this stage banned?
 
knightpraetor

knightpraetor

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stage selection is always subjective, but even so one stage would be too boring. 2 of PS's transformations are mad imbalanced though. Other than that the stage rocks though

I actually would not mind if stages were used to balance the game, and more stages would be fun. The problem is that in this game, most of the stages that were banned unbalance the game because they buff characters that don't need buffing.

in brood war, they always used stages to try to balance the game, though near the end of the game's life cycle i think they were more making stages to favor games that people wanted to watch despite nerfing zerg's chances vs terran.

but the difference is in brood war they had the ability to modify the stages. I feel like there are all sorts of possibilities for balanced stages if we just mod the wii and make stages. Are we not yet to the point where enough people have wiis for that to be possible? Honestly wiis are cheaper these days so I would just buy one if it became common to play tourneys on modified stages.
 
Mahone

Mahone

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EPsilon933 said:
What if Fox didn't exist or sucked in this game. Would anyone want this stage banned?
Click to expand...
YES. I hate ps more when its helping me than when its hurting me...

There are so many senerios that come up that make me hate it more than anything else in this game...

****

god damn it i hate ps soooo much... at least on corneria and rc u knew what to expect, it doesnt seem fair that sometimes the stages wont be jank and other times ull get only jank stages in tournament anyway...

i thought we all agreed we didnt like variance and randomness when we got rid of like 100 stages cuz they were "random"

what makes ps different?

YOU CAN FALL THROUGH THE GODDAMN STAGE... I JUST DID THIS TO YOU LIKE 2 WEEKS AGO, DO U NOT REMEMBER
 
knightpraetor

knightpraetor

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yeah, that bug is pretty messed up. what causes it? i've had it happen to me, but only once
 
P

poega

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As a doc PS is one of my favourite stages (and Shroomed picks it quite often too) and it would really suck to see it gone.
 
EPsilon933

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Mahone said:
But honestly i thought both rc and corneria were more fair than ps as cps... How has it lasted so long??????

Just cuz the nontransformed part is good doesnt justify its huge flaws... Ive listed them all like 100 times on this site so i wont do it again but i will say...

U can get infinited and u can ****ing fall through the goddamn stage! Is that not enough???

Ps NEEDS to be banned
Click to expand...
Mahone said:
my point wasnt to bring back corneria, i think they should both be banned
Click to expand...
I guess I misunderstood something
 
ShroudedOne

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I think, if PS was replaced with Rainbow Cruise (even though I main Peach), I'd be a little happier.

Still, I'm down for just five stages. Although, auto-banning PS doesn't leave me in as bad a state, Yoshi's is not bad for Peach. But PS isn't really fit for competition anymore, imo.
 
Mahone

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EPsilon933 said:
I guess I misunderstood something
Click to expand...
ya, i was basically saying, they're both bad, but i thought corneria was more fair


ShroudedOne said:
I think, if PS was replaced with Rainbow Cruise (even though I main Peach), I'd be a little happier.

Still, I'm down for just five stages. Although, auto-banning PS doesn't leave me in as bad a state, Yoshi's is not bad for Peach. But PS isn't really fit for competition anymore, imo.
Click to expand...
this is some REAL TALK
 
Bones0

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Mahone said:
I personally would like bf only or like all stages on... Anything in the middle honestly is awful cuz its soooo subjective... And i realize bf only kinda is too but **** that we all know in our hearts its the one TRUE stage
Click to expand...
Idk where this mentality that BF is the one true stage came from... It often feels shallow and extremely biased against spacies because of the lack of recovery options. FoD has always felt like the one true stage to me. The side blastzones are small, while the ceiling is huge, and the platforms vary through multiple heights including only a top platform (which is like FD, but not as extreme because it's smaller and at least has one plat you can DI onto). It forces players to play effectively on multiple stage layouts in a single match, which is something no other stages will never be able to do. I think that actually makes matchups harder to determine because it's just so well-rounded. The only reason it gets any flak at all is because people don't want to take the time to learn how to play on it. I constantly hear Falcon, Fox, Falco mains ***** about how they have to autoban it because they have to [get ready] time their SHFFLs differently when the low platforms are out. OMG?! Boohoo. Low plats aren't even bad for those characters most of the time. Idk, it just frustrates me that all the players who dismiss the stage as being too random are always the ones who can't L-cancel aerials onto the low plats. Like, you realize that they're only low for about 1/5th of the match, right people?
 
Strong Badam

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I'm kind of interested in why exactly PS is so bad for floaties, outside of the obvious transformations. No top platform for FFers to camp on, existing platforms are low enough to where Peach/Puff can actually techchase on them/use them for movement, no wall for spacies to ride up while recovering.... Is the relatively low ceiling that big of a deal...?
 
Bones0

Bones0

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Yeah, I've never thought it was that bad for non-spacies either... I can see how Peach/Jiggs sort of struggle because of all the room spacies have to camp, but as I've said a million times, you can't win Melee games by camping. If you're a slow char, you'll take 10-15% MAX trying to get across the stage, at which point they have to pass you, like Strong Bad said, with no top plat and extremely low side plats. I also think the ceiling being low matters a lot less since the side plats are so low and there is no top plat. A lot of absurdly low kills Fox gets on floaties only happen because he was on plats to add to the height. Idk how accurate it would be to say for sure, but I feel like an usmash on one of BF's side plats will kill sooner than an usmash from the bottom of PS...

Besides that, I think there are a lot of matchups vs. spacies that are actually good on PS. I think it's a great stage for Marth (Taj cped it vs. Mango at Genesis and everyone was like "OMG what an idiot!", then he won). Falcon and ICs also seem enjoy the space and lack of top plat respectively. I know that I personally, as a Falco main, rely pretty heavily on that top plat to get early kills, continue combos, and recover without dying every time.


Just tested Fox usmashing Falcon. On the side BF plats, Falcon dies at 97%. On the bottom of PS, Falcon dies at 99%. I love having an intuitive sense of kill %s from playing this game for 10 years. :awesome:
 
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