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The spunkster youngster, Joey for smash 4!

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jigglover

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Don't disregard this so easily! There is talk of several second pokemon trainers, such as Cynthia and N, but they are hardly as recognizable as Joey. Joey has (arguably) been in the pokemon series since day 1, and is still there in gen 5, which is mighty impressive, being in a total of 18 of 21 main series games! (not including B2/W2 since I do not know if Joey is in them yet.) This makes Joey the single most recurring human pokemon character, and that should count for something.
A quote from bulbapedia claims: 'Joey, his Rattata, and the phrase "top percentage of Rattata" have achieved memetic status.'
This makes Joey even more recognizable, (like it was needed) and would show Sakurai that he is popular. Now, obviously Joey is most recognizable with his Rattata, but for two other pokemon, he has a Spearow in a battle in gen 3, and in black he has a Lillipup and Patrat, however, I am going for Raticate for the heavier pokemon (since it is sort of needed) in my move-set.
I will now attempt a move-set. The majority of moves will be associated with a pokemon move, such as A being head-butt and side smash double edge.

Rattata:
A, head-butt: A simple head-butt.
AA, head-butt: Head-butts twice in quick succession.
AAA, head-butt: Continuously head-butts.
Side smash, double edge: Charges up, and then hurtles itself in the direction you aimed.
Up smash, sunny day: A sun briefly appears above rattata (think Zelda) for about 1.25 seconds.
Down smash, grass knot: Creates knots of grass (did you guess!?) on each side of him about the size of pikachu crouching only higher. Staying true to the games, the heavier the opponent, the more damage it deals, so GaW is pleased with this attack, whereas Bowser is horrified.

Specials:
Neutral B, pursuit: This is an interesting attack, and though it may seem broken, it won't be. It releases a Bowser sized pulse of dark energy in front of it. If the opponent tries to shield, roll dodge or air dodge away from the attack, then the sheild fails and double damage and 0.25 more than the usual damage is dealt. This doesn't break a shield that was used 0.5 seconds before the attack has begun.

Side B, blizzard: Realeases a fairly large gust of icy wind that freezes anyone it hits like IC in melee. No doubt this would in fact be icy wind, but unfortunately the TM was changed in gen 5 meaning Rattata can no longer learn it without trading. I suppose he can learn it via tutoring in B2/W2, so tell me if you want it changed. This is fairly basic, to be honest.

Down B, (how could it not be) sucker punch: I'll be surprised if you didn't see this coming, but a counter attack using the dark energy Ganondorf uses. Simple, really.

Up B, tail whip: This is kind of a copy of spearcopter, but since bandanna dee is far from in smash, I figured it'll be OK. It's basically a horizontal recovery, but you can control it quite a bit, and Rattata extends its tail at the end of the spin for a tether recovery, about 3/4 the length of Ivysaur's vine whip.

Final smash, Hyper fang (mixed with a little bit of glare even though he can't learn it! :D):
Rattata glares in front of itself at any opponents, and are fixed in their place with those freaky eyes from the game hovering in front of them. Rattata then sinks its teeth deeply into the character in various places with broken movement, and at the end, he uses crunch with the rocks on either side like rock smash's knockback and power x2.


Spearow:
A, peck: Does a quick nip with her beak.
AA, double peck: Does two quick nips with her beak.
AAA, fury attack: Does an endless amount of pecks in front of her.
Side smash, growl: Spearow cries its cry from the games and it creates a not-unlike-game look of the red ring in front of it or whichever way she charged. The more charging the further it travels and stronger it is.
Up smash, Thief: Spearow raises both of her wings next to her hitting any falcon punches from the side (etc.) and summons the animation from the games that looks so cool. If the opponent is holding an item then he drops. Gets rid of all parts of the dragoon he has collected, but is does not franklin badge or screw attack. If the opponent is glowing from the smash ball then if he is hit once more after getting hit by thief he loses it.
Down smash, false swipe: This attack and aerial ace, his neutral special, are similar, but oh well. An aerial ace-esque couple of slashes appear on both sides of her. True to the games, it deals practically no knock-back but a good chunk of health.

