ROM5 Reaction

hungrybox · Nov 19, 2012

All I can say is I'm gonna go into Apex 2012 with more determination to win than I ever had.

Tournaments aren't supposed to be a mockery of sportsmanship, or a series of finger-pointing and exploitation. They're supposed to celebrate competitiveness and show respect for the best players.

I don't know what happened in Nanuet tonight, but I didn't like it. The sandbagging or the forfeiting or the bad taste in my mouth. Obviously I wasn't there, but looking back I really wish I went. At least I could have showed what a competitor is SUPPOSED to do in the FINALS of a tournament.

I celebrated an amazing set played by Unknown by posting his victory on facebook, only to find that he seemed to not even consider his opportunity to win his first big national in America.

Mew2King astonished me as usual with his skill, but then dissapointed me with his inability to control his emotions and his near-forfeiting stance.

For future tournaments:

PLEASE CLARIFY THE STAGE RULES

and

MAKE VOLUNTARY FORFEITING ILLEGAL.

and

NO MORE SPLITTING.

I don't mean to bash anyone, i'm just sharing thoughts.

Shadic · Nov 19, 2012

Forfeiting is fine, but when they do, they can't take it back.

JKJ · Nov 19, 2012

Preach, brother. Preach.

leffen · Nov 19, 2012

I've previously had respect for KK, never had any for Unknown (controller johns lol) and M2K (you know why) but this just made me ****ing sick of all off them.

If they actually split, which is very likely and its of course gonna be denied.., I honestly wanna see all three players get banned from Apex. They simply made a shame out of our entire community, with 3700 people watching... >_>

clowsui · Nov 19, 2012

David, I love you as someone who knows a lot about the game. I like you as a person too. And I think you have a ton of player potential and have demonstrated it well.

Unknown, you too, though I haven't talked to you at all.

So from a fan's perspective, this was highly disappointing. I can't believe that the players I admire so much and I want to admire so much did something that is so far from admirable. Really. This also upsets me on a TO'ing level. As a TO I think it's really great that big names bring hype to a tournament and I think that's it's great that I can make relationships with these big names and help them build their name. This action of splitting and throwing finals just goes to destroy that whole idea of a reputation not only for yourself but also for future great players.

I hate to say this, but I don't believe you two or M2K deserve to play at APEX.

UltiMario · Nov 19, 2012

They shouldn't have convinced M2K to play against Hax. Just let him forfeit.

This tourney could've actually had a few decent games after that point.

It would've been standard M2K johns forfeits near the end fare, but it wouldn't have been this damned embarrassing.

Battlecow · Nov 19, 2012

hbox for president

yeah I honestly expected better from KK. Unknown was always kind of a ***** and m2k was always more than just "kind of" a *****

Dan Salvato · Nov 19, 2012

Pot splitting is a violation of conduct which is equivalent to that of cheating. You are unfairly manipulating the stakes. This should be grounds for a ban.

We need to not excuse top players and treat conduct violation like any other competitive community does. In the end it's up to the TOs, but I urge you to make proper judgment regarding players who readily violate tournament conduct. Player skill/fame makes no difference, as there are no excuses.

ph00tbag · Nov 19, 2012

Seeing as ROM5 was apparently a Road to Apex tournament, I see no reason any player who participated in the split shouldn't be barred from entering Apex 2013. In any other sport, this is what happens with bracket manipulation. Smash shouldn't be any different.

crawlshots · Nov 19, 2012

I heard someone mention having printouts of the ruleset. Could be helpful to have them on hand.

And then penalizing the "perpetrators" by forcing them to play low-tiers at apex

Deleted member · Nov 19, 2012

personally i think splitting is acceptable; if you have the ability to intentionally lose (a STRICT TACTICAL DISADVATAGE) and still achieve your goals, it is on the remaining player base to invalidate this strategy. all IMO.

that said, I don't know what happened at rom, this is just my vanilla opinion on splitting. it's good to have multiple viewpoints on such a topic.

leffen · Nov 19, 2012

they could easily be banned for just manipulating the seeding points, not to mention anything else

KanyeRest · Nov 19, 2012

<3 you know i got your back juan

and really, it hurts to see that stream getting almost 4k viewers and no hype.

Doser · Nov 19, 2012

Give the points and money to the people below the top 3, eggm hax etc.

JTsm · Nov 19, 2012

Doser said:
Give the points and money to the people below the top 3, eggm hax etc.

