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A Bit of a Reality Check for the Newcomer Hopefuls.

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Moon Monkey

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As the release of Super Smash Bros. 4 inevitably approaches, it is no surprise to see fans of the series create dream rosters for the upcoming game. While there is nothing wrong with speculating on which of the characters will be in the game or not; Some of these dream rosters however, are a bit of a stretch. So I'm creating this thread to hit you cats with a reality check!

For starters, lets all make an educated guess that anime characters will not be in the game. Now guys (and gals), lets all remember that this is first and foremost a Nintendo all-stars fighting game. Sakurai has already expressed his feelings towards 3rd-party characters saying: "I think Snake and Sonic joining were fantastic. It made many fans happy, and it broadened the Smash Bros arena. However, introducing more non-Nintendo characters willy-nilly will lose the focus of the game, so I also recognise the need to narrow it down." So from that quote alone we can assume characters like Goku, Ichigo, Naruto etc... will not be in the game.

This brings us to our next reality check, 3rd-party series representation will be limited. What do I mean when I say/type this? That means Sonic will be the only playable (keyword) character from that series (Same goes for Snake and other 3rd-party hopefuls). Chances are we will not see characters like Tails, Raiden Kncukles, Shadow, Amy etc... We will most likely have 1 playable character from each 3rd-party series Sakurai and Co. decide to include.

Speaking of 'series representation', this brings us to our next reality check, don't expect to see more characters from a franchise if the franchise is already well represented. What do I mean by this? It means there is a good chance we may not see characters like Bowser Jr, Toad, Baby Luigi, Victini and Toon Zelda enter the fray. Now, now guys & gals, by now I know some of you are raging right now, but lets again remember that this is first and foremost a Nintendo (keyword) all-star fighting game. This isn't a Mario all-star fighting game, a Zelda all-star fighting game or a Pokemon all-star fighting game. Yes, these franchises make up a big part of the Nintendo name, but they aren't the only franchises Nintendo has. There is no reason to have 20 mario/zelda/pokemon characters while the rest of the franchises have 2 to 3 characters representing.

* Many of you have mentioned the "Forbidden 7" Click here. Many have speculate that these characters were meant to be in the game, but excluded due to time restraints. But we don't know for certain, for all we know these could have been scrapped in the character development stages of the game.

Another thing we all should keep in mind is that there won't be as many newcomers as there was in brawl. Sakurai has stated that he would like to spend more time balancing out the roster instead of increasing it. He has said: "It isn’t a matter of ‘if the next game has 50 characters, that’ll be enough.’ There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive…. In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. I think a change of direction may be what’s needed."

Feel free to post some of your own 'reality checks' or debate me (Because there is always 2 sides to every coin) on any of these 'reality checks'. As long as we are all level headed and respectful to one another, I'm sure we can have a good discussion here. Keep in mind that what I have stated is not the end-all-be-all post. I don't claim to have any insider information than what has been released in interviews and reports. I'm just making educated guesses and supporting them.
 

Robert of Normandy

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Looks like you need a reality check. We don't know for sure if Sakurai is going to limit the number of 3rd parties per franchise or not, nor do we know for sure if characters with existing representation will get more reps or not. I'd like those to be true, but honestly anyone outside of so-called 4th parties and characters not from a Nintendo system could possibly appear.

Edit: For the record, I hope everything you said (i.e. only one third party per franchise, more focus on underrepresented series), but I'm just saying we still know basically nothing about who is or isn't being considered for the roster.
 

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I won't dispute the first two points, but I don't think we can count out characters from well-represented franchises just yet. This, generally, is because the franchises that are well-represented are the most popular franchises owned by Nintendo. Mario, Zelda, Pokemon.. these are brands that sell. Whether or not they get a new character is up to Sakurai, but I think saying that characters like Bowser Jr., Toad, or Toon Zelda aren't going to happen is pretty ignorant. Especially considering that both Pokemon and Zelda were planned to get more representation in Brawl than they got, and they already have more representation than the other series.
 