Specials:

Neutral special, aerial ace: Using similar graphics to the, 5 extremely quick slashes appear on all four corners of her as well as one through the middle. The description of aerial ace in XD says: 'An extremely speedy and unavoidable attack.' So, we have the speedy bit down, now unavoidable. This breaks through shields, roll and air dodges.

Side special, drill peck: Ok, this is kind of a copy of meta-knight's side special (which I just noticed, I thought of this attack before realising) where he begins to spin around, and shifts his body to spin in all kinds of different places.

Down special, faint attack: Disappears for a second and appears again dealing large knock-back but not much HP. This can be used as a recovery, since you can control it to go side-ways or upwards somewhat and it doesn't leave him helpless.

Up special (how could it not be), fly: Arguably the most important attack in the whole pokemon series has yet to be represented in smash. Now, this confused me, so I had to put it in Spearow's move-set. On top of Spearow's 4 mid-air jumps, he can use fly, which sends him sprawling in the air (like D3's) but you can control Spearow as he then comes down after a moment of stalling. This references multiple things in smash related to this move. First of all, the first move of fly is where he needs to charge for it, and that is why Spearow throws itself up in the air in smash. The second's stalling also references the charging aspect of this. Now, you can control him as he comes down into three slots if you like, referencing triple battles and how you can attack all three pokemon with this attack. This works because you control it freely until you go substantially above the stage where you get locked into the stage, and you can switch into three different places at the last minute to avoid any up smashes or something. This will be effective in 1v1, but not so much in team battles.

Final smash: Argh, there are three more moves I want Spearow to have. These are: Tri attack, whirlwind and Razor wind. So, I tried mixing all three of them for the final smash. 3 whirlwinds appear, trapping the opposition in them and racking up damage as quickly as a flower on their heads. Then Spearow causes multiple razor wind razors to cut across the stage, sometimes missing the trapped characters, but generally hitting at least one, like the Latio/as poke-ball or kat and ana. Spearow then finishes by releasing tri attack from it's body, doing one thing at random to each character (but you still see the beams heading for the characters). One, the freeze aspect of it, gives the opponent the effect that Articuno did in melee and freezie did in brawl (and melee), you should all know what I mean, I just don't know the name. :/ One stuns the opponent (paralysis) like the deku seed does in brawl or if you hold the shield down for too long, again, I don't know the name... Then the last (burn) causes a similar effect to PK Fire, though it is elongated, and at the end he gets a flower on his head referencing how burn hurts the pokemon in the pokemon games at the end of every battle.



Arguments and counter-arguments:

But Joey isn't even recurring! His Japanese name is different in Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald and there weren't names in gen 1!

This is obviously true, however, (I'll do gen 1 argument first) his inclusion in fire-red/leaf-green implies he was in fact in red and green/blue, since the character had the same pokemon as a youngster in the same place. In terms of gen 3, even if he was in fact not in R/S/E, he was included in the PAL and NTSC versions, meaning that it was a mistake on behalf of Japanese Nintendo that they rectified for the other versions of the game.

But the Pokemon trainer is original! We can't change that!

There isn't one original character in smash bros. that hasn't at least been attempted to be copied. Ice climbers: Diddy and Dixie, plusle and minun. Zelda/Sheik: Samus/ZSS PT is next.


Discuss, debate and enjoy!
 

Frostwraith

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interestingly, his Ratatta has maximum 31 IVs in all of his stats, something nearly impossible to achieve without hacking. by the way, Joey in Gen III might not be the same due to the japanese names.
 

jigglover

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Oh, thanks, I meant to adress that in the OP under arguments and counter-arguments (it fits there right?) so I'll do that now.
He is the top percentage of Rattata, of course he's hacked the game and took up the percentage to 150! :troll:

Edit: Updated OP with arguments and counter-arguments, one of which can be used for multiple characters.
 

FlareHabanero

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Joey will never be in Super Smash Bros. His Rattata would literally break the game with the sheer percentage of Rattata.

I'd be like Meta Knight x300.
 