This time 1000000000000000000000000000

Eggm, Hax and DJ and etc displayed true competitive smash. Top 3 can just be banned for all future tournaments as well.

crawlshots · Nov 19, 2012

Has there ever been a penalty for splitting in smash tournaments? (I don't know.) Realistically, despite how right it sounds, it wouldn't make sense to suddenly implement a penalty for something that happens often, especially AFTER the fact. I think those of us who are adamant about seeing consequences for those three players are responding mostly to our frustration to how the situation played out... the drama involved.

Crusayer · Nov 19, 2012

Only one I remember was M2K's incident with MLG.

Battlecow · Nov 19, 2012

yeah I don't think you can really ban them when splitting has always been legal. Not that I wouldn't like to.

One thing they do have to do is what they should've done about ten years ago: Ban splitting. So ****ing sick of watching a tourney up to WF's and then realizing that the matches that are actually interesting don't exist.

Ripple · Nov 19, 2012

splitting would be fine if there were only competitors, but there are thousands of fans wanting a show and you are robbing them of that.

Doser · Nov 19, 2012

What would be wrong with making a rule saying "All splitting is now grounds for removal from the tournament and being banned from future tournaments"

Sure it wouldn't be retroactive, but it would stop a lot of future finals from being like rom 5's and would be a big step towards making smash more legitimate.

Deleted member · Nov 19, 2012

Ripple said:
splitting would be fine if there were only competitors, but there are thousands of fans wanting a show and you are robbing them of that.

i wasn't aware that the fans were entitled to a show, paying nothing and being 100% not involved.

all this time i thought the point of entering a tournament for money was to win more money.

MasterShake · Nov 19, 2012

Umbreon said:
all this time i thought the point of entering a tournament for money was to win more money.

It really shouldn't be, there are much much better ways of earning money than playing children's sumo.

crawlshots · Nov 19, 2012

Doser said:
What would be wrong with making a rule saying "All splitting is now grounds for removal from the tournament and being banned from future tournaments"

Sure it wouldn't be retroactive, but it would stop a lot of future finals from being like rom 5's and would be a big step towards making smash more legitimate.

Yeah, making a rule for future tournaments would be great.

Making one now that applies to a tournament that's already happened is weird to me in principle.

Fuzzyness · Nov 19, 2012

hungrybox I really respect your post but we need to refrain from making these threads, this should've been posted in the tournament / results thread

I'm personally not gonna close this / delete it myself but I'm sure you know

the boards is full of drama right now and this isn't helping,

can people please use the tournament/results thread for this

AppleAppleAZ · Nov 19, 2012

Umbreon said:
i wasn't aware that the fans were entitled to a show, paying nothing and being 100% not involved.

all this time i thought the point of entering a tournament for money was to win more money.

Well yeah, the players themselves shouldn't be condemned for splitting as long as it doesn't affect the quality of the tournament. However, this was a big blow to a community that wants to grow. If there were any randoms in the stream they sure as hell wouldn't want to be a part of the community on display tonight. Evo consideration will most likely take a hit too.

From my perspective, big regionals/streams like this usually are to show why we love the game and to show competition at it's highest level with the best players around (the money involved is icing).

Edit: sorry fuzzyness. I was typing this out while that was posted

Doser · Nov 19, 2012

Umbreon said:
all this time i thought the point of entering a tournament for money was to win more money.

Sure you're trying to win the tournament, but few if any people play smash for the money. Furthermore even if they are trying to get more money, they need to abide by the ethics of competitions. I don't know of any other community that would tolerate splitting in a major tournament. It's not right, and it's a degenerate way of competing.

The fans aren't "entitled" to a good show, but at the same time it's the fans that expand melee and get it into more venues. You can't pretend that having tournaments that are run well (i.e. no splitting, no forfeiting, no overly long button checks and disrespecting the to in general) would somehow prevent players from winning.

It would only help the competitors and the viewers if tournaments didn't have the bull**** that was at ROM5.

Deleted member · Nov 19, 2012

Doser said:
Sure you're trying to win the tournament, but few if any people play smash for the money. Furthermore even if they are trying to get more money, they need to abide by the ethics of competitions. I don't know of any other community that would tolerate splitting in a major tournament. It's not right, and it's a degenerate way of competing.

The fans aren't "entitled" to a good show, but at the same time it's the fans that expand melee and get it into more venues. You can't pretend that having tournaments that are run well (i.e. no splitting, no forfeiting, no overly long button checks and disrespecting the to in general) would somehow prevent players from winning.

It would only help the competitors and the viewers if tournaments didn't have the bull**** that was at ROM5.

IIRC we operate tournaments "for us" and not potential players.