Robert of Normandy

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Especially considering that both Pokemon and Zelda were planned to get more representation in Brawl than they got, and they already have more representation than the other series.
Don't forget that Dr. Mario wasn't originally going to be cut, so you could say the same about Mario.
 

lobotheduck21

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lets see:
4 mario characters in brawl
5 zelda characters in brawl
6 pkmn characters in brawl

and they were gonna add
Toon Zelda
Toon Shiek
Mewtwo
Dr. Mario
and presuming pra-mai is Plusle and Minun
and along with Dixie and Roy that brings the roster from 39 up too 46
that makes
5 mario
7 zelda
8 pkmn
_______
20 characters
 

SmashShadow

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The mario cast(aside form pokemon) has one of the biggest reoccuring cast and is extremely popular. The fact that they rep so much of nintendo is reason enough why they should it should get more reps. Not to mention that this is as you said an All Star Nintendo Game. Who do people think of first when they hear nintendo, Mario.
There is no reason to have 20 mario/zelda/pokemon characters while the rest of the franchises have 2 to 3 characters representing.
But the fact is they have the most consistant group of reoccuring popular characters. For most series you can't even find 4 reoccuring important charcters that would be iconic and good for smash. And for those who do, we've predicted people coming in for them too(Palutena, Ridley, Krystal, k. Rool, Dixie, Goroh, Masked Man and new Fire Emblem character(s)). After those get in most of those series won't have iconic characters left to add.
 

Moon Monkey

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Looks like you need a reality check. We don't know for sure if Sakurai is going to limit the number of 3rd parties per franchise or not, nor do we know for sure if characters with existing representation will get more reps or not. I'd like those to be true, but honestly anyone outside of so-called 4th parties and characters not from a Nintendo system could possibly appear.

Edit: For the record, I hope everything you said (i.e. only one third party per franchise, more focus on underrepresented series), but I'm just saying we still know basically nothing about who is or isn't being considered for the roster.
LOL! I set myself up for that reality check remark.

"We don't know for sure if Sakurai is going to limit the number of 3rd parties per franchise or not..."

Well I only made that point based off of a quote (which I supplied) to support my claim. Sakurai said he wanted to maintain the focus on Nintendo franchises.

"I'm just saying we still know basically nothing about who is or isn't being considered for the roster. "

I understand where you are coming from, It's like I said in my last sentence in my post I'm just making educated guesses and supporting them; based off of what little info that we have.


I won't dispute the first two points, but I don't think we can count out characters from well-represented franchises just yet. This, generally, is because the franchises that are well-represented are the most popular franchises owned by Nintendo. Mario, Zelda, Pokemon.. these are brands that sell. Whether or not they get a new character is up to Sakurai, but I think saying that characters like Bowser Jr., Toad, or Toon Zelda aren't going to happen is pretty ignorant. Especially considering that both Pokemon and Zelda were planned to get more representation in Brawl than they got, and they already have more representation than the other series.

Can you provide any thing that supports this "Pokemon and Zelda were planned to get more representation in Brawl" statement? I'm trying, with the help of others, to get a better understanding of what we can expect for the new Smash. As more info is revealed to us we can make more educated guesses. but for the time being this is all we got.


lets see:
4 mario characters in brawl
5 zelda characters in brawl
6 pkmn characters in brawl

and they were gonna add
Toon Zelda
Toon Shiek
Mewtwo
Dr. Mario
and presuming pra-mai is Plusle and Minun
and along with Dixie and Roy that brings the roster from 39 up too 46
that makes
5 mario
7 zelda
8 pkmn
_______
20 characters
I see that your breaking Zelda/Shiek and Pokemon Trainer into separate characters, when on the roster they are marked as 1. I'm counting Zelda/Shiek as 1 character and Pokemon Trainer as 1 character as well just to be clear.

Again can you please provide any links to where these characters were supposedly suppose to be included? I never came accross such an article which is why i said the things I said. If I had seen said article I wouldn't have made the points I made.

The mario cast(aside form pokemon) has one of the biggest reoccuring cast and is extremely popular. The fact that they rep so much of nintendo is reason enough why they should it should get more reps. Not to mention that this is as you said an All Star Nintendo Game. Who do people think of first when they hear nintendo, Mario.
It doesn't get anymore iconic than Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser. Those are the 4 character most will recognize. Like I said before I am aware that franchises like Zelda, Mario and Pokemon make up a big/important part of the Nintendo allstar family, but other franchise that aren't as well known deserve recognition as well like Mr. G&W, Ice Climbers, Pit and R.O.B.

