Lucario BBR Matchup Chart Panel

BBR Lucario Matchup Chart Panel
Hey everyone, I’m Red Ryu and will be leading your character’s panel for the BBR Match-Up Chart v3. The thread detailing panel leaders, as well as other various information about the project, can be found here.

The current panelists for this panel are:
Red Ryu
John12346

We are limited to five panelists for this project, and are looking for active and knowledgeable members of the character community to help fill our remaining openings. If you would like to join the panel for this character, please make a post demonstrating your interest in this thread, along with what would make you a desirable panelist. Keep in mind that debating skills are important for all panel members, and those with poor behavior will be ejected from the project if complaints arise.

If you have any questions or concerns regarding this panel or its activities, feel free to post them in this thread. You may also PM me or Ish if you would rather speak to one of us privately. Panelist selections will be finalized in a week or two, at which point we will begin discussing which match-ups to change in the panelist subforum.

I'd be interested!

I may have been in the scene for less then a year but over time I have learned a lot about Lucario and facing other characters. I may not be as smart or knowledgeable as the rest of you guys but I feel this may be a great way to learn more about this character and his MU's. My debating skills are not perfect buuuuuut it has gotten better and I don't get angry about losing to a debate anymore but it has gotten better over time and I'd be willing to debate with one of you guys as a test, I feel I'm a decent debater as of now.

My desire is to join in on this learn more and contribute to the Lucario boards and put my current knowledge to the test.

I should make my post longer lol.

Sunnysunny asked me to.

If you guys reallllyyyyyyy need it I'll be happy to help.

Full analysis of Air Walk (I really should've named it "Walking the Dog"), figuring out some numbers, spent years studying the character, if you guys want something more formally written up I'll do it.

Just kinda meh about BBR stuff, applied two times to that with a wide list of qualifications and got rejected.

I'll apply.

I'm a top player in colorado (lol)

I've been here for years, theorycrafted lucario things a lot

I've helped out with matchups before

probably one of the best lucarios left ;-;

Myth when is the last time you played Brawl wifi or not?

Also if you know other Lucario who are notable and would be interested let me know.

Trela should be in this.

He quit, though still worth asking.

I'll ask but he may ignore me lol.

I'll try though.

EDIT: I asked so lets wait and see.

Trela is good and stuff, but he wasn't even active on the boards when he was around. I'll endorse Myth.

He was very helpful to the Lucario panel in the BBR last time, it's just idk if he wants to dedicate to it again.

Steam wants to be very helpful!

: D

I haven't played in ages, but if you want a friendly spar to see how rusty I am I'll be happy to indulge...

The current panelists for this panel are:
Red Ryu
John12346
SunnySunny
Steam

~

This is what it is so far it's just the last spot that I'm delving over.

Btw Steam Rengar super fun.

I don't think I would be so bold as to outright apply for one of these positions, but perhaps Sunny will endorse me, considering that he initially encouraged me to take interest.

I am not currently active in the high-level tournament scene, have not visited these boards for nearly as long as some of you, and have little personal pro experience in many match-ups that would likely be useful.

On the other hand, I have logged a ridiculous amount of hours playing every character, analyzing their movesets, testing AT's, and I consider Lucario to be my one and only main (especially in tournament). I have been very active on the Lucario boards since I registered with this site, analyzing videos for people who post them, answering questions about matchups and moves, listing options in various scenarios for consideration, and even writing up an (as of yet, incomplete) beginner's guide of my own.

I spent the vast majority of last summer traveling around Florida with some of the region's best players in order to attend tournaments, and learned a great deal about the game from people such as Esam, NickRiddle, MVD, Seibrik, Ryo, 8Bitman, and more. Since then, I've spent my free time at school setting up tournaments for my fraternity brothers and I to compete in, and I've consistently placed highly (4th-8th) with Lucario at the University of Florida's largest free-entry tournament.

I feel as though it would be overambitious and inappropriate for someone like me to ask to be trusted with the responsibilities of a position like this, but please consider asking for my input, keeping me in the loop, and allowing me to gain a better understanding of what goes on behind the scenes. Regardless, I plan to stay active on the boards for as long as I can, and will continue to do my best to help those involved as I have, or in any other way that I can.

I will apply for the last position on the Lucario panel.

-I have play lucario since 2008. This has allowed me to acquire a lot of niche knowledge about lucario MU's and also has allowed me to see lucario's metagame evolve.