I agree with you on every front except the playing by the ethics portion of it. Unless an action here taken was specifically disallowed by the rules, it was de facto allowed and no ethical violation has been made as the TOs see it. If this is not the case, the rules should be mended, but in this case it's still allowed. Specifically, if splitting was not banned at this tournament, no move to punish the players can be reasonably made, as the players would have no reason to think that this behavior was unacceptable. outlining specific behaviors is why rule sets exist to begin with.

edit: if splitting is explicitly banned, then yes punish them of course.

Fuzzyness · Nov 19, 2012

please can we move all rom5 discussion into the tournament / results thread

1000g2g3g4g800999 · Nov 19, 2012

clowsui said:
David, I love you as someone who knows a lot about the game. I like you as a person too. And I think you have a ton of player potential and have demonstrated it well.

Unknown, you too, though I haven't talked to you at all.

So from a fan's perspective, this was highly disappointing. I can't believe that the players I admire so much and I want to admire so much did something that is so far from admirable. Really. This also upsets me on a TO'ing level. As a TO I think it's really great that big names bring hype to a tournament and I think that's it's great that I can make relationships with these big names and help them build their name. This action of splitting and throwing finals just goes to destroy that whole idea of a reputation not only for yourself but also for future great players.

I hate to say this, but I don't believe you two or M2K deserve to play at APEX.

I have the perfect punishment for KK. Deny any future tempbans on him he requests.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Nov 19, 2012

I'm keeping this one open for the melee discussion on RoM and anything related to splitting, keep it civil though.

Fuzzyness · Nov 19, 2012

thanks Red Ryu

if anyone makes another RoM discussion thread they will be infracted

continue to discuss here guys

Vinylic. · Nov 19, 2012

Thanks, ryu. And I also thank fly for responding.

Basically agreeing to the post below, I personally want penalties like red card and yellow cards back here.
I don't want to see another tournament going as equally or more worse than now.

Jockmaster · Nov 19, 2012

I truly believe that, because of the nature of what happened today, KK, Unknown, and M2K should be banned from Apex

As sad as it makes me to say that (especially with KK) I really think that embarrassing the community like that and ruining a huge event for many people shouldn't go unpunished.

****, I'm to the point where I think Jason should be put on "probation" and banned from all nationals period if he keeps up the dramatic forfeiting ****

Mahone · Nov 19, 2012

For some indescribable reason i don't think kk should be punished at all...

maybe its love

Twinkles · Nov 19, 2012

I liked the idea someone had of posting tournament rules around the tournament.

Also, should there be a rule against splitting after this tournament? I think so. People can get away with splitting at small locals, but I don't think this **** should fly at a tournament of this size and importance.

Vinylic. · Nov 19, 2012

It's about time we do just that, and make it strict too.

Lovage · Nov 19, 2012

splittings fine as long as u try

unknown tried to forfeit his bo5 with KK after the first 2 stocks of the first match

that's just on a whole nother level lol

Seartu · Nov 19, 2012

Umbreon said:
i wasn't aware that the fans were entitled to a show, paying nothing and being 100% not involved.

all this time i thought the point of entering a tournament for money was to win more money.

I go to a school that plays athletics in Division II. We're not really good at anything but about 80% of attendees are students. They pay nothing. There's not much money involved at that level even for teams who perform well in their postseason tournaments. But there are still referrees who aside from enforcing rules also promote good sportsmanship and conduct.

This is because it's the right thing to do Umbreon. No group or community is going to grow if people are acting unethically. I'd like to be able to say that you're entitled to your opinion, but I just don't get your attitude.

Posts like this, and referring to our community as a "joke" just isn't fair. I don't want to be mean but you come off as very narrow-minded.

I'm not very good at Melee, and I don't have the resources to travel outside of my own region but much of my motivation to improve and work harder would be diminished if there weren't streams and hype matches between incredible players fighting for something on the line.

If you want the melee community to stagnate than that's your prerogative although it certainley isn't the most chivalrous goal. If you want to growth and prosperity than maybe consider that what's most profitable right now may not be what's best.

strawhats · Nov 19, 2012

Jockmaster said:
I truly believe that, because of the nature of what happened today, KK, Unknown, and M2K should be banned from Apex

As sad as it makes me to say that (especially with KK) I really think that embarrassing the community like that and ruining a huge event for many people shouldn't go unpunished.

****, I'm to the point where I think Jason should be put on "probation" and banned from all nationals period if he keeps up the dramatic forfeiting ****

to me it doesn't seem as detrimental for m2k seeing as he plays brawl as well, and probably came to RoM on a limb, since he's going back to school now(which is why he hasn't gone to the last few tournaments) as for kk and unknown...I don't know (it pains me to even think that they should be banned from Apex)

#HBC | Red Ryu · Nov 19, 2012

On second thought, take the discussion over to This thread.

ROM5 Reaction

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