Lets also keep in mind that Sakurai did say that he wasn't going to add too many new characters http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/118939-New-Super-Smash-Brothers-Wont-Add-Much-New
 

Robert of Normandy

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Can you provide any thing that supports this "Pokemon and Zelda were planned to get more representation in Brawl" statement? I'm trying, with the help of others, to get a better understanding of what we can expect for the new Smash. As more info is revealed to us we can make more educated guess. but for the time being this is all we got.
Have you heard of Brawls "Forbidden 7"? They were character names found in Brawls data that most fans assume were planned to be in at some point. Some of those include "toon_zelda", "toon_sheik", "dr_mario", and "mewtwo". There's also "pra_mai", which some theorize to be Plusle and Minun.
 

Moon Monkey

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Have you heard of Brawls "Forbidden 7"? They were character names found in Brawls data that most fans assume were planned to be in at some point. Some of those include "toon_zelda", "toon_sheik", "dr_mario", and "mewtwo". There's also "pra_mai", which some theorize to be Plusle and Minun.
No I haven't heard of anything like that. Has there been any sort of acknowledgement by Sakurai?
 

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No offense, but we don't need a thread like this here.

While it can still get dumb at times, this is nowhere the craziness it was during Pre-Brawl, and with easy to obtain infomation about the development of the Smash series laying around in addition to speculation veterans who almost literally preach the word of Sakurai, this thread is just re-stating what has come to be common sense.

@Moon Monkey
 

lobotheduck21

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I see that your breaking Zelda/Shiek and Pokemon Trainer into separate characters, when on the roster they are marked as 1. I'm counting Zelda/Shiek as 1 character and Pokemon Trainer as 1 character as well just to be clear.

Again can you please provide any links to where these characters were supposedly suppose to be included? I never came accross such an article which is why i said the things I said. If I had seen said article I wouldn't have made the points I made.
1. Lots of people do it, zelda has a totally diffrent play style then sheik, (could have also added
shelda and toon shelda, bringing the total up to nine.)

http://smashbros.neoseeker.com/wiki/Forbidden_Seven
 

Moon Monkey

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No offense, but we don't need a thread like this here.

While it can still get dumb at times, this is nowhere the craziness it was during Pre-Brawl, and with easy to obtain infomation about the development of the Smash series laying around in addition to speculation veterans who almost literally preach the word of Sakurai, this thread is just re-stating what has come to be common sense.

@Moon Monkey
Although to you, me and others this may seem like common sense there are still many people out there that believe Goku has a pretty good chance to get into SSB4. I too thought these were things that were 'common sense', but after looking through the already made threads and videos on Youtube that doesn't seem to be the case. I just wanted a place to express how I feel in an open forum with others.

1. Lots of people do it, zelda has a totally diffrent play style then sheik, (could have also added
shelda and toon shelda, bringing the total up to nine.)

http://smashbros.neoseeker.com/wiki/Forbidden_Seven
Though "Lots of people" break up these characters. They are still seen as one on the character select screen. Characters like Pokemon Trainer and Zelda/Shiek main gimmick of play-style was switching between forms, heck that's why the pokemon get tired when they are out too long: To indicate it's time to switch. Despite how many people play these characters were intended to be played as one. It just so happen it didn't work out that way

That link is pretty interesting, I heard of it. Sakurai did say he was trying his best to include previous veterans http://mynintendonews.com/2012/06/2...-old-characters-back-to-smash-bros-wii-u-3ds/
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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No I haven't heard of anything like that. Has there been any sort of acknowledgement by Sakurai?
No there has been no acknowledgement from Sakurai but this information has been physically found by hackers. Here is some information on the hacked files:

http://www.destructoid.com/rumortoi...-on-smash-bros-brawl-disk-update--68272.phtml

While I know this thread means well, it has a very "I'm right, your wrong" mentality. Yes, I tend to go into a blood rage when I see people include Goku or Cloud into rosters and seriously consider them as a contender for a character slot. However, instead of attacking them for their idocy, why not just let it go and let them fantasize about it? People are free to speculate; even if that speculation leads to outrageous results.