-Before school started I was a Power Ranked player in Georgia. Marching band and school prevented me from being active in the tournament scene until very recently, but marching band is over now and I have free time! I attended WABA one of the largest regionals in brawl history. And last weekend I went to another large tournament at GA tech with 50+ people where I placed 13th in singles(bad seeding in everyone's opinion) and 2nd in doubles with 18 teams.

-I have started teaching a couple of players the basics of competitive smash now in my local scene and encouraged a few of them to regularly attend tournaments.

- I have seen every notable lucario match on YouTube and many non-notable matches and actively give criticism. This really helps me flesh out what lucario should and should not be doing.

- I am familiar enough with lucario's frame data to participate in higher level discussions.

Finally, I am always enthused to play the game at a higher level. I probably won't be MIA for any reason unless some major happens. I feel like the current MU chart represents lucario fairly well. The problem I see if justification. Sometimes I feel as if people agree that the MU number is correct, but for two different reasons. So write-ups will defiantly help clear that up.

I look forward to earning a position working and learning with a group of awesome lucario players.

DrSoussou said:

I don't think I would be so bold as to outright apply for one of these positions, but perhaps Sunny will endorse me, considering that he initially encouraged me to take interest.

I am not currently active in the high-level tournament scene, have not visited these boards for nearly as long as some of you, and have little personal pro experience in many match-ups that would likely be useful.

On the other hand, I have logged a ridiculous amount of hours playing every character, analyzing their movesets, testing AT's, and I consider Lucario to be my one and only main (especially in tournament). I have been very active on the Lucario boards since I registered with this site, analyzing videos for people who post them, answering questions about matchups and moves, listing options in various scenarios for consideration, and even writing up an (as of yet, incomplete) beginner's guide of my own.

I spent the vast majority of last summer traveling around Florida with some of the region's best players in order to attend tournaments, and learned a great deal about the game from people such as Esam, NickRiddle, MVD, Seibrik, Ryo, 8Bitman, and more. Since then, I've spent my free time at school setting up tournaments for my fraternity brothers and I to compete in, and I've consistently placed highly (4th-8th) with Lucario at the University of Florida's largest free-entry tournament.

I feel as though it would be overambitious and inappropriate for someone like me to ask to be trusted with the responsibilities of a position like this, but please consider asking for my input, keeping me in the loop, and allowing me to gain a better understanding of what goes on behind the scenes. Regardless, I plan to stay active on the boards for as long as I can, and will continue to do my best to help those involved as I have, or in any other way that I can.

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My name is Seibrik, and I approve this message.

DrSoussou will be getting the last spot, sorry too anyone else who wanted to come along but needed to be limited down.

If a spot opens up for one reason or another I will contact you for help, not the other way around.

Gets us a +1 in the MK MU guys

the point isn't to make lucario look like a better character, it's to give accurate ratios :I

most of the changes I think that need to be made are changes that make lucario's MU spread worse... lol.

one of the matchups I'd argue for is moving MK to -3.

but I don't feel super strongly about that because ultimately if that happened lucario would end up having a MK matchup worse than characters he actually does better against MK than. AKA I think a lot of characters should be worse against MK.

edit: in fact I'm gonna just post my opinion on lucario's matchups


-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

changes

(-2 to -3)

I don't feel super strongly about this one but only because I know it will make it seem like lucario does terrible against MK compared to the rest of the roster. Otherwise... if MK stands at ftilt range and plays patient, he simply shuts lucario down. Lucario only wins this matchup when MK frequently commits to unsafe options, when MK gets over aggressive, or when MK just gets outplayed very badly. in most high pressure tourney cases the MK usually will make more mistakes, which is what I think causes people to lose this matchup. basically, if MK is on point, lucario has no chance, but with each mistake MK makes, the matchup gets more and more in favor of lucario.

(-1 to -2)

I feel EXTREMELY strong about this one. Like honestly, I have no idea how this matchup got moved to only a -1. He is the prototypical counter to lucario, tons of damage, early killing, heavy weight that makes coming back from a stock down impossible, and can easily force trades with our hitboxes. Lucario does have juggles on snake, but snake has plenty of options to deal with that at the very least make lucario's life a lot harder. if this matchup truly is -1, then DK for example should be in our favor and D3 should be even, because each of those matchups is almost just like the snake matchup just a ton easier.

(-1 to -2)

I don't feel very strongly about this matchup, the only basis I make it a -2 on is the guranteed upsmash out of dthrow that no one does.... so lol. otherwise this matchup is a pretty solid -1.