Frostwraith

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Joey will never be in Super Smash Bros. His Rattata would literally break the game with the sheer percentage of Rattata.

I'd be like Meta Knight x300.
Meta Knight x300?! Blasphemy! It'd be like Meta Knight x9001! :troll:

Shows once again, Pokémon has nearly endless possibilities.
 
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Joey's Rattata is too strong.
We need a weaker one, like from a Rocket Grunt.
 

jigglover

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Looks like bulbapedia was right. Every of these comments are about his Rattata being he top percentage of Rattata, you can discuss other things you know!
 

jigglover

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Nice to see some support! ;) Working on a move-set for Spearow now, the agilest of the three.

Wow, that took me a long time. That's the problem with this thread, you need to make a move-set for all three pokemon. I will do Raticate tomorrow (probably). I really want some critique on my move-sets, since I have this feeling that it isn't the best I can do, yet I can't figure out what to change...
 
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I don't really think any of the other "Joeys" should count as THE Joey, as there's only one, and that's the one from G/S/C/HG/SS.

So honestly, giving him a Spearow, Zigzagoon, Machop, etc. doesn't make sense.

Instead, he should only have his Rattata, and after a while of major *** kicking (which will happen, since it's in the top percentage of Rattata), it evolves into Raticate (though Joey still refers to it as a Rattata in his victory as tribute to his quotes).
 

jigglover

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Joey travels a lot! Do you think it's just coincidence that all of the Joeys have the name Joey and a Rattata (other than in B/W for obvious reasons)?
 
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The one in Hoenn has a Zigzagoon and a Machop. No Rattata.
As for the one in Kanto, he was unnamed prior to FR/LG.
 
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It still can't be him.
The Joey in Kanto has a higher level Rattata than when you first fight the Joey in Johto. So unless Joey went down in skill and caught a new Rattata to train, it's not the same Joey.
Also, he is said to specialize in a single Pokemon; his one Rattata/Raticate. So why would he have a Spearow?
 

jigglover

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Because pokemon trainer needs to have 3 pokemon (I'm guessing) and it's good to finally have a flying type in smash. It's also good for the most important attack, fly, to be represented. Especially since Joey is kind of the first trainer you battle in lots of games so it should have novice pokemon. In regards to Hoenn, the fact that gamefreak at least included the name Joey is three options: 1, a simple coincidence. 2, a rectified mistake. 3, there was some kind of outrage for confusion causing them to put him in. I'm pretty sure there wasn't any outrage or confusion, so it was either a coincedence or mistake. Oh, and the Rattata in kanto is a higher level Rattata then in Johto? Are you actually trying to make a canon in the pokemon series? The only canon is that fire-red happened before heart-gold... Besides, Lance's pokemon are way higher level in (fire) red than in (heart) gold. Did he completely remodel his team as well?
 
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....so :charizard: doesn't exist now? And his Up Special isn't called Fly?

EDIT: And yes, obviously Lance retooled his team. He's the frigging Champion, he has a lot of Pokemon.
Joey's a novice trainer who thinks his Rattata/Raticate is all he needs.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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If this guy is so memorable, why have I never heard of him?
 

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Because pokemon trainer needs to have 3 pokemon (I'm guessing) and it's good to finally have a flying type in smash. It's also good for the most important attack, fly, to be represented. Especially since Joey is kind of the first trainer you battle in lots of games so it should have novice pokemon. In regards to Hoenn, the fact that gamefreak at least included the name Joey is three options: 1, a simple coincidence. 2, a rectified mistake. 3, there was some kind of outrage for confusion causing them to put him in. I'm pretty sure there wasn't any outrage or confusion, so it was either a coincedence or mistake. Oh, and the Rattata in kanto is a higher level Rattata then in Johto? Are you actually trying to make a canon in the pokemon series? The only canon is that fire-red happened before heart-gold... Besides, Lance's pokemon are way higher level in (fire) red than in (heart) gold. Did he completely remodel his team as well?
the Joeys in Gen III, meaning Ruby, Sapphire, Emerald, FireRed and LeafGreen, have a different japanese name than the Joey in Gold / Silver and the respective remakes. so, assuming that the dev team bases on the Japanese versions of the games, which is... let's say, granted it will happen. then, they are different characters (with the same name in the localized versions).