It's not a 100% given that 3rd party characters will be included this time around nor is it a 100% given that the bigger franchises will receive a new representative. Additionally, it is generally known that Sakurai doesn't look at series or franchise representation save for Super Mario Bros. The characters uniqueness and what the character can bring into Smash is his prime concern.
 

Moon Monkey

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No there has been no acknowledgement from Sakurai but this information has been physically found by hackers. Here is some information on the hacked files:

http://www.destructoid.com/rumortoi...-on-smash-bros-brawl-disk-update--68272.phtml

While I know this thread means well, it has a very "I'm right, your wrong" mentality. Yes, I tend to go into a blood rage when I see people include Goku or Cloud into rosters and seriously consider them as a contender for a character slot. However, instead of attacking them for their idocy, why not just let it go and let them fantasize about it? People are free to speculate; even if that speculation leads to outrageous results.

It's not a 100% given that 3rd party characters will be included this time around nor is it a 100% given that the bigger franchises will receive a new representative. Additionally, it is generally known that Sakurai doesn't look at series or franchise representation save for Super Mario Bros. The characters uniqueness and what the character can bring into Smash is his prime concern.
Like i said in my first post "While there is nothing wrong with speculating on which of the characters will be in the game or not..." I'm all for specualting, heck this whole article is based on speculating, but I was trying to encourage using sources to back up speculation.

At the end of my first post I put a disclaimer saying "I don't claim to have any insider information than what has been released in interviews and reports. I'm just making educated guesses and supporting them." I'm sorry if it came off as "I'm right your wrong" Maybe I should highlight it to draw attention.

All these are, are educated guesses based on what reports and interviews we have.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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The anime characters couldnt be in based on the fact that Sakurai said that any character included has to originate from a video game, not so much because of lack of 3rd party inclusion.

and i dont think that series like Mario are 100% not getting another character. Mario had 5 reps in melee, and has a lot of characters that people would like to see (Jr, Toad, Waluigi, Paper Mario).
 

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Although to you, me and others this may seem like common sense there are still many people out there that believe Goku has a pretty good chance to get into SSB4. I too thought these were things that were 'common sense', but after looking through the already made threads and videos on Youtube that doesn't seem to be the case. I just wanted a place to express how I feel in an open forum with others.
Yeah there are a lot of dumb threads here, but they're not getting out of hand or are taking themselves seriously, just people rallying support for the fun of it. It's just best to ignore them if you think they're pointless like I do (:p).

No there has been no acknowledgement from Sakurai but this information has been physically found by hackers.
Well technically Sakurai did admit that he had planned Dixie to be in.
 

Moon Monkey

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Yeah there are a lot of dumb threads here, but they're not getting out of hand or are taking themselves seriously, just people rallying support for the fun of it. It's just best to ignore them if you think they're pointless like I do (:p).
I didn't mean to be a kill-joy. :( I just wanted to make thread based on reasoning, that way we could ground our speculation in reality. Instead of creating character all will-nillly

Well technically Sakurai did admit that he had planned Dixie to be in.
Thats sounds good to me I just want King K. Rool and I'm happy.
 

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I didn't mean to be a kill-joy. :( I just wanted to make thread based on reasoning, that way we could ground our speculation in reality. Instead of creating character all will-nillly
Nothing wrong with that. I would say a good potion of the Smash 4 speculation scene has been fairly grounded in logic and reasoning that has been directed by a group of grounded and logical individuals. I know posters like ChronoBound have gone extensively into the Japanese side of Smash bros. to dig up as much information as possible.

You may want to look into this thread since it has a wealth of information:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=324410

All in all, it's fun to do. I created a long forgotten Assassin's Creed character thread and, while I know the chance of them getting in is a dead 0, I would still love to see a character included. Doesn't mean I am dead set on supporting the character or putting them onto my character roster, it's just a idea I think would be cool. In addition, I believe what set off the "I am holier than art" type feeling was the wording.