(0 to -1)

Outside of aura, this guy completely obliterates us. Lasers wreck us, phantasm wrecks us, his jab wrecks us. most of the flow of the match will generally consist of us just getting dominated. thankfully he has a gimpable recovery and is highly susceptable to getting his face melted by aura, a point easy to get to because at a point you can just sit in shield and not die because his throws are garbage at high%.

(-1 to 0)

I personally don't feel very strongly about this one, but in my world this matchup is even to me... but I've personally always been really good against marth (never lost a set to one) so that probably skews it to me. in many ways marth shuts us down like MK can but the way he has to do it is much less safe. catching his landing can be quite easy and we can also kill marth at pretty low% if we have aura. the wild card in this matchup is tippers, eating a tipper fsmash at the edge at like 60% really really hurts.

(0 to +1)

While he has very lethal stuff on us, but due to our pressure and his traction, he's never going to land it except on a hard read. Seeing as we can zone him out quite effectively or just camp him, I think we have a slight but notable edge overall.

(0 to +1)

Overall an evenish matchup, but the grab release chaingrab we have on him really helps us. making it a +1 IMO

(+1 to +2)

we completely dump on bowser if we can get in on him, we can also camp him, we can also really really abuse his terrible shield. Bowser is heavy and kills semi reliably, but he just gets styled on waaaaay too hard on and off the stage for this to be a close matchup.

(+2 to +3)

I don't feel quite so strongly about this one... but samus can just never kill us if we're smart... like hardly ever. while she's annoying and can keep us out pretty well, it's definitely going to get to the point where she dies super fast from us. with risk reward being that bad for her and her not having anything overwhelming on us, I don't see what chance she really has in the matchup.

(+2 to +3)

Lucario was pretty much made to counter yoshi, yoshi has trouble killing as is but even then lucario counters the few kill moves yoshi had other than Double jump armor uair. we out camp him, generally out space him, and get some long strings of damage on him if we're not too predictable. he does have egg lay which is really good against us, but it just doesn't get him very far even if he does land it. that said, I still don't feel all that strongly that this matchup is that bad, but if I had to rate it I'd put it there.

Nah the MK match up is fine at -2. If as long as you can manage to stay above the stage you have a fighting chance.

The DDD MU needs to change to -2. That MU is stupid.
Yeah lucario will defiantly falling behind the metagame. We just don't have the character support at tournaments. Maybe one day out character will get some love one day.

-2:
-1:
-1/0:
0:
0/+1:
+1:
+2:

My thoughts, though nowadays I'm more concerned telling people how to play a MU over the ratio it is. Also I am a stupid optimist.

How do you guys figure Lucario loses/has a disadvantage against G&W?

^This is one that I've been thinking about a lot recently. It basically comes down to (and I'm not a frame data expert in the least) Lucario being a character whose ground game is full of slow startup but comparatively-little ending lag. G&W on the other hand, is all ending lag (comparatively) with VERY little startup on ANY of his moves. This gives him a very strong ground AND aerial game when played properly, and in his MU against us, an easy way to take priority over most of our moves.

Just looking at the two move-sets, you can also see a direct counter in G&W's bucket. Iirc, three fully-charged Aura Spheres at any Lucario % results in a 1-hit KO oil spill. Obv, this doesn't eliminate our AS completely, but it can be argued that it does eliminate BAS. Killing can also be tedious, but thankfully G&W is pretty light. He should actually be the lightest, since he has no mass (physics troll ).

Lucario is great at gimping average, and even sometimes above average recoveries, but that's also taken away to a certain degree by the invincibility on his trampoline-chute wtvr-the-**** up-B. He can't be FP CG'd, his Fsmash has a lasting hitbox that cancels many of our CQC options, and he DEFINITELY kills early.

This is one of the amateur MUs that I play most frequently, and recently my opponent has been able to beat me more and more. I still win 70% of the time, but now I have to actually try to combat these advantages. I prbly shouldn't have taught him how to beat me lol.

every time I predict a G&W ground move, and space an fsmash, and see it clash because G&W has dumb hitboxes, I cry a little inside.

my opinion on MK isn't really just theory, it's from playing both sides of the matchup against fishbait over the years, we both agree that if MK spaces properly and stays grounded lucario has no options.

oh yeah, DI bair up and towards GW, punish with dair almost every time.

MK makes me want to cry when in the hands of anyone who actually knows what they're doing. The ease with which he can gimp Lucario is my least favorite thing about the entire world of Nintendo.

Sunnysunny said:

That is something I need to do much more vs him.
I actually did all of this research after getting sent to losers by deliciousDave the first time I played him. =p

Your opinion on the MK MU's probably better then mine if you've been sparring with Fishybait. It's just sad to think that one of the most played characters might be +3 against ours assuming they play the MU right....Uhg.