If this guy is so memorable, why have I never heard of him?
memes within the Pokémon community, 'nuff said.
 

jigglover

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If this guy is so memorable, why have I never heard of him?
I take it you're not a pokemon fan? Just search Joey into google images and there are literally 15-20 pages on his rattata! :/

the Joeys in Gen III, meaning Ruby, Sapphire, Emerald, FireRed and LeafGreen, have a different japanese name than the Joey in Gold / Silver and the respective remakes. so, assuming that the dev team bases on the Japanese versions of the games, which is... let's say, granted it will happen. then, they are different characters (with the same name in the localized versions).
So you think it was a coincidence? And besides, even if it was, he is still the most recurring human pokemon character in the series.
Are you including fire-red and leaf-green in this? Because I always thought the japanese name only applied to R/S/E...
 

PsychoIncarnate

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I take it you're not a pokemon fan? Just search Joey into google images and there are literally 15-20 pages on his rattata! :/
Yeah, I'm a pokemon fan.

Apparently I don't pay attention to all the little memes they come up with though.

Whatever
 

jigglover

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It's not just memes, he's the most recurring character in the series, and is famous everywhere for his phrase: 'top percentage of rattata'.
 

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It's not just memes, he's the most recurring character in the series, and is famous everywhere for his phrase: 'top percentage of rattata'.
I think I remember him in some game. Maybe Fire Red and Leaf Green. But TBH I don't read what the trainers say most of the time.

They are basically faceless and them having names doesn't help when there are just trainer types. Their purpose is just filler and fodder to lower your HP and PP making your progression more difficult, while giving an increased amount of XP than normal mobs and money.

I probably just figured they reuse names because they have a limited amount of stock names. I'm sure if you look hard enough there are more characters whose names spam across games. Maybe even having the same trainer type
 
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Jigglover, he is NOT a recurring character. He's only in ****ing Johto.

The other "Joeys" are NOT HIM. Doesn't ****ing matter that they are all called "Joey" in English, they have different names in Japanese from the memetic Joey.
So yes, it's just a coincidence they happen to be called Joey.

EDIT: Don't mean to be pissed, but I'm tired of seeing a simple concept such as the fact that there is only one area the memetic Joey is in being blatantly dismissed just because there happens to be others with his name in English versions of games. And then made into some conspiracy about how "GameFreak wanted it to be the same character, so they named him Joey to correct their initial mistake".
 

jigglover

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Actually, he is recurring. He is in black and white (and possibly black 2 and white 2) with the same japenese and english names than gold/silver/heratgold/soulsilver. So he is in fact pretty recurring, at least in terms of pokemon characters! The only other ones I can think of not including remakes (right now) are Lance, who is in R/B/G/Y (gen 1) and in G/S/C and a larger role in HG/SS, and Jasmine who had a quick cameo in D/P giving the player HM waterfall!
 
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Cynthia: D/P/Pt, HG/SS, B/W, B2/W2.
Red: R/B/G/Y, FR/LG (as player), G/S/C, HG/SS, B2/W2 (as opponent)
Blue/Green: R/B/G/Y, G/S/C, FR/LG, HG/SS, B2/W2
All Original Gym Leaders (other than Giovanni): Same as Blue/Green.
Giovanni: Same as Blue/Green except for G/S/C.
Lance: Same as Blue/Green.

These characters are far more recurring than Joey, even if the one in Unova counts (which I doubt it does).
 

jigglover

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Well, Joey is more recognizable than a lot of those. Giovanni is only remembered due to the anime, but I guess that counts. All original gym leaders don't really count at all, except for Brock and Misty. Red is in smash already, so you can discount him. It's extremely doubtful that we will get blue/green in smash, same goes for Lance. So of recurring characters in pokemon, it's either Red, Cynthia or Joey. Since it's doubtful Red will get replaced (and another PT for that matter) if we do get another PT it's between Cynthia and Joey. Joey is accountable because of his meme status on the internet, so don't say he isn't.
I forgot this was smash forums a second! :D This seems like a pokemon forum on this thread, barely anything smash related!
 