Speaking of 'series representation', this brings us to our next reality check, don't expect to see more characters from a franchise if the franchise is already well represented. What do I mean by this? You know EXACTLY what I mean by that. It means no characters like Bowser Jr, Toad, Baby Luigi, Victini and Toon Zelda. Now, now guys & gals, by now I know some of you are raging right now, but lets again remember that this is first and foremost a Nintendo (keyword) all-star fighting game.
The wording you used was fairly strong and abrasive. If you want to appeal to a large group of people, it's best to be subjective and neutral. You could have worded it like "We may not see Bowser Jr, Toad, Baby Luigi, Victini, and Toon Zelda" or "It's possible that flagship franchises such as Mario, Legend of Zelda, and Pokemon may not get a newcomer rep". However, you went straight to the jugular and said "No chances". I appreciate you for standing by your ideals but if you are trying to appeal to a group of people with diverse opinions on how the final roster will be, it's best to use neutral words that are within the grey area. Now, if you intended to be aggressive in your wording (as you did), you did just fine. However, that is why people are disagreeing with you left and right.

However, your views on 3rd party and anime characters is generally accepted and shared by the majority of logical smash speculators.
 

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I didn't mean to be a kill-joy. :( I just wanted to make thread based on reasoning, that way we could ground our speculation in reality. Instead of creating character all will-nillly
Don't worry I don't think you're a kill joy. I myself have the same opinion about all of the C & D-Tier characters threads as well as Dream Rosters.

I'm just saying that it's just best to not take them seriously, when I'm pretty sure they themselves don't take themselves seriously either. :bee:

Thats sounds good to me I just want King K. Rool and I'm happy.
Well a lot of us have been betting on DK being the series to get 2 newcomers this time around, so here's hoping.
 

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Nothing wrong with that. I would say a good potion of the Smash 4 speculation scene has been fairly grounded in logic and reasoning that has been directed by a group of grounded and logical individuals. I know posters like ChronoBound have gone extensively into the Japanese side of Smash bros. to dig up as much information as possible.

You may want to look into this thread since it has a wealth of information:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=324410

All in all, it's fun to do. I created a long forgotten Assassin's Creed character thread and, while I know the chance of them getting in is a dead 0, I would still love to see a character included. Doesn't mean I am dead set on supporting the character or putting them onto my character roster, it's just a idea I think would be cool. In addition, I believe what set off the "I am holier than art" type feeling was the wording.



The wording you used was fairly strong and abrasive. If you want to appeal to a large group of people, it's best to be subjective and neutral. You could have worded it like "We may not see Bowser Jr, Toad, Baby Luigi, Victini, and Toon Zelda" or "It's possible that flagship franchises such as Mario, Legend of Zelda, and Pokemon may not get a newcomer rep". However, you went straight to the jugular and said "No chances". I appreciate you for standing by your ideals but if you are trying to appeal to a group of people with diverse opinions on how the final roster will be, it's best to use neutral words that are within the grey area. Now, if you intended to be aggressive in your wording (as you did), you did just fine. However, that is why people are disagreeing with you left and right.

However, your views on 3rd party and anime characters is generally accepted and shared by the majority of logical smash speculators.
Gotchya Let me take the time to re-word my initial post. While i'm up there I might aswell add the Don't expect too many new characters http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/118939-New-Super-Smash-Brothers-Wont-Add-Much-New and thanks for the link ,there some good stuff in there.
 

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Mario had less characters in Brawl than in Melee, should it not go back to five. LoZ didn't get any newcomers in Brawl, completely fine for them to get a newcomer now. Pokemon is incredibly popular, I personally like it more than Mario and LoZ, and I can confidently say the majority of my friends do as well, not to mention they were due the most characters in brawl, and, in fact, they still got it. There is always going to be two new generations in between smash games, the disappointing thing in brawl was the fact that there wasn't any gen 3 newcomers. Gen 6 WILL COME OUT before smash 4 and it's unlikely that we will get a rep for it, it's not even certain that we'll get one for gen 5! Honestly, you don't give these franchises enough credit, and Pokemon needs at least one newcomer a game, it's only fair really.
 