Click to expand...

none of them really do though. even M2K still tried to just spam nado against trela lol.

if people were robots lucario would be like... solid mid tier, but it's really easy to choke against lucario and he punishes mistakes like that really hard, playing as or against him.

Sunnysunny said:

DrSousou's pretty much spot on.
Now although his moves have alot of shieldstun, they still have alot of cooldown. Meaning jumping out of shield to punish his stuff is the way to go. Atleast against certain moves. (Grab too, but he should never space that poorly vs you) His d-air is -5 on shield drop, but -12 if you jump Oos. Meaning you can punish with d-air really easily. As stupid as it sounds we cannot punish him with something like a jab. :I We are 1 frame short.

Learn to DI b-air btw. It's another move we can't punish unless it's spaced poorly and controls space VERY well in air to air situations, but we don't have to eat the whole thing with proper DI..

Click to expand...

One thing to watch out for when trying to DI his BAir is one who predicts you will do so and will try to land and DSmash you right as you DI out of it. I've had this happen to me on WiFi a few times... Not sure if every G&W does it at this point in the meta though.

You guys are probably gonna hate me for saying this (if FlameWaveK was still here), but... Air Walk and Shield DI. Unless you have hax shield DI you cannot grab him out of his DAir. (Also our Utilt starts at the 5th frame!) Your timing has to be absolutely perfect, but yeah according to the frame data you could technically grab him.

Like you said you could hit him out of his DAir potentially with our DAir, but that too at times good shield DI and then you can just Air Walk him.

G&W's shield sucks.

Our techroll distance is meh compared to a regular roll. If he hardreads you you're in trouble. Out of his Dthrow a regular get-up roll may be the safest option (just remember to DI away from him before you hit the ground for that little extra distance too!).

Don't be too stupid with rolling into his BAir.

If you're good at timing you can smack him with UAir before he smacks you with his DAir.

Always have a Sphere ready to go in case he fudges up on spacing his BAir.

Sunnysunny said:

Even if we do have time to shield his punishes it's not like we can punish him back. He gains control of the match once he gets us in his attack range. Horizontally atleast. Lucario's horizontal angled moves have slow start up in comparison to other characters, making it even harder to punish anything metaknight does. He has the frame data to pressure us very well. Its almost best just to get away from him and reset the situation. This can be kiiinda remedied by caring a FCAS on you and like, trying to get him to whiff so you can lob it at em, but it's still really dumb. You have to basically not let him touch you, make him whiff moves, or do unorthodox things to hit him at all.

...
-2 is fine, because we do tend to win by running away, making him whiff, doing unorthadox things, and getting alot of mileage offa human error.

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Lets say that we do shield we don't even need to punish right away. This is way oversimplified, but the point of the game is to not get knocked of the borders. Taking damage makes it easier for MK to knock us into a blast zone. As long as we minimize damage we should be alright as long as MK isn't trying to time us out. If he hits our shield just roll way. I guess worst case senario is that he reads it and maybe gets a grab or is able to temporarily get stage advantage, but I think that is a risk worth taking.

By nature unorthadox things aren't bad if anything we should be doing more unorthadox thing as long as they work. Baiting with Bair is pretty good in this match-up as long as its well-spaced. Btw Against most characters hitting shield is ussally a bad idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOPnX9WtsP4 (watch until 2:03)

I think this proves that lucario is a lot more viable on the ground then in the air vs. MK. Unless you get control on the ground then get MK into the you are destined to lose. And god forbid you try and fight Mk off the safety of the stage. I promise you that any Mk worth a grain of salt will shuttle loop you.

I have tons of experience vs. mid level GAW players in my region and I have to agree with myth that regular get-up roll is the safest option. You can tech roll for the mix-up, but as of now it isn't really mandatory. I have to say that the GAW MU is still probally -1 though. It is not where near impractical or unlikely that lucario will not get hit/ baited into anyone of GAWs killing moves. Fresh fair hurts a lot and in many situations there isn't much we can do about it. Even though GAW is light all the GAW I play regularly can bucket break which gives them a noticeable advantage. Then I agree with all the lucario advantages people have stated earlier.

Also I don't see why people think that lucario vs. DDD is -1. It is defiantly -2. Seriously people? We take ~30 from one grab. I guess no here has played 4GOD. Then trela still loss to atomsk pretty solidly. Come on give me some real explanation.

I should remake the MU discussion thread.

You could just rename this thread.