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Well, Joey is more recognizable than a lot of those. Giovanni is only remembered due to the anime, but I guess that counts. All original gym leaders don't really count at all, except for Brock and Misty. Red is in smash already, so you can discount him. It's extremely doubtful that we will get blue/green in smash, same goes for Lance. So of recurring characters in pokemon, it's either Red, Cynthia or Joey. Since it's doubtful Red will get replaced (and another PT for that matter) if we do get another PT it's between Cynthia and Joey. Joey is accountable because of his meme status on the internet, so don't say he isn't.
I forgot this was smash forums a second! :D This seems like a pokemon forum on this thread, barely anything smash related!
and of course, between Joey, whose popularity is based on memes... and Cynthia who contributes to Diamond / Pearl / Platinum's storyline, is a champion in the same games, appears in an event involving Arceus in HG/SS and also appears in BW and B2/W2, thus appearing in all main games since Gen IV... I think the choice is obvious: Cynthia.

plus, Cynthia has a Garchomp, 'nuff said.
 

jigglover

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and of course, between Joey, whose popularity is based on memes... and Cynthia who contributes to Diamond / Pearl / Platinum's storyline, is a champion in the same games, appears in an event involving Arceus in HG/SS and also appears in BW and B2/W2, thus appearing in all main games since Gen IV... I think the choice is obvious: Cynthia.

plus, Cynthia has a Garchomp, 'nuff said.
...Logic doesn't make sense.

Who cares 'bout garchomp, Joeys got the top percentage of rattata.
 
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That has to be the worst argument I've ever read, jigglover.
For one, a 2nd Trainer in itself is not likely at all, so everyone is "discounted".

Two, who says the original Gym Leaders don't count? By what standards? Because you say so? Please.

Three, since the ONLY thing Joey has going for him is a meme, he is the most unlikely of the bunch. He'd make a nice joke, but seriously, he's never going to happen. All the characters I listed have actual importance to their respective games and are more recurring than Joey, who honestly only has Gen 2 and the Gen 2 remakes. There are other characters with the same name, but as said before, GameFreak only has so many stock names that names are bound to be repeated, save for actual important characters.

Four, the fact that Green/Blue and Lance are far more important and popular than Joey puts them above his "accountable" memetic status. Besides, THEY HAVE MEMES TOO.
Since Blue/Green is associated with Gary Oak from the anime, the "Gary Motherf***ing Oak" meme applies to him. And Lance is the original wielder of Dragonite, so memes that apply to Dragonite apply to Lance as well. In fact, they typically refer to Lance as part of the meme. ("B****es love Dragonite! Lance has 3 of those ****ers and he gets his **** sucked 3 times an hour; one for each Dragonite!")
 

jigglover

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Saying that memes about pokemon refer to their trainers, means that all non-rattata memes apply to Joey also, which is more than all 3 dragonite's combined. Joey is based on bug catchers, (or rather is one, but oh well) so any memes that include youngsters belong to him, by your logic, just like how Gary Motherf***ing Oak is based on Blue/Green. The original gym leaders? P-lease, Burgh should get in, he's the most recent gym leader! :D He'd be a WTF character, granted, but so was ROB, GaW and Jigglypuff (respectively in descending chronological order of games)...
 
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....you don't read, do you.
Lance is A PART of the Dragonite meme. Did you not read the example I gave about the "b****es love Dragonite" thing?
Also, Rattata on its own hardly has a memetic status; only Joey's Rattata does.
Joey is a Youngster, not a Bug Catcher, and neither class has any notable memes as well.

Aside from that, the example is hardly comparable, given that Blue/Green and Gary are counterparts to each other, whereas you're trying to compare Trainer Classes to a specific Trainer.

And really, you're trying to use the "most recent" argument? Hasn't it been proven time and time again characters AREN'T ADDED for that reason? No? Then you have must have been twiddling your thumbs and not paying attention. Even someone like Lt. Surge will be more iconic than Burgh until the end of time.