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Mario had less characters in Brawl than in Melee, should it not go back to five. LoZ didn't get any newcomers in Brawl, completely fine for them to get a newcomer now. Pokemon is incredibly popular, I personally like it more than Mario and LoZ, and I can confidently say the majority of my friends do as well, not to mention they were due the most characters in brawl, and, in fact, they still got it. There is always going to be two new generations in between smash games, the disappointing thing in brawl was the fact that there wasn't any gen 3 newcomers. Gen 6 WILL COME OUT before smash 4 and it's unlikely that we will get a rep for it, it's not even certain that we'll get one for gen 5! Honestly, you don't give these franchises enough credit, and Pokemon needs at least one newcomer a game, it's only fair really.
Well LoZ had Toon Link replace Young Link.
Just as Pokemon had Lucario replace Mewtwo.

All I'm saying is that, Sakurai has pointed out in a recent article that this is more than anything a Nintendo all-star fighting game. Not a Pokemon All-star fighting game. Like I said before, yes these franchises are popular, but other franchises deserve just as much recognition too; After all they are apart of the Nintendo Family just like Mario, Pokemon and Zelda. Sakurai has also been pretty active about exposing all Nintendo franchises popular and the forgotten. Case and point: R.O.B, Pit, Ice Climbers and Mr. Game&Watch

Besides you should relax Gen 5, 6, 7, 8 etc... can all be represented thanks to the nifty item called: The Pokeball.
 

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That is exactly what I thought.

Mewtwo was never replaced. Just removed for time restraints.

:phone:
 

jigglover

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My thought exactly...

What you're saying makes it sound like Mario, LoZ and Pokemon are third-party! For crying out loud, there's what? 20 series' represented? Mario LoZ and Pokemon deserve to get at least one rep a game, and Pokemon should honestly get 2. If I sound frustrated, it's because what you say doesn't make sense!
 

Onyx Oblivian

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My thought exactly...

What you're saying makes it sound like Mario, LoZ and Pokemon are third-party! For crying out loud, there's what? 20 series' represented? Mario LoZ and Pokemon deserve to get at least one rep a game, and Pokemon should honestly get 2. If I sound frustrated, it's because what you say doesn't make sense!
Coming from a die-hard Zelda fan, I'd be perfectly happy and content if they didn't add any more characters to the roster. (Although I have a bias for one) haha

I don't think Pokemon "deserves" two this upcoming Smash. They have 6 characters right now, and with no cuts, I'd also be content with 1 addition: Mewtwo.

Mario, on the other hand, I feel deserves the "two" or "double dip". I know Moon Monkey doesn't feel this way but look: Nintendo's flagship series lost one slot in brawl.

This is the series that pumps out MANY MANY Mario Platformers/Karting/Tennis/Sports/RPGs/etc...

This isn't some obscure series. If that franchise gets two newcomers this time around, it's deserved.

Also, the thing with Mario is that we have yet to get requests of "obscure" Mario characters. Toad, Waluigi, Bowser Jr., and Paper Mario are all worthy additions, and competitive additions at that. That's why there's that "double dip" possibility.

:phone:
 

PsychoIncarnate

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I heard that Goku is going to be in this game. And Piccolo
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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Yeeeeah, Pokemon doesn't actually need two more new reps.

And for your guys information, I heard this will be Smash Bros X Namco Bros. instead of smash bros.

:phone:
 

Opossum

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I heard the entire thing was changed to become Disney X Kellogs. Any verification on this?
 

tekkie

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with nintendo's lack of its own independent games lately and increasing its support from third party developers it's perfectly plausible that more third-party representatives that have been on nintendo consoles will be in smash 4
 

FlareHabanero

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It's already confirmed that there won't be a lot of third party representation. At best we'll have something like Snake, Sonic, and another one like a Capcom or Namco representative. At worst we won't have any at all.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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What about Mario X Peach, or Samus X Ridley? Or Daisy X Peach
 

8-peacock-8

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I can see that we might end up with three or four third parties (Snake, Sonic, Capcom rep, Namco rep) at the most.

Worst case scenario, two or zero third parties.

:phone:
 

8-peacock-8

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I really doubt a Square Enix character will get in. But you never know. If we somehow get five third parties (LOL) I wouldn't be surprised to see an FF character in this.

:phone:
 
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