And don't use justification for other characters, as you have no idea what you're talking about.
Jigglypuff is not a WTF, as Jigglypuff at the time of her inclusion was a very notable Pokemon and was 2nd place in popularity in Japan (2nd to Pikachu, btw).
Mr. Game & Watch represents an era of games before even Mario; the Game & Watch titles, the earliest Nintendo products to garner major success.
R.O.B. saved video games in the Western market during the Video Game Crash of 1983 and has appeared in numerous Nintendo titles since. If it weren't for him, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Then there's Joey, who.....just has a meme outside of Japan. That's literally it.
 

Frostwraith

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having Joey in SSB would be like having the memetic 3-13 Archer from Fire Emblem or any other memetic Fire Emblem generic boss.

memes isn't necessarily good popularity, since it is just repeating the same joke over the Internet, with little to no regard to the character's importance.

all of the characters in the Smash series have a degree of popularity of which you can't compare with these memetic characters within the fandoms, in which some members of such fandoms aren't even aware of them.

you can't compare a generic trainer (Joey) with important characters like Gym Leaders (Brock, Misty), Elite Four, Champions (Lance, Cynthia) or members of villainous teams (Giovanni, N).
 

jigglover

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....you don't read, do you.
Lance is A PART of the Dragonite meme. Did you not read the example I gave about the "b****es love Dragonite" thing?
Also, Rattata on its own hardly has a memetic status; only Joey's Rattata does.
Joey is a Youngster, not a Bug Catcher, and neither class has any notable memes as well.

I said, since Lance's iconic pokemon is in fact Dragonite, then the memes that Dragonite is in and Lance is not also refer to him (although they actually don't, but by your logic they do.) Rattata on his own obviously isn't memetic status, but there are a few that don't refer to Joey's, such as this one:
And no, I don't find that funny, it's just the first one in the search results.


Aside from that, the example is hardly comparable, given that Blue/Green and Gary are counterparts to each other, whereas you're trying to compare Trainer Classes to a specific Trainer.

Ash is based off Red, Gary off blue/green. This does not mean that something referring to one character also refers to the other. On a much larger scale than memes, is Red's inclusion in brawl is also Ash's inclusion. Now, we all know this is impossible (I hope) since he is 4th party, so on a smaller scale, memes referring to Gary don't refer to Blue/Green. They go 2 on 2 with eachother. What part of this looks like blue?


And really, you're trying to use the "most recent" argument? Hasn't it been proven time and time again characters AREN'T ADDED for that reason? No? Then you have must have been twiddling your thumbs and not paying attention. Even someone like Lt. Surge will be more iconic than Burgh until the end of time.

Wait... it sounds like you think I was actually trying to justify Burgh in smash, of course I wasn't! That would be as silly as Altaria getting into smash, who, by the way, is more likely than Lt. Surge. There are a couple of examples that could mean that being recent helps (aside from retros obviously), but I'm far from a firm believer in it.

And don't use justification for other characters, as you have no idea what you're talking about.
Jigglypuff is not a WTF, as Jigglypuff at the time of her inclusion was a very notable Pokemon and was 2nd place in popularity in Japan (2nd to Pikachu, btw).
Mr. Game & Watch represents an era of games before even Mario; the Game & Watch titles, the earliest Nintendo products to garner major success.
R.O.B. saved video games in the Western market during the Video Game Crash of 1983 and has appeared in numerous Nintendo titles since. If it weren't for him, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I didn't know about Jigglypuff being 2nd (The majority of polls I saw had mewtwo second, and sometimes even Jigglypuff down at 20 or so) but if there was a WTF character in SSB64, and there was, it'll be Jigglypuff. Ask a group of people who they think the WTF character in super smash bros. 64 is, and they will say either Jigglypuff or Ness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember an interview where Sakurai stated that Jigglypuff was put in as a WTF character of sorts, I can't find a link (since it was over 10 years ago) but someone else may back me up on that. Who was a WTF character in melee then? Mr. Game & Watch may have represented an era of games before Mario, but by that logic, you can assign a character to represent each era of consoles. GaW for before NES, IC for NES, Yoshi for the SNES, Pikachu for the GB and GBA, Sheik for the N64, Lucario for the DS/DSi and Olimar for the GC. So, clearly, all of these are WTF characters, they represent a certain era, and of course, they have to be in. This also means that Shulk must get in in order to represent the Wii. I am also well aware of R.O.B's importance to gaming history, and of course he more than deserves to be in smash, but I could type up a list of 15 characters or so (probably) that likewise deserve to be in smash. R.O.B as an item would have been absolutely fine, of course a playable character is even better, but it's quite simply a peripheral, never controlled in-game before, and that is quite simply why he is designated as a WTF character.

Then there's Joey, who.....just has a meme outside of Japan. That's literally it.
Ok, so, Joey has a meme. I suppose, if you are that dead set about him not being recurring, then he could rep gen 2, the same reason Scizor or Heracross is requested (somewhat). He has quite a bit of bearing on gen 2, being the first trainer you ever battle on your journey, and they actually put some thought into his name, Joey obviously being a young kangaroo, meaning they wanted him to have some importance. Unless, of course, that is a coincedence as well!
 
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I said, since Lance's iconic pokemon is in fact Dragonite, then the memes that Dragonite is in and Lance is not also refer to him (although they actually don't, but by your logic they do.) Rattata on his own obviously isn't memetic status, but there are a few that don't refer to Joey's, such as this one:
Image is broken.
Also, "by my logic"? Do you not know the most known Dragonite meme?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe9O90cD80 At 0:42, look who it is. Certainly not Joey. He's not swag enough to have 3 Dragonites.
The only other Dragonite meme I have found is Dragonite Dad (which is so lame, which explains why I have not heard of it before). That one doesn't have Lance, but it is hardly iconic as a meme.

Ash is based off Red, Gary off blue/green. This does not mean that something referring to one character also refers to the other. On a much larger scale than memes, is Red's inclusion in brawl is also Ash's inclusion. Now, we all know this is impossible (I hope) since he is 4th party, so on a smaller scale, memes referring to Gary don't refer to Blue/Green. They go 2 on 2 with eachother. What part of this looks like blue?
Ash is owned by Nintendo, so your logic falls there. Also, I don't care what Super Smash Bros. Crusade say, "4th Party" is a non-existant term.
And the image here fails, as this is the full comic it comes from: http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/146/2/9/My_tribute___Scyther_can__t_fly_by_rounindx.jpg
That's Blue, not Gary.
Either way, the two look exactly the same, unlike Ash and Red. The fact they look exactly the same means that people often associate Blue with Gary. Hell, the meme often refers to the games and Blue (as Gary) such as that image with Blue riding a Spearow.

Wait... it sounds like you think I was actually trying to justify Burgh in smash, of course I wasn't! That would be as silly as Altaria getting into smash, who, by the way, is more likely than Lt. Surge. There are a couple of examples that could mean that being recent helps (aside from retros obviously), but I'm far from a firm believer in it.
You cannot claim Altaria is more likely. 0 is not a greater number than 0. (As in, both have no chance).
Being recent is not a defining factor. Never has been, never will. Everyone in Smash that people try to apply the "recent" argument all have other qualities that contributed far more.

I didn't know about Jigglypuff being 2nd (The majority of polls I saw had mewtwo second, and sometimes even Jigglypuff down at 20 or so) but if there was a WTF character in SSB64, and there was, it'll be Jigglypuff. Ask a group of people who they think the WTF character in super smash bros. 64 is, and they will say either Jigglypuff or Ness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember an interview where Sakurai stated that Jigglypuff was put in as a WTF character of sorts, I can't find a link (since it was over 10 years ago) but someone else may back me up on that. Who was a WTF character in melee then? Mr. Game & Watch may have represented an era of games before Mario, but by that logic, you can assign a character to represent each era of consoles. GaW for before NES, IC for NES, Yoshi for the SNES, Pikachu for the GB and GBA, Sheik for the N64, Lucario for the DS/DSi and Olimar for the GC. So, clearly, all of these are WTF characters, they represent a certain era, and of course, they have to be in. This also means that Shulk must get in in order to represent the Wii. I am also well aware of R.O.B's importance to gaming history, and of course he more than deserves to be in smash, but I could type up a list of 15 characters or so (probably) that likewise deserve to be in smash. R.O.B as an item would have been absolutely fine, of course a playable character is even better, but it's quite simply a peripheral, never controlled in-game before, and that is quite simply why he is designated as a WTF character.
Try harder.
I said AT THE TIME. IN JAPAN. Of course Jigglypuff is not 2nd place now outside of it (or even in it. Hell, Pikachu is not even 1st anymore.).

Also, Sakurai said he added Jigglypuff as a joke character (which is obvious, given how she's very light, has limited range, a KILLER joke attack (although it was nerfed in Brawl), and would die when its shield breaks), not a "WTF" character. Joke characters are not "WTF" characters (which is a fan term, btw).

Just because a group of people say that Jigglypuff is a "WTF" doesn't make it true. If anything, the true "WTF" was Captain Falcon, solely for the reason that all he ever did was drive a car in-game. But even he had his reasons that involve Smash's prototype.

Not every game HAS TO HAVE a "WTF", nor did I say G&W wasn't one. What a "WTF" is, is simply someone you didn't expect and makes you go "WTF?" when you first see them. Game & Watch fits that bill, as I highly doubt anyone was expecting him. However, he wasn't added to be a "WTF". He was added to represent a highly successful era in Nintendo's history (and honor the late Gunpei Yokoi, though I don't know how accurate that is).

And stop twisting the "logic", as you suck at it. Your example is completely asinine, as I never said that "WTF"s represent eras, I never said that there is a character to represent each console, and I never said G&W wasn't a "WTF". I said being a representation of an old successful era prior to even Mario applied to why G&W was included, which goes against Joey only having a meme and to be added to be a "WTF".

Again, I never said R.O.B. WASN'T a "WTF". I said that he has his reasons for being included that Joey simply does not compare to. R.O.B. was not added to be a "WTF", but he is one because his inclusion was unexpected; especially after the R.O.B. Squad were shown as enemies in the SSE.
Brawl has its share of WTFs
-Pokemon Trainer (Who honestly expected this, let alone the gimmick he has?)
-Snake (Being non-Nintendo, no one saw this coming when it did. Sonic won't be included in this list, as people were heavily expecting him once Snake was announced.)
-R.O.B. (Thought to have been discomfirmed by the R.O.B. Squad)
-Wolf (Despite being a popular and iconic character to the Star Fox franchise, people were actually expecting Krystal before him for some reason. :laugh:)
-Olimar (Mileage May Vary on this one, though from what I understand, people weren't really expecting him to work as a fighter and assumed he'd be an Assist.)

Ok, so, Joey has a meme. I suppose, if you are that dead set about him not being recurring, then he could rep gen 2, the same reason Scizor or Heracross is requested (somewhat). He has quite a bit of bearing on gen 2, being the first trainer you ever battle on your journey, and they actually put some thought into his name, Joey obviously being a young kangaroo, meaning they wanted him to have some importance. Unless, of course, that is a coincedence as well!
Yes, because the best way to represent Gen 2 is to have a weak trainer that uses a Gen 1 Pokemon. GENIUS. :rolleyes:
And yes, the name is coincidence too. You look WAY too hard into these things. Joey is just a stock name. That's all it ever is.
 

jigglover

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I'm wondering why we're even arguing over a character who chances are won't get in... Besides, you can't say Altaria wouldn't be awesome in smash, and if you do then you're lying! :) :facepalm: The embarassing thing is that I thought that that character in the picture was Gary, but it is well-known that red is based off ash and Gary Motherf***ing Oak off blue, they just got the detail better with Gary in the anime! :/ I'm actually sad that people expected the staff-wielding cat in smash before a bad-*** wolf though... :(
I like the comic though! :D

On another note, do you have any critique on the move-sets in the OP (and I'll just admit that you win if you want, I know when to quit).
 
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